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This be Richard
2016-05-11, 02:10 PM
Okay. So. I am one of those people who feels that the fifth edition Ranger is... lacking. I appreciated the Unearthed Arcana entry that sought to address this problem, but the UA solution had its own problems: it only went to fifth level; it had too many things vying for bonus actions. So I put my head together with a friend and we pulled together a tentative rework for the ranger. We're not using it for anything, but it's a thought experiment we felt was worth playing with. Below is what we came up with.

Of note is that spellcasting has been removed from the core class (though we've created a 1/3 caster subclass), making room for new and altered features.



Level
Proficiency Bonus
Hunter's Mark
Features


1
+2
--
Favored Enemy, Natural Explorer


2
+2
2
Fighting Style, Hunter's Mark (1d6)


3
+2
3
Ranger Archetype


4
+2
3
Ability Score Improvement


5
+3
3
Extra Attack


6
+3
4
Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer improvements


7
+3
4
Ranger Archetype feature


8
+3
4
Ability Score Improvement, Land's Stride


9
+4
4
Evasion


10
+4
4
Natural Explorer improvement, Stalker's Flurry


11
+4
4
Ranger Archetype feature


12
+4
5
Ability Score Improvement


13
+5
5
Hunter's Mark (2d6)


14
+5
5
Favored Enemy improvement, Feral Senses


15
+5
5
Ranger Archetype feature


16
+5
5
Ability Score Improvement


17
+6
6
Stalker's Dodge


18
+6
6
Ambuscade


19
+6
6
Ability Score Improvement


20
+6
Unlimited
Hunter's Mark (3d6)



Hit Points, Proficiencies, and Equipment
Unchanged from the Player's Handbook.

Favored Enemy
For the most part, this feature follows the text in the Player's Handbook. With that said, we've cannibalized the Foe Slayer feature to buff the Favored Enemy as follows, starting at level 1:
When in combat against your favored enemies, once on each of your turns, you can add your Wisdom modifier to the attack roll or the damage roll of an attack against them. You can choose to use this feature before or after the roll, but before any effects of the roll are applied.

Natural Explorer
Unchanged from the Player's Handbook.

Fighting Style
Unchanged from the Player's Handbook.

Hunter's Mark
What was previously a spell is now a core feature of the class:
In battle, you may exhibit a fearsome focus upon a single enemy for a short time. On your turn, you can use a bonus action to choose a creature you can see within 90 feet and mystically mark it as your quarry. For as long as the mark remains in place, you deal an extra 1d6 damage to the marked target whenever you hit it with a weapon attack, and you have advantage on any Wisdom (Perception) or Wisdom (Survival) check to find it.
Your hunter's mark lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are knocked unconscious. If the target drops to 0 hit points before the effect ends, you can use a bonus action to mark a new creature.
You may use this feature a number of times based on your level as shown in the Hunter's Mark column of the Ranger table. After that, you may not use it again until you finish a long rest.
The amount of extra damage you deal to the target of your Hunter's Mark increases to 2d6 at level 13, and 3d6 at level 20.

Ranger Archetype
You gain subclass features at the same levels as before: 3rd, 7th, 11th, and 15th. We've kept the Hunter and Beast Master and added a couple of new options: the Skirmisher and the Spellwarden. All are detailed at the end of the class description. The Deep Stalker archetype presented in Light, Dark, Underdark (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/02_UA_Underdark_Characters.pdf) is not available, as its features were used elsewhere in the class.

Ability Score Improvement
Unchanged from the Player's Handbook.

Extra Attack
Unchanged from the Player's Handbook.

Land's Stride
Unchanged from the Player's Handbook.

Evasion
Functions as per the 7th level Rogue feature.

Stalker's Flurry
Functions as per the "Deep Stalker" archetype feature presented in UA article Light, Dark, Underdark (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/02_UA_Underdark_Characters.pdf).

Feral Senses
This is the same as the Ranger feature presented in the Player's Handbook save that it is gained at 14th level instead of 18th level.

Stalker's Dodge
Functions as per the "Deep Stalker" archetype feature presented in UA article Light, Dark, Underdark (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/02_UA_Underdark_Characters.pdf).

Ambuscade
Functions as per the class feature presented in the UA article Ranger (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/DX_0907_UA_RangerOptions.pdf).

This be Richard
2016-05-11, 02:11 PM
HUNTER
"Evasion" is no longer available as a level 15 feature choice. Beyond that, this archetype is unchanged from the Player's Handbook.


BEAST MASTER

3: Ranger's Companion
You can use your bonus action to have your companion attack the target of your Hunter's Mark. Otherwise, this is unchanged from the Player's Handbook (and its errata).

7: Exceptional Training
Unchanged from the Player's Handbook.

11: Bestial Fury
Unchanged from the Player's Handbook (and its errata).

15: Fearsome Partnership
While you are within 50 feet of your beast companion, it adds your Wisdom modifier to its damage rolls.
With spellcasting no longer a core class feature, "Share Spell" has been removed.


SKIRMISHER

3: Hidden Resolve
You have four action points. An action point is expended when you use it. Once per round, you may use an action point to take a second bonus action on your turn. You regain all of your expended action points when you finish a short or long rest. You can an additional action point at 7th level, another at 11th level, and one more at 15th level.
Additionally, you may use a bonus action to Disengage.

7: Underbrush Scout
This feature is adapted from the Deep Stalker archetype's feature, "Underdark Scout."
On your first turn during combat, you gain a +10 bonus to speed. If you use the attack action on that turn, you can make one additional attack. Additionally, you may attempt to hide as a bonus action at the end of each turn if you meet the normal requirements for hiding.

11: Pathfinder
You may use a bonus action to Dash. Whenever you Dash, any opportunity attacks made against you are made with disadvantage until you stop moving.

15: Like Wind
At the end of your turn, you may use a bonus action to Dodge.


SPELLWARDEN
Functions similarly to Eldritch Knight, but with a few adjustments.

3: Spellcasting
As per the level 3 Eldritch Knight feature with the following changes:
-Your casting ability is Wisdom.
-You choose your spells from the Druid spell list. The schools you may choose from are Conjuration and Transmutation instead of Abjuration and Evocation.
-One of your starting cantrips must be either Thorn Whip or Frostbite. You may cast the chosen spell without somatic or material components.

7: War Magic
Functions as per the Eldritch Knight feature.

11: Eldritch Strike
Functions as per the Eldritch Knight feature.

15: Marked Spell
When you use a spell that damages the target of your Hunter's Mark, the creature suffers additional damage from your Hunter's Mark as though it were a weapon attack.

Markoff Chainey
2016-05-12, 05:04 AM
First of all: good work!

I like that you did some redesign that takes a lot of what is already there.

IMO, the ranger lacks some "ranger feel", not raw power. If you do some math, it is actually quite strong (see the class DPR comparison from Kryx). The biggest power-problem it suffers is not due to the ranger chassis, but to Two-Weapon-Fighting being subpar when you try to build a melee ranger. A ranged Ranger is quite a power house, though.

Also, I did not run the figures yet, but I am pretty sure that 2d6 and 3d6 on every hit is simply too strong.

Yet, even when you fix two-weapon fighting with either a rend effect or an additional bonus action attack at lvl 11 (those 2 are the most common fixes) - the ranger is powerful, but does not feel much ranger-like (IMO, but I guess you feel the same, otherwise you would not have done that redesign).

When I look at your redesign, you more or less added power in terms of a very few (nice and matching) abilities, but sacrificed the spellcasting and that is what gives the ranger a lot of his diversity. And there are some ranger-only spells that are basically abilities of the ranger...
Hail of Thorns
Cordon of Arrows
Conjure Barrage
Lightning Arrow
Conjure Volley
Swift Quiver

What I would do instead is to leave the spellcasting, but change the mechanics to a paladins'... skip the part where a ranger has to prepare his spells. There is no reason why a ranger's spellcasting should be worse than a paladin's. Fix Two-Weapon-Fighting (see above), so that a melee-ranger makes sense mechanically. Add a free nature proficiency to his skills, add GWF as a fighting style to choose from and make every favored enemy automatically "hunter's marked" without the need of casting a spell. - this way the main ability regains some power and hunter's mark becomes basically a class ability.

If you don't like my proposal, I would definately try to get those ranger spells into the class somehow - maybe as a subclass with limited casting and additional spell list like a cleric domain or maybe use a warlock chassis with invocations that are spelllike-abilities. Many of what the ranger can do with his spells is what makes a ranger - spells like Jump, beast bond, goodberry, speak with animals, ... IMO when you design a spellless ranger, you have to focus on that and not on adding raw power.

My 2 cents...
Cheers!

Gort
2016-05-12, 05:43 AM
Yes, Nice.

All much better than the options in the PHB.

I'd like something a bit more powerful at level 15 for beast master. I keep thinking a high level beastmaster should be able to command a number of beasts. Similar to what a caster can do.
Maybe I've seen too many B grade movies

Cheers

This be Richard
2016-05-12, 11:45 AM
Thank you both!


IMO, the ranger lacks some "ranger feel", not raw power. If you do some math, it is actually quite strong (see the class DPR comparison from Kryx). The biggest power-problem it suffers is not due to the ranger chassis, but to Two-Weapon-Fighting being subpar when you try to build a melee ranger. A ranged Ranger is quite a power house, though.

Also, I did not run the figures yet, but I am pretty sure that 2d6 and 3d6 on every hit is simply too strong.

I thought I recalled something about rangers having solid damage output at low levels, but getting outstripped by other classes later on. Even a two-weapon fighter at low levels can drop Hunter's Mark on their offhand attacks, which seems to me like it would make a significant difference, and that's one of the reasons I sought to preserve the Hunter's Mark spell as a class feature, even if it did undergo some changes.
The damage boost to Hunter's Mark was meant to address that dwindling power at higher levels. At most -- assuming every attack hits -- an additional d6 of Hunter's Mark damage deals 2d6 (or 3d6 if two-weapon fighting, which gives you an extra swing but has a lower chance of connecting than a sniper-ranger with the right fighting style) per round, which struck me as competitive but not greater than what Fighters get out of an additional attack.
I could be off here. I might be overlooking something in terms of damage output or I could just be wrong that rangers need the help at higher levels, but that's my thinking, at least.


Yet, even when you fix two-weapon fighting with either a rend effect or an additional bonus action attack at lvl 11 (those 2 are the most common fixes) - the ranger is powerful, but does not feel much ranger-like (IMO, but I guess you feel the same, otherwise you would not have done that redesign).

The Skirmisher subclass I presented above goes a long way to giving a player what I feel a ranger should have. It makes snipers exceptionally good at tactical engagements, and it even frees up two-handed rangers to make the occasional tactical play alongside their extra attack.
I would have loved to make the skirmisher features part of the core class, somehow, but I would have wanted to introduce the level 3 feature somewhere in the first five levels, and the early levels are too full of essential features to make room for another one.



When I look at your redesign, you more or less added power in terms of a very few (nice and matching) abilities, but sacrificed the spellcasting and that is what gives the ranger a lot of his diversity. And there are some ranger-only spells that are basically abilities of the ranger...
Hail of Thorns
Cordon of Arrows
Conjure Barrage
Lightning Arrow
Conjure Volley
Swift Quiver

I actually had a "Swift Quiver" feature in my first draft of the build, but the friend who worked on it with me pointed out that it -- like much of the above spell power -- doesn't really do much good for two-weapon melee rangers. So I ended up throwing out the idea.


What I would do instead is to leave the spellcasting, but change the mechanics to a paladins'... skip the part where a ranger has to prepare his spells. There is no reason why a ranger's spellcasting should be worse than a paladin's. Fix Two-Weapon-Fighting (see above), so that a melee-ranger makes sense mechanically. Add a free nature proficiency to his skills, add GWF as a fighting style to choose from and make every favored enemy automatically "hunter's marked" without the need of casting a spell. - this way the main ability regains some power and hunter's mark becomes basically a class ability.

If you don't like my proposal, I would definately try to get those ranger spells into the class somehow - maybe as a subclass with limited casting and additional spell list like a cleric domain or maybe use a warlock chassis with invocations that are spelllike-abilities. Many of what the ranger can do with his spells is what makes a ranger - spells like Jump, beast bond, goodberry, speak with animals, ... IMO when you design a spellless ranger, you have to focus on that and not on adding raw power.

I would have liked to add in ranger spells for the Spellwarden subclass, but that would have left the level 5 spells inaccessible and wouldn't have provided the subclass with cantrips... so we went with the druid spell list. Which, personally, I think works well enough as a compromise, even if it leaves out some of the more "martial" spells on the ranger list.



I'd like something a bit more powerful at level 15 for beast master. I keep thinking a high level beastmaster should be able to command a number of beasts. Similar to what a caster can do.

I can see where you're coming from, and it would make sense for a "Beast Master" ranger to be able to forge relationships with more than one beast. That said, I actually prefer the thematics of the beast being a single, loyal companion (whose impact in a fight is generally more than any other allied "pet" available).
You can't really do both. If the feature makes a companion strong enough to participate meaningfully in an appropriate-level fight, having more than one would be highly unbalanced. If you balance things for multiple companions, you punish anyone who doesn't have the maximum number.

As for the power level of the feature, I actually thought it respectably strong. By level 15, the companion animal gets multiple attacks (from level 11) and gets to add as much as 5 points of damage to each swing. I guess, alternatively, we could allow it to benefit from the Hunter's Mark damage bonus? But that would be really strong, I think.

Rerem115
2016-05-12, 03:24 PM
Overall, seems like a reasonable change to the class. One minor issue though: Hunter's Mark is supposed to be useful for tracking enemies; base duration is one hour, which scales up as you cast it at a higher level. While the damage boost is a terrific upgrade, loosing the duration very nearly eliminates its use for tracking purposes. In one of my ranger fixes, I left the duration at an hour, and allowed expending an additional use while it was active in order to refresh the duration. I feel that would be reasonable to have here, but that's just me.

This be Richard
2016-05-12, 04:01 PM
Overall, seems like a reasonable change to the class. One minor issue though: Hunter's Mark is supposed to be useful for tracking enemies; base duration is one hour, which scales up as you cast it at a higher level. While the damage boost is a terrific upgrade, loosing the duration very nearly eliminates its use for tracking purposes. In one of my ranger fixes, I left the duration at an hour, and allowed expending an additional use while it was active in order to refresh the duration. I feel that would be reasonable to have here, but that's just me.

You might be right. I really wrestled with the duration of Hunter's Mark, and I'm not at all certain that I came to the right decision with it.

I could have given it the original duration and allowed for a number of uses based on the number of times the original class could cast it out of spell slots, but there were reasons I thought I shouldn't.
-The class has other features that help mitigate the absence of spellcasting, so it wouldn't be right to give them a full suite of castings.
-The damage goes up at levels 13 and 20, making it more powerful than the spell.
-It no longer requires concentration. That's not a big deal for casting since most rangers in this rework don't have spells, but it does mean that it can't be interrupted by taking damage.

So I ended up modeling the frequency and duration of use for the Hunter's Mark feature after the Barbarian's rage.

Maybe it should be longer, though, and allow for expenditure to continue usage. What kind of frequency and duration would you suggest?

Rerem115
2016-05-12, 04:18 PM
Wait, what? No concentration? I must have missed that. I've always been an advocate for concentration spells. I know hunter's mark does mess with a lot of ranger spells, but I feel the concentration is necessary for a spell that powerful. Maybe have an exception that it doesn't count as concentration when combined with other spells, but you still have to make saving throws when hit?

I still feel that duration of 1 hour with the ability to extend it seems fair, especially since you don't get very many castings of that ability to begin with.

This be Richard
2016-05-13, 08:18 AM
Wait, what? No concentration? I must have missed that. I've always been an advocate for concentration spells. I know hunter's mark does mess with a lot of ranger spells, but I feel the concentration is necessary for a spell that powerful. Maybe have an exception that it doesn't count as concentration when combined with other spells, but you still have to make saving throws when hit?

I still feel that duration of 1 hour with the ability to extend it seems fair, especially since you don't get very many castings of that ability to begin with.

I didn't remove concentration in order to keep it from messing with other spells -- with this build, most Rangers don't even get spells -- so much as because it felt weird to include concentration in something that wasn't a spell anymore, but a class feature instead. Also, I'm concerned that including concentration would punish two-weapon rangers more than it would punish archer rangers, since they'd be more likely to get interrupted, they kind of need the boost Hunter's Mark provides to remain competitive, and they need to forego their offhand attack in order to re-set the mark. That's a significant problem, I think.

If I did include concentration, I'd probably want to include more uses and/or remove the bonus action needed to set the mark (which would mean that the only thing lost when concentration is disrupted is one of the feature's uses).