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Droopy McCool
2016-05-10, 01:12 AM
In trying to replicate Ant Man, I realized the special part of the hero was the suit. Anybody with fighting ability could put on the suit and be the Ant Man. So I started trying to find a way to make a suit with the proper enchantments, but it doesn't really work. So, I decided to make a specific armor set to allow size reduction stacking, but now I need a price and/or suggestions.

ANT MAN SUIT
Price: ??? gp
Body Slot: Body
Activation: Swift action
Weight: 30 lb.

This +1 Mithril Breastplate allows you to shrink and grow in size (from Fine to your size). Activating or deactivating it is a Swift action. While activated, you gain all the benefits of Fine size compared to your normal size, but do not take a penalty to strength due to size.

Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Reduce Person.
Cost to Create: ??? gp, ??? XP, ??? days.

Bolded things are what I need help with. Thanks for any input.

McCool

JBarca
2016-05-11, 12:24 PM
I think the easiest way to do this is a spell or similar that emulates this. Minute Form (Complete Arcane, Wu Jen list) as an at-will item, then go from there for the cost, could work.

Unfortunately, that puts the cost up at over 300,000gp, even before accounting for the Swift activation or Strength "bonus." This is assuming you want this ability at-will, rather than charges/day, which seems likely, given the source material.

Otherwise, the Compression can work at a much cheaper cost. It only shrinks 2 categories, but it's not unreasonable to expand that, I'd say. The cost there would be 26,000gp for two size decreases and Swift. Adding in the Str bonus, and at-will puts it up a bit, plus this is a pretty powerful effect in general.

Basically a +12 AC and +8 attack (or +12 if Dex-based), plus any other minor benefits of the size. That's very strong. Maybe ~100,000gp? That puts it out of range for most characters until 15th level or so (50% of the expected 200,000gp WBL), which seems reasonable. The (admittedly large) bonuses stop mattering so much with 8ths in play.

If you want this to be available to a lower level character, you might want to key this off HD or something. The biggest decrease possible could scale with level (eg. -1 until 5th, -2 until 10th, etc.). The issue here is that you're moving away from Ant Man a bit, though.

Final note: Your armor should probably also include a Mass Dominate Vermin ability of some sort, I'd think. Assuming you're talking about MCU Ant Man; I am not familiar with comic canon, so he may be different there.

Libro
2016-05-11, 03:44 PM
While I am unfamiliar with item creation rules, I may have an idea to reduce cost. If you were to increase the number of item slots the armor occupies, it may balance a lower monetary cost for the item.

Droopy McCool
2016-05-11, 07:05 PM
Otherwise, the Compression can work at a much cheaper cost. It only shrinks 2 categories, but it's not unreasonable to expand that, I'd say. The cost there would be 26,000gp for two size decreases and Swift. Adding in the Str bonus, and at-will puts it up a bit, plus this is a pretty powerful effect in general.

Basically a +12 AC and +8 attack (or +12 if Dex-based), plus any other minor benefits of the size. That's very strong. Maybe ~100,000gp? That puts it out of range for most characters until 15th level or so (50% of the expected 200,000gp WBL), which seems reasonable. The (admittedly large) bonuses stop mattering so much with 8ths in play.

You would get a +4 to attack rolls, regardless of using Str or Dex. You basically get an additional +8 though, again regardless of your attack modifier, because of the Str penalty not applying. I like the idea of using Compression though, and yes it does reduce the cost nicely. So now we're looking at:

ANT MAN SUIT
Price: 100,000 gp
Body Slot: Body
Activation: Swift action
Weight: 30 lb.
Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Compression.

This +1 Mithril Breastplate allows you to shrink and grow in size (from Fine to your size). Activating or deactivating it is a Swift action. While activated, you gain all the benefits of Fine size compared to your normal size, but do not take a penalty to strength due to size.


Final note: Your armor should probably also include a Mass Dominate Vermin ability of some sort, I'd think. Assuming you're talking about MCU Ant Man; I am not familiar with comic canon, so he may be different there.

I didn't really think about that, but it is different in the comics; it's actually a more integral part of the suit, being a function of the helmet. In the MCU, a separate earpiece is used. So how much would such a thing cost to add? Maybe just throw it in while keeping the cost at 100,000gp?


While I am unfamiliar with item creation rules, I may have an idea to reduce cost. If you were to increase the number of item slots the armor occupies, it may balance a lower monetary cost for the item.

If we expanded it to include the head slot (to include the helmet), what kind of cost reduction might we look at?

By the way, I'm garbage at item pricing. :smallsmile:

McCool

Libro
2016-05-11, 08:36 PM
If we expanded it to include the head slot (to include the helmet), what kind of cost reduction might we look at?

I'd guess 10-25%. There are some good items for the head slot, but not as many options as there are for some other item slots. The price reduction should relate to the options that are lost.


By the way, I'm garbage at item pricing. :smallsmile:
You're probably better at this than I am. My experience with magic items is rather limited, to say the least.

JBarca
2016-05-11, 08:59 PM
I didn't really think about that, but it is different in the comics; it's actually a more integral part of the suit, being a function of the helmet. In the MCU, a separate earpiece is used. So how much would such a thing cost to add? Maybe just throw it in while keeping the cost at 100,000gp?


Maybe make it a modified version of the spell, such that it only affects Fine Vermin, or Vermin with HD< or something? Essentially make it so it's hitting bugs, and not, say, the Devastation Beetle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/devastationVermin.htm) or what have you. Then you can pretty safely remove the Save for the spell. Basically just lets the wearer control bugs. Neat, fairly useful, but not gamebreaking by any stretch of the imagination, barring Hive Mind shenanigans.

If you do that, and include the helmet slot, you can probably keep it at 100,000gp, or slightly lower, if you want, without too much of an issue.

Droopy McCool
2016-05-11, 11:23 PM
Maybe instead of a Dominate Vermin effect, it has a Summon Swarm (Ant) effect, while also allowing the user to control the swarm. Viable, to say the least, and doesn't require an HD cap or size limit. Then it can be limited by tacking on something such as "only one swarm can be summoned and active at a time" sort of clause, and a duration of Concentration + x rounds.

I like what you're both saying, and obviously I'm trying to make this utilizable in an actual game. Just under 100,000 for shrinking and bug control while taking the head and body slots seems fairly reasonable. Glad we worked this out.

McCool

DeadpanSal
2016-05-11, 11:33 PM
Yeah, but the suit's cost doesn't matter. Because all you have to do is steal it!

Droopy McCool
2016-05-12, 12:45 AM
http://www.img.portalnetwork.hu/news/hangya_uj.jpg

Basileus
2016-05-12, 02:04 AM
Bear in mind that the suit was top-level tech, so it will likely be similarly valuable in an RPG. The strongest non-epic magic weapon is around 200,000 gps, and the strongest non-epic armor is 100,000 gps. I think the "maximum armor" is fairly indicative of the price. Complete Arcana has a Wu Jen spell list (as was already mentioned) that has both a shrink spell and a growth spell. They're "similar effects," and available to the same class, so stacking them won't be ungodly pricey, as opposed to stacking unrelated effects like True Resurrection and Time Stop.

Also, I would go with a move-action rather than a swift, but it's up to you.

Going off of the movie, do you really need it to be at-will? He had those disks, after all... Single-use items are something like 1/100th the cost. Have a custom suit of armor that must be worn to use them and that severely limits the usage of these disks. That, and the helmet of vermin control that only affects myrmidons and has to be worn with it. That's every non-jewelry slot taken up.

In this case, I believe that 100,000 gps could work, maybe as high as 200,000 to 250,000 gps, depending on your DM.

DeadpanSal
2016-05-12, 03:15 AM
Also, I would go with a move-action rather than a swift, but it's up to you.


I think Ant Man's fighting style relies on changing size as he moves, then attacks. Unless you can make it part of a charge, I'd keep it as something that doesn't deny a move action.



Going off of the movie, do you really need it to be at-will?

I'd have originally gone with at-wills as well, but maybe Basileus is on to something here. Apparently Pym Particles take a toll on a body if overdone. What if you make them slotted abilities, like with spell level costs or something. You can choose to exceed that cost (like shrink after you've used up your spells per day) with the shrink/grow disks, or choose to shrink at a different cost - like 1 point of temporary constitution damage each time. That might be crazy, but at least you have something to balance it rather than just spamming a really powerful ability.

Droopy McCool
2016-05-15, 02:41 PM
Also, I would go with a move-action rather than a swift, but it's up to you.

Going off of the movie, do you really need it to be at-will?

Maybe an unlimited number per day isn't the best. I could understand, then, changing it to "3 + your Con modifier times per day", where activation and deactivation once count as one of your uses. I'm still inclined to keep it as a swift action, because like Aeons said, movement is pretty necessary to the fighting style. So now, if we take all the stats and abilities:


+1 Mithril Breastplate w/ necessary helmet (head and body slots)
Shrinking and growing to/from Fine (3 + Con/day)
Dexterity bonus, AC bonus, and attack bonus due to size stack for every size category you shrink
No Strength penalty due to size
Controlled Summon Swarm (Ants) (3/day for Concentration + 2 rounds)

What might you price it at? And is there anything you would change?

McCool