Help tweaking a debuffer PFS Rogue

[MortalSword]

Hey people just need a little input on a Pathfinder Society Unchained Rogue. The general idea is dish out some serious negatives to my enemies and still do respectable damage. I have a rough idea what I want to do with Intimidate and the gear associated with it so its the rest of the build that I'm working on.

The general plan is Human (No tiefling boon for Taking 10 on intimidates), TWF, Intimidate with Enforcer on a hit, use the Thug Archetype to convert it to frightened, use Brutal Beating to add in Sickened or use a Cruel weapon. Later on Dazzling Display > Shatter defenses looks very appealing to me.

Now here comes the part where I cant decide what I want to do. I don't know if I should go the Enforcer > Sap Adept > Sap Master Route and use a Sap (which can sacrifice a d6 no problem for the sickened) Very feat intensive though, so cant really full attack against FF AC till late in the game. Also has the downside of being completely boned when it comes across something immune to nonlethal damage.

Or do I want to pick up the Blade of Mercy trait and deal nonlethal with no penalties with Slashing only (which cant really sacrifice a d6 sneak attack imho) I would use Kukri's for this method. I would say that these ways of dealing nonlethal are much more effective than getting two merciful weapons due to cost factors. 8k x2 means it doesnt come fully online till at least level 6ish, even later if they are Merciful + Cruel weapons. Also has the option of making them Keen but again you're facing the same cost problem. The upside to this one is you can swap from Nonlethal ---> Lethal without a hitch. I like the flexibility even if its half the SA dice as the other method.

Now for the tricky part, squeezing it all into a feasible build, and having a backup plan when you come across something that's immune to nonlethal, flanking, sneak attacks, mind affecting, fear, or sickness. I haven't given much consideration for what talents this character would use other than Combat Trick to snag another feat. Powerful sneak comes to mind for the Sap Master route. Also what other debuffs methods would you slap on this char? Dirty Trick (and by extention, Agile Maneuvers)? Entanglement? Is it really feasible to slap another "eff you guy" method in here?

Help me out Giants! :P

[Florian]

That´s a bit complicated for little gain, I think.

[Geddy2112]

Why bother with nonlethal and enforcer when you could pick up power attack and cornugon smash? You can still have a sap for nonlethal, but you can intimidate with lethal strikes too, and get extra damage in either case because your power attacking. 13 strength is a hard pill to swallow, but I think it is worth it in the long run.

Dazzling display is a bit meh on anyone that is not an antipaladin, but shatter defenses is bonkers good for your build. Get your first hit, intimidate/frighten, then pile on the sneak attack damage. Dual wield saps or shortswords or kukhris, whatever floats your boat.

Stats on a 15 pt by: 13/16/12/10/14/10. +2 in dex from human, season to taste. I am a bit paranoid about failed will saves hence 14 wis, but you could skate by on a 12. You could even dump int if you don't mind fewer skills. A 13/18/12/8/12/10 is equally functional, and you could swap charisma and intelligence even being an intimidate build. You will be maxing it, and with the favored class bonus a -1 won't really matter at the end of the day.

Feats:
1st: Two weapon fighting, freebie
2nd: Power attack(combat trick)
3rd: free
4th: weapon focus(weapon training)
5th: dazzling display
6th: cornugon smash(retrain a free feat to this, or use ninja combat trick)
7th:free
8th: shatter defenses(retrain a free feat to this, or use ninja combat trick)
9:improved TWF

Powerful sneak is never a bad idea, but the penalties will be harsh. Your Debilitating Injury is debuff enough and you get that in class without a feat. Reducing AC by 4 against the rest of your attacks that round is pretty bonkers good, and it only gets better with time. Mien of despair is a solid rogue talent for any intimidation build. You can use a free feat to get kukhri proficiency if you want those. Resiliency is always a good talent, and you can use a ninja trick to get an additional combat trick. You might even consider skill focus-intimidate.

I know this build is a bit slower to get onboard the fear train, and certainly a lot more is going to be immune to your fear at higher levels. However, you can use your thugs sickened as a stand in for shaken more often than not. The only time you will go for intimidate at lower levels is when frightened is advantageous. At higher levels, you get the best of both worlds and will always be throwing at least one condition on your enemy, stacked on top of debilitating injury to really ruin an opponents day.

[Kurald Galain]

Why bother with nonlethal and enforcer when you could pick up power attack and cornugon smash?
Well, because Enforcer works for free on every single attack, whereas Cornugon requires an immediate action. Also, you eat a sizeable to-hit penalty for (1) using power attack, and (2) having to invest point buy into strength.

Using nonlethal damage is actually a pretty good move; on almost every creature in the game, it works just as well as lethal. Except for undead, of course, but those are immune to fear effects anyway.


Is it really feasible to slap another "eff you guy" method in here?
Yes, actually. Use the Frostbite spell with Rime Spell. You can either do this with the various magical rogue talents, or by dipping a level of Magus. The latter require the Magical Knack trait to boost your caster level, but it does mean you can leave out TWF (since you can attack twice per round with spell combat, with the same weapon no less).

[Second Arrow]

Well, because Enforcer works for free on every single attack, whereas Cornugon requires an immediate action. Also, you eat a sizeable to-hit penalty for (1) using power attack, and (2) having to invest point buy into strength.

Using nonlethal damage is actually a pretty good move; on almost every creature in the game, it works just as well as lethal. Except for undead, of course, but those are immune to fear effects anyway.


Yes, actually. Use the Frostbite spell with Rime Spell. You can either do this with the various magical rogue talents, or by dipping a level of Magus. The latter require the Magical Knack trait to boost your caster level, but it does mean you can leave out TWF (since you can attack twice per round with spell combat, with the same weapon no less).


Just a small clarification, while the feat itself says "immediate", Cornugon Smash is a free action, so it works on everything.


Cornugon Smash (Combat)

Prerequisites: Power Attack, Intimidate 6 ranks.

Benefit: When you damage an opponent with a Power Attack, you may make an immediate Intimidate check as a free action to attempt to demoralize your opponent.

[MortalSword]

Yes, actually. Use the Frostbite spell with Rime Spell. You can either do this with the various magical rogue talents, or by dipping a level of Magus. The latter require the Magical Knack trait to boost your caster level, but it does mean you can leave out TWF (since you can attack twice per round with spell combat, with the same weapon no less).

I like this idea but I see a few potential issues going with either route. If I were to pick this up via talents Rime Spell makes it a 2nd level spell, which is unavailable to cast with Major Magic. Magical Knack adds caster levels yes, but I think Magical Lineage would be a better route to reduce the spell level by 1 and make it available to cast. But it also has very limited uses per day. Would require quite a few Pearls of Power to make it viable until higher levels. Cancel all that. Double checked Minor/Major Magic and you have to choose from the Sorc/Wiz spell list and Frostbite isn't on it

Now going the Magus route also has its ups and downs. Kensai adds a free WF (Which would go to Kukri or Sap depending on which route I choose) but I wouldn't be able to Spell Combat Frostbite more than once per day due to limited spells per day. Again Magical Lineage would be my go to route here because it would be a 1 level dip and I would never get 2nd level spells and again with the PoP spamming between fights just to use it once per fight.....thats a significant drawback I think.


Anyways rough outline so far:

Thug + Bandit Archetypes

Reactionary + (insert Trait)

Human: Enforcer
1 TWF
UC Rogue - Weapon Finesse
Thug: Frightening +1 Rd Shaken/Convert to frightened

2 Weapon Trick: Sap

3 Dazzling Display
UC Rogue Finesse Training - Dex to Damage
Thug: - Brutal Beating -1d6 for sickened

4 Rogue Talent: Surprise Attack
Bandit: Ambush - Swift/Move/Standard in surprise round

5 Sap Adept
Rogues Edge: Intimidate

6 Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Sap Master

7 Extra Rogue Talent: Emboldening Strike

8 Rogue Talent: Mein of Despair

9 Shatter Defenses

10 Rogue Talent: Double Debilitation

11 idk lol Free?


Anyone got a better order/plan? Or alternative feats/talents that can be fit into this build?

[MortalSword]

Dammit. Wish I didnt see that. I just read Underhanded and Quick Draw's concealed weapons rule. This would be perfect for the Bandit's Ambush ability. Max SA damage with Sap Master? :O Holy crap. Going to try and rearrange things a bit and see what I can work with.

Edit: Cancel that, Move action to get to the enemy, move action to pull out the concealed weapon means I wont have any action left to attack. Pulling out a concealed weapon is different from drawing a weapon. You cant draw a concealed weapon during your move action the same way you could draw a regular weapon.