Let's Talk Pathfinder Familiars (and the Magical Child archetype)

[ZeroiaSD]

So I'm starting up in a game where I'll be running a 'magical child' vigilante, which has a familiar.

So I'm curious, what's everyone's favorite familiars? Regular or improved? Which are best for min-maxing, and which do you find most fun?


And then, to throw a curve, the Magical Child has the unique situation that they get their familiar upgraded to Improved Familiar not once, but three times, at 3rd, 5th, and 7th, with eventually the ability to switch between them.

If you have to pick multiple versions, but you pretty much gotta stick within an alignment*, what's the best chains of familiars? This is a fairly unique challenge for the Magical Child, as everyone else will, at most, get one Improved Familiar, almost always the best available. In some alignments, 3rd and 5th level ones are fairly slim pickings, after all (and the 3rds are never particularly impressive).


I'm thinking of going Rabbit < Entropic Hawk (Bat? Some kinda flier!) < Sprite < Tidepool Dragon for chaotic neutral familiars, since it grants a pretty good range of abilities.



*Similar note, I find the wording somewhat murky on if the familiar has to stick to one alignment hard, or if it can take forms one-step-off, or what.

[Geddy2112]

My regular familiar favorites are the ones that grant +4 initiative. After that, I like anything with flight, or some special sense like scent or a special attack(skunk).

For improved, I have a soft spot for the pooka. The silvanshee agathion is also pretty baller, and evil casters can't go wrong with an imp. With improved familiars, wands and scrolls are the name of the game-meaning hands, speech and a good UMD if you don't have a good one. Sprite and tidepool dragon are both green light to speak and hold a wand, so they can cast. Sprite is good for the 1/day color spray and detection abilities. Tidepool dragons are mini casters and freedom of movement is outright bonkers.

The archetype requires your vigilante alignment to be within one step of the familiar to qualify. If your vigilante alignment was neutral evil, you could get an imp, even if your other alignment was good. Some familiars like the shikigami require an exact matching alignment. Some familiars, like a pooka, only require a nonlawful caster. Check each one.

[ZeroiaSD]

My regular familiar favorites are the ones that grant +4 initiative. After that, I like anything with flight, or some special sense like scent or a special attack(skunk).

Ditto, initiative is nice :)


For improved, I have a soft spot for the pooka. The silvanshee agathion is also pretty baller, and evil casters can't go wrong with an imp. With improved familiars, wands and scrolls are the name of the game-meaning hands, speech and a good UMD if you don't have a good one. Sprite and tidepool dragon are both green light to speak and hold a wand, so they can cast. Sprite is good for the 1/day color spray and detection abilities. Tidepool dragons are mini casters and freedom of movement is outright bonkers.

*Nods* Pooka are fun.



The archetype requires your vigilante alignment to be within one step of the familiar to qualify. If your vigilante alignment was neutral evil, you could get an imp, even if your other alignment was good. Some familiars like the shikigami require an exact matching alignment. Some familiars, like a pooka, only require a nonlawful caster. Check each one.

Yea, my wondering is more on, "If I'm neutral in vigilante form, can my familiar get Celestial at level 3 (since it's NG, one step from me), Elemental at level 5 (my alignment), and then Faerie Dragon (one step in the other direction) at level 7?" Or does the Familiar have to go *just* NG or *just* N or *just* CN all the way up?

Because it's the only familiar that has to take into account multiple forms.

[Geddy2112]

Yes, your familiar can change alignment requirements so long as it still meets criteria for being attached to your vigilante alignment. So you could be a N vigilante, with an NG familiar, then an N familiar, then a CN familiar. As best as I understand, you can have a familiar with multiple forms and multiple alignments so long as they all meet the alignment restriction of being tied to your vigilante alignment.

So long as those familiars don't have specific requirements that would bar them from being attached to your vigilante alignment.

[ZeroiaSD]

Of the initiative familiars, Compsognathus is probably the best since it has poison... assuming you're up for risking a non-improved familiar in a fight, and assuming a dinosaur doesn't stick out too much!



Yes, your familiar can change alignment requirements so long as it still meets criteria for being attached to your vigilante alignment. So you could be a N vigilante, with an NG familiar, then an N familiar, then a CN familiar. As best as I understand, you can have a familiar with multiple forms and multiple alignments so long as they all meet the alignment restriction of being tied to your vigilante alignment.

So long as those familiars don't have specific requirements that would bar them from being attached to your vigilante alignment.

So it's a familiar who changes around a bit mentally as they change, interesting :)

Hm, if I'm Chaotic Good, that opens up Celestial rather than Entropic.. which is better for offense, less good for defense. If I'm some flavor of Neutral (either NG or CN), then that gives the elemental option at level 5...

Level 3 really needs some more options.

[Geddy2112]

Of the initiative familiars, Compsognathus is probably the best since it has poison... assuming you're up for risking a non-improved familiar in a fight, and assuming a dinosaur doesn't stick out too much!
The poison is meh considering it only hits strength, and the DC is low. I like hare the best because of the absurdly high stealth bonus and speed. If you are keen on your familiar empathy, it is golden.




So it's a familiar who changes around a bit mentally as they change, interesting :)

Hm, if I'm Chaotic Good, that opens up Celestial rather than Entropic.. which is better for offense, less good for defense. If I'm some flavor of Neutral (either NG or CN), then that gives the elemental option at level 5...

Level 3 really needs some more options.
Celestial is hands down better in most campaigns, as lawful enemies come up rarely, but evil enemies come up a lot. Regardless, you won't be needing this familiar form for long, but neither is bad to have. I think you would be better off as having a celestial. You can get a coral capuchin if you have a water source to keep it in, for a decent skillmonkey(no pun intended) at lower levels. Elementals are not great familiars at level 5, and the improved familiar feat saves the best for level 7, your build is just getting another utility form.

[ZeroiaSD]

The poison is meh considering it only hits strength, and the DC is low. I like hare the best because of the absurdly high stealth bonus and speed. If you are keen on your familiar empathy, it is golden.


Yea.

Though I just realized something about the Dodo- It's *small*. It has actual reach... which'd be helpful if it could attack worth anything, but still, has it's uses.



Celestial is hands down better in most campaigns, as lawful enemies come up rarely, but evil enemies come up a lot. Regardless, you won't be needing this familiar form for long, but neither is bad to have. I think you would be better off as having a celestial. You can get a coral capuchin if you have a water source to keep it in, for a decent skillmonkey(no pun intended) at lower levels. Elementals are not great familiars at level 5, and the improved familiar feat saves the best for level 7, your build is just getting another utility form.

Offensively, Celestial's better, but defensively, fewer things get past CR/Lawful. Though neither's really great considering how weak the base familiars are... I do wonder if I can swing getting a Celestial Eagle....

I likely won't have a water source....

Elementals aren't great at level 5, but what's better? Carbuncle? Sprite?

I've got some utility forms, it wouldn't hurt to have something that can hit ^^

[Florian]

I like Greensting Scorpion > Celestial Greensting Scorpion > Small Aether Elemental > Psychic Serpent.

[Azoth]

Depending on my use for it, the Arbiter Inevitable has its uses. Mainly it can't be killed unless they shut down its Regeneration (Chaotic). I have used Shield other on it to effectively double my HP at times. Every hit I take gets cut in half, and the glowball in my pocket can't die since Shield Other damage is empathic and not typed.

[ZeroiaSD]

The Familiar Archetypes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes) are pretty cool. I know there's some uncertainty on whether higher Magical Child familiar forms can use 'em, but even if it's only the base form, a Decoy or Emissary is neat.

If higher forms can, then making the lvl 3 one a Mauler seems a sure bet.

[Kurald Galain]

The Familiar Archetypes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes) are pretty cool. I know there's some uncertainty on whether higher Magical Child familiar forms can use 'em, but even if it's only the base form, a Decoy or Emissary is neat.

Yes, those archetypes make a familiar almost a must-have on any class that can take one. The sage is great for a character that's low on skill points and/or intelligence, and the protector is good on any melee character (and there are familiars that give +1 AC in addition to that).

[Florian]

Yes, those archetypes make a familiar almost a must-have on any class that can take one. The sage is great for a character that's low on skill points and/or intelligence, and the protector is good on any melee character (and there are familiars that give +1 AC in addition to that).

If there was´t the problem with Improved Familiar and the fact that Magic Child auto-progresses to it.

[ZeroiaSD]

Yes, those archetypes make a familiar almost a must-have on any class that can take one. The sage is great for a character that's low on skill points and/or intelligence, and the protector is good on any melee character (and there are familiars that give +1 AC in addition to that).

Right. And Decoy for a social character- a Vigilante with a secret ID!

"Bruce Wayne can't be Batman! I mean, they're having a conversation right there, in public."

Which can be slapped on the original weakest form to boot.


If there was´t the problem with Improved Familiar and the fact that Magic Child auto-progresses to it.

That's the debate- it says getting a familiar form from the list, but it doesn't mention getting the other aspects of the feat so it's not hard to read that they have an OK there.


And, even so, Sage and Emissary are clear to go. A Sprite with Vision of Madness via Emissary would be cool (which can be used as a situational buff or debuff pretty easily. Dunno what other domains would be good), and Sage is great for knowledge.

So, first form- any archetype. Second, third, and fourth form- Choice of two, maybe more.

[Cyrocloud]

I personally like Aether Elemental and Earth Elemental. You can even have your familiar maintain the same shape it has it's base form if you go with elementals. Aether is great because it can launch you or your party barbarian 480 ft with its standard action. Personally I love the idea of my familiar evolving into an invisible Barbarian cannon, but that's me.

[ZeroiaSD]

Yes, those archetypes make a familiar almost a must-have on any class that can take one. The sage is great for a character that's low on skill points and/or intelligence, and the protector is good on any melee character (and there are familiars that give +1 AC in addition to that).

One thing that's nice is it can be combined with Decoy, unlike most familiar archetypes they don't overlap so both are available. Putting two non-combat archetypes on the same one makes for a cool non-combat familiar.

[Slithery D]

One thing that's nice is it can be combined with Decoy, unlike most familiar archetypes they don't overlap so both are available. Putting two non-combat archetypes on the same one makes for a cool non-combat familiar.

I can't tell if you think Decoy combos with Sage or with Protector, but all three replace Alertness and don't stack.

[Yanisa]

I can't tell if you think Decoy combos with Sage or with Protector, but all three replace Alertness and don't stack.
:smallconfused:

The Sage I see doesn't replace Alertness, so Decoy stacks with that one... But Decoy doesn't work with Improved Familiar, as Decoy replaces "speak with animals".

[Serafina]

The way the Magical Child's familiar is worded, their familiar can take archetypes. The familiar should also be able to keep the archetype when taking the form of Improved Familiars - the text about not gaining "speak with creatures of it's type" is in the Improved Familiar feat, which the Magical Child does not ever get, the familiar just takes the form of one.

Honestly the whole thing is very confusingly worded, but having an "improved familiar" with archetypes would actually make the Magical Child unique and interesting, so let's hope this doesn't get FAQed away.

[Prime32]

There's a precedent (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions/animal-companion-archetypes/charger-companion-archetype) for animal companions being able to take archetypes that trade away Share Spells even if they don't have Share Spells. So extending that logic to familiars would suggest that even regular Improved Familiars are supposed to be able to take archetypes. I still consider it more likely that Paizo will just nerf Magical Child, though.

[Yanisa]

Honestly the whole thing is very confusingly worded, but having an "improved familiar" with archetypes would actually make the Magical Child unique and interesting, so let's hope this doesn't get FAQed away.

Yeah, I should have made a footnote. Strict RAW it works as of now with the archetype version of improved familiar, but not the feat improved familiar.
But because its confusing worded and also due paizo's earlier track record regarding these things, I do think this one is going to get FAQed away. I would err on the side of caution and if you are in a strict RAW environment (for example: PFS), even though current RAW allows it.

I also wonder if you could make a case for different familiar vigilante identities to have different archetypes, but I guess that would be a hard sell. If your body changes, your class features tend to stick around...

[Slithery D]

:smallconfused:

The Sage I see doesn't replace Alertness, so Decoy stacks with that one... But Decoy doesn't work with Improved Familiar, as Decoy replaces "speak with animals".

What source are you using? The Sage you see only counts if it's not a hallucination in your own mind or on your GM's house rules.

pfsrd (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/sage-familiar-archetype)
Sage's Knowledge (Ex)

A sage stores information on every topic and is happy to lecture its master on the finer points. A sage can attempt all Knowledge checks untrained and receives a bonus on all Knowledge checks equal to 1/2 its level. Additionally, a sage gains 2 skill ranks at each level.

Its maximum number of ranks in any given skill is equal to its level.

This ability replaces alertness and the familiar's ability to share its master's skill ranks.

Archives of Nethys (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Familiar%20Sage) has the same text.

[Psyren]

Yes, those archetypes make a familiar almost a must-have on any class that can take one. The sage is great for a character that's low on skill points and/or intelligence, and the protector is good on any melee character (and there are familiars that give +1 AC in addition to that).

To add to this, there are also Bloodline Familiars (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Familiar%20Bloodli ne%20Familiars); nearly any class can get a bloodline (e.g. via dip, VMC or Elritch Heritage), and familiars gained via bloodline gain a bonus ability on top of all the others they get, such as . Since familiar progression explicitly stacks (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Familiar), you can get a bloodline familiar and then use your Magical Child levels to continue its advancement.

Picking up a bloodline familiar like Abyssal on your Magical Child could make the familiar a pretty painful bruiser.

[Florian]

To add to this, there are also Bloodline Familiars (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Familiar%20Bloodli ne%20Familiars); nearly any class can get a bloodline (e.g. via dip, VMC or Elritch Heritage), and familiars gained via bloodline gain a bonus ability on top of all the others they get, such as . Since familiar progression explicitly stacks (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Familiar), you can get a bloodline familiar and then use your Magical Child levels to continue its advancement.

Picking up a bloodline familiar like Abyssal on your Magical Child could make the familiar a pretty painful bruiser.

Most of the things you mention don´t work.

The cost of the bloodline familiar template is the first bloodline power and the first bloodline bonus spell, altering the bonus spell progression.

Eldritch Heritage and VMC Sorcerer don´t give bonus spells, so they´re out.

A one-level dip into sorcerer (pretty barebones then, practically 3,5E) can do it, tho.

[Psyren]

Most of the things you mention don´t work.

The cost of the bloodline familiar template is the first bloodline power and the first bloodline bonus spell, altering the bonus spell progression.

Eldritch Heritage and VMC Sorcerer don´t give bonus spells, so they´re out.

A one-level dip into sorcerer (pretty barebones then, practically 3,5E) can do it, tho.

I disagree - what it actually says is:

"At 1st level, a sorcerer, bloodrager, or any other character with one of the following bloodlines can choose to gain a bloodline familiar."

So it specifically allows anyone with one of those bloodlines to get these familiars.

The part you're referring to of course is this:

"This replaces the 1st-level bloodline power granted by the character's bloodline; in addition, the character gains bonus spells from her bloodline one level later than she normally would. For example, a sorcerer with the aberrant bloodline who takes a bloodline familiar would not gain the acidic ray bloodline power, and she would gain her first bonus spell at 4th level, her second bonus spell at 6th level, and so on."

Note the first sentence - it doesn't actually replace/require the bonus spells feature. You just get the spells later than you normally would. If you don't get them at all, that line is irrelevant.

[ZeroiaSD]

The problem with that is you can only do it at level one, and Eldritch Heritage feats require two feats.



What source are you using? The Sage you see only counts if it's not a hallucination in your own mind or on your GM's house rules.


Oh drat, I missed that sage replaced alertness because it wasn't on the first ability.


Hm, Sage or Decoy, tough choice...

[Slithery D]

The problem with that is you can only do it at level one, and Eldritch Heritage feats require two feats.


That seems right, but still leaves VMC, who makes all bloodline choices at 1st, but doesn't actually gain "the 1st level bloodline power" until 3rd level. So they can decide up front what your bloodline will be and that you want a familiar, and just get it later.

[ZeroiaSD]

That seems right, but still leaves VMC, who makes all bloodline choices at 1st, but doesn't actually gain "the 1st level bloodline power" until 3rd level. So they can decide up front what your bloodline will be and that you want a familiar, and just get it later.

Agreed, that's how I'd read it.

[Endless Query]

Also if just looking for weird, quirky, yet kinda dangerous familiars, I've always been kind of fond of the Shikigami. Hurl random stuff at your enemies, invis, pretend to be a statue of invis doesn't work, can be small and yet attack (and touch spell) adjacent without provoking (Granted touch spell isn't as good for Magic Child, so far as I can remember.) (And yes that works, touch spells count as armed =P) (also means so long as it's carrying something can totally aid your AC/attack from your shoulder), bunch of immunities, DR... Quite stealthy. I'm very fond in general, seems like it could be really amusing here.

[iceifur]

The chuspiki (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/chuspiki) is pretty amusing. A flying mini-kineticist that you can keep in your pocket. And since its Air Blast is based on its HD, which is based on your master level...

[ZeroiaSD]

The chuspiki (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/chuspiki) is pretty amusing. A flying mini-kineticist that you can keep in your pocket. And since its Air Blast is based on its HD, which is based on your master level...

"1d6+1 + the kineticist's Constitution modifier, increasing by 1d6+1 for every 2 kineticist levels beyond 1st"

Chuspiki, despite the size, still has a 12 con, which you could amp further. So, at level 7, 4d6+5. With Point blank shot and precise shot to boot.

Not bad! Probably the most damage familiar choice of all, even with being a flying puff ball.

[Endless Query]

And it'll have as good of a BAB as an actual Kineticist too, since they're also 3/4ths, and their dex of 17 (maaaybe 18 if you're in the mood) gives them not the worst chance to hit in the world. . . . Though they're actually a pretty questionable to bad choice for an actual Wizard type. Best damage, perhaps, but you're never going to hit anything >_>

[ZeroiaSD]

And it'll have as good of a BAB as an actual Kineticist too, since they're also 3/4ths, and their dex of 17 (maaaybe 18 if you're in the mood) gives them not the worst chance to hit in the world. . . . Though they're actually a pretty questionable to bad choice for an actual Wizard type. Best damage, perhaps, but you're never going to hit anything >_>

Yea, not great for a wizard, their other abilities aren't the most useful, but a Magical Child who wants more damage dealing, or other class/archetype? A great choice. I was set on tidepool dragon but I'm going to have to think about this...


Hm, there's a feat... ah yes. Familiar Bond (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/familiar-bond), lets just about anyone get a familiar, and this could be a strong choice for a martial character. It doesn't give you all the beanies of a familiar, but..
"You do not gain the special ability the familiar normally grants its master, and the familiar does not gain the deliver touch spells, scry on familiar, share spells, speak with animals of its kind, or spell resistance special abilities. Otherwise, your total Hit Dice are used as your wizard level for determining the familiar's abilities."

Of those, only spell resistance is one a non-spellcaster would miss anyway. Iron Will, Familiar Bond, Improved Familiar. Three feats to having a full BAB aircannon fighting alongside your gunslinger, fighter, barbarian, or whatever.

[ZeroiaSD]

Question, are there any good magic items for familiars? Like something to bring a tiny one up to small so it can threaten and flank? Or other useful abilities?

[avr]

Question, are there any good magic items for familiars? Like something to bring a tiny one up to small so it can threaten and flank? Or other useful abilities?
A Stone of Alliance is handy, though it has no effect on reach. Short of some item which alters it physically (e.g. longarm bracers, or a greater hat of disguise) I can't think of a way of adding reach though.

[ZeroiaSD]

A Stone of Alliance is handy, though it has no effect on reach. Short of some item which alters it physically (e.g. longarm bracers, or a greater hat of disguise) I can't think of a way of adding reach though.

Oh, Longarm! That actually seems like a simple option- just need them made to fit.

[ZeroiaSD]

I personally like Aether Elemental and Earth Elemental. You can even have your familiar maintain the same shape it has it's base form if you go with elementals. Aether is great because it can launch you or your party barbarian 480 ft with its standard action. Personally I love the idea of my familiar evolving into an invisible Barbarian cannon, but that's me.

Yea, this is pretty good. 50 feet per action? And it's a small, so it threatens? And *permanently* invisible, in a way that works against blindsight? Very nice!

I think Aether may be the best 5th level option for sure.