Spheres of Power: Shapeshifter's Handbook Open Playtest

[stack]

As some of you know, Drop Dead Studios (http://www.dropdeadstudios.com/) is producing a series of expansions for the Spheres of Power (http://paizo.com/products/btpy96pr?Spheres-of-Power) alternate magic system, each expanding upon a single sphere. Having gotten much feedback on the Destruction sphere expansion, I return to humbly present the alteration sphere expansion for you to tear to bloody shreds that it may be improved.
Shapeshifter's Handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dUvSqJPOjCoXei1lean_sAjw2NmWonAEm47VQVSKfVo/edit?usp=sharing)

Hold nothing (pertinent) back. Thanks for all your help.

[Ironsides]

How have I missed seeing this for almost a whole week. I am going to dive into it now. :)

[EldritchWeaver]

How have I missed seeing this for almost a whole week. I am going to dive into it now. :)

That's my line! :smallwink:

[stack]

That's my line! :smallwink:

Thought it had gotten awful quiet over there.

[EldritchWeaver]

Thought it had gotten awful quiet over there.

If you want to make sure that I notice this things earlier then either post an announcement into the Q&A thread or get Adam to send a message at least to the patreons. I seldomly check the forum itself.

[khadgar567]

for object transformation can we keep equipment of target if we turn them to statues

[stack]

If you want to make sure that I notice this things earlier then either post an announcement into the Q&A thread or get Adam to send a message at least to the patreons. I seldomly check the forum itself.
I did mention posting something to the patreon to Adam. Guess I should post it to the AMA also.


for object transformation can we keep equipment of target if we turn them to statues
Equipment merges, so you would have to kill them at let them turn back.

[Saffron-sama]

So I found something I have an issue with.
Improved Transformation does not have the line about spell point cost that transformation has. Which means I could get fast healing at the cost of two feats and a level or four feat (transformation, basic magical training, extra magical talent and imp trans).

[Scowling Dragon]

OK Il post it here again:


The only one Im kinda disapointed was the abberation one. Thats the most difficult one (Because abberations have least amount in common) but it feels the most "Cheaty" out of all of them.

Maybe make it a randomizer transformation with some feats and talents improving you skill with the randomization? With a few key traits?

I dunno.

[stack]

Made some significant revision to the Experimentalist Thaumaturge. Will be reviewing the levels the Resizer Mageknight gets its abilities at next.

[Mithril Leaf]

Maybe make it so that orb transformation lets the creature count as a size or two smaller for sneaking and movement and such?

[stack]

Maybe make it so that orb transformation lets the creature count as a size or two smaller for sneaking and movement and such?
Not a bad idea. It definitely needs a little more.

[Mithril Leaf]

Can the incredibly awesome Experimentalist still benefit from the human favored class bonus? By the by, I really see your love for the Thaumaturge coming through there in a lovely way.

EDIT: Also specify if allies can benefit from his forbidden alchemy.

[stack]

I have to add a line to make the FCB work, thanks.

I can't publish a book without thaumaturge material. It's in my contract.:smalltongue:

[Mithril Leaf]

So if a level 2 Experimentalist kills a fish, a bird, a wolf, and harvests each of them for spare parts, tosses them all into a single brew, he could cast Alteration and use Animalist, Avian, Aquan, and say Bestial talents correct?

Also does Gentle Repose extend the time you can harvest goodies from corpses?

[stack]

So if a level 2 Experimentalist kills a fish, a bird, a wolf, and harvests each of them for spare parts, tosses them all into a single brew, he could cast Alteration and use Animalist, Avian, Aquan, and say Bestial talents correct?

Also does Gentle Repose extend the time you can harvest goodies from corpses?That is correct, so long as he does so before the boost expires. Doing so also uses up your samples.

I mentioned gentle repose in the sidebar about samples, but I don't think I specifically call it out in the text, which I probably should.

[Mithril Leaf]

That is correct, so long as he does so before the boost expires. Doing so also uses up your samples.

I mentioned gentle repose in the sidebar about samples, but I don't think I specifically call it out in the text, which I probably should.

Yeah it was mentioned you can get preserved portions, but nothing about if you procure a corpse and gentle repose it, then a week later cut a leg off. No worries though.

EDIT: Oh hey, does the Experimentalist replace Master Invoker with anything?

[Quarian Rex]

This has been an open tab on my browser for a month so it's about time that I finally comment on it. Damn fine work Stack. I'm going to go through and provide some comments/thoughts on the points that stood out to me. If I don't mention something then I generally think that it's good.

As with any PEACH I do I'm never sure how tone comes across on the internet so just remember that I like what you're doing here and I think that I'm helping.




Experimentalist (Thaumaturge Archetype)

Holy bloody hell man. I want to personally thank you for this. I have been looking for something that blended SoP and the Alchemist (specifically Alchemist Discoveries) but have been continually disappointed till this very moment. Using the Thaumaturge as the chassis was a wise decision and you have made some great choices to shore up the Thaumaturge's shortcommings in this role while maintaining balance.



Forbidden Alchemy

Originally I had preferred the previous Mutagen option but this new version has really grown on me and provides a much more elegant solution with better balance (I think). The only suggestion that I can think of is to have the number of traits granted be modified by Greater Transformation and Extreme Transformation and specify that these traits would replace an equal number of traits (up to their normal maximum) that are already active.



Consumption

Now this is really where you struck gold. This one little ability singlehandedly supplies half the flavour for the archetype and solves the problem of using a Talent-hungry sphere like Alteration on a Talent-starved class like the Thaumaturge. Good work. The only suggestion that I would make would be to have the expended sample apply to any/all alchemical boosts made during a given preperation instead of being used up on a per-boost basis. You have an extremely limited number of samples that can be maintained and the alchemical boosts loose potency when another batch is prepared so I cannot see any real means of abuse, but it does let the player get more use out of an extremely limited resource, increasing the utility and value of that resource.



Morphic Adept

Standard option for specialized archetypes. I would strongly suggest adding Flesh Warper as an alternate (mutually exclusive) drawback to Lycanthropic. I think that both Dr. Jekyll and Dr. Moreau are valid expressions of this archetype and should be given official sanction. Since Flesh Warper doesn't conflict with Forbidden Alchemy I think that this is an especially good option (one that you should definitely leave in).



Discoveries

This is the sexy goodness that I've been looking to mix with Spheres of power for so long. Again, I thank you. I would recomend that you specifically state that the effects of Discoveries can count as Sphere use where applicable. Even going so far as to say that the discovery can be further modified with additional applicable talents without needing prerequisites so long as it only applies to the qualifying discovery.

Reading that over it may need some clarification. Say the Experimentalist takes the Alchemical Zombie discovery, this would qualify him to take Empowered Reanimate, Expanded Necromancy, or to use Necrotic Senses on the products of the discovery, without having to purchase the base Death sphere. Even qualifying for the Greater Undead Advanced Talent since the Alchemical Zombie discovery covers the effects of all of the prerequisites. All of these upgrades applying only to the creation of Alchemical Zombies as described in the discovery (gold cost and all).

The key here is that I think you need to make sure that the sometimes complex effects of some of the discoveries can be integrated into SoP without the talent-starved Thaumaturge having to relearn something he can already do just to get an upgrade. Give it some thought.



Flexible Research

Another suprisingly subtle option that solves a lot of problems before they happen. Bummed that a Discovery that you want unlocks at 8th level but you can't select it till 9th? Flexible Research. Shedding tears of frustration that you cannot take the Vivisectionist archetype and keep suckling upon the sweet teat of Sneak Attack? Flexible Research. Nice job.

As you can tell I'm quite fond of the Experimentalist.




Resizer (Mageknight Archetype)

I was not expecting this and I'm pleasantly surprised. You turned a standard buff option into a versatile, yet narrowly focused, character option. Nice. While most of the features are fitting and well done considering the intent I do have to call out one in partucular...



Agile Strength

It's this kind of simple addition that makes an archetype. With this simple feature you remove a relatively minor mechanical penalty but let the character use his greatest strength without feeling like he is at a disadvantage. Also, Antman. Antman is now a thing in D&D. Congrats, you done a good.





Graft Weapon
Shape Weapon

When using these in Bestial Traits or Mystic Combats remove the Spell Point costs. Avoid SP bloat whenever possible. These options are more flavourful than functional and do not deserve the extra cost.




Basic Magic
Alteration Sphere Talents




Aberrant Body

I am both happy and sad with this one. With the previous incarnation, with the multiple option aberrant templates, I did regret the lack of trait options. Now I have all of the trait options (yay!) but now it is devoid of a base form, which I think is a real missed opportunity. At least one of the base forms in the game should have a disturbing distrubution of tentacles. This should be it. Granted, aberrants are an extremely mixed bag, so how about doing something like what you have done with Anarchic Transformation? Something like ...

"You may grant the form of an aberration with your shapeshift. The target gains a head (in addition to its body) a 10 ft. land speed, a +2 natural armor bonus which increases by 1 per 5 caster levels, and darkvision 60 ft. Additionally, you may choose four of any of the following: a pair of legs granting 30 ft. land speed, increasing by 10 ft. per additional pair, a pair of tentacle natural attacks (secondary, 1d4 Medium, 1d3 Small) that can manipulate objects as a human’s hands can (can be selected twice), a head (each additional head grants a +2 bonus on Perception checks), a tail, or any of the traits added by this talent. These options may be chosen more than once (unless specified otherwise). The base form does not possess legs, so cannot be tripped unless legs are added."

Note the bolding. First is a needed addition to the wording in Anarchic Transformation. Everything else states what limbs/nubs the form starts with, this needs it as well. I recomend the four options for aberrants since they have no resistances and such.



Anarchic Transformation

Add the first bolded section that I mentioned above and you should be good.



Disarming Transformation

This feels weirdly out of place. Not in a completely bad way, just... like you are overstepping the bounds of Alteration. What if you had a prerequisite of having access to the Alter ability of the Creation sphere? Simple, covers all the bases, and the talent now makes sense. Thoughts?



Elongation
Long Arm

This whole 'you have better reach but not when it actually counts' thing has always seemed like a cop-out to me. Size Change is already there and offers bonuses in addition to reach. If you are going to have this as an option just let it provide full reach, threatened area and all. If the sheer range of the reach is a problem perhaps reduce it to 5 ft. plus 5 additional ft. per 10 caster levels. That is seriously prefferable to reach that is not reach.



Lingering Transformation

This one just makes me sad. It is just such a waste of a talent. If it was 5 rounds then It might have a purpose at lower levels but a 2 round extension is just a slap in the face. Please, do something with this.

How about lingering in the same way as Lingering Necromancy? When spending a Spell Point to maintain a Shapeshift without concentration the duration becomes 1 hour/level instead of 1 min./level. This would synergize much better with some of the options under Twisted Transformation.



Odiferous

This is just such a small, niche option that I don't really think that it should be it's own talent, it just isn't really worth it. Perhaps give some thought to adding them as additional trait options to Vermin Transformation or something like that. They are interesting options, just not by themselves.



Morphic Weapon

Similar problem as above. Interesting flavour options (the biggest mechanical advantage is being immune to disarm attempts) that are not themselves worthy of the cost of a talent. Please, please, just add these to the options for Additional Limbs. They definitely have a place in the game, just not by themselves.



Object Transformation

Similar issue as with Disarming Transformation above. It seems like you're going too far outside the limits of Alteration. As above, just add a prerequisite of having access to the Alter ability of the Creation sphere and all problems are solved.



Ooze Transformation

I suggest adding Bilidsight as a trait option. I don't think it's available anwhere else and would be a worthy addition.



Orb Transformation

This is just a weirdly specific option. You're weird Stack. That is by no means an insult. I like the ability itself though. It adds options for various mystical/floaty form possibilities. If you are planning on letting the Orb count as a smaller size then add the caveat that it would only count so long as it didn't have any other limbs on it's current form. Floaty head gets size bonus? Fine. Multi-armed torso attached to floaty head gets size bonus? Not so much.



Perfect Imitation

This is just one of a strangely large number of abilities that you have made that all essentially do the same thing but provide no assistance to each other. I get that this allows you to imitate a specific person (niche but handy) but your massively increased cosmetic shapeshifting skills provide no further bonus to general disguise. This needs to be fixed. Instead of saying that this ability does not stack with similar abilities, let it stack at half effectiveness (+5). Limits skill check bloat but still provides a significant bonus.

Also, with this talent let them alter a targets' cosmetic appearance without using a trait when utilizing Blank Form. This is a very limited option, let the player get a little more bang for their buck.



Powerful Limbs

This is another option that seems like it's not enough but it gives a big enough mechanical bonus that I'm not comfortable bundling it with something else. How about Powerful Arms has the added benefit of doubling a creatures lifting capacity (but not their carrying capacity) and Powerful Legs has the added benefit of doubling a creatures carrying capacity (but not their lifting capacity)? Not unbalancing things but giving a niche boost that makes the selection more tempting.



Protean Mastery
Belated Shift

This is a very interesting trait but one that I think needs to be expanded upon. I think something like this needs to be a viable option for Permanent Transformation but have enough of a downside that it is not the only option. How about something like the trait automatically unforms after 1 min? This way over-reliance on the Belated Shift will result in no traits at the beginning of combat and multiple rounds spent turning them on. Sounds about right to me.



Retain Ability

This is one ot those abilities where I can definitely see the utility but the cost is just too high. Sacrificing a Talent and throwing away a trait just to let the the target do something that they could already do. And this is only useful when not using Blank Form.

Remove the trait cost and this becomes an additional Greater Transformation that is only usable when using an actual Form talent, granting a trait that is drawn from a pool of abilities the creature already has. I don't see any problems with that, balance or otherwise.



Twisted Transformation

Offensive shapeshifting is a great addition. This entry does raise some questions that need to be answered and the entries need to be cleaned up a bit.

First, with the base ability to damage someone under Shapeshift, we need more info/clarification. Right now you just have a one time damage component being applied to a durational effect without specifying if it takes an additional action, if it can only be used on initial cast, if it can be used multiple times during the same Shapeshift, if it can effect multiple targets, etc. I would suggest that you specify that it costs a swift action to trigger that is seperate from the casting of the actual Shapeshift and can be used multiple times within the duration of a given Shapeshift (and so cannot be used in conjunction with Permanent Transformation since it has no duration), that there is no save against the damage (it can only be used on someone who failed their save already), and that it effects any/all of the targets of a given Shapeshift. That should cover it.



Seal Eyes
Twist Legs

Remove references to the Fort saves. The target already had to fail one as part of the Shapeshift, do not imply that the ability requires multiple Fort saves to be failed.



Wrench Stomach

Much like the damage component of this talent this is an offensive option of a shorter duration than the Shapeshift that it is based on. Use the above damage aspect as a template for this trait as well for targeting and activation and such. While I'm tempted to say that you should remove the saves for this ability, Nausea is a potent condition. But I really don't like throwing on multiple saves for a debuff. How about saying that saves against this trait are at -4? They have already failed their initial save and you have actually shapeshifted their guts to twist at your command. Having a hard time resisting said twisting seems fair.



Vitality



Fast Healing

Sweet, sweet Fast Healing. The best out of combat healing in the game, and the worst in combat healing in the game. Do not fear it, embrace it. I'm specifically refering the restriction against using it in Permanent Transformation. Please remove said restriction. Level 10 is the earliest that it can be gained and even then it is a meager Fast Healing 2. By that time the party has enough resources that the game impact is minimal, merely letting the Life mage save some Spell Points to dramatically save someones life in combat instead of boringly patching people up afterward. Hell, even remove the increase in effectiveness, leaving it at Fast Healing 1, if you want. If you are going to add this as a trait, treat it like a trait.



Iron Gut
Glow of Health

The bonuses of these two are so narrowly focused that you should really just combine then both into one trait and call it a day.



Sleepless

Perhaps add that if this trait is maintained while the target rests then they can gain a full nights rest in 4 hours, just as if they were an elf.



Vocal Transformation

Another talent that really should be broken up and add to other talents. There just isn't enough here to justify the cost.



Gift of Speech

This would make more sense being added as a trait under Anthropomorphic Transformation.



Mimicry

This should really be under Perfect Imitation.



Roar

This one has a much better home waiting under Bestial Spirit.



Vocal Theft

And this one should belong to Twisted Transformation.




Advanced Magic
Advanced Talents for the Alteration Sphere



Fusion

This talent is immensely disappointing. While it is called Fusion it is really just a body swallowing Magic Jar knock off that lets the other mind mess with you. While I really like the potentially warring minds aspect as a great balancing point the physical fusion itself needs to be far more interesting than just having two people share one of their bodies. Also, you need to better incorporate this with the rest of the Alteration Sphere mechanics.

Here are some of my thoughts on this. First, merge the HP as actual HP. None of this temporary HP crap. All that does is make sure that no matter what healing is available or recovery the character is capable of the fused creatures will always be damaged when they seperate. It seems to imply that one of them is just being worn like a coat and is no longer an actual living creature. That is unintuitive and silly. Next, stick with one of the creatures being used as a base, that's good, just let it be effected by the other one (you know, because it's fusion). Have the non-dominant bodies' physical attribute bonuses apply as enhancment bonuses to the dominant bodies' corresponding attributes. This way they are greater than the sum of the parts and all that without becoming crazy. Then add a number of abilities from the non-dominant body equal to the number of traits that can be added with Shapeshift (similar to Retain Ability). Specify that traits from an active Shapeshift on the non-dominant body are valid options to add. Also say that these Fusion traits would replace a similar number of traits due to Shapeshift on the dominant body.

This would result in a much more powerful ability than what you have here but is also vastly more interesting. This version actually looks pretty balanced. You essentially have an advanced Shapeshift that provides an attribute and HP boost with a limited trait pool (the abilities of the other fused creature) at the cost of one character completely losing action economy and the other potentially being debuffed if he messes up a RP opportunity. That seems pretty interesting.



Homogenize

Get rid of the additional SP cost. The damage option of Twisted Transformation is expensive enough (1 SP to Shapeshift an unwilling target, 1 SP if you want to maintain it without concentration, 1 SP to actually do damage equal to the base damage of the Destruction Sphere), there is no reason to bloat it any further. Also, clarify the wording a little bit. Maybe something like...

"You may increase the damage from twisted transformation to 10 untyped damage per caster level, with a successful Fortitude save reducing damage to 1d6 plus 1d6 per two caster levels. A creature reduced to 0 HP or below by this ability becomes a homogenous pool of organic material."



Manipulate Healing
Regeneration

First, change the name of this trait from Regeneration to Regenerative Flesh or something. Regeneration is the specific name of a specific ability in this game. If you're not going to actually use said ability (which is fine btw) do not use the name. It just confuses things to no end. Also, the same advice here as in Vitality, remove the Permanent Transformation restriction. Especially for this trait which has virtually no mechanical value. Seriously, limb loss isn't really a component of this game outside of RP and DM shennanigans.



Transform Object

You really need to address the issue of control here. That normally isn't a factor with Alteration but when creating mindless creatures you need to mention who they'll listen to.




Incantations for the Alteration Sphere
Amalgamate

See what I said under Fusion. Twas a good idea to include the note to DM's.




Feats
Companion Merger

This is functionally identical to Fusion, so everything I mentioned there applies here as well. Also, broaden the direction of the Merger, let the familiar/companion merge with the player as well as the player merging with the familiar/companion. This would be a great way to get an animal companion into an area that it would otherwise be restricted from, or to allow an under-powered familiar/companion to at least provide a HP boost in a situation where it would otherwise be insta-gibbed.



Cursed Form

Great option and a smart addition to the game from both a player and a GM perspective. Also seems more balanced for this to be a feat instead of a talent. Nice job.



Mimicry

Another great option for a talent-starved Sphere. Well done.



Shifting Disguise

Remember what I was saying under Perfect Imitation? Another disguise option, that has a pre-requisite of already being able to perform this diguise option, that doesn't stack with any other disguise option. All this actually adds to the character is the ability to cosmetically alter a Blank Form without using a trait. Ye gods man! It costs a whole feat, let it actually do something! As with Perfect Imitation, let this stack with similar effects at half effectiveness. If a character is choosing to specialize this hard in disguise, let it be vaguely worth it.



Transformation
Improved Transformation
Hybrid Transformation

I bloody love these. They are versatile, elegant, flavourful, and I'm not see much in the way of balance problems vs just taking Basic/Advanced Magical Training. Well done.



Two-Headed Adept
Two Minds

I always like seeing such niche options given unique benefits. This is the sort of thing that inspires builds. Good job.



Web Mastery

This is cool but I think that you need to expand it a little and incorporate existing rules a bit more. The Web trait itself is pretty limited, only usable once per minute. Perhaps let it now be used a number of times per minute equal to Con bonus (min. 1)? Now a master of the web can use it semi-reliably in combat. Also, perhaps specify that multiple uses can be expended to make bigger wed traps.

Now, for the main feat ability, making an entangled victim helpless, you really need to spell this out since there are currently parts that are unclear and there are options in the core rules that will need to be addressed as well. First, can this be done at range? The base Web trait uses the Net weapon as a base and that has a tether with a range of up to 50'. Can a Web Master tug on his web from 50' away and make a target helpless? Can he yank on the edge of a web trap 10' away from an entangled target to bind them tight? I actually think that it should. You just need to specify. Next, can the Web Master approach the helpless target and leave the target Tied Up (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuvers) in his own web, boosting the escape DC to 20+CMB? I definitely think so. If they can take the action with a handy piece of rope they should definitely be able to do so with their web. Again, considering the nature of the game I think that you really need to spell these bits out.


As a last note on feats, I'd like to make a suggestion. Add a feat called Morphic Mastery (or Formless Master, or anything else) allowing the caster to apply a Blank Form Shapeshift to a creature already under the effect of another Shapeshift, temporarily replacing selected existing traits with those of the new Blank Form. There are so many options for a character to have pre-existing alteration traits, from Permanent Transformation, to the Warp Flesh Incantation, and even the Transformation tree of feats, there should be a reason to keep using Alteration. Providing an option to swap out traits (not stack them) without having to reinvent the entire form every time will go a long way in maintaining the Alteration specialists role as a versatile troubleshooter even after more permanent options are available.




Sphere-Specific Drawbacks

These are all good. Very nice mix of flavour and drawback. Well done.




Traits

Again, all good and fitting. Consider adding a Fusion based trait that allows the user to get a +2 bonus on Will saves for dominance and doesn't count as being the target of Shapeshift so long as they are on the non-dominant side of the fusion. That may sound a little weird, but I really think there should be a way for Flesh Warpers to indirectly utilize their Alteration sphere. Being unable to change themselves but being able to step into those they do change (with all of the attendand potential problems) would be an interesting option for one of the most restrictive drawbacks in the game. For some reason I'm getting a mental image of a Flesh Warper getting ambushed on the road, having to Shapeshift his mule into a tentacled, giant, dragon-beast of doom, wearing it like a giant sock puppet, all the while having to make mental Handle Animal checks to calm a frightened animal, simultaneously fighting off marauders. And seeing a player take the time to teach all of their pack animals a trick to be cool with fusion. I want to see that in a game.

[Mithril Leaf]

Does Shifting Disguise persist after death or no such luck?

[stack]

This has been an open tab on my browser for a month so it's about time that I finally comment on it. Damn fine work Stack. I'm going to go through and provide some comments/thoughts on the points that stood out to me. If I don't mention something then I generally think that it's good.

As with any PEACH I do I'm never sure how tone comes across on the internet so just remember that I like what you're doing here and I think that I'm helping. Always glad to get feedback.



Originally I had preferred the previous Mutagen option but this new version has really grown on me and provides a much more elegant solution with better balance (I think). The only suggestion that I can think of is to have the number of traits granted be modified by Greater Transformation and Extreme Transformation and specify that these traits would replace an equal number of traits (up to their normal maximum) that are already active. Interesting idea, I'll have to think about it but it does reward grabbing the talents more than otherwise without going to overboard. I'm thinking its a good idea.



Now this is really where you struck gold. This one little ability singlehandedly supplies half the flavour for the archetype and solves the problem of using a Talent-hungry sphere like Alteration on a Talent-starved class like the Thaumaturge. Good work. The only suggestion that I would make would be to have the expended sample apply to any/all alchemical boosts made during a given preperation instead of being used up on a per-boost basis. You have an extremely limited number of samples that can be maintained and the alchemical boosts loose potency when another batch is prepared so I cannot see any real means of abuse, but it does let the player get more use out of an extremely limited resource, increasing the utility and value of that resource. Worth considering. Really needs to see action in play to test it out, but it sounds reasonable. Balancing the scarcity of samples needs some fine-tuning.




Standard option for specialized archetypes. I would strongly suggest adding Flesh Warper as an alternate (mutually exclusive) drawback to Lycanthropic. I think that both Dr. Jekyll and Dr. Moreau are valid expressions of this archetype and should be given official sanction. Since Flesh Warper doesn't conflict with Forbidden Alchemy I think that this is an especially good option (one that you should definitely leave in). That would be a bit unusual, but it makes sense in the context. Implemented.




This is the sexy goodness that I've been looking to mix with Spheres of power for so long. Again, I thank you. I would recomend that you specifically state that the effects of Discoveries can count as Sphere use where applicable. Even going so far as to say that the discovery can be further modified with additional applicable talents without needing prerequisites so long as it only applies to the qualifying discovery.

Reading that over it may need some clarification. Say the Experimentalist takes the Alchemical Zombie discovery, this would qualify him to take Empowered Reanimate, Expanded Necromancy, or to use Necrotic Senses on the products of the discovery, without having to purchase the base Death sphere. Even qualifying for the Greater Undead Advanced Talent since the Alchemical Zombie discovery covers the effects of all of the prerequisites. All of these upgrades applying only to the creation of Alchemical Zombies as described in the discovery (gold cost and all).

The key here is that I think you need to make sure that the sometimes complex effects of some of the discoveries can be integrated into SoP without the talent-starved Thaumaturge having to relearn something he can already do just to get an upgrade. Give it some thought. This one would be a little more difficult to implement. Not sure how many discoveries would need to be noted or how neatly they would transfer. I'll think about it.



Another suprisingly subtle option that solves a lot of problems before they happen. Bummed that a Discovery that you want unlocks at 8th level but you can't select it till 9th? Flexible Research. Shedding tears of frustration that you cannot take the Vivisectionist archetype and keep suckling upon the sweet teat of Sneak Attack? Flexible Research. Nice job. I'm considering removing the normal feat options and making it discovery/sneak attack, or discovery/sneak attack/alteration talent. Thoughts?



As you can tell I'm quite fond of the Experimentalist. Me too. I think the recent retool helped it quite a bit also.




When using these in Bestial Traits or Mystic Combats remove the Spell Point costs. Avoid SP bloat whenever possible. These options are more flavourful than functional and do not deserve the extra cost. Grafted weapons have some advantages, like stacking enchantments between the weapon and an amulet of mighty fists, plus larger die size/crit range. The unlimited duration for getting the effects of a trait seemed to warrant a SP cost.




I am both happy and sad with this one. With the previous incarnation, with the multiple option aberrant templates, I did regret the lack of trait options. Now I have all of the trait options (yay!) but now it is devoid of a base form, which I think is a real missed opportunity. At least one of the base forms in the game should have a disturbing distrubution of tentacles. This should be it. Granted, aberrants are an extremely mixed bag, so how about doing something like what you have done with Anarchic Transformation? Something like ...

"You may grant the form of an aberration with your shapeshift. The target gains a head (in addition to its body) a 10 ft. land speed, a +2 natural armor bonus which increases by 1 per 5 caster levels, and darkvision 60 ft. Additionally, you may choose four of any of the following: a pair of legs granting 30 ft. land speed, increasing by 10 ft. per additional pair, a pair of tentacle natural attacks (secondary, 1d4 Medium, 1d3 Small) that can manipulate objects as a human’s hands can (can be selected twice), a head (each additional head grants a +2 bonus on Perception checks), a tail, or any of the traits added by this talent. These options may be chosen more than once (unless specified otherwise). The base form does not possess legs, so cannot be tripped unless legs are added."

Note the bolding. First is a needed addition to the wording in Anarchic Transformation. Everything else states what limbs/nubs the form starts with, this needs it as well. I recommend the four options for aberrants since they have no resistances and such.


Add the first bolded section that I mentioned above and you should be good. I had significant pushback against the base forms for aberrant. I also want to avoid too much overlap between aberrant and anarchic, which obviously can be mechanically similar.




This feels weirdly out of place. Not in a completely bad way, just... like you are overstepping the bounds of Alteration. What if you had a prerequisite of having access to the Alter ability of the Creation sphere? Simple, covers all the bases, and the talent now makes sense. Thoughts? Basic talents don't have prerequisites. Could move it to a feat, but you are, fluff-wise, turning it into an animal rather than simply animating the object (which would be enhancement).




This whole 'you have better reach but not when it actually counts' thing has always seemed like a cop-out to me. Size Change is already there and offers bonuses in addition to reach. If you are going to have this as an option just let it provide full reach, threatened area and all. If the sheer range of the reach is a problem perhaps reduce it to 5 ft. plus 5 additional ft. per 10 caster levels. That is seriously prefferable to reach that is not reach. Hmm, giving real reach at reduced scaling for those that don't want size change could work, I'm just leery of the ridiculous threatened area you could achieve (already can if you have encompassing light).



This one just makes me sad. It is just such a waste of a talent. If it was 5 rounds then It might have a purpose at lower levels but a 2 round extension is just a slap in the face. Please, do something with this.

How about lingering in the same way as Lingering Necromancy? When spending a Spell Point to maintain a Shapeshift without concentration the duration becomes 1 hour/level instead of 1 min./level. This would synergize much better with some of the options under Twisted Transformation. Two rounds is the standard pattern for similar talents in other spheres, though nature did have an additional feat to stretch it out a bit further. Its still nive to have when you are low/out of SP and need to use shapeshift.



This is just such a small, niche option that I don't really think that it should be it's own talent, it just isn't really worth it. Perhaps give some thought to adding them as additional trait options to Vermin Transformation or something like that. They are interesting options, just not by themselves. I have tried to avoid adding additional trait options to existing talents. Odoriferous probably needs an additional option though. Maybe a save bonus against sickened/nauseated?

Anyhow, I'll have to come back and respond more another time. I appreciate the feedback and ideas. Also feel free to drop comments on the doc itself.

[Quarian Rex]

Always glad to get feedback.

Interesting idea, I'll have to think about it but it does reward grabbing the talents more than otherwise without going to overboard. I'm thinking its a good idea.

Glad to hear.



Worth considering. Really needs to see action in play to test it out, but it sounds reasonable. Balancing the scarcity of samples needs some fine-tuning.

My main worry with Consumption was that with the small number of samples and extremely limited application of them that the player might fall into a too-precious-to-lose mentality and keep saving the samples for when he really 'needs' them. Having the sample apply to an entire batch gives him the security of having a boost left over for the time of need. Get into a hairy situation? Well, I do have this Boost here... oh well. Might as well make another batch with this precious sample, since I can keep one for the Time-of-Need™. And so the cycle continues. I just think that it might be required to 'trick' some players into actually getting some use out of the ability.



That would be a bit unusual, but it makes sense in the context. Implemented.

Me so happy.



This one would be a little more difficult to implement. Not sure how many discoveries would need to be noted or how neatly they would transfer. I'll think about it.

Off the top of my head the biggest considerations would be Alchemical Zombie and Alchemical Simulacrum, since both would be the end result of a fair bit of sphere interaction.



I'm considering removing the normal feat options and making it discovery/sneak attack, or discovery/sneak attack/alteration talent. Thoughts?

I would probably leave the bonus feats in. Though I love what you have done with the Experimentalist, Alteration doesn't really play to the Thaumaturges strengths quite as well as Conjuration, Death, or even Destruction. I think the archetype benefits from the added versatility. That, and it makes for some hard choices. The harder the choice, the better the options you have provided.



Grafted weapons have some advantages, like stacking enchantments between the weapon and an amulet of mighty fists, plus larger die size/crit range. The unlimited duration for getting the effects of a trait seemed to warrant a SP cost.

I must respectfully disagree good sir. Amulets of Mighty Fists (and the like) have never been considered an optimal purchase and an outlier case like that should have no effect on balancing this kind of ability. As for the larger die size/crit range, do you mean as compated to being unarmed? Because I saw nothing in the trait description that the weapon gets an increased damage die or crit range. Assuming that you meant vs. unarmed, I would ask that you compare vs. being armed with the actual weapon. The only actual benefit is disarm immunity, outside of niche cases of waking up naked in prison.

Make no mistake, I love me some weapon shaping/grafting. If such an option is available I inevitably find myself taking it, but I am also aware that it is almost solely due to Rule-of-Cool, not mechanical advantage (now that I think about it, it is customary to give Shaped/Grafted weapons a +1 circumstance bonus to hit and damage. That should definitely be added in. This doesn't change my assessment of its power but it does provide a mechanical reason to select it). If there is no exceptional mechanical advantage then there should be no exceptional mechanical cost (aka. the Spell point).



I had significant pushback against the base forms for aberrant. I also want to avoid too much overlap between aberrant and anarchic, which obviously can be mechanically similar.

I think you had the pushback because you tried to pigeon hole one of the most variable creature types in the game into a few very specific forms that were not very adaptable. Players turn to aberrations if they just watched John Carpenter's The Thing, or if they have a Lovecraft itch they want to scratch. If, with that inspiration, a player finds that they have to choose from Aboleth, Flumph, and Roper, to make their vision a reality then you will experience all of the pushback. (As an aside, you may have the same problem with Ooze Transformation as well. Too many similar ooze options. Probably best to make one generic ooze form and put most of the differentiating characteristics into traits)

As for overlap with anarchic, I wouldn't worry much. You have a brand new mechanic never seen in Forms before. Having it apply to two forms is not much of an issue, especially when it fits so damn well. However, if you really think that the variable form mechanic should not be repeated, I would urge you to apply it to aberration instead of anarchic. Aberrations are the creature type that can actually be just about anything. Chaos in 3.5/Pathfinder doesn't tend to express itself in myriad possibilities of form (as many would suspect) but instead seeks to answer every question with either a giant frog (Slaad) or floaty two-armed bird-eel (Protean). Less kaleidoscope of flesh and more incarnation of a Monty Python sketch.

Please consider. Aberrations need some love. You know you want to...



Basic talents don't have prerequisites. Could move it to a feat, but you are, fluff-wise, turning it into an animal rather than simply animating the object (which would be enhancement).

Basic talents have so far just been covering the very core concepts of their respective spheres. You, sir, are going a little more esoteric on us here. Seriously though, you have one sphere that manipulates matter, and one that manipulates flesh. I have no problem blurring the lines but I really think that you have to give a nod to the other half of the effect. Shovel is not flesh. Want to warp shovel as if it was flesh? Well then you need to know how to alter shovel as well as warp flesh.

Like I said, it is a simple change that removes a lot of problems/dissonance.



Hmm, giving real reach at reduced scaling for those that don't want size change could work, I'm just leery of the ridiculous threatened area you could achieve (already can if you have encompassing light).

*Shrug* Like you said, the options are already there. No need to cripple your contribution. And with reach, you don't need it to be huge, you just need it to do what you think it should.



Two rounds is the standard pattern for similar talents in other spheres, though nature did have an additional feat to stretch it out a bit further. Its still nive to have when you are low/out of SP and need to use shapeshift.

Oh, I get the standard pattern, I just don't think that it has a place here. Shapeshift durations are respectable at a min/level, generally lasting a combat or two, but then it takes a jump to permanent at 10th level (don't even pretend that it isn't a mandatory purchase) so the sphere is already considered to be in the long duration buff niche. I just think that this would be the perfect place to bridge the gap between the two. It also opens a lot of fun options for non-trivial curses, offensive Shapeshift based prisoner transport, etc. All things where a longer but not permanent duration would be desired.



I have tried to avoid adding additional trait options to existing talents. Odoriferous probably needs an additional option though. Maybe a save bonus against sickened/nauseated?

I understand that, but remember that Alteration is already a very talent-hungry sphere. Each time you ask the player to spend a talent it has to be on something that is at least comparable to the many, many other options that already exist. It is far better to give the player more for what he has already spent than it is to charge him for too little.

Now, Odiferous might be salvageable, Nauseated ia a potent condition, but you are essentially blowing off a talent solely for Nauseating Spray. Perhaps add that any creature that bites you while under the effect of Stench is automatically Nauseated till the end of it's next turn with no save (it negated any save when it tried to swallow a piece if you). I'm not sure.

Vocal Transformation, on the other hand, really needs to be broken up. The effects are far to niche and even their thematic connection is pretty weak, just being vaguely voice related, and some not even that. I stand by my recommendations for this one.



Anyhow, I'll have to come back and respond more another time. I appreciate the feedback and ideas. Also feel free to drop comments on the doc itself.
Yup, I'll definitely put some words on the doc eventually, it's just that the initial review can get a bit wordy and I really didn't want to clutter things up too much.

[EldritchWeaver]

Oh, I get the standard pattern, I just don't think that it has a place here. Shapeshift durations are respectable at a min/level, generally lasting a combat or two, but then it takes a jump to permanent at 10th level (don't even pretend that it isn't a mandatory purchase) so the sphere is already considered to be in the long duration buff niche. I just think that this would be the perfect place to bridge the gap between the two. It also opens a lot of fun options for non-trivial curses, offensive Shapeshift based prisoner transport, etc. All things where a longer but not permanent duration would be desired.

Note that only the druid archetype and the shifter have a medium duration length, so anything in addition shouldn't kill their niche (the shifter is probly the one in danger here). That being said, I wouldn't mind having such an option per se.

[stack]

I have been specifically avoiding increasing the duration with a general option to not diminish the shifter. Shapeshift is already pretty nice at minutes per level, so I don't feel bad about it.

[Quarian Rex]

I have been specifically avoiding increasing the duration with a general option to not diminish the shifter. Shapeshift is already pretty nice at minutes per level, so I don't feel bad about it.

Hmm, outdoing the Shapeshifter is something that I hadn't considered, and is a valid concern. The problem that I have is that while I do actually see the value in a lingering type talent for some spheres, I see it as actually being almost detrimental to Alteration. Due to the touch nature of Shapeshift and the buffing nature of the sphere the mage will always be casting in the thick of combat if this talent is to be used. Either having to run between allies and re-touch them every three rounds, or, if they have buffed themselves, casting in a threatened area, exactly where a caster doesn't want to be. Yes, there can be situations where this can come in handy, especially in the early levels, but it is minimal value for the investment.

What if you combined this with a delayed access duration boost? Sort of like Shifter-lite. Initial purchase of the talent provides the 2 rnd extension and at 12th(?) level duration when spending a Spell point becomes 10 min/level. Shifter still gets to be king of non-permanent durations but other Alteration users have the option of playing a little bit of delayed catch-up.

Also, a note on the 10 min/level duration. It isn't worth as much as you might think it is. The three milestones of duration are 1 rnd/level (might be enough to get you through a combat), 1 min/level (will definitely last all of a combat, maybe two if they are close), and 1 hr/level (pretty much covered for most of the day). The 10 min/level covers an awkward little niche that rarely gets touched. If the party has triggered a meat-grinder and they're getting hit with waves then the 1 min/level duration pretty much has them covered. A more standard encounter is usually prefaced with, "A few hours go by, make a perception check...", making the hr/level buffs the only ones that matter. There will be some cases where the mid duration comes in handy, and you'll be glad to have it, but those times are relatively rare.

My point here is that while the actual value of the 10 min/level duration is pretty minimal, the perceived value is actually pretty high. Hence my suggestion to combine two marginal options into one not bad one that is still well balanced. These are my thoughts on it anyway. Yours?

[EldritchWeaver]

I have been specifically avoiding increasing the duration with a general option to not diminish the shifter. Shapeshift is already pretty nice at minutes per level, so I don't feel bad about it.


Shifter still gets to be king of non-permanent durations but other Alteration users have the option of playing a little bit of delayed catch-up.

I remember during the SoP playtest that I told Adam that the druid outshifted the shifter and to remedy this, both druid should be nerfed and the shifter improved. As it is, only the nerf had been implemented, which as consequence has the shifter, the master of shapeshifts, still being outmatched by the druid (both archetype and core class). And in addition, this also prevents that Alteration users have a chance to improve the duration in a way which is useful. Adding 2 rounds to something which is measured in minutes is usually not noticeable. The idea to use this a concentration-buff where you always immediately cease concentration is quite cheesy (even if not particular powerful, considering you can affect only three allies and sacrificing your own standard actions). So any solution, which provides some kind of benefit to Alteration users and not stepping on the shifters toes requires that the shifter moves his feet. In other words, buff the shifter class.


Also, a note on the 10 min/level duration. It isn't worth as much as you might think it is. The three milestones of duration are 1 rnd/level (might be enough to get you through a combat), 1 min/level (will definitely last all of a combat, maybe two if they are close), and 1 hr/level (pretty much covered for most of the day). The 10 min/level covers an awkward little niche that rarely gets touched. If the party has triggered a meat-grinder and they're getting hit with waves then the 1 min/level duration pretty much has them covered. A more standard encounter is usually prefaced with, "A few hours go by, make a perception check...", making the hr/level buffs the only ones that matter. There will be some cases where the mid duration comes in handy, and you'll be glad to have it, but those times are relatively rare.

I agree with that analysis. After all, 3.5 nerfed hour-duration buffs to 10 minutes-duration buffs, because the casters at high levels had nothing else to use these second level slots for. In SoP, you can require SPs to spend and that can hurt the SP supply, if you don't use drawbacks or classes granting extra SPs.

[stack]

Amulet of mighty fists is not optimal unless you are a natural attacker. Which, if you are using alteration heavily, is pretty likely.

More responses:

Ooze transformation - Hesitant to grant blindsight without giving up normal sight. Ooze transform blinds you currently.

Orb Transform - this one has been tricky. I want to keep it, but I haven't come up with much. The size reduction is really the best thing I've heard. I don't necessarily think adding arms should cancel that either (i keep thinking of the smiling green thing on some editions of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy).

Perfect Imitation: Skill check inflation is part of it, but logically they shouldn't stack. Once you look like something, I don't see how using another effect to do the same thing helps. Adding an illusion on top of your perfect likeness doesn't give you the correct posture, diction, etc. Getting the free basic disguise is an interesting suggestion though. Added.

Powerful Limbs: stacking size increases are pretty potent in the builds that want them. Getting powerful build on top of size change gets you big dice pretty quick. The bonuses to lifting and carrying capacity are implemented.

Protean mastery - Interesting idea. Put in a reset time.

Retain Ability - this one was meant to be niche, something for when you have a powerful breath weapon, unusual natural attack, or some other peculiar feature. Allowing it to add on top of you other forms weights more heavily in favor of races that can take advantage of it, ones that already benefit from blank form.

Twisted Transformation - Added that it can effect all targets and applies when they fail their save. I don't think it ought to have an ongoing option, the damage is from the shapeshift itself, you don't have ongoing control over the effect.

The traits do require additional saves, similar to animal mind. Alteration can be a nasty debuff option as it is, so I think an additional chance against the further debuffs is fair. Sickened/nauseated are trading trait slots for conditions, I think the limited duration and additional saves are fair here too. Again, alteration is wickedly powerful as a debuff tool if you can beat the target's fort save.

Vitality - I had a lot of complaints about permanent fast healing. I don't think its a big deal personally, but there is a noticable contingent that is firmly opposed to unlimited healing in the game. Combining the bonuses is fair. Done. Do PF elves get the reduced sleep time thing? I don't see it listed as a mechanical ability for them.

[Mithril Leaf]

Vitality - I had a lot of complaints about permanent fast healing. I don't think its a big deal personally, but there is a noticable contingent that is firmly opposed to unlimited healing in the game. Combining the bonuses is fair. Done. Do PF elves get the reduced sleep time thing? I don't see it listed as a mechanical ability for them.

You can already buy Fast Healing for feat from DSP or 5 grand from Paizo.

Slot feet; Price 5,000 gp; Weight 5 lbs.
Description
These sturdy leather dwarven boots have soles made of thick gray marble. As a move action, the wearer can plant her feet and draw strength from the earth, gaining fast healing 1 and a +4 bonus to CMD to resist bull rush, repositionAPG, and trip combat maneuver attempts. These effects end if the wearer moves or is moved, knocked prone, or rendered unconscious.

Overflowing Life [Heritage]
You have developed unusual amounts of life force in your body.
Prerequisites: Toughness, and aberration, fey, ooze, or plant
type.
Benefits: You gain fast healing 2.
Not saying people didn't complain, but it's not really hard to get.

EDIT: Oh yeah though, the main thing I wanted to post was that now that you're making the Alteration book, you can do something about the ambiguity of Anthropomorphic Transformation granting feats. If the boss man says it doesn't, can I persuade you to provide an advanced talent that does much the same?

[EldritchWeaver]

You can already buy Fast Healing for feat from DSP or 5 grand from Paizo.


Not saying people didn't complain, but it's not really hard to get.

I'd say, not including permanency hurts more than including it. Those truly against the infinite healing will houserule permanency away, but it is far less likely that people will houserule permanency in.

Edit: Also note, that in combination of the concentration duration, you can heal the entire party in 10 minutes even without permanency factoring in, so people complaining about this aspect have to strike the entire talent to actually achieve their goal.

[stack]

By level 10 healing the entire party is pretty trivial through a variety of methods. The complaint was permanent transformation healing the entire party forever. I don't think it's a big deal, like I said, but am trying to consider everyone.

I've ever seen those boots. Surprised those for published at that price, usually such things are hideously inflated cost wise.

[stack]

Continued responses to Quarian Rex:

Fusion: I changed the HP to real HP awhile back, so yes, I agree with you. :smalltongue: Do note that you can still apply forms and traits as usual to the fusion shapeshift. I was leery of adding stack bonuses to it, both for complexity (its already really long) and for fear of crossing sphere boundaries, as I have already been accused of doing. Retaining some abilities is a good idea. Too bad that means I have to dive back in an modify that wall of text again.

Homogenize: It warrants the extra cost, I think. It is basically a save twice or die effect. Note that you don't have to spend the point to continue the effect without concentration right away, I would see if it survives first, potentially reducing your cost. Three SP for a PF save or die (many save or die spells were converted to 10 HP per CL when coming from 3.5) is in line with SP verses spell level approximations. One more SP makes it a mass save or die with mass alteration.

Regeneration was so named because originally it WAS regeneration. Which is also why it wasn't allowed to be made permanent. Changing it now.

Transform Object - ooh, yeah, that's a big one. Stealing the text from animate object.

Companion merger - Interesting though one letting it go the other way. I'll take a look at it. I wanted companion merger to be a weaker, more limited fusion to make it available at tables that would balk at the advanced talent. Still, adding your companions natural attacks to yourself could be interesting.

Shifting disguise - the real benefit intended here is duration. It is unlimited. Intended for infiltrators/spies/etc. Become a changeling for the cost of a feat (or two, if you don't have access to alteration already).

Web Mastery - good thoughts all around. Limited to being within reach, since spinning a web tightly around them from 50 ft seemed off. Tied up is niche, but a good option for targets you don't want to CDG. Since I'm in a game where we just had to deal with our wizard getting possessed, the utility of such an ability if fresh in my mind. Too bad I didn't have it.

Considering the additional suggestion. I've tried to make transformation and such stack and suggested that change shape and the like should be allowed to as well. Letting you just swap trait on an existing shapeshift though...hmm. Seems like that should be a problem, have to mull it over to see if I can find one.

Trait suggestion - that would be pretty narrow and not apply for a long time.

[Mithril Leaf]

Just wanted to point out that an Experimentalist can totally be a fake Hedgewitch by routing the Alchemy Talents into Hedgewitch Traditions through the Geomancer option. I don't see any crazy advantages yet, but it could be handy.

EDIT: You can get Versatile Performance which could be sweet.

EDIT2: Spiritualist rocks pretty hard for a Thaumaturge in certain circumstances.

[stack]

Just wanted to point out that an Experimentalist can totally be a fake Hedgewitch by routing the Alchemy Talents into Hedgewitch Traditions through the Geomancer option. I don't see any crazy advantages yet, but it could be handy.

EDIT: You can get Versatile Performance which could be sweet.

EDIT2: Spiritualist rocks pretty hard for a Thaumaturge in certain circumstances.

Never thought of that. Spiritualism is sweet on any sphere caster, but on a thaumaturge? Hard to take anything else.

[Mithril Leaf]

Hey Stack, could you maybe elaborate on Fluid Body? It says
Fluid Body: The target can move through an area as small as one-quarter its space without squeezing or one-eighth its space when squeezing.

Let's say I'm huge. How many tiles do I take up for the purpose of movement and squeezing and such? Is it 1/4 off all dimensions or total volume? Which way do we round? It seems that a Large Creature would able to move freely in a 1 tile wide and tall tunnel is the obvious intention, but beyond that I'm not clear. Also would it stack with Small Stature out of Bloodforge?

[stack]

Hey Stack, could you maybe elaborate on Fluid Body? It says

Let's say I'm huge. How many tiles do I take up for the purpose of movement and squeezing and such? Is it 1/4 off all dimensions or total volume? Which way do we round? It seems that a Large Creature would able to move freely in a 1 tile wide and tall tunnel is the obvious intention, but beyond that I'm not clear. Also would it stack with Small Stature out of Bloodforge?


Squeezing is defined by the width of the passage in the rules I am seeing.In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn't as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.

When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4 squares) squeezes into a space that's 1 square wide, the creature's miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into. so a huge creature has a space 15' wide, so can go through a space a bit less than 4' without taking squeezing penalties. Rules quoted don't seem to account for height, so I guess it work the same in both directions, allowing a fluid body huge creature to move through a 5x5 hallway without penalty.

Don't know the text of small frame. I could see it going either way, conceptually.

[khadgar567]

is symbiotic knight with fusion tallent ( used on symbiot) get hardness or I am talking from my arse( this isnt first time I accidentally use arse speak skill)

[stack]

is symbiotic knight with fusion tallent ( used on symbiot) get hardness or I am talking from my arse( this isnt first time I accidentally use arse speak skill)

The symbiotic knight's symbiot isn't actually a separate creature as far as the rules go, so it can't actually be targeted beyond sunder and the like.

[khadgar567]

The symbiotic knight's symbiot isn't actually a separate creature as far as the rules go, so it can't actually be targeted beyond sunder and the like.
okay then thanks for clearing

[stack]

okay then thanks for clearing

I suppose if you animated it first, since it might count as an object when in armor form...not sure what it technically counts as to determine if that would work.

[khadgar567]

I suppose if you animated it first, since it might count as an object when in armor form...not sure what it technically counts as to determine if that would work.
were talking about something can cover your body, create weapons from itself I personally call it monster hell you guys in extended options call it creature so I think its eligible to be fused with armorist problem is lets say we ask him to make admantine suit then pop the fusion talent to merge with him question is what happens did we just get 20hardness and bonus ......................... this does not compute error this does not compute

[Mithril Leaf]

Squeezing is defined by the width of the passage in the rules I am seeing.In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn't as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.

When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4 squares) squeezes into a space that's 1 square wide, the creature's miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into. so a huge creature has a space 15' wide, so can go through a space a bit less than 4' without taking squeezing penalties. Rules quoted don't seem to account for height, so I guess it work the same in both directions, allowing a fluid body huge creature to move through a 5x5 hallway without penalty.

Don't know the text of small frame. I could see it going either way, conceptually.

Thanks, that makes Fluid Body really awesome. Here's the rules part of Small Stature.

Small Stature [Heritage]
Benefits: You gain the flexible frame special quality, which
allows you to function in many ways as though you were one
size smaller.
If you would be subject to a size modifier or a special
size modifier for an opposed check (such as Stealth), you are
treated as being one size smaller if it is advantageous to you.
You are considered to be one size smaller when
“squeezing through” restrictive spaces, and may use
weapons designed for creatures one size smaller without
penalty. Your space and reach remain that of a creature
your actual size. The effects of this ability stack with those of
abilities, powers, and spells that change the subject’s size.

[stack]

Virtual size increases don't stack, so I would be inclined to say that virtual size decreases shouldn't either, but I can't say I've ever seen the question discussed. Combining the two would get you through very small spaces though.

[Mithril Leaf]

Virtual size increases don't stack, so I would be inclined to say that virtual size decreases shouldn't either, but I can't say I've ever seen the question discussed. Combining the two would get you through very small spaces though.

That's fair, and less of an issue now that I've realized for 10 grand I can get 20 hours a day of CL 20 Encompassing Light. So Huge Size from permanent Transformation, CL 20 Encompassing Light brings us up to Colossal, now I've got that lovely base 30 foot reach. 60 feet when I'm using a polearm. Fluid form is quite nice due to the fact that such a character now works inside of dungeons instead of being useless.

[EldritchWeaver]

What do you think of a talent (maybe as part of Lingering Transformation), which increases the length of the shapeshift (when spending a spell point) by e.g. doubling the duration? Or make it count as 5 CLs higher? That way, you don't intrude on the shtick of the shifter. At least once he reaches 9th level, when he doesn't want to spend a magic talent on increasing the duration.

[stack]

What do you think of a talent (maybe as part of Lingering Transformation), which increases the length of the shapeshift (when spending a spell point) by e.g. doubling the duration? Or make it count as 5 CLs higher? That way, you don't intrude on the shtick of the shifter. At least once he reaches 9th level, when he doesn't want to spend a magic talent on increasing the duration.

Rolling in a free extend with lingering could work.

[EldritchWeaver]

Regarding the permanency of the Fast Healing trait: Lords of the Wild has this feat:


Feral Vitality
Prerequisite: Shapechanger subtype, Toughness
Benefit: You gain fast healing 2.

If you wonder about how normal people get that shapechanger subtype, you only need to take the Chimera Soul tradition. So the barrier is relatively low already. Also, I found that thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tnk1?Is-Giving-Fast-Healing-to-PCs-Overpowered) where people talk about fast healing and similar effects.

[stack]

I personally don't think fast healing at level 10 would be a big deal at all, but enough people complain about it that I will leave it out. I suspect the same people would hate or ban that feat. In this case I prefer to leave it where you can house rule it stronger rather than house rule it weaker in that regard.

[EldritchWeaver]

I personally don't think fast healing at level 10 would be a big deal at all, but enough people complain about it that I will leave it out. I suspect the same people would hate or ban that feat. In this case I prefer to leave it where you can house rule it stronger rather than house rule it weaker in that regard.

The Paizo thread contained an interesting point, namely that Fast Healing is a game changer. And game changers in SoP are handled by placing things into the Advanced section. So maybe add a note, that permanencying it requires explicit GM permission? That way, both groups are satisfied.

[stack]

Permanent transformation already requires explicit permission, so it does seem like the whole thing may be overblown. I'll think on it a bit.

[Omnificer]

How does the Mageknight Resizer handle its equipment when changing size? Since it is still a polymorph effect, my understanding is that equipment will merge into the body, meaning the knight will be naked whenever he uses his signature ability.

Maybr this question was asked about Size Change when the main Spheres of Power book came out, but I haven't been able to find any discussion on it.

[stack]

Defaults to the general Polymorph rules, so if you are changing your shape stuff merges, but just changing size (such as adding size change to blank form) your equipment resizes to fit.

[Omnificer]

Defaults to the general Polymorph rules, so if you are changing your shape stuff merges, but just changing size (such as adding size change to blank form) your equipment resizes to fit.

Ah, I see now that I didn't understand the general polymorph rules to begin with and that's the source of my confusion. Rereading it with your statement in mind it makes sense now. Thank you for taking the time to explain that.

[stack]

Ah, I see now that I didn't understand the general polymorph rules to begin with and that's the source of my confusion. Rereading it with your statement in mind it makes sense now. Thank you for taking the time to explain that.

I have had to reread them more than a few times in the course of this project and happen to have just checked that specific thing about two weeks ago. It's a big system, lots of little things like that which you can never have to know in play for a long time until some odd situation comes up.

[Mehangel]

Defaults to the general Polymorph rules, so if you are changing your shape stuff merges, but just changing size (such as adding size change to blank form) your equipment resizes to fit.

Have you put any thought to including a sidebar including the general polymorph rules somewhere in the handbook? It might make referencing it easier for both GMs and Players who use it.

[stack]

Have you put any thought to including a sidebar including the general polymorph rules somewhere in the handbook? It might make referencing it easier for both GMs and Players who use it.

I suppose tossing that in the back wouldn't be a bad idea.

[Omnificer]

Am I correct in my understanding that a (medium sized) Resizer would still need to obtain the Size Mastery Talent (and the actual Size Change talent) to reach Colossal size? Or in other words that Tiny and Titanic only provides that one extra step for 1 SP and not the full Size Mastery talent allowing for two extra steps for 2 SP at 20th level?


I have to say, I really appreciate how simple yet effective the Resizer archetype is.

Size Focus is simple, but has a lot of utility. In combat, it's reliable for more damage and reach or better stealth and defense. Outside of combat you can be intimidating or hold up collapsing beams as your party escapes. Or you can escape from the jail cell with bars just too wide or hide in the cookie jar while the guard checks the wine barrel.

Agile Strength lets people take full advantage of both of those paths and not compromise their favorite builds, such as reach builds.

Size Change provides all of that, but as a tool you sometimes use, not as something that defines you. Enduring Change is what really makes it an identity.

That's when you help complete a castle wall in a single day by carrying giant blocks of stone for hours on end, or when you sit through the tedious parliamentary procedure of the faerie kingdom, because you're the only one who can fit (for long enough) in their tree house castle.

I really look forward to trying to it out.

[stack]

Resizer cannot currently reach colossal size with size mastery. I have been considering adding a mystic combat to allow it since a single mystic combat would be easy to disallow in games that don't allow the similar advanced talent.

Glad you like it. I admit that it is kind of my pet archetype for this book. Can't help it, always get attached to a few things. I'm playing one in Wrath of the Righteous, grappling build. Been fun. Dipped unchained monk to make dragon style and the second feat in the chain work for boosting unarmed damage.

[stack]

Reaching the last stretch of the playtest. Per suggestions, I have added the ability for the beastsoul monk to take alteration talents in place of ki powers (or swap ala Quingong for the chained monk). Trying to take care of a few remaining points regarding the fusion advanced talent and allowing it to be more of a buff as well as allowing companion merger to work in the opposite direction.

[RedMop]

I'm trying to catch you before going to print.

Under Star-Spawn Transformation, the prereq is Aberrant Transformation. The talent is called Aberrant Body. One of those should probably be changed.

[stack]

I'm trying to catch you before going to print.

Under Star-Spawn Transformation, the prereq is Aberrant Transformation. The talent is called Aberrant Body. One of those should probably be changed.

Thanks, I'll pass that along. Should still be time to fix it.

[RedMop]

How does Protean shifter's Breadth of Forms work, duration wise, when combined with Lingering, Permanent Transformstion, and spending spell points to extend it.

Level 12 Protean Shifter with the Permanent Transformation and Lingering Transformation talents

Scenarios:

Scenario 1 - doing it all in 1 round:

Round 1 Move Action: Breadth of Form to get Orb Transformation
Round 1 Standard Action: Transform into an orb (no spell points, no concentration)
At the end of round 8, the Orb Transformation effect ends.



Scenario 2 - Delayed Transformation:

Round 1 Move Action: Breadth of Form to get Orb Transformation
Round 4 Move Action: Transform into an orb (no spell points, no concentration)
At the end of round 10, Breadth of Form ends. Does the Orb Transformation persist until round 12?



Scenario 3 - Vastly extended transformation:

Round 1 Move Action: Breadth of Form to get Orb Transformation
Round 1 Move Action: Transform into an orb spending 2 spell points on Permanent Transformation
At the end of round 10, Breadth of Form ends. Does the Orb Transformation persist forever?

[stack]

Really that question is generally applicable to any temporary talents known, such as with the spiritualism hedgewitch tradition, a staff that can be wielded and disarmed, dropped, or stowed, etc. I believe that once it is cast, the effect persists for its normal duration regardless of if you lose the ability to cast it again or the knowledge of the effect. I believe that more general question has been answered here previously, but I'm on my phone so am not going to search. If I am wrong, the general answer applies to the protean also.

Edit - and by here, I mean in the Ask Me Anythig thread. I'll add a link later.

[RedMop]

I think you mean this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?415365-The-Creator-of-Spheres-of-Power-Here-Ask-Me-Anything&p=20323342&highlight=spiritualism#post20323342):


Spiritualism Hedgewitch - do spell effects you create using talents you only know temporarily persist for their full duration or end when you lose the talent? I presume they run for full duration, but thought it worth mentioning. Summoned creature's with non-instantaneous effects have the effects end, but that is due to a specific clause stating it.

You brought it up, but I don't feel that it was ever answered.

[stack]

I think you mean this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?415365-The-Creator-of-Spheres-of-Power-Here-Ask-Me-Anything&p=20323342&highlight=spiritualism#post20323342):



You brought it up, but I don't feel that it was ever answered.
The answer is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20376709&postcount=784), from the next page.
"Technically RAW they would persist until their duration is over."

[RedMop]

The answer is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20376709&postcount=784), from the next page.
"Technically RAW they would persist until their duration is over."

Missed that one. Curse my impatience.

That's perfect. Thanks.

[legomaster00156]

Since we now have protean-descended planetouched called ganzi, I suggest making a special racial trait for them like you did aasimar and tieflings in this document, especially since you now have chaos-based outsider form talents.

[stack]

Since we now have protean-descended planetouched called ganzi, I suggest making a special racial trait for them like you did aasimar and tieflings in this document, especially since you now have chaos-based outsider form talents.

I was not aware of those. Would have done it if I was. Too late now, release is just around the corner.

[Mehangel]

The Shapeshifter's Handbook (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/196160/The-Shapeshifters-Handbook) was just released on PDF yesterday.

[Keante]

Can the graft weapon and shape weapon bestial traits be used multiple times to have multiple persistent weapons in place of limbs? It may not be a smart idea to lose both of your hands to swords such that you'll no longer have fingers for manipulating things, but it could still be cool.

Follow up question: I know this wouldn't work with the Mind Limb feat by itself ("Your telekinetic limb cannot effectively wield weapons"), but it's not so cut and dry with the Thousand Unseen Hands of a Hekatonkheires. Do you think graft weapon and shape weapon can be applied to these limbs, replacing the tentacle attacks with weapon attacks?

I suppose a Hekatonkheires can just wield weapons with these limbs anyway by level 6--but this could be a way to achieve a similar effect if you were multiclassing and hadn't reached level 6 as a Hekatonkheires.

EDIT: *facepalm* Just noticed this in the text for shape weapon: "a limb capable of wielding a weapon". So no shortcutting the level 6 ability of the Hekatonkheires. The question about grafting/shaping weapons on the Hekatonkheires' mind limbs at all still stands, though.

[stack]

Never considered that combo, but from the wording I suppose you could shape or graft a mind limb once you hit Hekatonkheires level 6. Works for multiweapon fighting builds I suppose, though doubt it is any better for that than just stacking up extra arms from alteration.

Also, such questions can also go in the ask me anything thread, which is more active than this old playtest thread.