Help with 4th level feat

[dnd2016]

Are there any feats that stand out for a lore bard if i am not dipping? Could be offensive or defensive.

[uraniumrooster]

Are there any feats that stand out for a lore bard if i am not dipping? Could be offensive or defensive.

Most of the time for a lore bard I'd recommend just increasing your Cha at level 4 to get a better saving throw DC, since most of the bard's spells rely on saving throws, but it depends on your role in the party.

Inspiring Leader can be good for a Bard, or Healer if you find yourself doing a lot of healing and want to conserve spell slots.

Lucky is always a great feat, for any class.

[Zman]

If you have SCAG available, I recommend Magic Initiate Sorcerer(Sorcerer) for Greenflame Blade, Firebolt, and a first level spell like Shield etc.

[dnd2016]

If you have SCAG available, I recommend Magic Initiate Sorcerer(Sorcerer) for Greenflame Blade, Firebolt, and a first level spell like Shield etc.

2 fire spells and 1 use of shield a day.....meh

[JumboWheat01]

I agree with what uraniumrooster is saying, though I will add in Ritual Caster for Wizard if you don't have a wizard or tome warlock on your party. That opens up a lot of little utility things that won't eat up your spell slots.

Getting Moderately Armored (I think that's the right one,) will snag you Medium Armor, which you don't get as a Lore Bard if you're not keen on improving your dex. If you are, I can recommend snagging Weapon Mastery and grabbing yourself a nice Heavy Crossbow for that sweet d10 damage.

Or you could always throw on Skilled, just make it so you pretty much don't need to cast spells ever unless you're trying to kill something. Even then, you might just fast-talk something into killing itself.

[Zman]

2 fire spells and 1 use of shield a day.....meh

Good At Will melee and ranged damage for a class that runs out of resources and has pitiful damage options. If you don't like two fire spells, pick Freezing Ray instead of Firebolt.

Our Lore Bard is thrilled with the choice and has contributed well to combats especially when spell slots run short.

Firebolt definitely beats a light crossbow at range and Greenflame Blade is leagues better than a basic Rapier attack.

For a feat it shores up the major weaknesses of the Lore Bard.

[JumboWheat01]

A Lore Bard could also snag those with their free Bonus Magical Secrets. And they don't even need to be from the same class. They could get Greenflame Blade from a sorcerer and Eldritch Blast from a warlock, without blowing an ASI on it.

[Zman]

A Lore Bard could also snag those with their free Bonus Magical Secrets. And they don't even need to be from the same class. They could get Greenflame Blade from a sorcerer and Eldritch Blast from a warlock, without blowing an ASI on it.

But that comes with a massive opt unity cost of all the higher level spells from other lists. The feat is the Bargain IMO.

[JumboWheat01]

The Lore Bard's Bonus Magical Secrets is at level 6, isn't it? Just what high level spells would you be snagging with that? Fireball? Because Level 3 is the highest you could snag. The way cantrips scale with level, I'd put them above something like that any day.

[Zman]

The Lore Bard's Bonus Magical Secrets is at level 6, isn't it? Just what high level spells would you be snagging with that? Fireball? Because Level 3 is the highest you could snag. The way cantrips scale with level, I'd put them above something like that any day.

Personally, Haste, Fly, and Counterspell are more appealing. I could see Mass Healing Word or animate Dead. There are a lot of useful spells I'd rather pick up at 6th instead of Cantrips and would rather spend the Feat for them, plus you get them two levels earlier.

[JumboWheat01]

Ooh, I forgot what spell level Mass Healing Word was at. Yeah, that is rather tasty to grab.

[Gtdead]

Ritual caster or Lucky would be my choice.
But I would prefer raising CHA.

[Specter]

Granted, Lucky is the best choice, but it might be low on flavor. Inspiring Leader is a cool choice if you're, well, a leader, Actor is good one for a party face, and Resilient (CON) is good to maintain concentration and survive, in general.

[Biggstick]

The Lore Bard's Bonus Magical Secrets is at level 6, isn't it? Just what high level spells would you be snagging with that? Fireball? Because Level 3 is the highest you could snag. The way cantrips scale with level, I'd put them above something like that any day.

Bard's are the second best Counterspell'ers in the game (with Abjuration Wizards being best). That plus Cutting Words makes Bards incredible at denying an enemy.

Fly is amazing, as is Haste or Mass Healing Word or Spirit Guardians. There are tons of great level 2 spells as well.

Depending on what you're trying to do with your Bard will determine what you should be looking for in a feat. A couple feats that will be extremely useful for you include Magic Initiate (Eldritch Blast any pretty much anything else), Inspiring Leader (Temp hp for the party on a short rest), Lucky, Actor (+1 Cha if you have an odd number Cha), Resilient, and Ritual Caster (Find Familiar and Alarm are great rituals).

Depending on what your Charisma is at though, you should probably consider upping your Charisma though. Getting that DC maxed out should potentially be your highest priority.

[TheFlyingCleric]

Bard's are the best Counterspell'ers in the game. Being able to add Jack of All Trades to the check needed gives Bard's the best odds of being able to Counterspell. That plus Cutting Words makes Bards incredible at denying an enemy.


You forgot Abjuration Wizards. Amend that to 'Second Best Counterspell'ers'.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Lots of great suggestions already. But I wanted to add to this:

Getting Moderately Armored (I think that's the right one,) will snag you Medium Armor, which you don't get as a Lore Bard if you're not keen on improving your dex.
And you get access to shields, which is super useful if your at-will damage relies on cantrips. Go shield and open hand (to access your components). Then stand in the back ranks with a very comfortable 18 or 19 AC (depending on whether you like stealth or not)

It's one of my go-to choices for Lore Bards and Warlocks who don't want/need to raise their DEX past 14.

[Biggstick]

You forgot Abjuration Wizards. Amend that to 'Second Best Counterspell'ers'.

Never noticed that level 10 portion of Abjuration. Guess my eyes just glossed over it to the spell resistance. Thanks for the correction!

[dnd2016]

Do i really need an attack cantrip?. My dex is 18, so i get +4 to hit and damage with my crossbow

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Do i really need an attack cantrip?. My dex is 18, so i get +4 to hit and damage with my crossbow

With that much DEX, no you don't really. But you could get really good use out of Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade since you only have one attack anyway, if you're willing to go into melee once in a while.

[dnd2016]

With that much DEX, no you don't really. But you could get really good use out of Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade since you only have one attack anyway, if you're willing to go into melee once in a while.

Yeah, i do like those two

[Ace Jackson]

Do i really need an attack cantrip?. My dex is 18, so i get +4 to hit and damage with my crossbow

This may be so, however, you are a lore bard, you do not get more then one attack per turn. This means that if you use a heavy crossbow, with sharpshooter, the most you can ever deal in a round with a standard attack, without MCing for extra attack, is 1d10+15 if you use a heavy crossbow. Alternatively, with an attack cantrip, you can deal up to 4d10 with firebolt. 20.5 vs 22, and that while maximizing the damage for the (non-magic) weapon, and doing nothing for the cantrip. Grant you, if you do not expect to advance past the second upgrade (13 IIRC), which would be 3d10 for 16.5, you would be better off specializing with your heavy crossbow, as it can bring the damage earlier at the expense of hit chance.

[Sillybird99]

With an 18 dex u don't really need damage cantrips or medium armour. Warcaster is a good pick up for keeping concentration and action economy. Healer can be good for non magical healing. Defensive duelist is decent if you fight in melee often (not recommended). Ritual caster is nice for utility and saving spell slots.

[Shining Wrath]

There's something to be said for Warcaster if you have to mix it up.
Ritual Caster can add a fair amount of flavor and some utility.

We really do need to know the rest of your party and your role therein. Some feats that give +1 charisma and also a fringe benefit, e.g., Actor, might work if your campaign is role-play or socially intensive.

If your DM throws ancient tomes and what have you into the game, Linguist fits the Lore Bard pretty well. You're the guy who can talk to the demon in abyssal and the elemental in primordial.

[Ruslan]

Actor is only good if you have odd Charisma. I wouldn't bother with it otherwise.

Inspiring Leader is pretty amazing. It totally changes the dynamic of the game, and the level of challenges your party can now tackle. 7-8 hit points may not look like much, but it's free, and can be refreshed every 10 minutes (less than a short rest!). If you're looking from the perspective of pure POWAH, that's the one you need.

Magic Initiate is flavorful, and pretty powerful as well. Find Familiar + SCAG offensive cantrips.

Ritual Caster, again, gives you Find Familiar and a few other good rituals for nice utility.

Lucky ... people like Lucky, but honestly, I'd rather have +2 Charisma over Lucky. The former gives you 3 daily rerolls, while the latter gives you +1 use of Bardic Inspiration per short rest (so about +3 per day), +1 to save DCs and a bunch of other things. Lucky doesn't really give you any new capabilities, nothing a charisma boost wouldn't give.

[RickAllison]

You forgot Abjuration Wizards. Amend that to 'Second Best Counterspell'ers'.

At the highest levels, that is not true. While bards only get to use half of their proficiency bonus, don't forget that their spell ability, and thus the ability check they make as part of Counterspell, is Charisma-based. One of the 8th level spells that Bards get is Glibness, which makes them unable to roll lower than a 15 on a Charisma check. For the hour that the Glibness spell lasts, a Bard with at least 14 Charisma will pass the check.

So while Abjuration Wizards can at-will Counterspell better, Bards can make it so it is impossible to fail.

[Zman]

This may be so, however, you are a lore bard, you do not get more then one attack per turn. This means that if you use a heavy crossbow, with sharpshooter, the most you can ever deal in a round with a standard attack, without MCing for extra attack, is 1d10+15 if you use a heavy crossbow. Alternatively, with an attack cantrip, you can deal up to 4d10 with firebolt. 20.5 vs 22, and that while maximizing the damage for the (non-magic) weapon, and doing nothing for the cantrip. Grant you, if you do not expect to advance past the second upgrade (13 IIRC), which would be 3d10 for 16.5, you would be better off specializing with your heavy crossbow, as it can bring the damage earlier at the expense of hit chance.

How does a Lore Bard get proficiency in a Heavy Crossbow?

[JumboWheat01]

How does a Lore Bard get proficiency in a Heavy Crossbow?

Weapon Master. Also lets you snag other interesting toys, like whips, at the same time.

Work that DEX. Work it hard.

[Zman]

Weapon Master. Also lets you snag other interesting toys, like whips, at the same time.

Work that DEX. Work it hard.

Now it takes two feats for a Lore Bard to be bad at ranged.... Weapon Master is pretty much worthless as a Feat IMO. If a Lore Bard wants to be able to deal damage, Magic Initiate Sorcerer or Bard for Greenflame Blade and either Forebolt or Eldritch Blast is the better option.

[Ace Jackson]

How does a Lore Bard get proficiency in a Heavy Crossbow?

Presumably by weapon master or 250 GP and a month's downtime in training. That post was only an offhand observation, trying to be as generous to the idea of a ranged weapon using lore bard as I could be. Using a light crossbow brings the damage average down from 20.5 to 19.5, which incidentally is still higher then the 3d10 cantrip's 16.5, and even if using two feats to enable the use of a heavy crossbow as originally posited, using the ASI's of 4 and 8 for weapon master and sharpshooter, the damage average comes out to 19.5 with 20.5 being reached at the next ASI, as it can be used to bring the dex up to twenty, alternatively, just picking up sharpshooter right here would yield an average damage 18.5 out of a light crossbow. Once more this is at the expense of hit chance.

And yes I am aware of the conceit in this post supposing the sharpshooter feature is always used, and yes, the numbers drop drastically otherwise. Finally yes, this is not DPR, and I do not claim it to be.

[dnd2016]

Thx guys, very useful posts.I guess I'm trying to compare weapons vs. attack cantrips. cantrips gets me +4 to attack only while my sword or crossbow gets me more pluses to hit and my dex added to damage.but I do see your point on cantrip scaling on later levels

[dnd2016]

We have Paladin, Ranger,Druid,rogue,sorcerer the

[JumboWheat01]

Presumably by weapon master or 250 GP and a month's downtime in training. That post was only an offhand observation, trying to be as generous to the idea of a ranged weapon using lore bard as I could be. Using a light crossbow brings the damage average down from 20.5 to 19.5, which incidentally is still higher then the 3d10 cantrip's 16.5, and even if using two feats to enable the use of a heavy crossbow as originally posited, using the ASI's of 4 and 8 for weapon master and sharpshooter, the damage average comes out to 19.5 with 20.5 being reached at the next ASI, as it can be used to bring the dex up to twenty, alternatively, just picking up sharpshooter right here would yield an average damage 18.5 out of a light crossbow. Once more this is at the expense of hit chance.

And yes I am aware of the conceit in this post supposing the sharpshooter feature is always used, and yes, the numbers drop drastically otherwise. Finally yes, this is not DPR, and I do not claim it to be.

Actually, I'm pretty sure by RAW, you can't spend downtime training weapons, only languages and tools.

[Ace Jackson]

Actually, I'm pretty sure by RAW, you can't spend downtime training weapons, only languages and tools.

Seems esoteric, but I can see now that it was not defined in engine. You're right on that count, but I maintain the overall statement, the cantrips are better for hit chance compared to a sharpshooter ranged weapon, but the sharpshooter ranged weapon damage for this character peaks both earlier and higher then a standard cantrip. Not necessarily in DPR, but in the numbers after a hit is confirmed.

[uraniumrooster]

We have Paladin, Ranger,Druid,rogue,sorcerer the

Hmm, based on your party's makeup, I would say if you're set on taking a feat, Inspiring Leader could be great for your group, or Ritual Caster (Find Familiar and another 1st level ritual from the Wizard list) for a bit of added utility since you don't have a Wizard or Tomelock. Although, I still think boosting your Charisma to 20 should be your top priority, to get better save DCs for your Bardly debuffs, and more uses of Bardic Inspiration.

Your party should be dealing loads of Damage already, so getting Magic Initiate for offensive cantrips seems a little bit redundant to me. You're better off helping the party through battlefield control, buffing and debuffing.

Between Paladin, Ranger, Druid and Bard, you have no shortage of healing, so the Healer feat is less valuable overall. Make sure to tell your Ranger and Druid to keep Goodberry prepped, and before every Long Rest they should burn all their remaining slots creating berries. They last 24 hours, so after your long rest you have 16ish hours left to eat them. It makes for amazing out-of-combat healing, especially if one of them dips a level in Life Cleric, and as an added bonus you don't have to carry any rations. You could always take Magic Initiate for Goodberry yourself (or pick it up with Magical Secrets at 6th), but that seems silly when you already have two classes that have access to it.

Warcaster or Resilient (Con) can be good for maintaining concentration, and Lucky is nice to have, but I don't think they'd be as immediately helpful to the group.

[djreynolds]

Charisma. What else do you need? Inspire your friends and let them do the heavy lifting, you take care of the rest.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Make sure to tell your Ranger and Druid to keep Goodberry prepped, and before every Long Rest they should burn all their remaining slots creating berries.

I understand the logic, but my DM side is laughing maniacally thinking of all the ways I could interrupt the long rest while the party has no spells left.

[dnd2016]

[QUOTE= Lucky ... people like Lucky, but honestly, I'd rather have +2 Charisma over Lucky. The former gives you 3 daily rerolls, while the latter gives you +1 use of Bardic Inspiration per short rest (so about +3 per day), +1 to save DCs and a bunch of other things. Lucky doesn't really give you any new capabilities, nothing a charisma boost wouldn't give.[/QUOTE]

Very good point, but lucky can stop a crit 3 times a day

[Citan]

Are there any feats that stand out for a lore bard if i am not dipping? Could be offensive or defensive.

Hi all ;)
Pardon me for the probable redundancy of some (hope not all) of my thoughts.

First, I would rather advise you to up CHA because it will make you better overall. With that out of the way, by order of (personal) preference...

1. Lucky: because sometimes you just want to be sure that your spell succeeds. Useful every day of your life.
2. Resilient (Constitution): because most good Bard spells are concentration.
3. Magic Initiate: many many good options with this feat:
- Wizard (Find Familiar, melee cantrips, Mold Earth, Shape Water)
- Cleric (Bless, guidance)
- Sorcerer (Mage Armor) or Warlock (Hex) and a great choice of cantrips, my preferred being Shocking Grasp (perfect when you want to move away), Chill Touch (low damage but nice riders), Frostbite or the obvious Eldricht Blast.
4. Inspiring Leader: in fact this is one of my favorites, but it's more interesting to take at later levels imo. Still useful every day of your carrier.
5. Defensive Duelist: good use for your reaction and solid defense buff.
6. Warcaster or Spell Sniper: only if you plan on learning nice attack spells/cantrips later with Magic Secrets.
7. Ritual Caster: in fact this feat could (should) be placed much higher, but it's really dependent on your campaign settings and DM. If he's stingy you'll rarely put your hands on ritual spells... If you think he'll play along then this feat goes up as my fourth best suggestion, just behind Magic Initiate. ;)

Very good point, but lucky can stop a crit 3 times a day
Or ensure that THE spell you're casting on the BBEG to trivialize the encounter will stick (such as Bestow Curse: disadvantage on saving throw to prepare pal's nasty spells ^^).

EDIT (now that I took the time to read back all thread)

Thx guys, very useful posts.I guess I'm trying to compare weapons vs. attack cantrips. cantrips gets me +4 to attack only while my sword or crossbow gets me more pluses to hit and my dex added to damage.but I do see your point on cantrip scaling on later levels
That's why people advise melee cantrips from SCAG which allow you to make an authentic melee weapon attack with added perks. :)


We have Paladin, Ranger,Druid,rogue,sorcerer the
Ok. Then I update my opinion. As long as you think your DM will play along, Ritual Caster is by far the best choice because versatility. Otherwise Inspiring Leader. :)

[dnd2016]

Hi all ;)
Pardon me for the probable redundancy of some (hope not all) of my thoughts.

First, I would rather advise you to up CHA because it will make you better overall. With that out of the way, by order of (personal) preference...

1. Lucky: because sometimes you just want to be sure that your spell succeeds. Useful every day of your life.
2. Resilient (Constitution): because most good Bard spells are concentration.
3. Magic Initiate: many many good options with this feat:
- Wizard (Find Familiar, melee cantrips, Mold Earth, Shape Water)
- Cleric (Bless, guidance)
- Sorcerer (Mage Armor) or Warlock (Hex) and a great choice of cantrips, my preferred being Shocking Grasp (perfect when you want to move away), Chill Touch (low damage but nice riders), Frostbite or the obvious Eldricht Blast.
4. Inspiring Leader: in fact this is one of my favorites, but it's more interesting to take at later levels imo. Still useful every day of your carrier.
5. Defensive Duelist: good use for your reaction and solid defense buff.
6. Warcaster or Spell Sniper: only if you plan on learning nice attack spells/cantrips later with Magic Secrets.
7. Ritual Caster: in fact this feat could (should) be placed much higher, but it's really dependent on your campaign settings and DM. If he's stingy you'll rarely put your hands on ritual spells... If you think he'll play along then this feat goes up as my fourth best suggestion, just behind Magic Initiate. ;)

Or ensure that THE spell you're casting on the BBEG to trivialize the encounter will stick (such as Bestow Curse: disadvantage on saving throw to prepare pal's nasty spells ^^).

EDIT (now that I took the time to read back all thread)

That's why people advise melee cantrips from SCAG which allow you to make an authentic melee weapon attack with added perks. :)


Ok. Then I update my opinion. As long as you think your DM will play along, Ritual Caster is by far the best choice because versatility. Otherwise Inspiring Leader. :)

If my dm plays along?

[R.Shackleford]

Are there any feats that stand out for a lore bard if i am not dipping? Could be offensive or defensive.

Hmmm...

Resilence Con: You shouldn't be doing OAs and +Prof is better than +Advantage on a save.

Alert: Pure win.

Crossbow Expert: For when you want to shoot something in the face. Mix with sharpshooter a d you can (at least) once per encounter pull off a 2d6+10+20 piecing ranged attack (:) loaded crossbows). That ain't too bad.

Defensive Deulist if you don't have the shield spell.gets better later on.

Grappler: Depending on your build your Lore Bard could be one of the best Grappler in the game. Grapple + melee spell attack = win (advantage versus grappled creatures). Inflict wounds from the cleric list is absolutely delicious when you have advantage, 3d10 first level (average 16.5 w/o crit, 33 with crit) +1d10 damage per level above 1.

Lucky: Boring but good, really good.

Moderately Armored: Great for getting a shield and medium armor, depends on your dex.

Mounted Combat: Really nice if you go that way.

Oservant: Nice nice nice.

Sharpshooter: Hand crossbow, if you want to fall back and shoot. Best with good dex.

Spell Sniper: The best this ability gives you is to ignore all but full cover with spells. This is either the best thing ever or useless.

Shield Master: there are some builds for this that makes lore bards redonkulous but I doubt yours is set up for it.

[Citan]

If my dm plays along?
Well, I meant by that, if you think you will have many chances to learn Ritual spells thanks to DM's complicity, since unless I'm mistaken you don't have any Wizard in your party you could learn from (and then why would you bother with the feat anyways? ^^).

Depending on how the campaign is managed and how the DM views magic, you could learn ritual spells as quest rewards, by going study in a prestigious library, finding odd spells in treasure chest, becoming an apprentice of a renowned wizard, etc...

Essentially what you can learn depends on what occasions you find during your campaign, so it's DM dependent. :)


Spell Sniper: The best this ability gives you is to ignore all but full cover with spells. This is either the best thing ever or useless.
Except that it works only for spells using ranged spell attacks. Which are nearly non-existent on the Bard's spelllist.
So it's good only if a player intends on learning powerful spell attacks later with Magic Secrets. Otherwise, you use a feat to get basically one "no-cover" cantrip. Not worth it imo (better take Magic Initiate or Ritual Caster in that case).

[R.Shackleford]

Except that it works only for spells using ranged spell attacks. Which are nearly non-existent on the Bard's spelllist.
So it's good only if a player intends on learning powerful spell attacks later with Magic Secrets. Otherwise, you use a feat to get basically one "no-cover" cantrip. Not worth it imo (better take Magic Initiate or Ritual Caster in that case).


It's best with the Lore Bard or Bard in general. They can pick up range attack spells and they gain a new attack cantrip. The bard specifically gets to choose what spells they will have to use this feat with and don't have to worry about spell lists.

[Citan]

It's best with the Lore Bard or Bard in general. They can pick up range attack spells and they gain a new attack cantrip. The bard specifically gets to choose what spells they will have to use this feat with and don't have to worry about spell lists.
Absolutely not, that's only your personal opinion. :)
Considering that "attack roll" spells come in most cases from Magic Secrets, and considering how many great spells could be poached with Magic Secrets compared to the only 6 (8 for Lore) "slots" for poaching, it makes choosing an "attack roll" spell a non-trivial option.

That's why I said that Spell Sniper is worth it ONLY if the player actually intends to learn attack roll spells with Magic Secrets later. Which is absolutely not a given for any Bard. If one just want to learn an attack cantrip Magic Initiate or actual lvl 1 dip is far better.

It's on the contrary for Sorcerers or Wizards that Spell Sniper is the best because they naturally learn many attack roll spells.

[R.Shackleford]

Absolutely not, that's only your personal opinion. :)
Considering that "attack roll" spells come in most cases from Magic Secrets, and considering how many great spells could be poached with Magic Secrets compared to the only 6 (8 for Lore) "slots" for poaching, it makes choosing an "attack roll" spell a non-trivial option.

That's why I said that Spell Sniper is worth it ONLY if the player actually intends to learn attack roll spells with Magic Secrets later. Which is absolutely not a given for any Bard. If one just want to learn an attack cantrip Magic Initiate or actual lvl 1 dip is far better.

It's on the contrary for Sorcerers or Wizards that Spell Sniper is the best because they naturally learn many attack roll spells.

All other classes already have attack roll spells that are their best option or really good (cantrip and spells) most of the bards spells are not attack rolls and they don't have any good damaging cantrips.

Use one choice from magical secrets to grab a spell like Guiding Bolt, Scorching Ray, or whatever spell you like. You don't need to pick up anymore if you get one that scales well.

This is something a bard would do anyways. The bard can get a lot of great spells but they already have some really nice ones that buff and debilitate.

Spell Sniper allows the bard to not use up a Magical Secrets option for a cantrip (long range Eldritch Blast is nice damage upgrade from vicious mockery).

Is it the be all end all of feats? No. But the Bard has the most to gain from it except for maybe the cleric... Which even then the Lore Bard needs it more than any cleric as the Lore Bard will typically be low armor and get the Hell away from enemies and the Cleric will have at least med armor and shields.

[Citan]

All other classes already have attack roll spells that are their best option or really good (cantrip and spells) most of the bards spells are not attack rolls and they don't have any good damaging cantrips.

...
Ok, that's EXACTLY what I said.
This is a discussion of deaf people.
My opinion in a nutshell.

1) Bard's spell list has nearly no (or none at all) attack roll spells.

2) Taking an attack spell with Magic Secrets is not an obvious choice for any Bard because there are so many good spells to learn at every level (even truer for cantrips, it's a waste of a Magic Secrets most of the time).
It will always depend on party composition and playstyle.
For example, if party already has a Sorcerer and Wizard, why bother with attack spells? You could dish maybe even more damage with Conjure Animals, or poach Slow to help your caster pals hit their target.
If, on the contrary, the party is melee-heavy, with no ranged caster then Lore Bard should indeed poach attack spells (and AOE) to complement, whereas Valor Bard may prefer Crusader's Mantle for everyone (and later Circle of Power \o/).

3) A Bard wanting a good attack cantrip can very well take Magic Initiate instead, granting TWO cantrips (so you can even learn a melee one) and a useful spell: Warlock (Hex), Sorcerer (Mage Armor, Magic Missiles), Wizard (Magic Missiles, Find Familiar). Whereas, "by default", Spell Sniper will apply only on the freebie cantrip.
Considering that the Bard is not supposed to be a damage dealer, and the not so often occurence of having people behind cover, this is using a very precious resource (feat) on a choice that will shine only in niche situations (Bard has no spells, no bow, cannot attack in melee, wants to range attack someone behind a cover).

4) Therefore taking Spell Sniper to get an attack cantrip is a waste of a feat most of the time (= unless player has a precise build in mind and already decided to use Magic Secrets on attack spells later), considering a) you have as good or better feat to get attack cantrip b) more generally, many good feats for a Bard that compete for the place.
This is especially true for a feat taken at 4th level character, since the cantrips won't ever be that better than a single DEX attack most of the time. Becomes worthwhile if taken at 8th or 12th though.

5) Whereas Spell Sniper for Sorcerer or Wizard would make much more sense because they will have many (many) more spells that can use the feat.
Done. :)

[R.Shackleford]

...
Ok, that's EXACTLY what I said.
This is a discussion of deaf people.
My opinion in a nutshell.

1) Bard's spell list has nearly no (or none at all) attack roll spells.

2) Taking an attack spell with Magic Secrets is not an obvious choice for any Bard because there are so many good spells to learn at every level (even truer for cantrips, it's a waste of a Magic Secrets most of the time).
It will always depend on party composition and playstyle.
For example, if party already has a Sorcerer and Wizard, why bother with attack spells? You could dish maybe even more damage with Conjure Animals, or poach Slow to help your caster pals hit their target.
If, on the contrary, the party is melee-heavy, with no ranged caster then Lore Bard should indeed poach attack spells (and AOE) to complement, whereas Valor Bard may prefer Crusader's Mantle for everyone (and later Circle of Power \o/).

3) A Bard wanting a good attack cantrip can very well take Magic Initiate instead, granting TWO cantrips (so you can even learn a melee one) and a useful spell: Warlock (Hex), Sorcerer (Mage Armor, Magic Missiles), Wizard (Magic Missiles, Find Familiar). Whereas, "by default", Spell Sniper will apply only on the freebie cantrip.
Considering that the Bard is not supposed to be a damage dealer, and the not so often occurence of having people behind cover, this is using a very precious resource (feat) on a choice that will shine only in niche situations (Bard has no spells, no bow, cannot attack in melee, wants to range attack someone behind a cover).

4) Therefore taking Spell Sniper to get an attack cantrip is a waste of a feat most of the time (= unless player has a precise build in mind and already decided to use Magic Secrets on attack spells later), considering a) you have as good or better feat to get attack cantrip b) more generally, many good feats for a Bard that compete for the place.
This is especially true for a feat taken at 4th level character, since the cantrips won't ever be that better than a single DEX attack most of the time. Becomes worthwhile if taken at 8th or 12th though.

5) Whereas Spell Sniper for Sorcerer or Wizard would make much more sense because they will have many (many) more spells that can use the feat.
Done. :)

You only need one decent attack roll spell and you are set. You don't need a lot. Spell Sniper gives you an attack roll cantrip (that is higher damage than VM). This gives your Lore Bard A) help with at-will damage and B) help with spell slot damage. All while staying the Hell away from danger.

Guiding Bolt is (level 1) 4d6 + 1d6/level and can crit (and help others crit).

Scorching Ray is (level 2) 6d6 + 2d6/Level and can crit and attack mutlple targets.

Use Magical Secrets for one attack roll spell and you are golden. A lot of Bards I've seen already do this so I don't see this as anything extreme.

Covering your bases, being able to be a hack of all trades is exactly what this feat gives you and that is exactly what a Bard is meant to be.

[Citan]

You only need one decent attack roll spell and you are set. You don't need a lot. Spell Sniper gives you an attack roll cantrip (that is higher damage than VM). This gives your Lore Bard A) help with at-will damage and B) help with spell slot damage. All while staying the Hell away from danger.

Guiding Bolt is (level 1) 4d6 + 1d6/level and can crit (and help others crit).

Scorching Ray is (level 2) 6d6 + 2d6/Level and can crit and attack mutlple targets.

Use Magical Secrets for one attack roll spell and you are golden. A lot of Bards I've seen already do this so I don't see this as anything extreme.

Covering your bases, being able to be a hack of all trades is exactly what this feat gives you and that is exactly what a Bard is meant to be.
Like I said, you can get an attack cantrip with many other ways. You could even get the attack spell with Magic Initiate. You indeed don't get the benefits of ignoring cover and doubling distance, so it's a different deal though, but you can still upcast it and keep your Magic Secrets. :)

I don't say what you expose is a bad choice overall. If people like to play with it, good for them. Being a popular choice around you does not make it the "best" choice though.

I say this is generally a bad choice at lvl 4 (unless you got very good roll stats so you don't care about bumping stats anyways), and it is a choice that makes senses overall only when you take attack spells in addition to the cantrip (a statement you obviously agree with by the way, since you tell it yourself).

Meaning that you make this choice because you want to cover an obvious lack of damage in party composition (again, we agree on the fact that a good Bard uses Magic Secrets to fill the gaps in a party) but want to fill this while staying away.

Which is, yet again, not an automatic/obvious choice, especially since the Bard has MANY other ways to deal good damage while keeping far from melee.

Said otherwise, any Bard that would choose this in a party having a Sorcerer and a Warlock has perfectly the right to do so, but cannot pretend it's a good choice for the party mechanically speaking. It's just so he himself can have fun, which is a very legitimate goal though. :)
Opposite example, a Lore Bard in a party with no such caster nor Sharpshooter would make one of the best uses of his class abilities to follow the path you propose.
Here lies the difference of opinion.