Spells based on the ground

[Kryx]

Definition of "ground"

the soil that is on or under the surface of the earth
the solid surface of the earth.


There are a few spells that specify "ground"

Maximilian's Earthen Grasp: "You choose a 5-foot-square unoccupied space on the ground that you can see within range. A Medium hand made from compacted soil rises there and reaches for one creature you can see within 5 feet of it."
Spike Growth: "The ground in a 20-foot radius centered on a point within range twists and sprouts hard spikes and thorns."

Maximilian's Earthen Grasp specifically mentions soil so I assume that requires dirt, meaning the first definition.
Spike Growth mentions spikes and thorns that I presume would require dirt, meaning the first definition.

Also of importance is Maximilian's Earthen Grasp is a transmutation spell - meaning it is changing the ground (soil) into a hand
Spike Growth is also a transmutation spell.

Questions

Should "ground" be a limiting factor for spells like Maximilian's Earthen Grasp or Spike Growth?
If yes, would they work on stone floors?
If yes, would they work on a pirate ship made of wood?

[SharkForce]

maximilian's earthen grasp merely specifies what the hand is made of, not what the ground must be made of. going back to the original source material, you will find that there used to be an entire line of maximilian's ________ grasp spells. earthen grasp was, I believe, the lowest-level version, and was a hand made of soil. later on you could get rock as well, for example.

I wouldn't require either spell to have soil to function, personally.

[Kryx]

going back to the original source material, you will find that there used to be an entire line of maximilian's ________ grasp spells.
Found the 2E source:


This spell causes an arm made of compacted soil to rise from the ground. The spell must be cast on open turf, such as a grassy field or a dirt floor.

Stony grasp is the same:

This spell must be cast on stony ground, such as a man made stone floor, a natural cavern floor, or a boulder-strewn field. It is not possible to cast the spell on a stone wall or ceiling.

[Mr.Moron]

The word can have multiple meanings and context is important for determining which.

For Destructive Wave, Cloudkill & Create Food or Water "Ground" simply means nearest resting surface and could mean the floor, the deck of ship and so on.
For Earthen Grasp it means natural ground made of some kind of soil, comparted earth or something else that can otherwise form hand in question.
For Earthquake is simply means the planet's crust. So it would work directed at compacted earth, the ocean floor, the space beneath a building, or a rocky mountain. It would not work on the deck of ship.

[Kryx]

For Earthen Grasp it means natural ground made of some kind of soil, comparted earth or something else that can otherwise form hand in question.
What about spike growth?

[Slipperychicken]

I think most of those spells should work on other surfaces, unless the spell actually needs the ground to work. Earthen grasp and Earthquake should require ground because they work by manipulating soil that's already there.

In the others (like create food and water and destructive wave), I think "ground" is meant as shorthand for whatever surface could support it, including stuff like the floor of a ship. It's kind of like how a policeman could shout "get on the ground!" at me as I stand in an apartment building, and I'd know he wants me to lie on the floor instead of running out toward the lawn.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Entangle has vines "sprout" from the ground; when cast inside an inn, I had them erupt from between the floorboards. I would probably try to find ways to make the effect make sense in most environments. A space completely enclosed in marble or metal might give me pause... but even then it's not clear that this should prevent the "conjuration" of wriggly weeds, unless the DM feels like invoking a general "you're cut off from nature right now so your magic is on the blink" clause.

[Mr.Moron]

What about spike growth?

I think there a multiple fair ways to read. It depends on how you read "sprouts hard spikes & thorns" are you literally causing thorny vines & bushes to grow: In which case something that such things could penetrate and proliferate through is required. It needn't be dirt or something that could sustain the plant, but any sort of surface it can proliferate through works.. A ball pit? Yes. The deck of a ship? Yes if the boards or loose or it's around slats of some kind? A smooth metal room? No.

If you read it as the ground itself sort of distorting into spikes & thorns itself made from the base material that the ground itself is made of? Then it doesn't really matter, anything solid and hard enough would do. The wooden deck of a ship distorts and sprouts pointy wooden bits and nails popping out, a solid metal floor becomes all spikey and stuff.

I don't have my books to read the full description so I'm mostly just going off memory and your snippet here. If the spell text further clarifies the behaviour as being one or the other, obviously that applies.

[Kryx]

I've removed every spell other than Spike Growth and Maximilian's Earthen Grasp to prevent confusion.


A space completely enclosed in marble or metal might give me pause... but even then it's not clear that this should prevent the "conjuration" of wriggly weeds,
So would you allow entangle or spike growth on a solid stone floor?

[Mr.Moron]

I've removed every spell other than Spike Growth and Maximilian's Earthen Grasp to prevent confusion.


So would you allow entangle or spike growth on a solid stone floor?

A smooth slab of marble? No
A brick walkway? Yes
A rocky cavern? Yes
A castle? How well is it maintained, how tightly do the stones fit?

[Coffee_Dragon]

So would you allow entangle or spike growth on a solid stone floor?

I'd look for ways to avoid having to say that the plants physically erupt from a smooth marble slab. For instance, if the floor had not actually been described in exacting detail, there might be convenient cracks regardless of whether I had intended any. If cracks were out, maybe the vines could come crawling from nearby openings and dark corners. Failing any handwaving of that sort, I don't know, but it doesn't seem too out there to make the spell's conjuration include thin patches of soil to avoid flavour incongruities. My willingness to look for reasons to allow it would probably be proportional to the party's current level of desperation.

[R.Shackleford]

Basic english: ground = floor

Unless a spell or ability specifically stated it *needs* certain materials I'm not going to be bothered by being a finicky DM.

Sure an earth elemental can't earth glide through a castle floors due to requiring "non-magical, unworked earth and stone" but any ability that calls for the ground in a general sense is fair game.

Maximillian's Earthen Grasp is transmutation, I'll write it off as transmuting (say stone from a floor) to uncompacted soil.

[Kryx]

Maximillian's Earthen Grasp is transmutation, I'll write it off as transmuting (say stone from a floor) to uncompacted soil.
Can it also transmute lava? That's another form of earth.

How about 5 feet of snow on top of earth?

Ice over a lake?

[Ganders]

1. Yes, the type of ground should matter. Maximillion's spells call it out specifically. For other types of spells, which use the ground as nothing but a location where something happens (cloudkill, create food and water), the type of ground wouldn't matter.
2. Probably won't work on a stone floor, unless the player is lucky enough to find a portion of the floor that isn't paved, or has cracks in the rock, or something. Some DMs might even allow the caster to cast it on the dirt beneath the stone floor (if there is any), and have the magic effect (attempt to) push up through the floor.
3. On a ship, the above trick about 'the dirt beneath' obviously wouldn't apply. So the spell just couldn't work on a ship. There are actually many spells that wouldn't work on a ship (Stone Shape would not work on wood, for example). I might, however, allow a spell such as Earthquake to affect 'the water beneath the ship' as 'the ground' -- with slightly altered effects.


Even after saying all the above, I'd be inclined to be more lenient with Spike Growth. For one thing, it has a duration, meaning the ground goes back into its original shape after a few minutes. Quite unlike Erupting Earth or Tidal Wave or Plant Growth type spells, which seem to be permanent. Also, spikes and uneven terrain can plausibly be made out of almost anything: dirt, stone, wood, plants, bones, chitin, coconut shells, whatever is available. Heck, you don't even need to explain exactly how it works: it still *appears* perfectly normal.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Can it also transmute lava? That's another form of earth.

How about 5 feet of snow on top of earth?

Ice over a lake?

Why not?

As a DM I take the fluff writing of Maximillian Earthen Grasp (hand made of uncompacted soil) and would just refluff it to magma, snow, ice, or whatever.

The only thing that really matters is the mechanics of an ability, when said ability is balanced to begin with. When you allow fluff to be flexible you turn a simple spell into a cool spell.

Maximillian's Swampy Grasp is pretty cool.

[Kryx]

As a DM I take the fluff writing of Maximillian Earthen Grasp (hand made of uncompacted soil) and would just refluff it to magma, snow, ice, or whatever.
You're welcome to refluff any spell however you want. One could do the same to turn burning hands into acidic spray for example.

But that's not relevant to this thread which is asking how to interpret the spell as written.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

You're welcome to refluff any spell however you want. One could do the same to turn burning hands into acidic spray for example.

But that's not relevant to this thread which is asking how to interpret the spell as written.

No. You are confusing something here.

With your example you are changing the mechanics of the spell (Fire to Acid). What I have proposed is changing the Fluff.

Changing the fluff on burning hands is allowing it to shoot out a character's butt. No mechanical impact. For your hands, you need to occupie them in some way to help push the flaming fart out. Push them together, squeeze something, or use them to pray to whatever god that you don't screw this up.

[Kryx]

With your example you are changing the mechanics of the spell (Fire to Acid).
By the argument of several posters above you'd be changing the mechanics of the spell as well.

The spell is vaguely worded. Some interpret it to mean dirt, others not. That's what I'm asking. For both Maximilian's Earthen Grasp and Spike Growth.

Thanks for your response.

[Joe the Rat]

I like adapting the spells to suit the environment, to an extent. Entangle could easily turn into seaweed on a body of water, but no plant will grow in lava. Of course, I am prone to using the variant rules for lava and magma.
A ball pit? Yes. This is the most brilliantly evil thing I have seen in quite some time.