Are riddles a good idea?

[TheCrowing1432]

So, my party made their way through my winter wolf encounter today that I had posted up here two weeks ago and were quite pleased with it.

Being the kind of DM who likes interesting encounters I was thinking of making the next one different.

My plan is to have a bridge spanning across a great river, my party doesnt have access to fly just yet and none of them are specked for swimming, so their way across is a toll road, ran by a guardian naga, which is CR10, which is quite a challenge for the four level 6's, the rangers level 4 goliath barbarian cohort, and the druids ape animal companion.

But the challenge will not to be to fight it, but to bypass it. My idea is for the Naga to give them four options.

1. Fight
2. Pay the toll (200 gp each, about 1k total, the party can definitely afford it)
3. Answer the riddles
4. Flee.


If they end up fighting it, I am confident they could overwhelm the naga, though I dont know with how many losses.

I really want to push the riddle thing, and I was going to use some simple logic riddles. But is this a good idea? Do riddles ever really work out in table top games?

If none of the above work, I do have plans for an underground tunnel that leads to their destination (A dwarf kingdom) across the river.

If they try to cross the river they'll get attacked by sauaghen.

[DrMotives]

I'm not a big fan of the sphinx-like ask riddles & pass. I like something more like a Bilbo & Gollum riddle contest, or break the cliché and have the naga accept being impressed by their stories as payment. Of course, the naga is aware they might lie, but with a good enough bluff check /entertainment value, it might not care so much.

[Crake]

So, my party made their way through my winter wolf encounter today that I had posted up here two weeks ago and were quite pleased with it.

Being the kind of DM who likes interesting encounters I was thinking of making the next one different.

My plan is to have a bridge spanning across a great river, my party doesnt have access to fly just yet and none of them are specked for swimming, so their way across is a toll road, ran by a guardian naga, which is CR10, which is quite a challenge for the four level 6's, the rangers level 4 goliath barbarian cohort, and the druids ape animal companion.

But the challenge will not to be to fight it, but to bypass it. My idea is for the Naga to give them four options.

1. Fight
2. Pay the toll (200 gp each, about 1k total, the party can definitely afford it)
3. Answer the riddles
4. Flee.


If they end up fighting it, I am confident they could overwhelm the naga, though I dont know with how many losses.

I really want to push the riddle thing, and I was going to use some simple logic riddles. But is this a good idea? Do riddles ever really work out in table top games?

If none of the above work, I do have plans for an underground tunnel that leads to their destination (A dwarf kingdom) across the river.

If they try to cross the river they'll get attacked by sauaghen.

Hey, as long as they have the option to NOT go with the riddles if they get bored/can't figure them out, I say go for it. The main issue with riddles at tables I've found is they either figure them out immediately, or don't figure them out at all and just get stumped, but since they have other options, if they get stumped they can just pick one of the other 3.

[Flickerdart]

Riddles are the best way to say "hey, remember this game where we pretend to be magic elves? Let's not play that game anymore." Cue players arguing about whether their WIS 8 fighter should be allowed to solve it, or if their INT 25 archmage should get some hints.

"Bypass the naga" is a fine puzzle in and of itself. They can solve it by:

Fighting the naga
Paying the toll
Hiding/turning invisible/using illusions/enchantments and sneaking by
Flying overhead while pointing and laughing
Distracting the naga by pulling in a dragon/ogre/dragon ogre from a nearby cave
Polymorphing into bolts and shooting themselves across the river with a ballista
Squeezing into a bag of holding so only one person crosses and pays just one toll
Pickpocketing the naga and paying it with its own money
Swimming across the river (and doing all of these with the sahuagin instead)


Without the puzzle, you are presenting a binary choice (pay or leave) and the PCs, being used to "take the third option" type scenarios, will go "haha screw that, fetch me my wand of shenanigans." With the puzzle, the puzzle becomes the third choice, and players are not used to hunting for a fourth.

[TheCrowing1432]

Riddles are the best way to say "hey, remember this game where we pretend to be magic elves? Let's not play that game anymore." Cue players arguing about whether their WIS 8 fighter should be allowed to solve it, or if their INT 25 archmage should get some hints.

"Bypass the naga" is a fine puzzle in and of itself. They can solve it by:

Fighting the naga
Paying the toll
Hiding/turning invisible/using illusions/enchantments and sneaking by
Flying overhead while pointing and laughing
Distracting the naga by pulling in a dragon/ogre/dragon ogre from a nearby cave
Polymorphing into bolts and shooting themselves across the river with a ballista
Squeezing into a bag of holding so only one person crosses and pays just one toll
Pickpocketing the naga and paying it with its own money
Swimming across the river (and doing all of these with the sahuagin instead)


Without the puzzle, you are presenting a binary choice (pay or leave) and the PCs, being used to "take the third option" type scenarios, will go "haha screw that, fetch me my wand of shenanigans." With the puzzle, the puzzle becomes the third choice, and players are not used to hunting for a fourth.

So you're thinking I just have the Naga be there and ask for a toll and thats it? No Riddles?

[Shpadoinkle]

So you're thinking I just have the Naga be there and ask for a toll and thats it? No Riddles?

Personally I think so. Flickerdart pretty much explained my problem with in-game riddles. I know they're an old tradition in RPGs, but personally I think they're a stupid tradition. Asking the players to solve a riddle that has been presented to the PCs is in my mind akin to the DM telling a player who wants their character to build a catapult "You, the player, not the character, have to show me how a catapult works and how you're constructing it. I know your character has 17 ranks in Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering, but if you, the player, can't do it, then neither can your character."

[Efrate]

If you use riddles, same as if you use a coded message or a complex puzzle, you need to consider a few things. One is this a dynamic your players like? One of my groups has at least 2 members who absolutely detest such, and one who loves it. I try not to use it or to do it sparingly. Its using OOC knowledge IC for one which isn't good, and always have other options.

You run the risk of part of the party just milling around doing nothing and the adventure grinding to a halt. So you need to find ways to get the other pcs involved. Knowledge or bardic lore checks reveal some hints, or could completely bypass it. A 22 int wizard should have an immense knowledge of logical and theoretical problems and easily be able to solve them. That is part of having a high int. Have a set of scaling DCs which give hints, up to an possibly including DC XX means they overcome obstacle. Divination spells also should be able to at least point you in the right direction. And there is always your BSF types smashing by said obstacle. Try to never have one solution, especially if that one is a lone "correct answer".

Optionally, having totally extraneous objectives that use riddles or such is fine if you think the players might like it. They find a secret room with a cryptic riddle, if they get it, they get some bonus treasure. If not it doesn't impede there primary quest. This also allows the PCs to just say screw we need to get moving on to rescue the princess or whatever, but allows them to spend as much time as they like on it. If they decline it, have the answer appear somewhere later in the adventure, and use that for some closure. My pcs hate leaving a single door or avenue unexplored, and it gnaws at them terribly when they get stymied, so I try to provide other solutions later to tie up the loose end. Just make sure at that point they either cannot go back to get it, or if they do someone beat them to it or something. Don't just hand all the answers to it later and still give them all the rewards.

[Gildedragon]

Write up a riddle that's somewhat ambiguous and then write up clues they can get at with intelligence checks.

[Gallowglass]

At that point, the riddle is just another combat.

"A wild riddle appears!"

"Roll an intelligence check to attack the riddle!"

"I have knowledge skills, can I use them like a BAB?"

"Sure!"

"I rolled 24!"

"The riddle takes 17 solve damage. You need to do 78 more to solve the riddle!"

"Great, I'll hold off the Naga for a few rounds, you guys keep attacking that riddle!"

OP> You are not going to find very many people supporting riddles or any out-of-character challenge like a riddle on this board. You will run into a lot of people with Flickerdart's opinion, and that's probably a fair representation of the reality of your random gaming group. "I signed up to be a magical elf. I've gone so far as to find a game that lets me roll to talk to people rather than have to say the words myself. Just let me roll my dice and get on with it."

That being said, it really DOES depend on your players. I have played games where the GM has inserted a riddle or other out of character challenge (like interpreting a prophecy or one of those assemble these scraps of paper to rebuild the map physical challenges) where the players have had a LOT of fun. But I think the older and more experienced the player, the less fun they get out of OOC games like that and start viewing them as just interrupting the game they want to play.

Also, it varies depending on how you present the OOC challenge. You present a Naga on a bridge who wants you to solve a riddle to pass you are going to get more groaning. But if you present a challenge in the form of the PCs finding a bunch of random gems scattered through a forest, then at the end of the forest a stone pedestal with empty slots that would fit the gems and the PCs have to use context clues from where they found the gems to know where to slot them, that's an OOC challenge that the players are solving rather than their characters (the exact same thing as a riddle) but you'll get a lot less groaning because it feels more entwined with the narrative. Less jarring.

[Flickerdart]

At that point, the riddle is just another combat.

"A wild riddle appears!"

"Roll an intelligence check to attack the riddle!"

"I have knowledge skills, can I use them like a BAB?"

"Sure!"

"I rolled 24!"

"The riddle takes 17 solve damage. You need to do 78 more to solve the riddle!"

"Great, I'll hold off the Naga for a few rounds, you guys keep attacking that riddle!"

If only 3.5 had put this much detail into skill challenges. :smallamused:

[Faily]

I personally like riddles and have enjoyed both riddles and puzzles when they show up in the games. The Shackled City campaign had one riddle asked at a party, and later a color-coded puzzle, iirc. My group enjoyed both of them. Especially since the party got split up at the color-coded puzzle and it was fun to see how the two groups worked on solving the puzzle.

Of course, it may not fit for all groups, but you know your playgroup better than any of us most likely to determine if it is something they would like. If you haven't seen them interact with a puzzle before, it doesn't hurt to try once to see how it goes.

[nedz]

I think riddles are fine - on occasion - I wouldn't use them too often. Also they should reflect some aspect of the setting, i.e. they should be embedded in the mindset of the culture you are trying to depict so that they serve to help paint a picture - which means that they shouldn't be too hard.

Riddles as puzzles to be solved before progressing are an old school style of play which, whilst not wrong, are not role-playing.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think the problem with this set up is that it is too artificial. For instance, what is that bridge made of? Because if it is easily destroyed, why not dump the naga into the water? If the party know there are sahuagin in there, what is preventing the party from trying to get the two to fight? Or just charging through the sahuagin instead? Or trying to find another way across, such as another bridge or area that can be forded? I mean, if the Dwarven Kingdom is completely cut off because one stupid Naga decided to be there, then they're probably screwed anyway. What benefit does the Naga get from the riddles?

I think riddles have a place, but they need to make some sort of sense. For instance, in a social situation, it's a way to show off. An intelligent guardian of knowledge might use it as a test as they only value intelligence, and need to know if the party is worthy to allow into their magical library. The ol' tomb with a puzzle is usually so the cultists can just tell each other the answer and get into the super secret cult headquarters without everyone trying to crash the party and drink the kool aid before they can.

[Segev]

I suggest making the riddles things to which the Naga does not know the answer. Perhaps they're insoluble, and she's just stringing victims along in a sick game, or maybe she really wants the answer, and has a way to test the answer(s) (possibly by making the PCs do it for her, if getting it wrong hurts the one trying to test an answer). If they solve the riddle(s), she gets to achieve a goal of hers, perhaps becoming a dangerous recurring foe (though it might take her time, so she can't thwart them now and is too busy pursuing her apotheosis once she gets the right answers).

[Flickerdart]

Perhaps they're insoluble
I should hope they're insoluble - the naga is perilously close to water, after all. :smallamused:

[Segev]

I should hope they're insoluble - the naga is perilously close to water, after all. :smallamused:

Well, obviously. If they were soluble, she could solve them in the water.

[Honest Tiefling]

If they solve the riddle(s), she gets to achieve a goal of hers, perhaps becoming a dangerous recurring foe (though it might take her time, so she can't thwart them now and is too busy pursuing her apotheosis once she gets the right answers).

So...She wants to solve a riddle. To do so she camps out on a bridge near some sahuagin, and tries her answers on random murderhobos who might have a chance to kill her. To boot, there is a tunnel around the bridge. This is assuming that if the murderhobos do get it right, they don't get tipped off to the riddle's importance or somehow get closer to achieving the goal she wants.

If I was going to solve a riddle, I would not try to test it on psychos with a short attention span who are also known for having questionable levels of literacy. I hear most librarians aren't known for their skill in murdering the **** out of everything they encounter...

[Gallowglass]

So...She wants to solve a riddle. To do so she camps out on a bridge near some sahuagin, and tries her answers on random murderhobos who might have a chance to kill her. To boot, there is a tunnel around the bridge. This is assuming that if the murderhobos do get it right, they don't get tipped off to the riddle's importance or somehow get closer to achieving the goal she wants.

If I was going to solve a riddle, I would not try to test it on psychos with a short attention span who are also known for having questionable levels of literacy. I hear most librarians aren't known for their skill in murdering the **** out of everything they encounter...


Her friend from the monster-support group, Consuela the gynosphinx, told her that random murderhobos are the best at solving riddles.

Her friend from her zumba class, Dungwattle the troll, told her that bridge camping was the best way to find murderhobos.

keep up.

[Ashtagon]

Rather than have the naga say "solve my puzzle", have it say "tell me a good story of your exploits. Only the brave may pass"

They can then


Demonstrate their cowardice by fleeing.
Demonstrate their bravery by fighting.
Demonstrate their bravery by recounting a previous adventure, in-character recapping the last big quest. Give a pass to any half-decent story here.
As above, but replace the live storytelling with a Perform (oratory) skill check (or bardic knowledge I suppose if push comes to shove). Make it DC $level-appropriate.

[dascarletm]

So...She wants to solve a riddle. To do so she camps out on a bridge near some sahuagin, and tries her answers on random murderhobos who might have a chance to kill her. To boot, there is a tunnel around the bridge. This is assuming that if the murderhobos do get it right, they don't get tipped off to the riddle's importance or somehow get closer to achieving the goal she wants.

If I was going to solve a riddle, I would not try to test it on psychos with a short attention span who are also known for having questionable levels of literacy. I hear most librarians aren't known for their skill in murdering the **** out of everything they encounter...

Typical Naga logic amirite?

Oh, also riddles right.

Riddles are great, all the time. I usually like them better when they span the course of the campaign and are intertwined within the plot, only to be revealed in the "Big Climactic Ending :elan:" but that works too.
If the players disagree with some such "wanting to roll" nonsense call them something scathing and/or biting. Perhaps ROLLplayers?

[Gallowglass]

If the players disagree with some such "wanting to roll" nonsense call them something scathing and/or biting. Perhaps ROLLplayers?


Oh yeah? I rolled a 23 charisma check to insult you back. So there. According to the chart, that's a sick burn!

[dascarletm]

Oh yeah? I rolled a 23 charisma check to insult you back. So there. According to the chart, that's a sick burn!

pshhh! I have the "I'm Rubber, You're Glue" feat so you take the burn damage instead! :smalltongue:

[Segev]

So...She wants to solve a riddle. To do so she camps out on a bridge near some sahuagin, and tries her answers on random murderhobos who might have a chance to kill her. To boot, there is a tunnel around the bridge. This is assuming that if the murderhobos do get it right, they don't get tipped off to the riddle's importance or somehow get closer to achieving the goal she wants.

If I was going to solve a riddle, I would not try to test it on psychos with a short attention span who are also known for having questionable levels of literacy. I hear most librarians aren't known for their skill in murdering the **** out of everything they encounter...

Valid points. But honestly, riddles are ALWAYS contrived. Still, were I to contrive it further, perhaps the riddles are, themselves, the means to free her from a binding requiring her to guard that bridge. If she can answer them (whether directly, or by applying the answers in some fashion), she can free herself. Otherwise, she looks for any excuse to eat passers-by.

[Flickerdart]

Valid points. But honestly, riddles are ALWAYS contrived. Still, were I to contrive it further, perhaps the riddles are, themselves, the means to free her from a binding requiring her to guard that bridge. If she can answer them (whether directly, or by applying the answers in some fashion), she can free herself. Otherwise, she looks for any excuse to eat passers-by.

Interesting idea. There's precedent in the binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/binding.htm) spell for a trap that ends when any condition is satisfied. Perhaps someone cast it on the naga, using the hedged prison option (with magic wards acting as the "hedge"), and set a riddle as the condition to be met, with the twist that the creature must get it right on the first try. It is as much a punishment for the people who use the bridge as it is for the naga. For example, the wizard who bound the naga did so after it attempted to harm or trick him. The naga will readily tell the story, which contains hints about the answer - something to do with the crime in question.

The naga gives all passers-by one chance to guess the riddle's answer, but says they are correct regardless of what they answer. However, if the binding spell does not vanish, the naga attacks the travellers as soon as they step on the bridge (a girl's got to eat!). Or they can pay the toll - not with gold, but with a head of livestock for everyone who wishes to cross. Getting the cows, and getting the cows to the bridge, could be its own little adventure!

[martixy]

So you're thinking I just have the Naga be there and ask for a toll and thats it? No Riddles?

Maybe the naga that asks riddles because she's lonely and wants someone to talk to. :)

[nedz]

Maybe the naga that asks riddles because she's lonely and wants someone to talk to. :)

Naah, she's a fashion victim. Next season it's Limericks.

[Afgncaap5]

I love riddles myself, both as a player and as a DM, but only when they enhance the story of the session instead of becoming a new mini-game within D&D. How well they're received will depend on the players, and if the players start trying to find ways around the riddles, don't feel like you have to railroad them through riddle solving. (One of my favorite NPCs is a sphynx who challenges people to riddles, knowing full well that what she actually wants is a password, and that the riddle is just a way of tricking people into revealing that they're not supposed to be sneaking through her turf.)

[SethoMarkus]

As presented by the OP I think riddles in this case are fine. I mean, other means to bypass the encounter are already built in, the riddle is just one choice. I would take care to present it in such a way that the players are aware it is a choice thoug. (Perhaps introduce the toll cost first, and have the naga offer the riddle as an alternative, so the players know it is optional.)

Also, I'd like to refute the idea that riddles are more easily solvable by high intelligence or wisdom. Riddles often require thinking outside the box or involve puns related to a specific field rather than requiring high logic or above average insight. This isn't to say intelligent or wise characters can't get clues if the players are stumped, but a "roll to solve" approach defeats the purpose. As long as the riddle is optional, and there are ways to succeed other than answering the riddle, I don't think you can go wrong. After all, getting the payers to think critically and approach the game from a different angle is the point of adding riddles to the game in the first place; does it really make a difference, then, if the characters lure a troll to fight the naga rather than answer the riddle?

[Barbarian Horde]

So, my party made their way through my winter wolf encounter today that I had posted up here two weeks ago and were quite pleased with it.

Being the kind of DM who likes interesting encounters I was thinking of making the next one different.

My plan is to have a bridge spanning across a great river, my party doesnt have access to fly just yet and none of them are specked for swimming, so their way across is a toll road, ran by a guardian naga, which is CR10, which is quite a challenge for the four level 6's, the rangers level 4 goliath barbarian cohort, and the druids ape animal companion.

But the challenge will not to be to fight it, but to bypass it. My idea is for the Naga to give them four options.

1. Fight
2. Pay the toll (200 gp each, about 1k total, the party can definitely afford it)
3. Answer the riddles
4. Flee.


If they end up fighting it, I am confident they could overwhelm the naga, though I dont know with how many losses.

I really want to push the riddle thing, and I was going to use some simple logic riddles. But is this a good idea? Do riddles ever really work out in table top games?

If none of the above work, I do have plans for an underground tunnel that leads to their destination (A dwarf kingdom) across the river.

If they try to cross the river they'll get attacked by sauaghen.

Some players arn't good at riddles. So I turned it into a multiple choice sometimes. I say sphinx throws out 5 wooden coins each with unique carvings. Then she ask you a riddle and you submit which token you think is the answer. Doesn't have to be wooden tokens. Just be creative with it.

Room has an engraving "insert riddle" In front of the tablet is a emerald on a pedestal. You look around the room and realize that each statue has the same shape slot that matchs the gem. Insert gem into correct answer to get hidden door. Insert gem into wrong answer... roll encounter.

Make your own or look deeeeep into the heart of google. instead of the surface for riddles, otherwise some players cheese it and use google fu.