Duskblade Arcane Channeling re-examination

[Bahamut7]

"Arcane Channeling (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, you can use a standard action to cast any touch spell you know and deliver the spell through your weapon with a melee attack. Casting a spell in this manner does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action or less. If the melee attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved.

At 13th level, you can cast any touch spell you know as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round. Doing so discharges the spell at the end of the round, in the case of a touch spell that would otherwise last longer than 1 round."

Now the level 3 aspect we all get and understand. After 3 levels of this class, you get Arcane Channeling that only applies to a standard action. The 13th level variation seems to be assumed you have to take 13 levels of Duskblade to get the ability to channel a spell into all your attacks during a Full-Round Attack, but then I had a thought, "What if you don't have to take 13 levels in Duskblade?"

With all the multiclassing tricks out there, you don't have to dedicate actual levels to caster classes to keep improving your spell list and functionality, which is more fluid and realistic. These tricks make a character less mechanical and more natural. The game designers almost always assume you are taking one class for your character's entire adventure, never multi-classing.

With the above in mind, I thought, what if the second part of arcane channeling was awarded at your 13th character level, not class level? This would make a lot more sense in that it would reflect your character's mastery over his/her magic maturing and reaching new levels.

So in short, What if Arcane Channeling's secondary effect was unlocked up on reaching level 13 instead of 13 levels in Duskblade?

Thoughts? Would this be reasonable and possibly what was the original intent?

[Troacctid]

No, class levels don't work that way. It's referring to your 13th level as a Duskblade, as is the convention for such things.

[AnachroNinja]

Reasonable? Probably. Melee can use nice things sometimes. Original intent? No. No class is designed that way.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It wouldn't be all that harmful, most likely, but it wouldn't benefit melee as much as it would benefit some sort of melee Ultimate Magus or whatever, as per the usual rule of 'stronger with spells = stronger for spellcaster'. Three lost CL on Duskblade just about gets you 9ths, after all.

[Bahamut7]

It's referring to your 13th level as a Duskblade, as is the convention for such things.

Are you sure :biggrin:? The point of this thread is to examine this possibility. I know this can be house ruled, but how interesting would this be something that just went over everyone's heads? Plus, as I said, all classes are designed with the intent that your character is "class name" levels 1 - 20.

Mortis, I was thinking of class combinations that would continue to improve spell casting with a melee class like Enlightened Fist.

Anyways, just was curious as to others thoughts on the matter. Thanks for the replies thus far.

[Kurald Galain]

Thoughts? Would this be reasonable and possibly what was the original intent?

It used to work that way... in 3.0, for instance with the bard (which had a bunch of abilities like "if you have 12 ranks in perform, you can...")

It took optimizers only a brief amount of time to figure that one out, which is why they rewrote this for 3.5 to match the original intent. Since duskblade is a 3.5 class, well, the intent is not what you suggest it is.

[Bahamut7]

It used to work that way... in 3.0, for instance with the bard (which had a bunch of abilities like "if you have 12 ranks in perform, you can...")

It took optimizers only a brief amount of time to figure that one out, which is why they rewrote this for 3.5 to match the original intent. Since duskblade is a 3.5 class, well, the intent is not what you suggest it is.

Ah, never got a chance to play a pure 3.0 campaign. I guess the wording still reflects that a bit without that knowledge.

On a side note, would it be broken to request this in a campaign?

[Troacctid]

I'm not going to say it would be broken, but it would be pretty unfair to the Duskblade as a class to remove what could be considered the biggest incentive not to multiclass. So it depends—do you only care about balancing the party against NPC enemies, or do you care about balancing character options relative to each other? Your change is fine under the former criterion, less so under the latter.

[Bahamut7]

I'm not going to say it would be broken, but it would be pretty unfair to the Duskblade as a class to remove what could be considered the biggest incentive not to multiclass. So it depends—do you only care about balancing the party against NPC enemies, or do you care about balancing character options relative to each other? Your change is fine under the former criterion, less so under the latter.

That is a fair point, but for my group multi-classing is pretty much expected, so I guess it really depends on the particular group.

[Willie the Duck]

That is a fair point, but for my group multi-classing is pretty much expected, so I guess it really depends on the particular group.

Well, if you made this change, expect people to immediate multiclass or PrC out after 3rd level (or certainly by 4th, when one can get into the spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/etc10 path that other gishes use). While this ability isn't the only thing a Duskblade has going for it (2 good saves and decent skills to choose from, if not decent skill points), it certainly is the primary one (and reason why very few people talk about Duskblade builds that go over level 13).

What your suggesting is an interesting thought experiment, but I don't know what paths it opens up. Perhaps making the Duskblade3/something-else-which-doesn't-continue-to-advance-their-spellcasting build slightly better.

[Bahamut7]

What your suggesting is an interesting thought experiment, but I don't know what paths it opens up. Perhaps making the Duskblade3/something-else-which-doesn't-continue-to-advance-their-spellcasting build slightly better.

Exactly why I posted this. I am still new to this edition and when I see abilities worded like Arcane Channeling, it makes me wonder.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Exactly why I posted this. I am still new to this edition and when I see abilities worded like Arcane Channeling, it makes me wonder.
As a theoretical exercise, we can consider the following build:

Illumian duskblade 3/wizard 2/ultimate magus 10/abjurant champion 5.

Pick up a metamagic feat, Improved Krau sigil, and Practiced Spellcaster (duskblade) at levels 1, 3, and 6.

This allows you to full arcane channel every eligible wizard spell. With Practiced Spellcaster boosting your duskblade caster level, you get to apply all UM increases to your wizard casting. You end up with 10th-level duskblade casting (third-level spells at CL 20, good for casting hour/level buffs), and 17th-level wizard casting (CL 23). Your base attack bonus is only 14, which is a bit unfortunate, but still gets you an okay full attack.

Instead of Abjurant Champion, you can go AC 1/Incantatrix 4 (persistomancy made easy, gain two metamagic feats, lose 2 base attack) or UM 9/Legacy Champion 6 (four more levels of dual advancement, which means duskblade 4th-level spells at CL 24, and the ability to affect spells up to 7th level with Augmented Casting, but you lose 9ths and 1 base attack).

Normally, it's not straightforward for duskblades to channel metamagic'd spells: the spell must have a casting time of one standard action or less, which precludes full-round spontaneous metamagic spells. Wizards' prepared spells don't have that problem, allowing you to channel really funky stuff (e.g. mailman-style orbs, Fell Drain/Fell Animate spells, and so on). Also, with the massively expanded spell list, I'm sure there are good buffs to be shared with the party (e.g. use only one slot to polymorph the whole party, by making four attacks).

Of course, this build doesn't actually get you higher-level spells until level 10, when you get 4ths on the wizard side, and at that point your base attack is only 6 (but you get haste, unlike a straight duskblade).

[Aegis013]

The 13th level variation seems to be assumed you have to take 13 levels of Duskblade to get the ability to channel a spell into all your attacks during a Full-Round Attack,...

I think other people answered the other questions adequately, I just want to point out that by the text, it looks like you get it for every attack on a full attack, but it only affects each target once. So a full attack channeling Vampiric Touch against a single foe only discharges a single Vampiric Touch.

Personally, I like the houserule that it affects a single target for every hit, but I don't think that's the RAW.

[Karnith]

I think other people answered the other questions adequately, I just want to point out that by the text, it looks like you get it for every attack on a full attack, but it only affects each target once. So a full attack channeling Vampiric Touch against a single foe only discharges a single Vampiric Touch.

Personally, I like the houserule that it affects a single target for every hit, but I don't think that's the RAW.
The intent, at least, was likely to have a given spell affect each target once, given the relevant FAQ answer.

At 13th level, the duskblade’s arcane channeling class feature (PH2 20) says “you can cast any touch spell you know as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round.” If you hit the same creature more than once during the full attack action, does the spell affect it each time you hit?
No. The spell affects each target only once.

[Khedrac]

allowing you to channel really funky stuff (e.g. mailman-style orbs, Fell Drain/Fell Animate spells, and so on).
Some of this (e.g. the orbs) hits the problem that only touch spells can be channeled, not ranged touch (different things in D&D) - something that makes most of the Duskblade's own spell list not actually that useful.


Also, with the massively expanded spell list, I'm sure there are good buffs to be shared with the party (e.g. use only one slot to polymorph the whole party, by making four attacks).
Now this is a really nice idea - good reason to carry a sap.

[Zanos]

Exactly why I posted this. I am still new to this edition and when I see abilities worded like Arcane Channeling, it makes me wonder.
I strongly recommend against making things that scale with class levels scale with character level instead as a blanket rule.

[Bahamut7]

I think other people answered the other questions adequately, I just want to point out that by the text, it looks like you get it for every attack on a full attack, but it only affects each target once. So a full attack channeling Vampiric Touch against a single foe only discharges a single Vampiric Touch.

Personally, I like the houserule that it affects a single target for every hit, but I don't think that's the RAW.

Yea, I've seen that in my searches, and that does seem pretty straight forward, though some still argue the RAW vs RAI on that one. This is why that aspect I would leave up to the DM of the campaign it came up in.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Some of this (e.g. the orbs) hits the problem that only touch spells can be channeled, not ranged touch (different things in D&D) - something that makes most of the Duskblade's own spell list not actually that useful..
Right, good point. I believe combust is the spell of choice, then, although it does allow SR (but you have a nice caster level).

[Willie the Duck]

Instead of Abjurant Champion, you can go AC 1/Incantatrix 4 (persistomancy made easy, gain two metamagic feats, lose 2 base attack) or UM 9/Legacy Champion 6 (four more levels of dual advancement, which means duskblade 4th-level spells at CL 24, and the ability to affect spells up to 7th level with Augmented Casting, but you lose 9ths and 1 base attack).

My understanding is that Legacy Champion cannot continue dual advancement. It's abilities continue a previous classes spellcasting. An UM doesn't have spellcasting of it's own, so it cannot be advanced. Anyone have anything definitive on this?

[Douglas]

My understanding is that Legacy Champion cannot continue dual advancement. It's abilities continue a previous classes spellcasting. An UM doesn't have spellcasting of it's own, so it cannot be advanced. Anyone have anything definitive on this?
That reasoning is for things like Archmage, Loremaster, etc. - prestige classes that advance a spellcasting class by advancing its spellcasting. Legacy Champion doesn't do that. It advances any class at all by advancing absolutely every class feature (note: hit dice, BAB, saves, and skill points are not considered class features for this).

[Khedrac]

That reasoning is for things like Archmage, Loremaster, etc. - prestige classes that advance a spellcasting class by advancing its spellcasting. Legacy Champion doesn't do that. It advances any class at all by advancing absolutely every class feature (note: hit dice, BAB, saves, and skill points are not considered class features for this).
And my understanding is that nowhere does Legacy Champion say that one can extrapolate class features on to levels that a class does not have. This means that things like Abjurrant Champion 6 grant nothing at all.

For me trying this would just get you laughed at.

[Ger. Bessa]

You don't get new features, you just use a bigger number for your abjurant champion class. Look at the text for AC or UM's abilites, they refer to class level.

[Kelb_Panthera]

And my understanding is that nowhere does Legacy Champion say that one can extrapolate class features on to levels that a class does not have. This means that things like Abjurrant Champion 6 grant nothing at all.

For me trying this would just get you laughed at.

This is really simple: abjurant champion has the spellcasting class feature that says that it advances the casting of another class at each level of abjurant champion. This is not an actual spellcasting track that similar class features of other caster PrC's can interact with. Legacy champion, on the other hand, advances -all- of a class' features, including this one.

There's no ambiguity here. Every class feature that can advance (HD related benefits [hp, skill points, class skills, bab, base saves] aren't class features) does advance.

Legacy champion advancing class features beyond their normal limits (that is; more than 10 levels of PrC benefits and the like) was almost certainly unintended but it advancing theurges as normal almost certainly was and regardless of authorial intent that's how the rules read. If you want to say that it can't do either one or both of those things, that is your prerogative but it's definitely a houserule.

[Willie the Duck]

Which just to me proves that RAW poindexterism is pointless, but that's neither here nor there. Thanks everyone for explaining the logic.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Which just to me proves that RAW poindexterism is pointless, but that's neither here nor there. Thanks everyone for explaining the logic.
Just as a clarification and example:
If you get an ability that says "at every class level, you get x", then you get x, even for levels that aren't ordinarily listed on the class table.
If you get an ability that says "at levels 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5, you get x", then you don't get anything past level 5, no matter how many virtual levels you gain.

A relevant example is the Mind Mage class, an 8/10 dual arcane/psionic advancing class, which lists all eight levels of psionic and arcane advancement individually ("at levels 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10"). That kind of spellcasting can't be advanced past level 10 by Legacy Champion.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Which just to me proves that RAW poindexterism is pointless, but that's neither here nor there. Thanks everyone for explaining the logic.

The game's rules are full of little hiccups like this. It most likely was not intended that Dragon Disciple would put itself into a quantum super-state upon reaching level 10, wherein it is both a dragon and not a dragon at the same time. Drown healing was almost certainly unintended as well.

It is both expected and necessary for the game's rules text to be filtered through a human being. However, the game is more interesting to some of us if that filtration is as coarse as possible. The idiosyncrasies of raw are a feature not a bug.

On an unrelated note enunciating carefully so that Google will type what I intended is a bit of a pain in the butt.