6th level Illusionist ability...useless?

[AvatarVecna]

Had a player in my IRL game complaining that the way I'm ruling Minor Illusion (any particular casting is stuck in the 5 ft cube it was cast into) makes the 6th level ability useless (since I'm ruling that it allows you to change the square it's in, but you can't make the illusion move the whole distance between the original square and the new one), since said 6th level ability was already essentially useless for Silent Image; they also insisted that, with my ruling, it was miles worse than the other 6th level abilities, but I'm just not seeing it.

The way I'm understanding the 6th lvl Illusionist ability, it basically means that if you cast an illusion spell, you can "recast" it, with the only limit being that you still use the original duration. For instance, it would allow you to change a Silent Image without moving the image anywhere, or it would allow you to change the target of an Invisibility spell as long as the spell hasn't ended.

Am I reading this ability wrong? Are the other 6th lvl abilities really that much better than the illusionists? Is my ruling really gimping Minor Illusion past the point of usefulness?

[MaxWilson]

Are you kidding? The 6th level ability is the whole reason I'd consider taking illusionist in the first place. I'll mention just two applications out of dozens:

(1) Turn your whole party into at-will shapeshifters for 8 hours with Seeming. If you thought Mystique was cool in X-Men... now everybody in the party changes their whole appearance whenever you concentrate briefly. (You can do this to yourself with Disguise Self, too.)

(2) Project Image lets you conduct risk-free scouting and teleport at-will within your line of sight or to any location you have seen before (out to 500 miles). All you have to do is concentrate briefly and poof, you just change the parameters of the spell, which in this case means the location.

Other interesting illusion spells include Major Image VI, Creation, Programmed Image, Magic Mouth, Mirage Arcane, and Simulacrum.

Edit: also, if I take your words literally RE: "recast", it makes Mirror Image + Malleable Illusion pretty nifty too, since you get your other images back. Maybe Hypnotic Pattern too. I think you probably don't mean it that way though.

[uraniumrooster]

I don't see anything wrong with the way you're ruling it. Minor Illusion is pretty clearly described as a stationary effect, occurring inside a 5' cube, and Malleable Illusions allows you to change the illusion however you want but still requires you to follow the original parameters of the spell. So, moving a Minor Illusion from one 5' cube to another 5' cube would essentially just have it pop from one cube over into the other, as having it animate actually moving from square A to square B would be outside the parameters of the spell by crossing into all the squares in between. If a player wanted to use Malleable Illusions to move it into an immediately adjacent square, I might allow them to manipulate the image to look like it's moving (say, their image of a boulder rolls from one square into another), but it'd limit the movement to just 5' per turn (or 10' if they use haste I suppose).

Honestly, Malleable Illusions isn't that useful for Minor Illusion to begin with, since it's a Cantrip and they can just re-cast it and change the nature of the illusion by creating a new one. It's mostly a way to save spell slots when you cast other illusions by giving the caster the ability to re-purpose them instead of casting new ones. It also plays well with the core concept of the Illusionist by giving players some flexibility to get creative.

[Crgaston]

That really is a poorly defined/crappy L6 ability. "Parameters" I would rule to include location. It isn't that helpful with Minor Illusion... You could change the form and location of the image, or make it into a sound.

Is the player wanting it to move naturally? That's a 1st level spell... Silent image.

Actually, now that I think about it... With Minor Illusion...

There's a statue of a lion in the hallway. It vanishes, and a lion roars behind the target. They turn to look, and when they turn back, the statue has changed shape and position. For example. That could be kinda freaky.

Illusions strongly rely on a cooperative story telling between players and the DM. With an adversarial DM, illusions are super weak.

[AvatarVecna]

That really is a poorly defined/crappy L6 ability. "Parameters" I would rule to include location. It isn't that helpful with Minor Illusion... You could change the form and location of the image, or make it into a sound.

I would like to point out that the Illusionist's level 2 ability allows you to do both sight and sound with Minor Illusion.


Illusions strongly rely on a cooperative story telling between players and the DM. With an adversarial DM, illusions are super weak.

I absolutely agree. I just don't feel that letting the player move Minor Illusion the distance between two far apart spaces is reasonable, because (depending on exactly how it's being used) it's either ripping off Silent Image or (if being used as a disguise) Disguise Self. At least part of the complaint is that it doesn't feel very special for a specialized illusionist to not be able to just use Minor Illusion for small things all day if MI's effect is stuck in whatever square it was cast into and can't move around. I'd be perfectly willing to allow bigger effects...as long as he actually used the higher level spells that are actually specifically made for the purpose, and with which you can use the 6th level ability to alter the spell as long as the duration hasn't run out.

Is it unreasonable that I'm not allowing Minor Illusion to leave the square it was cast into, but rather that I'm essentially requiring an additional casting of a cantrip?

[uraniumrooster]

Is it unreasonable that I'm not allowing Minor Illusion to leave the square it was cast into, but rather that I'm essentially requiring an additional casting of a cantrip?

Nope. The way I read Malleable Illusions, the only benefit of using it on Minor Illusion would be the ability to change your illusion without actually re-casting it, so you wouldn't need the Somatic/Material Components. That in itself could be a huge boon for an Illusionist who can make use of the subtlety. But, anything else you could do by applying Malleable Illusions to Minor Illusion can be accomplished by just re-casting it, and since it's a cantrip, you can do that at-will anyway.

I don't think you're ruling it incorrectly or unfairly at all.

I also think Illusionist is one of the most powerful Wizard schools due to Malleable Illusions and Illusory Reality. Malleable Illusions applied to Silent Image, Major Image, any of the options MaxWilson described, and any number of other possibilities, is amazing. As a very simple use, the Wizard can refresh a Silent Image when their foes have seen through it, creating a new Illusion without expending another spell slot. It allows Illusionists to be extremely spell-slot efficient, and its power only grows as the player starts to get creative with it. It's just not super useful for Minor Illusion, and it sounds to me like your player might be treating Minor Illusion as basically just a smaller version of Silent Image, when they actually have very different parameters.

[Crgaston]

I would like to point out that the Illusionist's level 2 ability allows you to do both sight and sound with Minor Illusion.



I absolutely agree. I just don't feel that letting the player move Minor Illusion the distance between two far apart spaces is reasonable, because (depending on exactly how it's being used) it's either ripping off Silent Image or (if being used as a disguise) Disguise Self. At least part of the complaint is that it doesn't feel very special for a specialized illusionist to not be able to just use Minor Illusion for small things all day if MI's effect is stuck in whatever square it was cast into and can't move around. I'd be perfectly willing to allow bigger effects...as long as he actually used the higher level spells that are actually specifically made for the purpose, and with which you can use the 6th level ability to alter the spell as long as the duration hasn't run out.

Is it unreasonable that I'm not allowing Minor Illusion to leave the square it was cast into, but rather that I'm essentially requiring an additional casting of a cantrip?

I think you're doing it right. The L6 ability requires an action, same as recasting the cantrip. Fluidly mobile illusions are provided for by silent image and other higher level spells. MaxWilson points out some outstanding uses of Malleable Illusions. It's not nearly as crappy as I thought, just not particularly
applicable to the cantrip.

[AvatarVecna]

Nope. The way I read Malleable Illusions, the only benefit of using it on Minor Illusion would be the ability to change your illusion without actually re-casting it, so you wouldn't need the Somatic/Material Components. That in itself could be a huge boon for an Illusionist who can make use of the subtlety. But, anything else you could do by applying Malleable Illusions to Minor Illusion can be accomplished by just re-casting it, and since it's a cantrip, you can do that at-will anyway.

I don't think you're ruling it incorrectly or unfairly at all.

I also think Illusionist is one of the most powerful Wizard schools due to Malleable Illusions and Illusory Reality. Malleable Illusions applied to Silent Image, Major Image, any of the options MaxWilson described, and any number of other possibilities, is amazing. As a very simple use, the Wizard can refresh a Silent Image when their foes have seen through it, creating a new Illusion without expending another spell slot. It allows Illusionists to be extremely spell-slot efficient, and its power only grows as the player starts to get creative with it. It's just not super useful for Minor Illusion, and it sounds to me like your player might be treating Minor Illusion as basically just a smaller version of Silent Image, when they actually have very different parameters.

I didn't even consider this! It's essentially applying free Subtle metamagic retroactively to already-cast illusions! It's even better than I thought.

[uraniumrooster]

I didn't even consider this! It's essentially applying free Subtle metamagic retroactively to already-cast illusions! It's even better than I thought.

Yep :smallsmile:

The Illusionist abilities tend to have a lot of less-than-obvious uses that can be really strong when applied creatively. They're harder to quantify than, say, the Necromancer or Diviner abilities though, and may not seem as strong at first, but in the right hands they can be downright amazing.

Edit: Full disclosure, Illusionist is easily my favorite class and has been since 2nd-ed, so my posts are as completely biased as they sound.

[MaxWilson]

Yep :smallsmile:

The Illusionist abilities tend to have a lot of less-than-obvious uses that can be really strong when applied creatively. They're harder to quantify than, say, the Necromancer or Diviner abilities though, and may not seem as strong at first, but in the right hands they can be downright amazing.

Edit: Full disclosure, Illusionist is easily my favorite class and has been since 2nd-ed, so my posts are as completely biased as they sound.

In some ways they are kind of similar to clerics in 5E. That is, it may not be obvious to you right off how Mirage Arcane + Malleable Illusion is amazing, but just ask your Sharpshooter or Repelling Blast warlock buddy what he would give to be able to rearrange buildings/terrain features and create/remove difficult terrain within 1 square mile at will for up to 10 days... it will blow his mind.

Another non-obvious use of illusions: a lot of things in 5E (including PCs) rely on nova capability to get their jobs done. If you can get the archer to try his Action Surged headshots against what looks like an unarmored-but-faintly-glowing wizard but actually turns out to be the party paladin behind a Seeming spell, you're ahead of the game. Even more so if the party ducks behind total cover for a second while you reshuffle everybody's appearance. Or, if you think Mirror Image is neat, what if there are actually three entirely illusory combatants (from three pre-cast Programmed Illusions, activated/reset on three separate rounds) each doing things that appear to be entirely genuine such as casting Hypnotic Pattern, healing other PCs, or summoning elementals? How would you react as a PC if you were fighting a three Mariliths and you won initiative? Normally you might want to cast Wall of Force or Banishment on a single lone Marilith, but with three of them in play... even if you're pretty sure two of them are illusions, what do you do now?

The illusions won't win the fight by themselves but they can act as a force multiplier, hence the comparison to clerics.

[Vogonjeltz]

Had a player in my IRL game complaining that the way I'm ruling Minor Illusion (any particular casting is stuck in the 5 ft cube it was cast into) makes the 6th level ability useless (since I'm ruling that it allows you to change the square it's in, but you can't make the illusion move the whole distance between the original square and the new one), since said 6th level ability was already essentially useless for Silent Image; they also insisted that, with my ruling, it was miles worse than the other 6th level abilities, but I'm just not seeing it.

The way I'm understanding the 6th lvl Illusionist ability, it basically means that if you cast an illusion spell, you can "recast" it, with the only limit being that you still use the original duration. For instance, it would allow you to change a Silent Image without moving the image anywhere, or it would allow you to change the target of an Invisibility spell as long as the spell hasn't ended.

Am I reading this ability wrong? Are the other 6th lvl abilities really that much better than the illusionists? Is my ruling really gimping Minor Illusion past the point of usefulness?

They could also use Minor Illusion to create a conversation between two (or more) people.

[Segev]

I actually have a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477658-Illusionist-Tricks) where I discuss some tricks I've thought of with Malleable Illusions. Whether you agree they all work or not, they may at least give you and your player some points of discussion.

Regarding minor illusion, I think you should let him change its location, but there's no reason he should be able to give it motion from point to point. Besides, all he can create is an object, not a creature. It really isn't all that spectacular with minor illusion, honestly, but others are right: it does let him "re-cast" without having to actually do anything visible or audible (so he doesn't have to actually let people see him casting a spell to make the illusion change).

It is not useless with silent image, by the by! Silent image only allows, by default, alteration to the illusion to change its location and keep the thing looking "natural" as it moves: your silent image of an ogre will amble from place to place, rather than having to be slid from place to place in an unnatural fashion. However, it will always be an ogre, until you end the spell and start a new one.

Malleable Illusions would allow you to change the ogre to something else silent image can create, without having to cast a new spell slot. It's better than the Warlock's silent image-at-will Invocation in that you can, again, avoid being unsubtle and casting a new effect each time. Worse, in that it still only lasts for 10 min. before you have to spend a new spell slot, and you can't drop concentration on it and pick it back up without spending another spell slot, either.

Hope that helps.

[AvatarVecna]

Regarding minor illusion, I think you should let him change its location, but there's no reason he should be able to give it motion from point to point.

I am perfectly willing to let him change the position of the Minor Illusion; I'm just not willing to let him move it from square to square, as if moving along with him while he walks...well, unless he's leisurely meandering at 5ft/round.

That link is incredibly useful, I'll be sure to direct him to it.

[Segev]

I am perfectly willing to let him change the position of the Minor Illusion; I'm just not willing to let him move it from square to square, as if moving along with him while he walks...well, unless he's leisurely meandering at 5ft/round.Sounds right. And even if he's "meandering at 5 feet/round," he's only able to make the minor illusion jump from place to place. If you're letting him have it move fluidly from place to place, that's very generous even if it takes a round to move it 5 ft. I won't say it's "wrong," but it is generous.


That link is incredibly useful, I'll be sure to direct him to it.I'm glad you find it helpful. :smallsmile:

[Coffee_Dragon]

For what little it's worth, I read Malleable Illusions to say you can change how the illusion looks, not its location. So from a RAW perspective, I wouldn't say you can move a Minor Illusion out of its square at all.

[Segev]

For what little it's worth, I read Malleable Illusions to say you can change how the illusion looks, not its location. So from a RAW perspective, I wouldn't say you can move a Minor Illusion out of its square at all.

I don't have it in front of me right now, but I thought it said something along the lines of being able to change it to anything it could've been when you cast it. That would include changing its location.

[AvatarVecna]

For what little it's worth, I read Malleable Illusions to say you can change how the illusion looks, not its location. So from a RAW perspective, I wouldn't say you can move a Minor Illusion out of its square at all.


I don't have it in front of me right now, but I thought it said something along the lines of being able to change it to anything it could've been when you cast it. That would include changing its location.

Here's the RAW:

"Starting at 6th level, when you cast an illusion spell that has a duration of 1 minutes or longer, you can use your action to change the nature of that illusion (using the spell's normal parameters for the illusion), provided that you can see the illusion."

Officially, RAW says you can "change the nature" of the illusion in question, as long as it fits all the requirements (appropriate duration, you have line of sight on it, etc). It's possible this just refers to letting you change the specific illusory nature of it, but I'm inclined to let you change the origin point/target (if applicable), since I feel those are part of the illusion's nature.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I think "parameter" in this case should be read to mean "constraint", not "variable", so it's reminding you that all normal restrictions apply, not that you're effectively casting the spell all over.

That's how I see the intent behind the whole ability, anyway: you can change your statue of a statue of a goblin to have a nice red hat, not to suddenly be on the other side of the ravine, because the latter wouldn't be "malleability".

[Segev]

I think "parameter" in this case should be read to mean "constraint", not "variable", so it's reminding you that all normal restrictions apply, not that you're effectively casting the spell all over.

That's how I see the intent behind the whole ability, anyway: you can change your statue of a statue of a goblin to have a nice red hat, not to suddenly be on the other side of the ravine, because the latter wouldn't be "malleability".

In this case, the "rulings not rules" nature of 5e does allow both readings, so I am not going to argue the point. The intent may or may not be as you outlined; the RAW do permit the reading I prefer to give it, but it is certainly not the only possible reading.