Dearth of creatures above CR 8 and writing encounters

[TentacleSurpris]

I am DMing a party which is almost level 9 and I'm finding that the game wasn't planned by the designers to do much at this level.

The problem with 5th edition at this level is that PCs are getting into the territory where there are barely any monsters to fight in the Monster Manual. Using groups of lower level creatures that the characters have already fought before is one solution, but more of the same doesn't keep it fresh and exciting. At CR 8 there are still a lot of creatures, but equal-CR-to-level challenges usually die pretty quickly. From CR 8 on up, there are giants and demons. At 11 you get the genies. There are dragons along the way. And that's about it. There aren't even any undead between CR 6 and 13 when you get the Vampire and CR 17 you get the Death Knight. CR 12 has a total of 3 creatures.

There are a few exceptions, but its' really hard to write an adventure for them. For example, CR 9 has the Treant. Treants are found in forests. So to fight a Treant I have to write a forest adventure. But there are no other forest-type creatures at anywhere near that CR. So even though there's the treant, I can't really write it into an adventure full of demons and frost giants and have it make sense.

At CR 13 and above, encounters basically become a conveyor belt of demons and dragons.

Yes I've ordered Kobold Press's book, but a 3rd party book coming out in August doesn't solve the problem I'm having for tomorrow's session and for the last 3 months.

[MaxWilson]

Two remarks:

You could use monsters from Fifth Edition Foes. I guarantee you that your players have not fought those monsters before.

You could also use larger groups of monsters. You discuss this briefly when you say they could fight larger groups of monsters that "they've already fought before", but the thing is, I'm pretty sure your players haven't fought all the monsters in the book. The game works best IMO when the PCs are outnumbered frequently. How about two cloakers and a bunch of intellect devourers? That would be challenging and difficult. A platoon of thirty goblins playing hit-and-run with Nimble Escape? Three Fire Elementals? Three Stygian Skeletons? (Whoops, those are from Fifth Edition Foes.) Four Drow Elite Warriors leading twelve more regular drow?

From a combat challenge perspective it is easy peasy in 5E to construct interesting encounters. Demons and dragons can be fun too, and you should use them also, but there's nothing quite as much fun for an evil DM as TPKing a 9th level party with a small group of CR 1/4 creatures right out of the MM. (I'm not saying you should do that often--I usually don't play the monsters all that smart--but that one time, well, what can I say? Drow are supposed to be smart, and so they were. And it was fun, for me at least. :))

Edit: oh, I just realized. Are you under the impression that Nth level adventurers should always be fighting CR N foes? That's not how 5E works. Play around with http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder, have it generate some random encounters for you to get the idea.

For example, for 4 11th level PCs, I hit 'Random Encounter' and get a Medium encounter: 2 killer whales (CR 3) and a Mezzoloth (CR 5). Well, I could invent some reason for a Mezzoloth to be swimming around in an ocean with treasure, but right now I don't feel like an aquatic adventure so I'm going to swap that for two Mezzoloths (CR 5) and two Giant Constrictor Snakes (CR 2). That's a Medium encounter, same as a CR 10 Death Slaad would be. My experience with 5E is that Medium encounters are far too easy to be challenging by default, but Mezzoloths are both intelligent and spellcasters so I can use tactics to bump up the challenge level a bit. For example, I can drop a Cloudkill on the PCs. The Mezzoloths and the snakes all have blindsight, so within the cloud they're all effectively invisible to the PCs and vice versa, so they will be very tough. (Unlike the Mezzoloths, the snakes aren't immune to poison, but it's still worth it.) A PC who tries to get out of the Cloudkill will take an opportunity attack at +6 with advantage from one or both snakes, and on a hit will be restrained and unable to move (better than Sentinel). The Mezzoloths have a couple of Dispel Magics in reserve to counter PC spells (Shield, Haste, whatever).

The PCs will have to make decisions, and if they make the wrong decisions something bad could happen, and that's all you can ask for from an encounter in D&D. If the PCs make the right decisions they can trivialize this whole encounter, but that's the nature of games: it's possible to be good at them. Using a single CR 13 creature instead of multiple CR 5s and CR 2s wouldn't change that basic dynamic.

[LordFluffy]

I am DMing a party which is almost level 9 and I'm finding that the game wasn't planned by the designers to do much at this level.

The problem with 5th edition at this level is that PCs are getting into the territory where there are barely any monsters to fight in the Monster Manual. Using groups of lower level creatures that the characters have already fought before is one solution, but more of the same doesn't keep it fresh and exciting. At CR 8 there are still a lot of creatures, but equal-CR-to-level challenges usually die pretty quickly. From CR 8 on up, there are giants and demons. At 11 you get the genies. There are dragons along the way. And that's about it. There aren't even any undead between CR 6 and 13 when you get the Vampire and CR 17 you get the Death Knight. CR 12 has a total of 3 creatures.

There are a few exceptions, but its' really hard to write an adventure for them. For example, CR 9 has the Treant. Treants are found in forests. So to fight a Treant I have to write a forest adventure. But there are no other forest-type creatures at anywhere near that CR. So even though there's the treant, I can't really write it into an adventure full of demons and frost giants and have it make sense.

At CR 13 and above, encounters basically become a conveyor belt of demons and dragons.

Yes I've ordered Kobold Press's book, but a 3rd party book coming out in August doesn't solve the problem I'm having for tomorrow's session and for the last 3 months.
There was a reddit called Monster a Day that had a few big bads. There's the homebrew section in the DMG. Reskinning is also an option, though I realize it's not exactly the same.

[Laereth]

I am DMing a party which is almost level 9 and I'm finding that the game wasn't planned by the designers to do much at this level.

The problem with 5th edition at this level is that PCs are getting into the territory where there are barely any monsters to fight in the Monster Manual. Using groups of lower level creatures that the characters have already fought before is one solution, but more of the same doesn't keep it fresh and exciting. At CR 8 there are still a lot of creatures, but equal-CR-to-level challenges usually die pretty quickly. From CR 8 on up, there are giants and demons. At 11 you get the genies. There are dragons along the way. And that's about it. There aren't even any undead between CR 6 and 13 when you get the Vampire and CR 17 you get the Death Knight. CR 12 has a total of 3 creatures.

There are a few exceptions, but its' really hard to write an adventure for them. For example, CR 9 has the Treant. Treants are found in forests. So to fight a Treant I have to write a forest adventure. But there are no other forest-type creatures at anywhere near that CR. So even though there's the treant, I can't really write it into an adventure full of demons and frost giants and have it make sense.

At CR 13 and above, encounters basically become a conveyor belt of demons and dragons.

Yes I've ordered Kobold Press's book, but a 3rd party book coming out in August doesn't solve the problem I'm having for tomorrow's session and for the last 3 months.

Why not an adventure featuring the demonic corruption of a once enchanted forest ? Demons and Trees ! http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Tanglebriar (setting idea) complete with boss http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Treerazer

This reading might also help to approach encounter design. It was written with 3e in mind, but the advice might be helpful to you with 5e. http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/2050/roleplaying-games/revisiting-encounter-design

Hope it helps !

[MrFahrenheit]

Bounded accuracy makes up for a lot of what your first concern is, however it also leads to your second concern in the lack of variety. Around when my party hit 8 is when I began noticing this too.

As I've said before, I'd love to see an MM2 to address this. Not because I want gem dragons and beholderkin, but to offer something else to fight at higher levels that isn't meant to be a boss monster.

I also dole out quest XP quite liberally to cover for the dearth of monster variety.

[Shining Wrath]

There's ways to increase the CR of an encounter other than throwing more monsters. You, as DM, can easily increase the effective CR of a monster.

Give the monster spell casting (as is suggested for dragons)
Give a monster that usually doesn't have them lair or legendary actions
Give a monster that does have lair or legendary actions, better ones
Give the monster advantageous terrain. Consider the legendary Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/) as an example of turning a group of puny monsters into terrors (admittedly, AD&D example)
Give the monster traps as an alternative to lair or legendary actions. A mummy lord gets nastier if there are pits covered with illusions scattered about the room, dropping the melee fighters into scarab beetles. The wizard flying above the lava will be upset about the anti-magic field.

[X3r4ph]

The best part about being a DM is you have full control over everything. Whatever you dream up you can create. If you have the creativity to think up an adventure with demons and frost giants, what is there to stop you from designing som new bad ass monster yourself?

If this is the first time you create you own monster. Keep som abilities secret. Use them if the battle is too easy. Dont use them if the fight is too hard. Fudge the numbers a bit to make sure the players find it difficult, but not too easy or too hard.

Whatever you come up with, and however hard it is, you players dont need to know the CR. You can decide this after they have fought the monster. Reward them depending on how challenging the fight was.

If all fails, reskin. Reskinning the treant is hella easy. It is basically a giant. But this particular version is glazed over with rock hard frost giving it damage resistance. This is why it is vulnerable to fire as well. If this giant stands still he is absolutely indistinguishable from a stalagmite. It can also animate ice.

[Xetheral]

Use NPCs with class levels. Whether you follow the CR rules or just wing it, you can creat foes of just about any level of challenge you desire.

[Regitnui]

Well, the monster is only half the encounter. Tucker's Kobolds are a terror simply because they're fighting smart in a terrain perfectly suited to them. Drop the players into a river with a number of Quipper Swarms and suddenly the little fish aren't going to be much of a joke. A beholder over a lake of lava is far worse than a beholder in a room.

What could back up a treant encounter? A Bulette nursery; four or five adult bulettes, a number of young (half-size, half-HP), and every other bulette (with a unicorn who fears for the balance of the forest) in the area arriving every turn. The local young green dragon decides to 'play' with the adventurers, knocking trees onto them and attacking from the shadows. Displacer beasts chase a blink dog right across the party's path, when the dog blinks behind an elven PC. The beasts orient on that PC, using the canopy to dodge the others and drop onto the dog and its new protector.

A lot of the non-beast creatures in the MM have intelligence equal to or greater than the PCs. They're going to fight smart, and they know the terrain much better than the party. After all, they live there.

[MaxWilson]

Use NPCs with class levels. Whether you follow the CR rules or just wing it, you can creat foes of just about any level of challenge you desire.

A good rule of thumb is to treat an NPC of level X as being of either CR (X-2) (if you just use them straightforwardly in three-round combats) or CR X (if you play more Combat As War style so that things like scrying, pre-buffed spells and Cunning Action come into play). E.g. when I did the numbers for a 20th level Barbarian (GWM+PM) he clocked in as CR 19.

[Shining Wrath]

Use NPCs with class levels. Whether you follow the CR rules or just wing it, you can creat foes of just about any level of challenge you desire.

Yes to this - there is no reason an orc could not become a warlock, or a troll learn to be a druid - imagine a creature that is regenerating hit points for the troll form while in beast form, so every time it reverts it is at full hit points.

To the OP, then, you must take the creatures in the MM and create better ones based on them; or, take the bog-standard monster and be creative about the environment you place them in.

[RickAllison]

More advice: rip off other material. I recently ran a dungeon that featured a slew of lower-CR creatures that were upgraded to fit the Heartless enemies of Kingdom Hearts. Gave Shadows the ability to become invulnerable and meld into the ground, gave Will o' Wisps invulnerability while invisible but restricted the invisibility to one round that ended in a Dex save attack, and modified Gladiators to have 1/Day Cone of Cold and Fireball and higher AC from attacks at the front using a demonic shield.