RotRL Gestalt with Two Players

[SorenKnight]

So I'm starting a RotRL campaign with just two PCs and I decided to balance it by giving them gestalt. How well will this work? They worn't have the action economy of four players, and one is looking at Fighter//Magus, the other at Sorcerer//Rogue? are there any specific fights I should watch out for or class roles that might be necessary that they don't have available?

Please spoiler box any RotRL spoilers just in case one of them wanders in, and thank you!:smallsmile:

[Jack_Simth]

So I'm starting a RotRL campaign with just two PCs and I decided to balance it by giving them gestalt. How well will this work? They worn't have the action economy of four players, and one is looking at Fighter//Magus, the other at Sorcerer//Rogue? are there any specific fights I should watch out for or class roles that might be necessary that they don't have available?

Please spoiler box any RotRL spoilers just in case one of them wanders in, and thank you!:smallsmile:

One of the ways to pull that off more readily would be to coordinate builds. If everyone ends up with a combat-capable animal companion (whether that's through the Druid class, the right mystery & revelation as an oracle, the animal domain as a cleric - this one needs Boon Companion - or similar), and a few feats to boost it, it'll help with the action economy problems; Summoners can do pretty well for similar reasons. If you have, say, a Rogue//Druid and a Wizard//Oracle (Lunar, taking Primal Companion), then you've got all party roles covered (Healing? Check; Skillmonkey? Check; Arcanist? Check; Melee? Check).

[Florian]

I tend towards Paladin//Summoner and Cleric//Spiritualist for duoing an AP.

[CGNefarious]

I say screw the roles and let them have fun. If they come up against something that is harder to overcome without the specified role they are missing, then all the more power to them when they make their way through it anyway. As long as at least one of them can take damage in melee and one can deal damage at range, then they can technically get through any campaign.

To make it easier on them, just make sure they have access to a fairly reliable source of healing. And maybe give them some better stats to partially make up for their lack of actions compared to normal. My group normally does double HP at first level. This could be useful with only two people.

As for difficult fights to watch out for

The quasit is always a tough one no matter how many PCs there are. That fight will likely need adjusting.

Good luck on your campaign. I hope it all goes well.

[SorenKnight]

One of the ways to pull that off more readily would be to coordinate builds. If everyone ends up with a combat-capable animal companion (whether that's through the Druid class, the right mystery & revelation as an oracle, the animal domain as a cleric - this one needs Boon Companion - or similar), and a few feats to boost it, it'll help with the action economy problems; Summoners can do pretty well for similar reasons. If you have, say, a Rogue//Druid and a Wizard//Oracle (Lunar, taking Primal Companion), then you've got all party roles covered (Healing? Check; Skillmonkey? Check; Arcanist? Check; Melee? Check).

I tend towards Paladin//Summoner and Cleric//Spiritualist for duoing an AP.


Either of these would be good ideas, but both of my players already have character concepts they want and I'm more focused on making what they want work. Advice on how to adjust for the party I have is what I'm looking for, not advice on what the best party would be. I apologize if I was unclear.:smallredface:


I say screw the roles and let them have fun.

Fun is always the highest priority.

I had heard about the quasit, what changes would you recommend? I also remember someone saying something about one of the lamia sisters though I can't remember which one.


How big of a deal do you think action economy is going to be? I had the thought of giving each of them two turns each, one at their initiative and one at their initiative minus ten, so they would have the same number of turns as a four man party, but I'm not sure how well that would work.

[Florian]

Either of these would be good ideas, but both of my players already have character concepts they want and I'm more focused on making what they want work. Advice on how to adjust for the party I have is what I'm looking for, not advice on what the best party would be. I apologize if I was unclear.:smallredface:

Advice on this is simple: Never have more combatants than characters.

[SorenKnight]

Advice on this is simple: Never have more combatants than characters.

That might be for the best, but I'd rather run the path with as little alteration as possible. What to you think of the two turns for the PCs idea I mentioned above? Each PC would get a turn at the initiative they rolled, then another at the spot where they would have gone if they had rolled ten lower on their initiative check. I think that would bring them up to about the same action economy as a standard party.

[Florian]

That might be for the best, but I'd rather run the path with as little alteration as possible. What to you think of the two turns for the PCs idea I mentioned above? Each PC would get a turn at the initiative they rolled, then another at the spot where they would have gone if they had rolled ten lower on their initiative check. I think that would bring them up to about the same action economy as a standard party.

It won´t help that much.

Look at it: Your players created characters that need to enter melee. That´s fine. In a regular group, the front liners defend the casters and all that. But that means more hp damage than they can handle with no in-combat healing in sight. Later on, attribute damage will hit double hard because of that, too.
Second problem has to do with AoO and critical hits, because these two factors will also stack up in disfavor of the two gestalt characters

So either you help them create very high synergy characters to counter that, or you drop the named stuff from the game, ability damage/drain, AoO, crits.

[CockroachTeaParty]

The last group I ran through RotRL eventually got eroded down to three players; they picked up a cohort with some healing abilities and were pretty much fine, but this didn't happen until halfway through chapter 3.

I suggest either encouraging one of them to take up a healing class with one side of their gestalt, or else really dial back the challenge at least until they've got some levels under their belt; I'd conservatively suggest waiting to see if they can get through the first two chapters. Chapter 3 gets considerably easier for anyone with half a brain, so you can probably take the kiddy gloves off by about that point.

If you don't feel like reworking encounters for an easier challenge, maybe consider letting NPCs like Ameiko or Shalelu accompany them for the early levels; I believe both of them can heal or at the very least use a wand of CLW.

[SorenKnight]

It won´t help that much.

Look at it: Your players created characters that need to enter melee. That´s fine. In a regular group, the front liners defend the casters and all that. But that means more hp damage than they can handle with no in-combat healing in sight. Later on, attribute damage will hit double hard because of that, too.
Second problem has to do with AoO and critical hits, because these two factors will also stack up in disfavor of the two gestalt characters.


Sorcerer//Rogue?

Your right about the magus, but why does a Sorcerer//Rogue need to enter melee? Correct me if I'm wrong, but sneak attack can apply to ranged touch attack spells, right? Maybe if he chooses something different that'll change, but as is I'm pretty sure he's very much the ranged devastation type.


The last group I ran through RotRL eventually got eroded down to three players; they picked up a cohort with some healing abilities and were pretty much fine, but this didn't happen until halfway through chapter 3.

I suggest either encouraging one of them to take up a healing class with one side of their gestalt, or else really dial back the challenge at least until they've got some levels under their belt; I'd conservatively suggest waiting to see if they can get through the first two chapters. Chapter 3 gets considerably easier for anyone with half a brain, so you can probably take the kiddy gloves off by about that point.

If you don't feel like reworking encounters for an easier challenge, maybe consider letting NPCs like Ameiko or Shalelu accompany them for the early levels; I believe both of them can heal or at the very least use a wand of CLW.

The sorcerer isn't really sure about the other half of his gestalt, so I'll ask him about healing classes. If he doesn't want to do that, then I'll throw in some kind of wondrous healing item that functions as a wand of cure light wounds, but without the UMD checks. The idea being by the time it runs out of charges they'll have enough ranks in UMD to not need it. Do you think that would work?


Nevermind, the sorcerer looks like he's ditching the character and going for a cleric//?? instead. So what other classes do you think would go well with that?

[Jack_Simth]

Nevermind, the sorcerer looks like he's ditching the character and going for a cleric//?? instead. So what other classes do you think would go well with that?
Something with a lot of skill points. You're liable to need perception, at a minimum, but Disable Device and Stealth tend to be handy as well. An extra body or two really would be useful due to action economy issues... if he goes Animal Domain with Boon Companion, then he can grab Investigator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator) for the other side.

[Florian]

Your right about the magus, but why does a Sorcerer//Rogue need to enter melee? Correct me if I'm wrong, but sneak attack can apply to ranged touch attack spells, right? Maybe if he chooses something different that'll change, but as is I'm pretty sure he's very much the ranged devastation type.

Nevermind, the sorcerer looks like he's ditching the character and going for a cleric//?? instead. So what other classes do you think would go well with that?

SA is limited to a 30 ft. range. You know, the range a basic move or charge action can take the average human being. That is, for all practical purposes, melee range.

Cleric goes well with Spiritualist for added scouting and the companion, or you can do a fine Cleric//Warpriest and simply hammer away at stuff. Boring, but highly efficient.

[SorenKnight]

SA is limited to a 30 ft. range. You know, the range a basic move or charge action can take the average human being. That is, for all practical purposes, melee range.
Okay, that makes sense. But there is a pretty big difference between standing next to someone (and getting full attacked) and being thirty feat away and getting charged. And by the time they'll be fighting things with thirty feet reach he'd be able to afford sniper's goggles. A moot point now, though.


Cleric goes well with Spiritualist for added scouting and the companion, or you can do a fine Cleric//Warpriest and simply hammer away at stuff. Boring, but highly efficient.

He was thinking about Warpriest, but I steered him away from it because it shares a spell list with cleric. I'll mention spiritualist when I get home.

[Florian]

Okay, that makes sense. But there is a pretty big difference between standing next to someone (and getting full attacked) and being thirty feat away and getting charged. And by the time they'll be fighting things with thirty feet reach he'd be able to afford sniper's goggles. A moot point now, though.

There´s a bit more to it. Compare a weapon user and full attack w. SA to a caster with one ranged touch spell to deal the SA. In most cases, the weapon user will deal a heap of SA damage and will mostly be build for re-stealth to rinse and repeat. Shuriken Ninja are build around that concept.


He was thinking about Warpriest, but I steered him away from it because it shares a spell list with cleric. I'll mention spiritualist when I get home.

The shared spell list is actually a pretty good boon. You make the Warpriest be the "active part" for using Fervor and keep the more utility and out of combat spells to the clerics "passive" side of things. With Channel Smite and Quicken Blessing, you can actually wade into combat and gleefully deliver the pain.

Cleric//Spiritualist is interesting because you can either have an active Companion or use Bonded Manifestation to buff yourself or go into scout mode. On the in-combat-healing side of things, it can deliver touch spells so simply park it along the other character and cure away.
An Anger Phantom could also be kitted out with the Ancestral Lineage feat chain to function as an off-healer (Celestial bloodline) or pretty hefty damage dealer (Orc bloodline). As the Phantom is intelligent and gains skills on its own, its also good for tackling tasks the two characters are not equipped for, like Survival. (TWFing Kukris makes a good melee Spiritualist)

[SorenKnight]

The Cleric player is going to go Cleric//Oracle.

[Florian]

The Cleric player is going to go Cleric//Oracle.

Nice. Domains and Mysteries?

[Jack_Simth]

Nice. Domains and Mysteries?

... could get two animal companions doing that, perhaps; Lunar mystery and Animal domain.... would clog up combat with just that player's turn, though, which may be a problem.

[Florian]

... could get two animal companions doing that, perhaps; Lunar mystery and Animal domain.... would clog up combat with just that player's turn, though, which may be a problem.

Considering the AP, I´d go H-Elf with Belial as deity and Darkness and Rage domain as well as the Darkness mystery. Smite and Rage (with Clarity) work well on the regular melee side of things, while Darkness is pretty flexible for casters.

[SorenKnight]

Nice. Domains and Mysteries?

Probably Life mystery, I don't now about the rest, he hasn't really done much more character creation than class/race.


... could get two animal companions doing that, perhaps; Lunar mystery and Animal domain.... would clog up combat with just that player's turn, though, which may be a problem.

A good idea maybe, but the last thing this player needs is more turns. Last campaign he played a TWFing ranger and he took ages for his turns. I dread to think about how long it would take him to do three.


Considering the AP, I´d go H-Elf with Belial as deity and Darkness and Rage domain as well as the Darkness mystery. Smite and Rage (with Clarity) work well on the regular melee side of things, while Darkness is pretty flexible for casters.

He's human. Its about the only part of the build that he has down, aside from the class.

It might be a while before we do anymore work on his character because its finals week at my school.

[Honest Tiefling]

Well, before the change to cleric, I was going to suggest beefing up some familiars as secondary characters. I guess you could give one to an oracle, as I don't really think the idea of a divine emissary accompanied by a divinely tamed beast is too extreme. The Animal Companion has already been mentioned, but I would consider a beefed up Familiar and a Beefed up Animal Companion can take on the roles of Skill Monkey and Flank Buddy quite easily.

[Jack_Simth]

A good idea maybe, but the last thing this player needs is more turns. Last campaign he played a TWFing ranger and he took ages for his turns. I dread to think about how long it would take him to do three.There's actually a simple trick for speeding that up: Color-coded dice.
Suppose you have six attacks, three on your primary longsword, three on your secondary shortsword. The Longsword is flaming, the shortsword isn't.

So for the longsword, you need a d20, a d8, and a d6 for each attack. So you have one red d20, one red d8, and one red d6. One purple d20, one purple d8, one purple d6. One blue d20, one blue d8, and one blue d6.
For the shortsword, you need a d20, and a d6 for each attack. So you have one green d20 and one green d6; one yellow d20 and one yellow d6; one orange d20 and one orange d6 (if you need distinguished d6's on the same attack - if the shortsword was Frost, for instance, or this was on a rogue who has lots of sneak attack dice - then you get extra distinguishable dice - perhaps black dice with coloured spots to match the attack)

Before the game, you write down your colour code for standard modifiers for strength, BAB, enhancement, and so on on a nice convenient card.

You then put all the dice in the cup, and roll them all at the same time (probably onto a plate or into a pan so they don't go all over the place).

Greatly shortens turns, although it does require a bit more of an investment in dice and a bit more planning to pull off.

[SorenKnight]

Well, before the change to cleric, I was going to suggest beefing up some familiars as secondary characters. I guess you could give one to an oracle, as I don't really think the idea of a divine emissary accompanied by a divinely tamed beast is too extreme. The Animal Companion has already been mentioned, but I would consider a beefed up Familiar and a Beefed up Animal Companion can take on the roles of Skill Monkey and Flank Buddy quite easily.

As I said before, giving the Cleric//Oracle more actions is not a good idea. He takes long enough as it is. I mentioned the Eldritch Guardian fighter archetype and the Mauler familiar archetype to the Magus//Fighter, but he didn't bite.


There's actually a simple trick for speeding that up: Color-coded dice.
Suppose you have six attacks, three on your primary longsword, three on your secondary shortsword. The Longsword is flaming, the shortsword isn't.

So for the longsword, you need a d20, a d8, and a d6 for each attack. So you have one red d20, one red d8, and one red d6. One purple d20, one purple d8, one purple d6. One blue d20, one blue d8, and one blue d6.
For the shortsword, you need a d20, and a d6 for each attack. So you have one green d20 and one green d6; one yellow d20 and one yellow d6; one orange d20 and one orange d6 (if you need distinguished d6's on the same attack - if the shortsword was Frost, for instance, or this was on a rogue who has lots of sneak attack dice - then you get extra distinguishable dice - perhaps black dice with coloured spots to match the attack)

Before the game, you write down your colour code for standard modifiers for strength, BAB, enhancement, and so on on a nice convenient card.

You then put all the dice in the cup, and roll them all at the same time (probably onto a plate or into a pan so they don't go all over the place).

Greatly shortens turns, although it does require a bit more of an investment in dice and a bit more planning to pull off.

That is an interesting plan, but he already used different colored dice for different attacks. The problem was more in how long it took him to do math than anything else.

[Dread_Head]

I am currently running Rise of the Runelords for two gestalt characters. We're just starting The Hook Mountain Massacre so i'll offer advice up to there.

First of all I recommend giving your players max HP at all levels to improve their survivability. I've also given my players very generous stats and would suggest you do the same to allow them to competently cover multiple roles. Also watch out for xp and wealth as with only two players they get out of hand quickly. I've not been awarding xp and just having them level up at appropriate points in the adventure. But if you want to do xp then you should probably give them xp as if they were in a four person party or they will end up ahead of the level curve for the campaign (particularly in part 1). In terms of wealth I've just run with it but if you want to stick closer to wealth by level you'll need to modify the loot a lot.

Part one is mostly fine, Thistletop gets pretty attritiony against a small party though. Make sure they have plenty of healing (wands!) and consider beefing up Shalelu (I made her a Barbarian // Swordsage) to aid them. I also cut out the rest of the dungeon past Nualia as it makes her fight more climatic and removes some potentially overpowering encounters and ridiculous amounts of extra loot. The two most challenging fights in this case will be gogmurt and nualia herself. Watch out for gogmurt pinning them all down with entangle. Nualia is tough but should be manageable, although consider removing the hound as it will tie up at least one member of the party for a couple of rounds!

In part two things start easy with the ghouls mostly being a joke. Aldern is pretty tough though, my party nearly died to him and they went down the well and avoided the hauntings before the combat. I would certainly consider dropping some of the hauntings if I was running it for two players again as they end up targeted by ridiculous amounts each otherwise. If they show up to aldern weakened from all that then they are going to struggle. The skinsaw cultists are again pretty easy and shouldn't cause too many problems. Xanesha however is a tpk machine! I recommend switching her build with Lucretia's from part 3 (change the sorc levels for rogue). I also dropped her save or X spells, SLAs and magic items as with only two characters losing even a rounds worth of items due to a low roll can lose a combat.

Looking over part three nothing up to Fort Rannick looks particularly troublesome. Can't offer advice past that though.