Why do all chromatic dragons revere the single god?

[ayvango]

They all, both LE and CE worship Tiamat (CE herself). But there should be antagonism between them like between demons and devils.

[TheCrowing1432]

Tiamatt is stronger then all of them. Dragons among all things, respect strength and power no matter what alignment they are.

[Hazrond]

Also, Dragons may be more diverse than outsiders when it comes to alignment, but they are ONE race, demons and devils are made of fundamentally incompatible energies that cause conflict between the two, the only thing that seperates the dragon races is elemental affinity and scale color.

[DrMotives]

Tiamat is the chromatic dragon's main god, but Draconomicon lists 3 evil dragon gods. Tiamat as LE, Garyx as CE, and the name a clear homage to Gary Gygax, and lastly Falazure as NE. Plus there's no rule that you can't have them be in the service of other evil gods if you want, it's just less likely than worshiping a dragon god.

[Flickerdart]

They all, both LE and CE worship Tiamat (CE herself). But there should be antagonism between them like between demons and devils.

All dwarves worship one god. All elves worship one god. The fact that dragons get two is pretty special in its own right!

[Gildedragon]

She's their creator (IIRC) and she represents them all with a head. So... yanno... deffos a god of theirs.

[ayvango]

All elves worship one god
Lolth? Other gods? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf_deities)

[Flickerdart]

Lolth? Other gods? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf_deities)

Drow aren't real elves and, well, right back atcha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_deities).

[Darth Ultron]

What dragons are you talking about? What setting? And what edition?

In D&D Lore there are a number of Dragon Gods that fill a whole pantheon.

Though starting with 4E, there has been a general dumbing down of D&D lore to make it ''easier'' for young kids to play. To ask young folks to remember more then one god is ''too hard'', so later editions just go with ''one god'' and get back to the roll playing.

[Florian]

Looking at the various settings, the answer is: They don't.

[Crake]

She's their creator (IIRC) and she represents them all with a head. So... yanno... deffos a god of theirs.

I think it depends on the setting, but i think in most cases it was Io who created the dragon race. That said, I believe some accounts state that bahamut and tiamat are just a split form of Io

[ZeroiaSD]

Looking at the various settings, the answer is: They don't.

I like how in Golarian, their creation was initially tied to a single evil dragon god, Dahak.... and then over the years most went 'bugger that,' and only a few are still loyal. Now you've got chromatics with a variety of deific loyalties, including ones who follow the good dragon good Apsu (because Apsu opposes Dahak, and they're down with that), or none at all.

[Coidzor]

She's mama. So that helps.

And some settings get some other, lesser draconic deities in on the action, though for the most part, dragons aren't that religious in the way that ordinary mortals are.

[ShurikVch]

Dragotha (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Dragotha) ditched Tiamat for Kyuss (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Kyuss)

[ayvango]

What dragons are you talking about? What setting? And what edition?

3.5 world as the subforum title states. Those dragons that are mentions in the PHB II, the Dragon Shaman class.

[Tvtyrant]

Seems to me that most dragons worship strength, which Tiamat has losts of. If an Elder Evil wandered by an evil dragon might find inspiration in its corruption, and even a good dragon might admire the purity of its raw power.

[Inevitability]

Though starting with 4E, there has been a general dumbing down of D&D lore to make it ''easier'' for young kids to play. To ask young folks to remember more then one god is ''too hard'', so later editions just go with ''one god'' and get back to the roll playing.

Even if that were true, the statement has nothing to do with 3.5. You state yourself that this didn't happen until after 4e, whereas we're talking about how 3.5 represented tiamat as being the only deity worshipped by chromatics.

[weckar]

All of this is HEAVILY setting dependent. And I personally take offense to the edition = setting mentality. I mean, take Eberron for instance. Deciphering the philosophy of dragons there would be worth a real world thesis of its own!

[Yuki Akuma]

Dragons apparently have a sort of genetic memory. Which is, for example, why wyrmlings speak Draconic right out of the egg.

[nedz]

Looking at the various settings, the answer is: They don't.

this
They don't in my setting - nor in many others

The deities in the PH are just the basic defaults - which I hardly use at all.

Here's a list of Dragon deities

Aasterinian (Dcn p031) CN
Astilabor (Dcn p032) N
Bahamut LG
Chronepsis (Dcn p033) N
Falazure (Dcn p033) NE
Garyx (Dcn p033) CE
Hlal (Dcn p034) CG
Io (Dcn p034) N
Lendys (Dcn p035) LN
Null LN
Tamara (Dcn p035) NG
Tiamat LE

[Ettina]

They all, both LE and CE worship Tiamat (CE herself). But there should be antagonism between them like between demons and devils.

Just because devils hate demons doesn't mean all LE creatures hate CE creatures. Devils hate demons for reasons besides alignment:
Demons are competition for corruption of mortals
They've tried to invade the Abyss in the past and had the invaders get corrupted and turn on their former allies (at least one of the Demon Princes used to be a devil). The Abyss turns anything that stays too long into a demon.
Devils want to rule everything and will probably never rule demons.

In contrast, most LE chromatic dragons are not as ambitious as devils, and they don't have a history of emnity with Tiamat - quite the opposite!

The only alignment that inherently hates another is Good hating Evil, and even then you can find exceptions (guys more into redemption than smiting).

[Melcar]

All dwarves worship one god. All elves worship one god. The fact that dragons get two is pretty special in its own right!

The Dwarven pantheon include: Abbathor, Berronar Truesilver, Clangeddin Silverbeard, Deep Duerra, Dugmaren Brightmantle, Dumathion, Gorm Gulthyn, Haela Brightaxe, Hanseath, Hathor, Laduguer, Marthammor Duin, Moradin, Mya, Roknar, Sharindlar, Thard Harr, Tharmekhûl, Thautam, Valkauna and Vergadain.

The Elven: Aerdrie Faenya, Alobal Lorfiril, Angharradh, Corellon Larethian (and Mystra the god of magic), Deep Sashelas, Elebrin Liothiel, Erevan Ilesere, Fenmarel
Mestarine, Hanali Celanil, Labelas Enoreth, Rillifane Rallathil, Sehanine Moonbow, Shevarash, Solonor Thelandira, Vandria Gilmadrith.

Some I'll give you are setting specific, but there are far more than one or two.

[Honest Tiefling]

Something tells me this is a relic of older editions and some sort of design choices from earlier editions. *Settles in for story time*.

[Knaight]

Some I'll give you are setting specific, but there are far more than one or two.

All of them are setting specific. Even Moradin and Corellion Latheon are Greyhawk gods inserted in the PHB as examples more than anything, and while they probably exist in most D&D settings, it's far from all. Every other one is only going to crop up if one gets specific setting books, or adheres to splat fluff.

[cobaltstarfire]

I seem to recall in the draconomicon that they tend to respect both Tiamat and Bahamut regardless of alignment.

And of course it's been pointed out repeatedly that on a generic level that chromatic dragons don't revere a single god because there's a whole pantheon of draconic gods to choose from, who says they even have to worship draconic deities?

Tiamat is the patron deity of all chromatics, she's probably more concerned with the well being of the chromatic dragons than they are with her.

[Melcar]

All of them are setting specific. Even Moradin and Corellion Latheon are Greyhawk gods inserted in the PHB as examples more than anything, and while they probably exist in most D&D settings, it's far from all. Every other one is only going to crop up if one gets specific setting books, or adheres to splat fluff.

Ok... then I will be more precise and say that the once I mentioned excist in either FR og Greyhawk... Most of what I mentioned are from FR but are printed other places as well.

My point was, that dwarves and elves worship a large number of deities, and are not monotheistic.

[ZeroiaSD]

Also, Dragons don't have to worship *dragon* gods.

In Golarion, as mentioned, there's Apsu and Dahak. And no others, because Dahak killed the others and out of their fragments is where the other dragons came. And Apsu worship is the most common form of dragon worship, a tiny minority worship Dahak... and some worship any of the various gods, especially the older ones not tied to any specific species. Worship a god of shadow and evil? Yes. Violence and strength? Sure. Magic? Makes sense. Yadda yadda.

[Darth Ultron]

3.5 world as the subforum title states. Those dragons that are mentions in the PHB II, the Dragon Shaman class.

Well, 3.5 mentions plenty of dragon gods in the Draconomicon and dragons of Fareun. But sure as the ''PH2'' is a ''coreish'' book you only get the core ones.


Even if that were true, the statement has nothing to do with 3.5. You state yourself that this didn't happen until after 4e, whereas we're talking about how 3.5 represented tiamat as being the only deity worshipped by chromatics.

Well, 3E cut down on the number of dragon gods, as too many gods it too hard for the young players to remember, but they still had a couple. The Draconomicon lists 3 evil dragon gods, for example.

[Knaight]

Well, 3E cut down on the number of dragon gods, as too many gods it too hard for the young players to remember, but they still had a couple. The Draconomicon lists 3 evil dragon gods, for example.

Putting aside the speculation into why they cut down on the pantheon, why is this a bad thing? Last I checked the quality of a pantheon wasn't just a measure of how many gods were in it; more is not always better.

[Segev]

In my personal headcanon, and thus games I run, I fill out the other two corners of the alignment grid with two more dragon gods (who are, like their siblings, parents to the dragon race).

The CG goddess of dragons is the most mysterious and reclusive of the four, with no organized church and a scattered clergy of traveling priests who play rolls ranging from merchant to advisor to trickster to bard. Favoring pranks that seem petty and mischievous but actually are meant to teach serious lessons, her priesthood is known for parables and acting indirectly and discreetly. If they're known at all.

She is also known as the Goddess of Second Chances. Redemption is her primary goal when dealing with the misguided and evil beings of the world, though her mortal clergy are willing and able to destroy evil before it can harm the innocent. Nevertheless, given the opportunity, they prefer to torment, cajole, befriend, annoy, and teach those whose ways are harmful, showing them the error of said ways and bringing them into their Goddess's forgiving light.

Perhaps befitting her impish nature, her favored humanoid form is usually young enough to be unclear as to whether she is male or female, and even then, few will ever realize the child is divine. Though because of this, gatherings of her clergy, especially upon induction of a new member, make a habit of showing great respect to the youngest attendee.

And of competitions for the best, most poignant pranks upon any nearby civilization.

While his sister, Tiamat, is often called by that last name, the nameless god is not offended, as it is not - of course - his name. Nor his title. Though it is a valid description. A god of chaos and destruction, he shares his CG sister's penchant for mischief, though his is often of a more malicious and less poignant sort. In his draconic form, he is covered in fine scales that seem to be in every possible color, and which absorb the light so darkly as to appear black. Where light nonetheless angles and distorts to form highlights, a sickly, oil-slick like rainbow effect is visible.

His preferred humanoid forms typically wear armor which bears the same coloration.

His clergy are no more organized than Azhrael's, but they are much less subtle. He grants power to those who will use it, and use it brutally. Where there is order, he seeks to disrupt, destroy, and shatter it. He, more than any other dragon god, loves to hoard things. The more key something is to upholding order, the more he relishes claiming it as his own, removing the keystone to the archways of civilization to keep as a memento of its devastation when that keystone was removed.

Where Tiamat breathes fire from her red head, lightning from her blue, acid from her black, poison from her green, and frost from her white maw, the rainbow dragon breathes but one stream of burning acid that releases a noxious, poisonous smoke crackling with electricity. When it passes, burning all it touches, the heat leeches away rapidly, leaving a frosted rime. It does all energy types simultaneously.

[Jowgen]

Bahamut is explcitly fine with his followers worshipping others besides him (so long as they ain't Evil); and since Tiamat hasn't eaten the other Evil dragon Gods, it would be reasonable to assume that she is similarly fine with it, provided they don't forget who's really in charge.

Or it could even be a matter of outsourcing. Having a more diverse Evil pantheon gives the chromatics a more customizeable worshipping choice, strenghtening the race as a whole and maximizing divine energy influx not nessecarily to her directly, but her followers, who can be assumed to have her back if need be.

Now if Gyarix and Falazure decided to oppose Timamat in some fashion, I'm quite sure the landscape would change rather drastically.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You do realize there's a difference between reverence and worship? All chromatics revere tiamat as their ancient progenitor and an exemplar of draconic power but they do not necessarily all worship her. Most of them also -revere- bahamut for much the same reasons.

Worship, on the other hand, is divided up amongst the entire draconic pantheon (draconomicon, dragon magic, and races of the dragon all have listings) by individual dragons as they see fit. A few even worship non-dragon gods. Bahamut and tiamat just get special mention because they also have large proportions of non-dragon worshippers and they're locked in an ongoing war that lends itself to writing adventures.

[Bohandas]

What dragons are you talking about? What setting? And what edition?

In D&D Lore there are a number of Dragon Gods that fill a whole pantheon.

Though starting with 4E, there has been a general dumbing down of D&D lore to make it ''easier'' for young kids to play. To ask young folks to remember more then one god is ''too hard'', so later editions just go with ''one god'' and get back to the roll playing.

They started dumbing it down in 3e. The other dragon gods were occasionally mentioned, but only in passing.

[Florian]

Putting aside the speculation into why they cut down on the pantheon, why is this a bad thing? Last I checked the quality of a pantheon wasn't just a measure of how many gods were in it; more is not always better.

Growing and then overlapping numbers of gods/pantheons can lead to a certain de-valueing effect of the fluff.
This god represents the sun. That god represents the concept of murder.
Now add more sun and murder gods and the concept begins to crumble.

[BWR]

Growing and then overlapping numbers of gods/pantheons can lead to a certain de-valueing effect of the fluff.
This god represents the sun. That god represents the concept of murder.
Now add more sun and murder gods and the concept begins to crumble.

That only applies if the gods are metaphysical embodiments of concepts or things. If the gods are merely powerful beings with an interest in things that is more political or hobby-like, as is the case in Mystara, you can have dozens of gods with an interest in e.g. 'war' and have them all be equally valid gods of war.

[Bohandas]

Putting aside the speculation into why they cut down on the pantheon, why is this a bad thing? Last I checked the quality of a pantheon wasn't just a measure of how many gods were in it; more is not always better.

Tiamat and Bahamut aren't very good

[Florian]

That only applies if the gods are metaphysical embodiments of concepts or things. If the gods are merely powerful beings with an interest in things that is more political or hobby-like, as is the case in Mystara, you can have dozens of gods with an interest in e.g. 'war' and have them all be equally valid gods of war.

This discussion so far omitted specifying the setting and seems to keep to the nebulous 3.5 core setting, the one apparently based on Greyhawk.
The mix-up happens there and gets worse with additional material added to it, but not as worse as with the FR.

[Bohandas]

That's right. IIRC Dragon religion is explicitly less Tiamat and Bahamut centric in Eberron, being more evenly divided between the dragon gods (Not to mention the progenator wyrms)

[Knaight]

Tiamat and Bahamut aren't very good

Adding more crappy D&D gods isn't going to make it better.

[nedz]

Growing and then overlapping numbers of gods/pantheons can lead to a certain de-valueing effect of the fluff.
This god represents the sun. That god represents the concept of murder.
Now add more sun and murder gods and the concept begins to crumble.

I use different pantheons in different parts of the world. This helps add a different flavour to foreign lands. Different Country: Different Sun god.

[awa]

I actually read a book that did that multiple sun gods well when you left one countries area of influence the sky literally changed as, it would have a different sun/ suns and stars in it.

Personally I find that monsters, gods, or prestige classes less is more. Too many and they are stepping on each other’s toes making each less special and less interesting.

So I have to say I don't consider less gods dumbing it down.

If there is only 1 evil dragon god I suppose it doesn't matter exactly how well the alignment matches up you’re not going to worship the good dragon god and you are certainly not going to worship a non-dragon god. A blue dragon has far more in common with a red then either has with an orc or random serial killer.

In regards to worship dragons usually are not considered very religious they are rarely depicted going to temples or listening to another dragon preach or performing religious rituals of any kind.

[Flickerdart]

I use different pantheons in different parts of the world. This helps add a different flavour to foreign lands. Different Country: Different Sun god.

Good point. In the far north, the sun god is a valued (but perhaps not very powerful) deity that protects the people from the cold and gives food and life. In the deep south, the sun god is closer to the Burning Hate than to Pelor - a dangerous and wrathful god that burns the land and must be appeased at any cost.