How to run a 5e battle bard?

[SuckerBob]

I'm hardly an expert at d&d, as most of the campaigns that I've been in with friends have devolved into silly shenanigans and have ceased to exist. Now that I'm on this forum, I'm trying to get together with some friends who actually want to run a legit campaign, with deep characters and actual stakes. Since there's so much stuff that goes into a character, I don't really know what to do to make a character that works well in game (I know that 5e bards are pretty much guaranteed to be good because they have casting, combat and utility, but still).

If anybody has any ideas for how to make a competent College of Valour 5e bard, then please let me in on some min/maxing secrets.

P.S: I don't want to become lactose intolerant, so preferably keep cheese to a minimum

[Socratov]

Hey SuckerBob,

Have you taken a look at the notable threads sticy at the top of the subforum/ It often houses helpful links like EvilAnagram's Bard guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427508-Player-s-Gonna-Play-A-Bard-s-Guide). With what you ahve given us we have little else to advise,

but here's a deal: please read through the guide and think fothe options you want to make use of or which seem cool to you. And try to think of what you want your character to look like (and able to do) as well as what flavour you'd like to see (please read through the race and backgrounds chapters of the PHB) and we'll see if we can help you by answering questions or offering suggestions.

Good luck!

[djreynolds]

Ask yourself, what does this bard look like in combat? What does this bard do when all the chips are down? Find an image?

Then decide, is this bard sleek or powerful. Okay you're powerful, then attack with strength and a shield. Find that image.

Sleek, use dex. Do you use a bow? Do you fight in a kilt? William Wallace had some bard in him.

I do not consider, dips cheesy, if they allow you to make what you want. Nothing wrong with grabbing cleric, and it comes with a cost, you need a 13 wisdom.

Concept will make optimizing easier if you have an image you are trying flesh out.

Give me an image of this valorous bard.

[Innocent_bystan]

Are you set on valor bard? Because it doesn't give you all that much.

Lvl3: medium armor and some weapon proficiencies you don't really need. Bardic inspiration options you can't use on yourself.
Lvl6: extra attack
Lvl 14: cast + attack, useful but too high level to really matter

Now, consider a 1 level multiclass into cleric. You get medium armor proficiency and shields, a bunch of handy lvl 1 cleric spells, more cantrips and if you choose Arcane cleric, you can get Greenflame Blade and Booming blade. (All found in the SCAG) Those last 2 cantrips make you do extra melee damage and function to replace extra attack.
On top of that, you get to be a Lore bard, whose cutting words ability can be used to help yourself. I use it as a sort of Shield spell.
And you can choose magical secrets at level 7, potentially netting you the best buffs available.
You don't even gave to sacrifice all that much spellcasting ability.

At least that's how I made my battle bard.

[Arkhios]

I would strongly advise against multiclassing and/or derailing the OP from what he wants to do.
Why? Because multiclassing can get really messed up and unless you know what you're doing, it can be a trap too. Multiclassing also requires the character to meet certain minimums to be able to multiclass to and from between classes.

If Valor bard is what piqued his interest, then we really shouldn't tell him to "take Lore bard instead" or whatever. Green-Flame Blade especially is a trap option if you have low wisdom (if taken via Arcane Cleric), but so is Booming Blade. Sure, you get to deal great damage with one hit, but with Extra Attack a Valor bard has two separate possibilities to land a hit per round. Both of which may hit, and deal great damage on their own.
Plus, we don't know if 14th level is "too high for it to matter". It depends on the DM and the game they're playing.

I would second what Socratov suggested, and read the guide through and come up with a sketch of a build and we might help you more. Right now your request for help is very vague. Valor bard can be done in so many ways to be effective.

[SuckerBob]

Feedback here makes me think that I should have made a few things clearer, namely that I already have a concept in mind for what I'm trying to do characterwise and I'm also trying to build off what my party already has (which is two squishy casters and a barbarian, don't really know any specifics)

Basically, my character is not very good at making decisions, and thus naturally has garbage-tier Wisdom (making cleric multiclassing harder, but I guess I could make him dumb instead of naïve). Seeing the benefits that a bit of cleric gives is making me think over this image of what I wanted things to be like (it's almost as if I already knew what I wanted before I asked, but asked anyway). Basically, the majority of the restraints I placed upo myself in creating this character were due to things I thought were common sense (valour for swords, lore for spells), but now I'm not so sure.

Also, I forgot to check other threads before posting my own, so I'm gonna go delve off into sub-forums and return refreshed (thanks for reminding me of that, Socratov). Thanks for posts and stuff!

Edit: Just remembered that everyone was asking me for more detail on the character, so here's the basics -
-Tiefling
-Male
-Bard
-Daintier (Dex-over-Strength)
-Entertainer (used to be in a band)
-Bit of a druggo (cliché, I know)
-Going to be punching things a lot due to there currently being only 1 punchy person in the party (they are a barbarian, so is that enough to frontline and tank with three casters behind them? Does that put caster bard on the cards? Because that totally works with character still)
-And starting campaign at level 5, so decent amount of power

[KorvinStarmast]

You don't need to multiclass into Cleric.

[SuckerBob]

You don't need to multiclass into Cleric.

Hokey Dokey, Lemon Pokey

[Gtdead]

Bard takes a while to come online. Unless you know that most of your campaign will take place at lvls 9+, I'd urge you to stay away.

Fighter 1/Bard X
Grab Archery from fighter.
Crossbow expert and SS
Then pump dex.

At lvl 11 you get your first magical secrets.

Your options are Haste, EW and Quiver.

EW upcasted to lvl 5, will beat Quiver when you first get it.
EW upcasted to lvl 7 will wipe the floor with any other possible buff in the game.

Quiver will start pulling ahead only after you get a magic bow.

Both Quiver and EW interaction with magic weapons may depend on your DM. For example if he allows you to stack Elemental Weapon on top of a Magic weapon then you are set.
If he considers that the "Non magical ammunition" of Quiver don't apply the bonus damage from a magic weapon, then EW competes with it even with a +3 bow.
You will need to ask him exactly how it works, but in any case, I'd take both spells just to be safe. Quiver after all is worth it just for the ability to do damage at the same turn that you cast it.

You can do the same build with PAM, GWM and EW/Haste but it obviously won't be that good since it lacks the +2 from Archery. You will be an acceptable frontliner though, especially at low levels with Heroism.

[Citan]

Bard takes a while to come online. Unless you know that most of your campaign will take place at lvls 9+, I'd urge you to stay away.

Fighter 1/Bard X
Grab Archery from fighter.
Crossbow expert and SS
Then pump dex.

I would be very interested as to know more in details why you think "Bard takes a while to come online" with Valor Bard.

After all, the great benefit of Valor Bard is having something useful to do when you runned out of spells, whereas a Lore Bard would probably spend a Magic Secret to get a good cantrip, but you still have all the many great Bard spells to use in RP and fighting (Faerie Fire, Blindness -non-concentration-, Enhance Ability, Heat Metal, Bestow Curse etc).

Furthermore, the Fighter dip in this case (DEX build) brings only two interesting things: Fighting Style and Constitution saving throw proficiency.
All necessary armor, shield and weapon proficiencies will be brought out by Valor archetype already.
Fighting Style is interesting but not worth the dip by it alone imo.
Making the decision coming down to Constitution saving throw VS Dexterity saving throw.

Honestly I have no opinion on the fact that Constitution would be plain better for a ranged character. After all, considering he would stay away from the fray, he's less susceptible to direct attacks and spells but can always benefit from better avoidance of DEX-saves AOE.

On the flip side, having a proficiency in Constitution is always good for a caster. ;)
But then again, for an armed caster, Warcaster feat will be very tempting eitherway.

@OP: I would advise you to follow the lvl 1 Fighter multiclass suggestion only in the following case...
- you start at lvl >1 (so you can start playing with the "bard" feeling from the get go).
- it is very appropriate for the character you envision to have a Fighter past.
- you plan on being more of a frontliner (even DEX-based) that uses spells mainly for utility and buffs.

And I would advise you to follow the steps proposed hereabove only if you plan on being the exact "bardish Sharpshooter" build exposed hereabove: because it means that you will have "decent but not good" Charisma for most of your career so you will fail spells significantly more often than other Bards. Which is a bit of a pity considering how many good spells you can learn). In the other cases, choose either Dueling or Defense Fighting Style.

Otherwise, I'd advise you to just play Bard and get the hang of the class, considering multiclass only if/when you feel you're really "behind" your friends in contributing to the adventure (not I didn't just say "combat").
As for multiclass options, Fighter, Cleric and Rogue are all good choices for a lvl 1 dip. :) But you'll have time to think about it when you feel the time is right.

[Specter]

A few tips from my bardic days:

- Shield is king. Rapier is better, but scimitar is cooler.
- Make room for (at least) one fighter level, Fighting Style goes a long way (I’d go for Dueling).
- Take Swift Quiver with Magical Secrets; it’s always good to be able to be an archer when you want/need to.
- Expertise depends largely on flavor and function, but I’d go for Persuasion and Stealth.
- Take a breastplate whenever possible, and don’t even think about taking Medium Armor Master for a feat.

[Gtdead]

Martial Bard takes a while to come online. Not all bards.
The fighter dip is for Archery. You don't have to start with fighter. You can dip whenever you feel like.

He asked about min maxing tips. For a valor bard to worth the trouble you need to wait till lvl 10 to come online. If the game is supposed to reach lvl 8 for example, any bard weapon based build is pointless. Better to go lore or just don't try to do too much (like investing in both CE and SS).

[Innocent_bystan]

Also: don't underestimate expertise in athletics. With it, you'll shove and grapple with the best of them even if you have only a medium strength score. Combine with shield master for extra goodness.

Is there a skillmonkey in the party? They might look to the bard to fill that role. Will there be someone that can take care of traps?

And I'm repeating myself, but take a look at the Scag cantrips. They will deal more damage than 2 attacks eventually. Take Greenflame blade at level 5: you do 1d8+3 (weapon attack) + 1d8 to the first target and 1d8+1 to a second target. Compare this to 2 attacks at 1d8+3. Your math may be somewhat different, based on ability scores, but it'll be similar. And cantrips get better every 5 levels, but you won't get any extra attacks.
(And more importantly for me and my character, I can be a lore bard instead and still be called a warrior bard)

[Citan]

Martial Bard takes a while to come online. Not all bards.
The fighter dip is for Archery. You don't have to start with fighter. You can dip whenever you feel like.

He asked about min maxing tips. For a valor bard to worth the trouble you need to wait till lvl 10 to come online. If the game is supposed to reach lvl 8 for example, any bard weapon based build is pointless. Better to go lore or just don't try to do too much (like investing in both CE and SS).
Ok now I understand where the misunderstanding comes from. :)
For you, Martial Bard has to be understood as "Valor Bard who puts his everything in maximising his weapon attacks through self-buff". In which case, indeed, the most interesting spells that you talked about won't come before lvl 10.

I view this as very reductive of how competent a Valor Bard can be even without any dipping though, considering all the fight-oriented and even more "martial buff/debuff" oriented spells he can use which benefits him and/or all party...
For example, using Blindness on a group of enemies (=advantage on all attacks for you and allies) seems as good a use of spell as a Haste or Elemental Weapon, provided you succeed of course ;). Or you could always Greater Invisibility, Enhance Ability or Polymorph yourself.
But, well, to each his own opinion. :)

With that said, I'd argue that a dip in Cleric could be as good as Fighter, in this particular context (unless there is already a Cleric in the party), because of Bless.
But since OP is starting at lvl 5, he can indeed start Fighter 1 / Bard 4 without having to think too much about it.
I would also advise for the S&B build though because from what I understood, there is only one "true" frontliner on a party of 4-5, so having another character that can stand a bit at the front would be great. And as a melee martial OP could also grab one SCAG cantrip later through Magic Initiate for example (because I feel it would be a waste to use Magic Secrets on this) if he wants to.

[Socratov]

Feedback here makes me think that I should have made a few things clearer, namely that I already have a concept in mind for what I'm trying to do characterwise and I'm also trying to build off what my party already has (which is two squishy casters and a barbarian, don't really know any specifics)

Basically, my character is not very good at making decisions, and thus naturally has garbage-tier Wisdom (making cleric multiclassing harder, but I guess I could make him dumb instead of naïve). Seeing the benefits that a bit of cleric gives is making me think over this image of what I wanted things to be like (it's almost as if I already knew what I wanted before I asked, but asked anyway). Basically, the majority of the restraints I placed upo myself in creating this character were due to things I thought were common sense (valour for swords, lore for spells), but now I'm not so sure.

Also, I forgot to check other threads before posting my own, so I'm gonna go delve off into sub-forums and return refreshed (thanks for reminding me of that, Socratov). Thanks for posts and stuff!

Edit: Just remembered that everyone was asking me for more detail on the character, so here's the basics -
-Tiefling
-Male
-Bard
-Daintier (Dex-over-Strength)
-Entertainer (used to be in a band)
-Bit of a druggo (cliché, I know)
-Going to be punching things a lot due to there currently being only 1 punchy person in the party (they are a barbarian, so is that enough to frontline and tank with three casters behind them? Does that put caster bard on the cards? Because that totally works with character still)
-And starting campaign at level 5, so decent amount of power

Glad you liked my suggestion for reading materials :smallbiggrin:

1st: yeah, Valor bard is not optimal. But that does not make it bad. And the fact that you only have 1 frontliner is not bad at all. Be a caster, just make sure they never get to you. Boost your friend, and make the enemy suck. My valor bard has never seen lvl 9 (and sadly is frozen in time while opposite a very charming and docile vampire, locked in eternal story hiatus) but has had tremendous fun with his longbow, rapier, sharpshooter skill, Heat Metal, vicious mockery and other such goodness. As opposed to 3.5, 5e is very close in terms of balance and optimisation.

Your character sounds a lot like BBC's Sherlock, so I'll give you my impression (and no it is not binding, nor the most optimised, it's just how I think you will be decent and in my opinion interesting):

Tiefling Bard (Lore at lvl 3), Sage background (roleplayed as know it all)

str: 8
dex: 14
con: 12
int: 14
wis: 12
cha: 16

skills proficient:
Acrobatics (dex) - this is a mandatory pick, and since your STR has been dumped, the other choice of athletics is a no-go.
Perception (wis) (expertise at 3) - If you wouldn't be picking this I'll come slap you. over the internet. in the face. That goes as well for the expertise
Investigation (int) - Again, a Sherlock Staple.
skills from Sage:
Knowledge Arcana |
Knowledge History -both solid know-it-all skills
skills form lore bard:
knowledge nature
knowledge religion
sleight of hand

Make yourself out to be a mediocre to decent storyteller (ask for advantage through knowledge histories), be your usual not so charming, but not easily swayed self and head out and be a wisecracking (use vicious mockery often on everything that has two legs and is a dimwit) walkin encyclopeadia. Good Fun.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

You could also take a look at the College of Swords. Has higher at-will damage output than a Valor bard, at the expense of being forced to specialize in dual-wield.

[SuckerBob]

Damn, lots to think about. Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone!

As it stands, multiclassing to fighter for proficiencies, fighting styles etc and keeping as a lore bard to get some nice casting is looking like the better option to me then going straight valour (I always found the logistics around multiclassing to be a bit of a headache, but now I'm actually paying attention it makes a lot more sense).

At the moment I'm considering rapier-and-shield with breastplate, probably duelist as a fighting style, and most likely the War Caster feat so I can be casting spells in the heat of things. As this likely means I won't be getting a second attack, I reckon picking up the Greenblade cantrip would be a good idea if I go ahead with this idea (would I have to pick it up through Magic Secrets or are there other ways?)

Result would be good AC, decent saving throws in pretty much everything, and being able to do combat decently while still having a lot of utility options thanks to Bard spells. Thoughts?

[Tanarii]

Basically, my character is not very good at making decisions, and thus naturally has garbage-tier Wisdom (making cleric multiclassing harder, but I guess I could make him dumb instead of naïve).Just so you know, in 5e Wisdom has nothing to do with quality of decision making, judgement making, nor naivete. It's about awareness (perception, intuition, being in tune with what's going on around you).

From the PHB:
"Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition." & "A Wisdom check might reflect an effort to read body language, understand someone’s feelings, notice things about the environment, or care for an injured person."

How you want to RP when it comes to decision / judgement making and innocence as to the way things work is entirely up to you and stat & mechanics independent. Or you can just be yourself and use your own natural skills (or lack thereof), again entirely free from any stat or mechanical dependency.

[Citan]

Damn, lots to think about. Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone!

As it stands, multiclassing to fighter for proficiencies, fighting styles etc and keeping as a lore bard to get some nice casting is looking like the better option to me then going straight valour (I always found the logistics around multiclassing to be a bit of a headache, but now I'm actually paying attention it makes a lot more sense).

At the moment I'm considering rapier-and-shield with breastplate, probably duelist as a fighting style, and most likely the War Caster feat so I can be casting spells in the heat of things. As this likely means I won't be getting a second attack, I reckon picking up the Greenblade cantrip would be a good idea if I go ahead with this idea (would I have to pick it up through Magic Secrets or are there other ways?)

Result would be good AC, decent saving throws in pretty much everything, and being able to do combat decently while still having a lot of utility options thanks to Bard spells. Thoughts?
I'm afraid some of the posts I've reacting to have induced you to think that Valor Bard is ineffective.

I feel compelled to point out that Valor Bard is the archetype bringing Extra Attack to you.
IF you want to take Lore Bard instead, it means that...
1. You're stuck with 1 attack per Attack (it sucks).
2. You have to go up to Fighter 5 to get Extra Attack (it sucks... For your case at least).
3. Get a melee attack cantrip through Magic Secrets (doable but I find this is a bit sad a use of Magic Secrets).
4. Get a melee attack cantrip through another caster dip (doable but requires you to like and work the added fluff).
5. Get a melee attack cantrip through Magic Initiate (Warlock or Sorcerer), the best option but means you have to wait lvl 8 to actually pump your stat or cast attack.

Dipping Fighter 1 is good because it brings many things to the table while delaying only slightly for you (especially since you don't start lvl 1 but 5). But it's not strictly required for Valor Bard to be good.
You will have plenty of use for the spells you can learn as "plain" Bard to not regret not having the lvl 6 Magic Secrets from Lore Bard. Don't forget that you are still a full caster. ;)

Faerie Fire: there should be a fair chance that, on the 3-4 enemies you target, at least one, maybe two, will be affected, providing advantage against them.
Dissonant Whispers: provides an opportunity attack for your Barb pal and can give space to your squishies pals.
Blindness: non-concentration debuff to severely hamper any enemy martial group.
Enhance Ability: probably overkill for your barbarian, help yourself grapple/shove an enemy (strength/dexterity advantage).
Heat Metal: perfect to reduce an enemy's defense (target armor) or offense (target weapon) by putting him into a conundrum.
Phantasmal Force: I'm not familiar with the spell myself but you can find threads discussing its potential.
Bestow Curse: you will be the best friend of casters. :)
Fear: potential fight-turner.
Greater Invisibility: great defense+offense buff for anyone.
Animate Objects: your new go-to spell for big fights, multiple uses (there are threads dedicated to this).
Also, don't forget you may be expected to use Healing Words sometimes and maybe sacrifice a learn on Raise Dead if there is no Cleric or Paladin in your group.

So, you see, you will have plenty of occasions to use spells and, as long as you don't have too low Charisma, it should work fine a majority of time. :)

You also get Combat Inspiration which can help your barbarian friend (better damage) or caster (better AC).

If you really feel you don't feel appealed any more, then I second the suggestion of turning to College of Swords which makes you a full dual-wielder (lesser defense but better damage than Valor thanks to always on bonus action attack) and gives you a way to use Bardic Inspiration for yourself.

[Misterwhisper]

Your party has PLENTY of arcane power already, be prepared to be on healing duty as the only person with the option.

Never underestimate healing work or healing prayer, whatever it is that is the heal at level 1 as a bonus action and ranged.

You will most likely be the skill guy. Unless one of the arcane are charisma characters that spend their few skill proficiencies, you will probably be the talker too.

Being melee is doable but not very well, the barbarian is going to overshadow you so much it will be rediculously and probably get old very fast.

However bards do 2 things better than anyone.

1. Skill guy, yes even better than the rogue, because you have spell backup and Guidance, one crazy good cantrip. Even the skills you do not get proficiency in are still going to be good thanks to Jack of All Trades. You should be dropping dice on every roll in the game.

2. Making yourself useful. You can do everything, so get in there and work in every situation in the game.

I would go Lore Bard, no multi class.

1. You do not need the extra attack, another swing with little to no feat or class ability backup is not that important.

2. 3 more skills to cover the party with, and even more once you add guidance.

3. You will not be good at damage, but nobody can disrupt better, and guards and things confiscate weapons and obvious foci, few would take a violin, guitar, flute, ect.

4. Instruments of the bards are AMAZING, and some start cheap.

5. Embrace the support role, nobody does it better, and with even more Magical Secrets thanks to lore you can pick up all those divine spells the group is sadly missing.

6. Vicious mockery... alone worth playing a bard, you insult someone so badly they take damage from it and can't attack right.

7. Tiefling race is great, I love their fluff and flavor. However, nobody out bards the half elf. I still think their race block has a typo or 2 because of how great they are.

8. Keep in mind that MS can get you a spell before the class that actually has the spell. Ex. At level 10 you can take a 5th level paladin or ranger spell even though they do not get it til 17th.

9. If you have a lenient gm, one of the cheapest and best instrument of the bards can cast shillelagh, from a nice wooden guitar like instrument. More than once I cast it on my all wood Bandore and clubbed someone with my nice magical 1d8 + Stat guitar.

That never gets old.

[SuckerBob]

Just so you know, in 5e Wisdom has nothing to do with quality of decision making, judgement making, nor naivete. It's about awareness (perception, intuition, being in tune with what's going on around you).

From the PHB:
"Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition." & "A Wisdom check might reflect an effort to read body language, understand someone’s feelings, notice things about the environment, or care for an injured person."

How you want to RP when it comes to decision / judgement making and innocence as to the way things work is entirely up to you and stat & mechanics independent. Or you can just be yourself and use your own natural skills (or lack thereof), again entirely free from any stat or mechanical dependency.

Oh, I just went with what I conventionally thought of as wisdom. Thanks!

[SuckerBob]

Your party has PLENTY of arcane power already, be prepared to be on healing duty as the only person with the option.

Never underestimate healing work or healing prayer, whatever it is that is the heal at level 1 as a bonus action and ranged.

You will most likely be the skill guy. Unless one of the arcane are charisma characters that spend their few skill proficiencies, you will probably be the talker too.

Being melee is doable but not very well, the barbarian is going to overshadow you so much it will be rediculously and probably get old very fast.

I'll be sure to keep this in mind, I initially wanted to have some combat just to balance out the party (and my natural tendency is to go with melee). Lore bard without multiclassing could work fluff-wise and crunch-wise, I just need to figure out what kind of stuff my barbarian's doing.

[Tanarii]

Oh, I just went with what I conventionally thought of as wisdom. Thanks!5e Wis does include the quality of intuition & being attuned to the world that can be interpreted of as thinking with your gut, and in fact that's an example given for a straight Wis check. That can affect the quality of decision making. But it doesn't automatically do so. IMO it's a strong correlation, not necessarily a direct cause and effect.

Just as Intelligence Score doesn't automatically make you Machiavellian, a master planner/plotter, or a strategic expert. Nor really good at making good decisions, which is something also frequently attributed to Intelligence by people. 5e Int is about mental acuity and recall, which can contribute to and affect the quality of any of the things I just mentioned. Again, think of it as strongly correlated, but not necessarily a direct cause and effect.

Edit: Thoroughly off topic. :smallbiggrin:

[JeffreyGator]

You could consider dipping one level of Unearthed Arcana Favored Soul Sorcerer to get the medium armor, shield, and melee cantrips that you need IF your GM is open to such an option. This keeps you from losing any caster levels.

[Misterwhisper]

I'll be sure to keep this in mind, I initially wanted to have some combat just to balance out the party (and my natural tendency is to go with melee). Lore bard without multiclassing could work fluff-wise and crunch-wise, I just need to figure out what kind of stuff my barbarian's doing.

Barbarians are pretty one diminsional.

He is going to take half damage from just a out everything, and will from all weapons.

He will be using a 2 hander, I have yet to see any barbarian that didnt.

He will 90% chance have either Great Weapon Master feat or Polearms Master, would not be surprised if he had both.

He will either go frenzy and beat people to death with attacks that double your damage each and do it 3 times a round, or he will be a walking stack of hit points that takes half damage on top of the mountain of HP, and still swing for 2x your damage twice.

He can tank all your group of 4 will ever need.

[Specter]

Totally forgot about War Caster, MANDATORY for using a shield.

If you and the barbarian stand in the front lines together, it might be a good idea to take Protection fighting style; you have no set use for your reaction, and it will improve his survivability by 100%.

[Professor Gnoll]

Barbarians are pretty one diminsional.

He is going to take half damage from just a out everything, and will from all weapons.

He will be using a 2 hander, I have yet to see any barbarian that didnt.

He will 90% chance have either Great Weapon Master feat or Polearms Master, would not be surprised if he had both.

He will either go frenzy and beat people to death with attacks that double your damage each and do it 3 times a round, or he will be a walking stack of hit points that takes half damage on top of the mountain of HP, and still swing for 2x your damage twice.

He can tank all your group of 4 will ever need.
Well, he's actually not using a two-hander, he's dual-wielding. He is going Bear Totem, though.
(PS: I'm the one running this campaign.)

[Innocent_bystan]

As it stands, multiclassing to fighter for proficiencies, fighting styles etc

What is that level of fighter really getting you?
2hp, 1d10+1 hp of healing per short rest, heavy armor proficiency, weapon proficiency, con save proficiency and a fighting style (likely +2 damage)

But it costs you a level of spell slots, which you will regret down the line. And you're not using a lot of it. You're wearing medium armor, you already have rapier proficiency and that +2 damage can only modify 1 attack. The healing is nice, but less effective than say a level 4 spell slot.

Alternatively, a level of cleric doesn't cost you any spell slots. It also gives medium armor proficiency, nets you at least 3 cantrips (guidance!), and allows you to prepare 4 level 1 spells (2 from domain). This means you can cast Healing word as a cleric spell and free up a Bard spell known for something cooler. Bless, for instance, is an amazing level 1 spell. And clerics explicitly get to cast cleric spells with a somatic component with a shield in hand. Lessening the need for warcaster somewhat.

And a special mention goes to the arcana cleric: you get 2 extra cantrips (GFB and BB), always have Detect Magic prepared (Rituals don't use spell slots) and you get proficiency in the Arcana skill. Combined with Lore bard you will probably be proficient in half of all skills.

And I'll have to check, but I'm pretty sure a cleric doesn't need a god to worship. You could follow an ideal.

[SuckerBob]

What is that level of fighter really getting you? (insert multiclass to cleric argument here)

True stuff. I'm still trying to get everything figured out. At the moment, I'm thinking to either go pure Valour bard and hold out for a few levels to fully come online (but still be pretty useful in the meanwhile, keeping it cool with some healing, dispel magic and lesser restoration) and completely forgo multiclassing for the meanwhile, which was basically what I initially wanted to do, or go for a Lore bard and get some multiclassing into things that give me good melee abilities (like cleric, as you said).

Really, the only reason I would be hesitant to go Cleric multiclass is the 13 Wisdom prerequisite, as Wisdom isn't really a bard thing (and despite the earlier discussion re: my misunderstanding of the nature of Wisdom in the thread, my character is still not wise), so I'd have to find a different dump stat which would probably end up being Strength.

Maybe I shouldn't have set the thread tag to optimisation, as I'm still looking to keep in character with this build.

All the arguments you raise help heaps in just getting me to think through everything and consider the benefits and consequences of multiclassing, so thanks heaps!

[djreynolds]

In the Unearthed Arcana, UA, there are two bard kits, one is College of swords, pretty cool. But one is College of Jester, but jester. It is really cool and maybe up you alley.

College of Swords is a two-weapon fighter who also throws daggers. Check them out.

Rapier and shield is just fine, studded leather. And I would grab war caster of course, also for AoO with a spell it provides, and if you do not mind playing a high elf, who gets a free cantrip, look into grabbing magic initiate and get stuff from the sorcerer spell list, particularly two attack cantrips, I recommend firebolt and shocking grasp.

[Citan]

True stuff. I'm still trying to get everything figured out. At the moment, I'm thinking to either go pure Valour bard and hold out for a few levels to fully come online (but still be pretty useful in the meanwhile, keeping it cool with some healing, dispel magic and lesser restoration) and completely forgo multiclassing for the meanwhile, which was basically what I initially wanted to do, or go for a Lore bard and get some multiclassing into things that give me good melee abilities (like cleric, as you said).

Well, I'd suggest you to stick with your initial idea then. Not that the suggestions everyone proposed are bad, but they obviously distort your initial character idea. :)
And like this, at least if you're a bit disappointed at the end you will be able to say that you gave its full chance to Valor Bard.
But frankly I don't see why you would be disappointed. ;)
A DEX-based Valour Bard can switch from ranged to melee S&B or even dual-wielding (although it's very meh without Fighting Style) depending on the needs. Sure, you won't be doing as much damage as other martials at the same level. But frankly, nobody expects you to do so. You're first a support character. And many spells you will use will compensate your relatively low to-hit anyways.

Although, I would advise keeping WIS to 13/14, not only for multiclass, but also because WIS is largely used in spells anyways so you don't want to be bad at it.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

A DEX-based Valour Bard can switch from ranged to melee S&B or even dual-wielding (although it's very meh without Fighting Style) depending on the needs. Sure, you won't be doing as much damage as other martials at the same level. But frankly, nobody expects you to do so. You're first a support character. And many spells you will use will compensate your relatively low to-hit anyways.

Well put. Bards are casters first, build to assits the rest of the party in combat, not to be a shining star on all on their own. Valor Bards are much more closely comparable to clerics than any other class, IMO. You lose out on some of the flashy divine powers of a cleric, but you get a character who excels at the mundane everyday out of combat tasks that comes from skills, like chatting with NPCs, sneaking, etc.

[RedMage125]

I played a dragonborn Valor Bard for awhile.

Acquired half plate and a shield and I was usually in melee. Rest of the group was a barbarian, Arcane trickster, Goo-lock, and TWF fighter.

Concept was a Skald type of character. His instrument was a horn that he kept on a leather thong on his neck. So he could drop/stow his weapon and simply grab the horn and blow it when casting spells (fond of Sleep) or for using Inspiration. He would also sing tales of battle in combat. At 4th level, I took War Caster, so I didn't need to drop the weapon anymore.

He was more of a bruiser than anything, and he knew Cure Wounds for out of Combat healing, since he was the only healer, although the rogue took the Healer feat to help out.

[SuckerBob]

I've taken some time to think and mull over all my options for bard, and basically I'm down to 2 that I think I would want to use.

The first is just to go straight up College of Valour. Looking everything over, Valour is pretty damn good even if it doesn't give as much casting and the combat potential it brings is overshadowed by the Barbarian in the party. It's got really good versatility and lots of different uses for bonus actions, like using Bardic inspiration on the Barbarian to give him a lot of options as to what he uses it on. Since the campaign starts at level 5 and Extra attack comes in at level 6, with big combat spells like Polymorph and Greater Invisibility coming in at level 8, I think it comes online soon enough. I might well take a level or two of Fighter or something early on, but I'm not sure if I should do that or just go straight for some of the bigger Bard spells.

The second option is to go Lore Bard and multiclass with something that gives extra combat proficiency. I was actually thinking Paladin, but this would need a 2 level dip rather that 1 to really be effective as a combat option and I really don't know when I would take the two levels. Other than that, I'd probably go one level of Fighter and use Magic Secrets to get my hands on some handy melee cantrips and Paladin smites. Either way, the result would be using spells to boost melee while still having the proficiencies and extra casting that a Lore Bard gets (Sure, I won't get Extra Attack, but I'll hurt like hell for the one attack I do make). Building this way would mean it would probably take a little while longer to come online, either as a combat character or a caster due to delays of multiclassing (unless I managed skills, levels and spells intelligently). I was thinking Paladin or Fighter rather than Cleric basically because I don't want to bother having Wisdom 13, which both doesn't really work for the character and is not really a stat that Bards care about. I've thought it over for a long time and I'd prefer to get melee abilities from other classes and Magic Secrets.

I don't know which one of these would work better, and if it's the latter I'd really need some advice on how to skill it.

[Citan]

I've taken some time to think and mull over all my options for bard, and basically I'm down to 2 that I think I would want to use.

The first is just to go straight up College of Valour. Looking everything over, Valour is pretty damn good even if it doesn't give as much casting and the combat potential it brings is overshadowed by the Barbarian in the party.

The second option is to go Lore Bard and multiclass with something that gives extra combat proficiency. I'd probably go one level of Fighter and use Magic Secrets to get my hands on some handy melee cantrips and Paladin smites. Either way, the result would be using spells to boost melee while still having the proficiencies and extra casting that a Lore Bard gets (Sure, I won't get Extra Attack, but I'll hurt like hell for the one attack I do make).
Hey ;)
There is something I don't understand in your thoughts, the point that I put in bold.
Why are you saying that "Valour Bard doesn't get as much casting"?
Valour Bard is a full caster also. The only difference with Lore is that you have two Magic Secrets so two extra spell learnt with the latter. But since you plan on getting a melee cantrip to compensate the lack of Extra Attack, in your case, it means basically one spell more only.

Also, keep in thought some things about self-buffing and Magic Secrets.
- All weapon-related buffs (such as Elemental Weapon) are better when you have more chances to attack. Meaning it's more useful for a Valour Bard than for a Lore Bard (especially if you plan on using melee cantrip, because you cannot even trigger a dual-wield bonus action attack).
- Bless is probably equally good for both, but there is probably someone else in your party that can cast it anyways.
- Haste is equally good for both since the extra "1-attack Attack" is not submitted to any condition.

Finally about Lore Bard build, unless you planned on having a high STR, one way to go about it could be dipping Draconic Sorcerer 1 instead of Fighter. You lose medium/heavy/shield proficiency but...
- you gain Draconic Armor (13 + DEX) which should give you at least 15-16 armor, decent.
- you gain proficiency in Constitution saving throw which you can maybe prefer.
- you gain some offensive spells, including the melee cantrips you want.
- the loss of skill by "starting" Sorcerer is compensated by the Lore Bard School.
Then you can grab Shillelagh with Magic Secrets to build a "CHA-only" build. This build is only worth if you like the idea of using Shillelagh on a quarterstaff to attack though.
Otherwise this would be a trap since you wouldn't have proficiency with martial weapons or shields.

Anyways...
The best for you to decide could be just to wonder...
a) If you go "Lore Bard", which spell would I really want to take then (since one of Magic Secret is taken by a cantrip whatever happens).
b) If I compare this spell to the spells I want to learn and use anyways as "normal" Bard, is it worth the archetype choice and delay in Bard spellcasting?
Because in those 5-10 levels, you will have limited spellcasting anyways and the Lore's Magic Secrets are limited to spells of levels 1 to 3. :)

The other important question is, what do your party expect from you? If you're supposed to be the party face or the skill monkey, then Peerless Skill from Lore seems to good to pass.
If instead the key word is "versatility", then you're free to choose. ;)

[SuckerBob]

True stuff, I kind of forgot that the only benefits that Lore Bards get with casting is extra Magic Secrets only going up to level 3. I hadn't thought much about Sorcerer until I looked at it, and then I figured that it would be more on the cards as a lore bard. One of the big reasons for liking Fighter and Paladin was proficiency in armour and shields, which would give me more than 16 AC, so I decided against Sorcerer (also the thing you said about Shillelagh maybe not working with character is correct).

The more I think about it, the more appealing the extra attack from Valour Bard becomes, so I might just go with that and take a value level in Fighter. I'm not going to need to skill monkey too hard and my character may not be the most important in terms of the grand narrative (we have some sort of Oracle in the party in a campaign with lots of time shenanigans, so that's probably the focus), so I don't see any reason not to go Valour. Thanks for the multiple posts, you've really helped me get to the stage where I can say "I have a functioning character".

Stay fresh.

[Citan]

The more I think about it, the more appealing the extra attack from Valour Bard becomes, so I might just go with that and take a value level in Fighter. I'm not going to need to skill monkey too hard and my character may not be the most important in terms of the grand narrative (we have some sort of Oracle in the party in a campaign with lots of time shenanigans, so that's probably the focus), so I don't see any reason not to go Valour. Thanks for the multiple posts, you've really helped me get to the stage where I can say "I have a functioning character".
Stay fresh.
I guess you want the Fighter dip for Constitution proficiency then? :)
Anyways, it was my pleasure. Have fun!

[SuckerBob]

I guess you want the Fighter dip for Constitution proficiency then? :)
Anyways, it was my pleasure. Have fun!

The Protection Fighting style to help my Barbarian out as well, but yeah.

I will have fun, thankyou!