3.5 Firearms, My take

[AnimeTheCat]

Ok, rules aren't 100% complete yet but I wanted to get the idea out there. This is what I've got so far.

Exotic weapons


Light
Damage(S/M)
Crit
Range
Weight


Hold Out Pistol
1d4/1d6
20/x3
30 ft
3 lbs





One Handed
Damage(S/M)
Crit
Range
Weight


Revolver
1d6/1d8
20/x3
40 ft
5 lbs


Repeater Pistol
1d6/1d8
20/x3
60 ft
6 lbs


Sawed Off Shotgun
1d3/1d4*
19-20/x2
10 ft
5 lbs





Two Handed
Damage (S/M)
Crit
Range
Weight


Musket
1d8/1d10
20/x3
40 ft
10 lbs


Breach Loader Rifle
1d8/1d10
20/x3
100 ft
10 lbs


Bolt Action Rifle
1d10/2d6
19-20/x2
120 ft
12 lbs


Assault Rifle
1d8/1d10
19-20/x2
100 ft
8 lbs


Shotgun, Break Action
1d4/1d6
18-20/x2
15 ft
10 lbs


Shotgun, Pump Action
1d4/1d6
18-20/x2
15 ft
10 lbs


Shotgun, Repeating
1d4/1d6
18-20/x2
15 ft
10 lbs



-Hold Out Pistol: a small lightweight pistol designed for stealth. Holds only 1 bullet. Grants +2 bonus to sleight of hand checks to hide it on your person. Required a full round action to reload.

-Revolver: an early one handed firearm. Simple in design, chambers a new round immediately after firing, allowing you to shoot at your full BAB, unless no more bullets remain in the weapon. Holds 6 bullets. Requires a standard action to reload one bullet or a full round action to reload two.

-Repeater Pistol: an advanced pistol. Chambers rounds immediately after firing, allowing you to shoot at your full BAB, unless no more bullets remain in the weapon. Holds 6 bullets. A magazine may be used to reload a repeater pistol as a standard action. If no magazine is available to reload your weapon, you may load up to your dexterity modifier in to a magazine(as long as that magazine is not full or in the weapon) as a full round action.

-Sawed Off Shotgun: a specialized shotgun that has been modded to shoot smaller gauge shells and is able to be used in one hand. A shotgun fires multiple small projectiles as opposed to a single larger projectile. A sawed off shotgun fires 4 projectiles. When attacking with a shotgun roll the ranged attack as normal. After a hit has been determined roll 1d4. That is the number of projectiles that has hit. Roll damage individually for each projectile that has hit. Shotguns can not be used to apply any sort of precision damage, regardless of the source. A sawed off shotgun holds 2 rounds. The second round is available to be fired immediately after the first, allowing a character with a high enough base attack bonus to make multiple attacks in a round, as long as there are enough shells in the weapon to actually fire a projectile. A character may reload a number of shotgun shells equal to her dexterity modifier as a full round action.

-Musket: A basic rifle. Requires the user to pour black powder down the barrel and ram the projectile on top of it. Only holds one round. Requires a full round action to reload.

-Breach Loader: a slightly more advanced rifle than the musket. Allows a bullet to be loaded from the rear of the weapon. Holds only one round. Requires a standard action to reload.

-Bolt Action Rifle: most advanced rifle. Allows the used to load multiple rounds in the weapon that may be chambered as a free action, allowing the user to fire more than once in a round, if they have the base attack bonus to do so. A bolt action rifle can hold 5 rounds within the weapon and one round in the chamber for a total maximum of 6. At the beginning of his or her turn, a character may decide to spend a full round action to reload up to their dexterity modifier worth of bullets.

-Assault Rifle: a repeating variant of the breach loader rifle. Fires bullets from a magazine. An assault rifle magazine may hold up to 10 bullets. An assault rifle immediately chambers the next round, as long as there are bullets still in the magazine, allowing a character to make multiple attacks in a round, as long as they have the base attack bonus to do so. Inserting a new magazine in an assault rifle is a standard action. Individual bullets may be inserted in to a magazine that is not full or inserted in the weapon at a rate of 1 bullet per point of dexterity modifier per full round action.

-Shotgun, Break Action: a break action shotgun is the simplest of the shotguns. A shotgun fires multiple small projectiles as opposed to a single larger projectile. A break action shotgun fires 6 projectiles. When attacking with a shotgun roll the ranged attack as normal. After a hit has been determined roll 1d6. That 1d6 result is the number of projectiles that has hit. Roll damage individually for each projectile that has hit. Shotguns can not be used to apply any sort of precision damage, regardless of the source. A break action shotgun holds 2 rounds. The second round is available to be fired immediately after the first, allowing a character with a high enough base attack bonus to make two attacks during a full attack action. A character may reload a number of rounds equal to her dexterity modifier as a full round action.

-Shotgun, Pump Action: a pump action shotgun is slightly more advanced than the break action shotgun but still requires the user to manually chamber the next round. A shotgun fires multiple small projectiles as opposed to a single larger projectile. A break action shotgun fires 6 projectiles. When attacking with a shotgun roll the ranged attack as normal. After a hit has been determined roll 1d6. That 1d6 result is the number of projectiles that has hit. Roll damage individually for each projectile that has hit. Shotguns can not be used to apply any sort of precision damage, regardless of the source. A pump action shotgun holds 3 rounds within the tube and 1 in the chamber for a total of 4 rounds. The next round must be manually chambered as a free action, allowing a character with a high enough base attack bonus to make two attacks during a full attack action. A character may reload a number of rounds equal to her dexterity modifier as a full round action.

-Shotgun, Repeating: most advanced shotgun type. A shotgun fires multiple small projectiles as opposed to a single larger projectile. A repeating shotgun fires 6 projectiles. When attacking with a shotgun roll the ranged attack as normal. After a hit has been determined roll 1d6. That 1d6 result is the number of projectiles that has hit. Roll damage individually for each projectile that has hit. Shotguns can not be used to apply any sort of precision damage, regardless of the source. A repeating shotgun magazine holds 6 rounds. The next round is available to be fired immediately after the first is fired, allowing a character with a high enough base attack bonus to make multiple attacks during a full attack action. Inserting a new magazine in a repeating shotgun is a standard action. A character may insert a number of rounds equal to her dexterity modifier in a magazine that is not full or in the weapon as a full round action.

Special rules:

Reloading a weapon in any way, including inserting a new magazine in a repeating weapon or loading individual cartridges in to a magazine, provokes an attack of opportunity.

Guns require 3 things to function:
-housing (the gun itself)
-propellant* (black powder, fire dust, fire elemental ashes)
-projectile (bullet, usually lead or iron)

Some weapons use cartridges, which are the propellant and projectile already combined (such as the repeater pistol, sawed off shotgun, breach loader rifle, etc.) whereas others don't (such as musket, or revolver).



Craft Item
Craft Skill
DC


Simple Projectile
Craft (Firearms)
C10


Propellant (Black Powder)
Craft (Alchemy)
15


Propellant (Fire Dust)
Craft (Alchemy)
25


Fire Elemental Ashes
Craft (Alchemy)
30


Cartridges
Craft (Firearm)
25



The above are simply examples.

Black powder and fire dust are different forms of propellant. Black powder is nearly useless if it gets wet and carries a 50% chance of misfire. If a misfire occurs the character must make a craft (firearms) check to clear the misfire. This is a full round action with a DC 20 to clear it. The character may try again on a subsequent round if the check fails. If the character fails the check by 15 or more or rolls a natural 1 on the check the firearm is now broken and must be repaired. If a character successfully clears the weapon it is treated as being unloaded, therefore the character must take the appropriate action to reload their weapon.

Fire dust is a more stable and reliable form of propellant. It only has a 10% chance of causing a misfire when wet. Otherwise it follows the same misfire rules as black powder

Fire elemental ashes are not in actuality the ashes of a fire elemental. The name comes from the red wispy look the light powder has when sitting in a pile. The powder remains dry at all times, even underwater, and even allows a firearm to be fired underwater. Weapons fired underwater carry a -4 penalty to hit and only have 1/4 the normal range (any weapon with 20ft or Lower range can only be fired at point blank range). If a firearm is fired underwater at something more than 1/4 the normal range the bullet fractures and harmlessly passes through the water.

Things to come:
Feats(pre-existing and new)
Prices
Weapon crafting
Weapon enchantments
Attachments (still ironing this one out)

Well guys, be honest and let me know what you think!

Edit: Adjusted weapon ranges and some critical multipliers AND put stuff in actual tables.

[AnimeTheCat]

Point Blank Shot: Functions exactly the same as with any other ranged weapon
Far Shot: Functions exactly the same as with any other ranged weapon
Precise Shot: Functions exactly the same as with any other ranged weapon
Improved Precise Shot: Functions Exactly the Same as with any other ranged weapon

Rapid Shot:
Functions the same as the SRD feat but with the following exceptions
- This feat may only be applied to a firearm that can allow you to make multiple attacks as a full attack action.
- If a character takes rapid reload with a hold out pistol they may apply rapid shot to the holdout pistol
- Example: If Marvin, 5th level fighter, takes the rapid shot feat and is using a break action shotgun, he may make two attacks at a -2 penalty each. He must still reload his weapon before being able to fire again. Upon reaching 6th level Marvin can now make 2 attacks as a full attack action without this feat, but by using the rapid reload feat, he may make an additional attack by firing twice, using a free action to reload a single shell, and then firing one more time, all at a -2 penalty to each shot.

Manyshot:
Functions the same as the SRD feat, but with the following exceptions:
- This feat may only be applied to a firearm that holds more than one round of ammunition.
- there must be a bullet available within the weapon for each additional projectile you will be firing at the opponent (you must have 2 bullets at +6 BAB, 3 at +11, and 4 at +16)

Shot On The Run: Functions Exactly the Same as with any other ranged weapon

Rapid Reload:
Same as the SRD feat with the same requirements, but with the following exceptions.
- Must Have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Hold-Out, Revolver, Musket, Breach Loader Rifle, Sawed Off Shotgun, or Break Action Shotgun)
- Reduces the reload time of a hold-out pistol to a swift action
- Increases the number of rounds you can load in to a revolver to 2 as a standard action and 3 as a full round action and allows you to load a single round as a swift action
- Reduces the reload time of a musket to a standard action
- Reduces the reload time of a Breach Loader Rifle to a swift action
- Allows the user to load a single shell in the Sawed Off or Break Action Shotgun as a swift action.
- Using this feat only allows the character to load a single shell or bullet in a shotgun or hold out pistol in a single round.
The idea of this feat is to offer a way to introduce light, sneaky guns that are viable for rogues without invalidating the revolver. This feat adaptation is designed for games that will never see repeating weapons other than the revolver.

[Mystral]

None of those weapons are any better than the corresponding crossbow, which is often a simple weapon.

I mean, just compare the breech loader rifle to the heavy crossbow. Both can be fired every two rounds, but the heavy crossbow has 3 times the range and double the crit range, while doing the same damage.

Or the assault rifle and the heavy repeating crossbow. The assault rifle has twice the ammunition, but still loses out on crit range and range increment.

I think that you should do some comparing and buff your weapons. Also, I feel that they should have a x3 crit multiplier.

[AnimeTheCat]

None of those weapons are any better than the corresponding crossbow, which is often a simple weapon.

I mean, just compare the breech loader rifle to the heavy crossbow. Both can be fired every two rounds, but the heavy crossbow has 3 times the range and double the crit range, while doing the same damage.

Or the assault rifle and the heavy repeating crossbow. The assault rifle has twice the ammunition, but still loses out on crit range and range increment.

I think that you should do some comparing and buff your weapons. Also, I feel that they should have a x3 crit multiplier.

I see what you're saying and maybe a x3 is in order, however these are meant to be comparable weapons, not better weapons. Their damages AR similar by design so that the crossbow is in some ways better yet, as you pointed out, the assault rifle is better. They each have the benefits without overshadowing the other. As for the breach loader, perhaps a damage boost is in order, as well as extending the range a bit.

[AnimeTheCat]

Special Properties/Attachments:

Firearms are adaptable for nearly every situation you need them in. Below are some examples of special properties or basic attachments for firearms. A firearm may only have one special property and one attachment at any given time.

Lightweight Materials: A weapon made from lightweight materials reduces the weight of the weapon by half and makes it a light weapon. The drawbacks are that the damage is likewise reduced by 1 dice (1d6 damage now deals 1d4, etc.), due to the frame of the weapon not being able to handle the normal rigor that the weapon would ordinarily be able to manage. Additionally a lightweight weapon used as a melee weapon carries a 30% chance of breaking and can only deal non-lethal damage. Only one-handed firearms may be made from lightweight materials. Making a weapon out of lightweight materials makes it a masterwork weapon and increases the cost by 300g.

Bayonets: A bayonet may be attached to any two handed firearm. Attaching a bayonet to a weapon takes a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. Once attached the bayonet has no effect on the functionality of the weapon but it does allow the character to stab an opponent in melee range for 1d4 points of piercing damage. Making an attack in the fashion does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Bayonets may be enchanted as a melee weapon and do not benefit from an enhancement bonus on the firearm itself. A standard bayonet is 1g.

Scopes: A scope may only be attached to a Bolt Action Rifle or an Assault Rifle. A scope Reduces the penalties for firing above the range increment of a weapon by half. Therefore, a bolt action rifle with a scope may fire from 121 feet to 240 feet at only a -1 penalty. A scope costs 1,000g.

[Sayt]

Okay, a few niggles: Sawnoff Shotguns are not necessarily smaller gauge than other shotguns, just shorter barrels. Full Length shotguns are actually much better at range than most videogames would have you think, with a 'full' Choke 70% of the shot fired is gonna land within a 30 inch spread at 40 feet. Also, muskets are not rifles, as they have a smoothe bore. They are however Longarms, along with Rifles and Shotguns.


But the first thing is, have you considered looking at and tweaking the Pathfinder gun rules? Perhaps tweaking or cutting out Misfire rules and hitting touch in the first range increment if ou don't like those. But generally speaking, Pathfinder firearms are in a much better place than they used to be.

[AnimeTheCat]

Okay, a few niggles: Sawnoff Shotguns are not necessarily smaller gauge than other shotguns, just shorter barrels. Full Length shotguns are actually much better at range than most videogames would have you think, with a 'full' Choke 70% of the shot fired is gonna land within a 30 inch spread at 40 feet. Also, muskets are not rifles, as they have a smoothe bore. They are however Longarms, along with Rifles and Shotguns.


But the first thing is, have you considered looking at and tweaking the Pathfinder gun rules? Perhaps tweaking or cutting out Misfire rules and hitting touch in the first range increment if ou don't like those. But generally speaking, Pathfinder firearms are in a much better place than they used to be.

I didn't make the sawed off shotgun a smaller caliber for realism's sake, I did it for balancing purposes. The potential to deal 12d6 damage using a lightweight material sawed off shotgun and a regular sawed off shotgun at only a -2 to each is pretty ridiculous, especially when you consider that you can be doing that at level 1. By reducing the caliber in the fluff I've given a reason for it to do a smaller damage dice with fewer projectiles. 8d4 is more manageable than 12d6 at early levels. Second, these are not full choke shotguns. There may be an attachment later that increases the range a bit, but again, I have made it that way for balance purposes. 6d6 possible damage from range is already dangerous, increasing that range is just asking for it to be abused. The range increments are there to prevent cheese, even though with feats like far shot, it is still possible.

I'll make the appropriate changes to the musket, because you're right they're not rifles.

I have read over and re-read and finally decided that I really don't like PF gun rules. Especially with the touch AC bit and the misfire rules. If the person takes care of their firearm the same way someone takes care of their sword or armor, it won't likely have a high chance of doing so, and it isn't necessary because the weapons are balanced within the system and don't need an additional balancing factor. The way I'm building this is to essentially supplement and be playable in anyone's world because they don't require rules finagling or complicated measures to make sure someone doesn't become the firey overlord of the world because of the special alchemical powder in their boom stick... these don't invalidate any other weapons and they are not grossly overshadowed by any other weapon. they are comparable and provide flavorful options without changing any basic game mechanics.

[martixy]

a) This probably belongs in the homebrew section.
b) Here are the broad characteristics I feel firearms could have:
- High damage
- Penalties to damage from range increments, in addition to the usual penalties to attack (say 2)
- Lower range increments(the ones you have right now seem fine)
- Small critical threat ranges (like there should not exist a 18-20 firearm and 19-20s should be shotguns/exceptions)
- High critical threat multipliers (the higher-powered rifles should be x4, maybe even have a x5 weapon)

[AnimeTheCat]

Example Class:

To address that I've made firearms exotic weapons, I've decided to adapt a SRD class to suite the existence of the weapons. For this I've simply changed the ranger class slightly.

"Outlaw" (SRD Ranger)

Hit Die: d8

Class Skills: Climb, Concentration, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Geography), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Ride, Search, Spot, Survival, Swim, and Use Rope.

Skill Points: (6+int Modifier)x4 at 1st level, 6+Int Modifier after 1st.



Level
BAB
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special
1st
2nd
3rd
4th


1st
+1
+2
+2
+0
1st Favored enemy, Urban Tracking
-
-
-
-


2nd
+2
+3
+3
+0
Combat Style
-
-
-
-


3rd
+3
+3
+3
+1
Endurance
-
-
-
-


4th
+4
+4
+4
+1
Animal Companion
0
-
-
-


5th
+5
+4
+4
+1
2nd Favored enemy
0
-
-
-


6th
+6/+1
+5
+5
+2
Improved Combat Style
1
-
-
-


7th
+7/+2
+5
+5
+2
Canny Step
1
-
-
-


8th
+8/+3
+6
+6
+2
Swift Tracker
1
0
-
-


9th
+9/+4
+6
+6
+3
Evasion
1
0
-
-


10th
+10/+5
+7
+7
+3
3rd Favored Enemy
1
1
-
-


11th
+11/+6/+1
+7
+7
+3
Combat Style Mastery
1
1
0
-


12th
+12/+7/+2
+8
+8
+4

1
1
1
-


13th
+13/+8/+3
+8
+8
+4
Camouflage
1
1
1
-


14th
+14/+9/+4
+9
+9
+4

2
1
1
0


15th
+15/+10/+5
+9
+9
+5
4th Favored Enemy
2
1
1
1


16th
+16/+11/+6/+1
+10
+10
+5

2
2
1
1


17th
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+10
+5
Hide in Plain Sight
2
2
2
1


18th
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+11
+6

3
2
2
1


19th
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+11
+6

3
3
3
2


20th
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+12
+6
5th Favored Enemy
3
3
3
3



Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
An Outlaw is proficient with all simple weapons and firearms, and with light armor, but not with shields.

Favored Enemy - Functions the same as the Ranger class feature with the following exceptions:
- Due to the nature of the outlaw they may select a certain town's guards as a favored enemy. This will only apply to guards of that specific town.
- Conversely, sometimes an outlaw is a chaotic good person who is wanted by lawful society and chooses to bring her skills to bear against the bandits that plague a city. You may select a certain bandit band that is tied to a city that you live in or near. This will only apply to bandits of that band.

Urban Tracking - Functions the same as the Ranger ACF.

Combat Style - Typically an outlaw will fall in to one of two categories, the gunslinger or the sharpshooter. An Outlaw that chooses the gunslinger path gains two weapon fighting as a bonus feat, even if she does not have the prerequisites for it. An outlaw that follows the Sharpshooter path gains Precise shot as a bonus feat, even if she does not possess the normal prerequisites.

Endurance - An outlaw gains Endurance as a bonus feat.

Animal Companion - An outlaw usually forms a bond with a dog or wolf that accompanies them along their journey, although sometimes they form a special bond with their horse or riding dog in the case of small outlaws. An Outlaw may select an animal companion from the following list: Dog (riding/attack), Eagle, Hawk, Raven, Wolf, Horse (light/heavy), Pony, Snake (small/medium viper). This ability functions the same as the druid ability of the same name, except that the ranger's effective druid level is one half her ranger level.

Spells - This class feature functions the same as the Ranger class feature of the same name.

Improved Combat Style - An outlaw that is following the gunslinger path gains improved two weapon fighting as a bonus feat, even if she does not possess the prerequisites. An outlaw that is following the sharpshooter path gains Rapid Shot as a bonus feat, even if she does not possess the prerequisites.

Canny Step- Outlaws unfortunately have a tendency to get in to trouble. Fortunately, they also excel at getting out of trouble. An outlaw gets to add her intelligence bonus to tumble, balance, and climb checks.

Swift Tracker - Functions the same as the Ranger class feature.

Evasion - Functions the same as the Ranger class feature.

Combat Style Mastery - An Outlaw that follows the gunslinger path gets Greater Two Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat, even if she does not possess the prerequisites. A practitioner of the sharpshooter style gains improved precise shot as a bonus feat, even if she does not possess the prerequisites.

Camouflage - Functions the same as the Ranger class feature.

Hide in Plain Sight - Functions the same as the Ranger class feature.

[AnimeTheCat]

a) This probably belongs in the homebrew section.
b) Here are the broad characteristics I feel firearms could have:
- High damage
- Penalties to damage from range increments, in addition to the usual penalties to attack (say 2)
- Lower range increments(the ones you have right now seem fine)
- Small critical threat ranges (like there should not exist a 18-20 firearm and 19-20s should be shotguns/exceptions)
- High critical threat multipliers (the higher-powered rifles should be x4, maybe even have a x5 weapon)

a) I completely forgot about that. I'll likely move it over before I continue adding more.
b) In response to your characteristics (which in some ways I do like)
- I don't want the damage to become obscene, but maybe tweaking some of the damage could help to make them more alluring.
- While this seems like an interesting rule, I don't want to add undue stress. There is no reason why an arrow will carry it's kinetic energy better than a bullet will at long range.
- I think I'm standing firm where they are after the most recent tweak.
- SO, on critical threat ranges here's how I interpret it. A rapier isn't better at killing someone than a greataxe is, it's just easier to get in the nooks and crannies of the armor. a single well placed hit will happen more often, but is far less ravaging than that of a greataxe. A bullet doesn't do more damage because of what happens to the target when it hits, it does more damage based on where the target is hit. I tried to capture this aspect by keeping the crits fairly low/reasonable but keeping the less historically accurate weapons at a lower crit range. The more historically accurate weapons have a greater chance of hitting their mark and is thereby shown by an increased crit range. The shotguns are a tradeoff style weapon. big damage potential, but you're still using a ranged weapon in near melee combat. also, it is impossible to calculate the spread of the small pellets in a shotgun spread. to try and capture this, I made them have the largest crit range while having the smallest multiplier. All that goes together to make all the weapons viable, without overshadowing any pre-existing weapons or weapon functions and without being overshadowed themselves.

The idea here, after all, is to make something that can easily be plugged in to any campaign, without the risk of shattering the world.

[AnimeTheCat]

Ok, I've reposted this thread HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?487612-Guns-in-D-amp-D-3-5-WITHOUT-using-PF&p=20763653#post20763653). Please use that location if you wish to discuss the above posted any more. Thanks for the reminder @Martixy!

[martixy]

b) In response to your characteristics (which in some ways I do like)
- I don't want the damage to become obscene, but maybe tweaking some of the damage could help to make them more alluring.
Nobody is talking about obscene damage, but the point was, having high damage as a hallmark of firearms, counterbalanced by something else, such as the idea below(and potentially other factors not relating directly to damage).


- While this seems like an interesting rule, I don't want to add undue stress. There is no reason why an arrow will carry it's kinetic energy better than a bullet will at long range.
Funny you should say that... because there is a VERY good reason and it involves precisely what you mentioned. PHYSICS.
Kinetic energy is really very simple. It involves mass and velocity.
Arrows derive most of their energy from their mass. Bullets on the other hand rely on velocity.
Mass doesn't change with time. Velocity does, and not in a linear fashion. Drag on an object increases as the square of velocity.
A bullet, especially a non-aerodynamically stable one you'd see from the primitive firearms you'd expect to find in a D&D world would lose much more energy with distance than an arrow would.


- I think I'm standing firm where they are after the most recent tweak.
No comment I can offer without playtesting. It was merely a general design idea in line with the above.


- SO, on critical threat ranges
My point was, hard to aim(bullets are small things), but very damaging when it lands in the right spot. This is expressed by low threat ranges and high multipliers.


The idea here, after all, is to make something that can easily be plugged in to any campaign, without the risk of shattering the world.
I see firearms as something radically different than the weapons we have so far.
As they are now, on "paper", they don't feel this way.
All my suggestion were aimed towards that goal.

[Yahzi]

Shotguns do as much damage as assault rifles; they just have much shorter ranges.

Assault rifles also come in two classes. The M16 is a fairly light round; you might actually survive it. The AK-47 is a much heaver round (like sniper rifles and such). Keep in mind that a .357 magnum pistol has a 95% kill ratio with hits to the torso. That means if you get shot in the chest or stomach by Dirty Harry, you only have a 5% chance of not dying.

In GURPS, where people had 10-18 HPs, light assault rifles do 5d6 dmg. GURPS is a lot more realistic than D&D. You probably aren't interested in more realism, though. Otherwise you'd be playing GURPS. :smallbiggrin: