[3.5, core only] Building a Gish: STR or DEX?

[KaytoShields]

I'm building a Sorcadin, and I'm perfectly happy with this chassis. But for roleplaying reasons this character wants to contribute to melee combat as much as he can, according to his Paladin training. At least not to suck at low levels as a fighter.

So, Gish as Eldritch Knight seems viable.

But then I hit a problem. Actually, two problems, but one is a result of another. His highest stat obviously goes for Charisma, but second highest? It better be STR to hit things, or DEX to help in survivablity and shooting rays.

If I go STR route, I get sweet synergy with lance on first levels and can actually kill things. But then I get low AC at low levels and abysmal at mid-high levels. Especially touch AC. Essentially making this character a glass cannon, able to hit hard in melee one or two times per battle, but not able to take hits. And scales awfully; his 6x3 additional damage quickly pales in comparison to Sorcerer offensive options.

DEX route. Well, for full-spellcaster that would be a choice, but if I take a EK prestige and not hit things in melee it's strange... At low levels melee damage would be close to zero. But then character at last can hope to hit "average" or "good" AC zone, and able to survive without buffing first. The only source of melee damage then would be Power Attack at mid-levels, and it's like 1.5 times lower overall. And lower to-hits.

Second problem is: I cannot understand how to play Gish. I see it as caster job early on, and opportunistic strikes mid-battle, for charger STR build. But for DEX build... What to use BAB for? Ray spells? What to do at low levels? Crossbows damage nothing...

Or should I just forget about Gish and go full Sorcadin route, Pal 2-Sorc 18? Losing opportunity to utilize 2 Pal levels to its fullest?

[Honest Tiefling]

Have you perhaps considered the Abjuration Champion prestige class? It improves protection spells, including ones that grant Shield AC. It's pretty nice!

I shall leave you in the hands of my betters. Here's a Gish oriented handbook. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook) The post titled 'Types of Gishes' addresses your role problems. Honestly, I think you need to decide if you want to be a switch-hitter, in that you use your weapon against weaker enemies and retreat to use spells against more powerful ones or as the need arises, or as a more durable mage who occasionally hits things. I think the former is your desired goal.

[Droopy McCool]

To give my 2cp with regard to the title question, just go with Strength and forget AC. A few points of Dexterity are trivial at higher levels, because you should have been looking for ways to boost miss chance by then. Take spells like Blur or Displacement and buy items; like a Minor Cloak of Displacement (DMG).

McCool

[Aegis013]

Have you perhaps considered the Abjuration Champion prestige class? It improves protection spells, including ones that grant Shield AC. It's pretty nice!

The title says Core Only, I'm not sure Complete Mage qualifies.

I'd say go strength Strength. You can always use Extended (if you can afford it, feat wise) Cat's Grace or whatever to shore up your dex, but dealing out appropriate damage without strength in core is a poor proposition. At that point you might as well just be a blaster-sorcerer rather than a melee.

As far as AC, instead, rely on defenses like Blur and Mirror Image, these will protect you pretty well without the Dex investment.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Focus on Strength after Charisma, and don't neglect your Constitution either. You don't want to have to spend a feat on Weapon Finesse if you can avoid it. Use that bonus Fighter feat from the first level of Eldritch Knight to grab Power Attack. Get Extend Spell and maybe even Eschew Materials and Still Spell since it's core only. You don't want to try casting a spell only for your DM to tell you that you have no free hands since you're fighting with a two-hander. Extended Mage Armor and Enlarge Person will be your bread and butter for a good portion of your career. I suggest using a reach weapon too.

[illyahr]

I would recommend Dex-based. Use light weapons and take Weapon Finesse to contribute to combat. Some of the most potent spells are Touch and Ranged Touch. Softening the targets up with enervation will prevent them from doing too much damage and make it harder to hit you. Have a weapon of Spell Storing and keep vampiric touch or the like in there for fun effects on your melee. Running a lot of buff spells will make up for any stat penalties.

If you ever decide to go outside core, there are plenty of ways to build up both offense and defense with little effort.

[Honest Tiefling]

The title says Core Only, I'm not sure Complete Mage qualifies.

I'd say go strength Strength. You can always use Extended (if you can afford it, feat wise) Cat's Grace or whatever to shore up your dex, but dealing out appropriate damage without strength in core is a poor proposition. At that point you might as well just be a blaster-sorcerer rather than a melee.

As far as AC, instead, rely on defenses like Blur and Mirror Image, these will protect you pretty well without the Dex investment.

Well, I feel like an idiot now. But I'll leave that there in case the DM changes their mind.

[Flickerdart]

How to play a gish all depends on what order you take your levels in. There's nothing wrong with Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 when you want to gish! BAB of 11 just means you have 3 attacks, but then so does the rogue. I recommend taking paladin first, and beating people's faces in real good. You'll forever be way behind in spells, so don't worry about them too much. Use them to buff your AC and damage. Your CHA does not need to be too high because you don't care about DCs, so you can give your STR and CON some extra points.

The choice of prestige class is a difficult one, and mostly depends on how long your campaign will be. If you're ending at the mid-levels, then prestiging isn't such a bad idea, though I recommend against eldritch knight. Instead, look into two levels of dragon disciple - it's super easy to get into, and you get badass claws and bite!

[Esprit15]

Unfortunately, Dragon Disciple gives bonus spells but no actual bonuses to caster level or spells known, so you're stuck with your low level things for however long you stick with it.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Unfortunately, Dragon Disciple gives bonus spells but no actual bonuses to caster level or spells known, so you're stuck with your low level things for however long you stick with it.

I'm inferring from his post that he's recommending Pal 2 / Sorc 16 / DD 2, which wouldn't be half bad in a core only game. You don't care about iterative attacks since you're using natural attacks so, at 20th level, 11 BAB isn't all that bad and you have 8th level spells to back it up.

[Snowbluff]

I give my vote for Str.

[Sword-Geass]

STR, even with weapon finesse, hiting something is no good if the hit is only doing d6 damage. Also, you can use a two hander and cast spells, always remember that taking a hand of your weapon is a free action. You take the hand off, cast, and put it in the weapon again.

Also, AC needs a heavy investment to keep being useful, which makes the DEX route even less apeiling, AC is all or nothing, and nothing is cheaper, and you won't be defenseless thanks to miss chance.

[Iku Rex]

The correct answer is Con.

After that, you probably want Str 14 if you plan on getting Power Attack at some point, and/or Dex 14 if you're getting Combat Reflexes (to make it worthwhile). If you intend to (ab)use polymorph, Dex and Str will become much less important at higher levels.

[Willie the Duck]

for roleplaying reasons this character wants to contribute to melee combat as much as he can, according to his Paladin training.


I cannot understand how to play Gish. I see it as caster job early on, and opportunistic strikes mid-battle, for charger STR build. But for DEX build... What to use BAB for? Ray spells? What to do at low levels? Crossbows damage nothing...

This is the problem. Playing a gish is something you do because you want to. It is not an optimized decision. That said, if you want to do something that a gish doesn't do well, it will be doubly challenging. What a gish doesn't do well is frontline as a melee combatant. This is especially Core-only, where you don't have access to Duskblades (to up damage output) or Abjurant Champions (who make unarmored fighting significantly more survivable).

You could just strap on plate mail and reserve your spellcasting for out-of-combat I suppose. That would make you similar to a slightly lower bab, lower hp fighting type. Otherwise, you are a low AC as well.

Most people who plat gishes do so as skirmishers (similar to rogues, but with spellcasting buffs instead of sneak attack). Others as ranged combatants. Others (especially core), simply as a spellcaster who is a couple of levels behind, but has some better survivability (and either paladin saves or fighter feats).

If you're dead set on doing this, though, I'd suggest the Dex over Str. A dead gish doesn't solve any of these problems. Best of luck.

[Andezzar]

STR, even with weapon finesse, hiting something is no good if the hit is only doing d6 damage. Also, you can use a two hander and cast spells, always remember that taking a hand of your weapon is a free action. You take the hand off, cast, and put it in the weapon again.Actually the rules never say that putting the hand back is a free action, so check with your DM.

[Troacctid]

If you want to deal damage in melee, you have to focus on Strength. That's pretty much just a fact of this edition. If you focus on Dexterity, you'll have better defenses, sure, but you'll also have no reason to ever pick up a sword, because it won't deal any damage even when you hit. Okay, fine, whatever, 1d8+2 damage, but that stopped being a level-appropriate damage output at around level 2.

The only arcane gish that can focus on DEX is an Arcane Trickster, because their damage output doesn't depend on STR. Otherwise, you won't function in melee at all unless you're either maxing your STR or polymorphing so that you don't have to.

[Willie the Duck]

Actually the rules never say that putting the hand back is a free action, so check with your DM.

But when you do, point out how odd ruling against it will be for every staff-wielding wizard you've ever played.