[3.PF] Feats that should really be uses for skills.

[The Vagabond]

As listed in the title, after seeing the large amount of feats in ultimate intrigue that should just be uses for skills, I'm curious about what other feats should just be uses for skills.

[Thurbane]

Track and Investigate come to mind for 3.5.

[avr]

Research also counts for 3.5.

You've presumably already noticed the likes of Call Truce in Ultimate Intrigue, Vagabond, from what you say in the OP. How about you list those?

Others in PF - Disable Dweomer, Field Repair, and Urban Forager.

[gadren]

Yeah, I would be curious specifically what feats you think should be skills instead, Vagabond?

[AvatarVecna]

Appraise Magic Value

Combine the power of your Appraise, Knowledge (Arcana), and Spellcraft skill to essentially cast Identify. Personally, I think this should be a function of the Appraise skill with a high DC; only extremely skilled appraisers can determine an items properties from pure experience.

Augmented Alchemy [Epic]

When crafting alchemical items, you can raise the DC and expenses by a tone in exchange for a much more powerful alchemical item; multiple such increases can be stacked together. Personally, I wouldn't mind if this was just a function of the Craft (Alchemy) skill, especially since I don't see why the ability to make super-holy water should require a feat.

Brachiation

You have 1000 ranks in climb and jump each, but you can't swing through the trees like Tarzan unless you spend a feat to specifically be able to do that thing (and nothing else)? That's pretty stupid.

Extraordinary Concentration

The only reason I feel the ability to concentrate on multiple spell at a time should require a feat is because spellcasters are already powerful enough; if spellcasters were more balanced around T3 or so, this would be a terrible waste of a feat slot; as it stands, it's a waste of a feat slot as long as you haven't cheesed your way into infinite feats, at which point it's a feat tax.

Extraordinary Spell Aim

Basically the same as for the previous; the ability to exclude a target from a blast should be part of being a powerful caster regardless, not something you specifically train for.

Hear The Unseen

Ooh, target somebody invisible by listening for them? Sounds like you should take a pretty hefty penalty, but otherwise reasonable...wait, you need a feat for that? Screw it, just throw some flour around or something.

Improved Swimming

Swim faster than normal; I'd just ignore this feat and require a penalty to the swim check to swim faster, but that's just me.

Leap Attack

If this was an aspect of the Jump skill, it would give Monks a boost in the DPR game; if the damage increased by how far you jumped, rather than being a straight bonus dependent on you bypassing a single particular DC, it would be even better, but making this feat a base part of the Jump skill would be so much better.

Complete Scoundrel does it better; while I'd prefer for most skill tricks to also be functions of base skills, costing 2 skill points rather than a feat is much more reasonable.

[gadren]

Appraise Magic Value

Combine the power of your Appraise, Knowledge (Arcana), and Spellcraft skill to essentially cast Identify. Personally, I think this should be a function of the Appraise skill with a high DC; only extremely skilled appraisers can determine an items properties from pure experience.

Augmented Alchemy [Epic]

When crafting alchemical items, you can raise the DC and expenses by a tone in exchange for a much more powerful alchemical item; multiple such increases can be stacked together. Personally, I wouldn't mind if this was just a function of the Craft (Alchemy) skill, especially since I don't see why the ability to make super-holy water should require a feat.

Brachiation

You have 1000 ranks in climb and jump each, but you can't swing through the trees like Tarzan unless you spend a feat to specifically be able to do that thing (and nothing else)? That's pretty stupid.

Extraordinary Concentration

The only reason I feel the ability to concentrate on multiple spell at a time should require a feat is because spellcasters are already powerful enough; if spellcasters were more balanced around T3 or so, this would be a terrible waste of a feat slot; as it stands, it's a waste of a feat slot as long as you haven't cheesed your way into infinite feats, at which point it's a feat tax.

Extraordinary Spell Aim

Basically the same as for the previous; the ability to exclude a target from a blast should be part of being a powerful caster regardless, not something you specifically train for.

Hear The Unseen

Ooh, target somebody invisible by listening for them? Sounds like you should take a pretty hefty penalty, but otherwise reasonable...wait, you need a feat for that? Screw it, just throw some flour around or something.

Improved Swimming

Swim faster than normal; I'd just ignore this feat and require a penalty to the swim check to swim faster, but that's just me.

Leap Attack

If this was an aspect of the Jump skill, it would give Monks a boost in the DPR game; if the damage increased by how far you jumped, rather than being a straight bonus dependent on you bypassing a single particular DC, it would be even better, but making this feat a base part of the Jump skill would be so much better.

Complete Scoundrel does it better; while I'd prefer for most skill tricks to also be functions of base skills, costing 2 skill points rather than a feat is much more reasonable.

Skills tricks were definitely a good idea that they just didn't really do much with.

[gadren]

As listed in the title, after seeing the large amount of feats in ultimate intrigue that should just be uses for skills, I'm curious about what other feats should just be uses for skills.

So I guess Vagabond has forgotten about his own thread... anyone guess what feats in Ultimate Intrigue he was referring to?

[Gildedragon]

Silver Tongue (ancestor) has a bunch of Diplomacy skills that ought be part of the skill (such as changing someone's attitude to someone else).

[tadkins]

Spell Thematics should be part of Spellcraft, imo.

[weckar]

Goad immediately springs to mind... Let those Cha skills work WITHOUT screwing the party out of combat!

[The Vagabond]

I see some folks really do want to see my opinions on what feats should just be uses for skills:

Blistering Bluff (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/blustering-bluff) should really be something that players should be free to just make an attempt at- at a penelty, but should be usable.
Call Truce should really, REALLY just be a use of Diplomacy at a large penelty.
Cartogramancer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/cartogramancer) was just how things werre run before, to some degree- You didn't need a feat if you had geographical information. But now you do.
Conceal Spell is sixfold fecal mater.
Cutting Humiliation should just be a method to talk folks down a notch.
Why Darkness Trick even HAS to be a thing is beyond me.
Intoxicating Flattery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/intoxicating-flattery): Seriously, why must we spend a feat?
Nerve-Racking Negotiator really should be diplomacy's default; When terrified, you don't go to the cops for fear of recourse.
The identifying part of Measure Foe is dumb, and should be a use of Knowledge skills.
Play to the Crowd to gain the +2 bonus is foolish.
Quick Favor should be a bonus for having solid contacts.
Sense assumptions and relationships are dumb, and should be uses for their respective skills.
Swipe and Stash should be a high-DC ability of Slight of Hand- I can do it with complete ease.\
Willing Accomplice is just what folks used to ad-hoc bonuses for.

There might be more, but that's just me with somewhat high scrutiny.

[Troacctid]

Dragoncrafter and Trophy Collector should be normal functions of their respective Craft skills.

I think the Iaijutsu Focus skill is a good example of the reverse, a skill that should have been a feat.

Shout out to Complete Adventurer's Combat Intuition for getting it right—it's a new use for a skill that you can do without the feat, but having the feat makes it much, much better.

[Inevitability]

Spell Thematics should be part of Spellcraft, imo.

It shouldn't be any skill at all. As long as you're casting fireball, who cares if it appears to be blue, or green, or filled with screaming faces?

[Jormengand]

Truename research.

[gadren]

It shouldn't be any skill at all. As long as you're casting fireball, who cares if it appears to be blue, or green, or filled with screaming faces?

IIRC, did spell thematically have the benefit of making the spell craft DC to identify it a bit harder?
(Not that that is worth a feat, but merits a skill check)

[Inevitability]

IIRC, did spell thematically have the benefit of making the spell craft DC to identify it a bit harder?
(Not that that is worth a feat, but merits a skill check)

+4 to identification DC's, and +1 caster level on a single spell of each spell level. You're right: a skill check sounds about balanced: as long as there's some kind of drawback if you fail the check.

[tadkins]

It shouldn't be any skill at all. As long as you're casting fireball, who cares if it appears to be blue, or green, or filled with screaming faces?

That's what I've always believed. Every spellcaster is different and their spells should reflect their identity if they want. I can easily picture a LG celestial mage casting a fireball that looks somewhat different from that CE lich that he or she is battling.

[Milodiah]

I think I recall reading somewhere in 3.5's 'how to DM' stuff that players are allowed to come up with how their spells are cast and all that, with the caveat that they shouldn't try to milk mechanical bonuses out of it (i.e. no free Intimidate check just because this person's version of Fireball comes out of the mouth of a giant illusory dragon head).

On second thought, though, that may have been Shadowrun...so many magic systems, it gets a bit hard to keep them separate. As a DM I'd say the idea still applies, again as long as they don't try to exploit it.


However, I do think that Conceal Spell is a valid feat. I don't care how good of a mage you are, in this game's magic system you can't just take a penalty to your spellcraft check to turn the somatic components of Disintegrate into a vigorous nosepicking session. Therefore, that kind of ability merits a feat.