Need help making a Psion/* Gestalt on Con based manifesting

[WhiteBread]

As written in the title above I need a Psion Gestalt build. Thanks to a homebrew race I get Con based manifesting for any psionic class.
The stats are pretty heavy. I originally rolled 2 18 stats with 4d6 toss lowest system but DM didn't believe me (i did have at least 1 18 in my last 3 builds) so I just let him reroll my stats. Same system he rolled 4 18 xDDD.. was a pretty awesome situation.
Current stats are 18,18,18,18,11,9

Thanks to relative high stats I was thinking of making a Psion/Psychic Warrior build but realised that Psychic Warrior won't give me much. And worst is that i lack skill points( wanted to dumb int with 11). Currently i decided to have the left side Psion5/Anarchic Initiate5 and the right side *5/Chameleon2(for the floating feat; expanded knowledge and gets maybe adapted for psionics)/Constructor(for Astral Construct)3.

If possible i would like having a Gestalt build utilizing a Greataxe. That's also why i wanted Psychic Warrior for his many bonus feats but having no skill points is pretty bad. Any other good options?

Edit:By homebrew rule I can only have 3 classes on each side.

[Flickerdart]

What do you want to do as a psion? By your mention of the greataxe, it seems you want melee ability, but this is unclear. What discipline do you want to pick?

Fortunately for you, Constitution is a lot easier to boost than Intelligence. You could easily make a build based around CON pumping, for massive DCs, and spamming save-or-die powers. For example, putting Stoneblessed 3/Dwarf Paragon 3 on the non-psion side gives you a +4 CON boost.

[WhiteBread]

What do you want to do as a psion? By your mention of the greataxe, it seems you want melee ability, but this is unclear. What discipline do you want to pick?

Fortunately for you, Constitution is a lot easier to boost than Intelligence. You could easily make a build based around CON pumping, for massive DCs, and spamming save-or-die powers. For example, putting Stoneblessed 3/Dwarf Paragon 3 on the non-psion side gives you a +4 CON boost.

Want to make a Shaper Psion that fights alongside his Astral Construct. Dwarf Paragon is dwarf only if i am not mistaken and therefore not viable.

Edit: After checking Stoneblessed I stand corrected on my mistake. However there are almost no dwarfs in his campaigns normally. But i write it down as an option. However i still have skill point problems. Having only 2 per level is bad.

[Flickerdart]

What about making your character a mounted warrior? Rather than fighting beside the astral construct, you could fight atop it!

[Red Fel]

Totemist. Totemist so much.

Totemists, like other Incarnum users, are Con-based, which synergizes nicely with your Con-based Psion. Further, a Totemist gives you fantastic versatility and great flavor - as a Shaper, you're molding ectoplasm into solid form; as a Totemist, you're molding soul-stuff into solid form as well. Totemists are also a combat-ready class, which makes for some fun, and their chassis pairs nicely with a Psion's - Psions get 1/2 BAB and a good Will save, while Totemists get 3/4 BAB and good Fort and Reflex saves. Shore up those holes in the chassis!

Basically, the downside of gestalt is the fact that you generally can't perform two actions at once; you'll only benefit from the active abilities of one class at a time. Totemist solves that by giving you lots of versatile passive abilities, allowing your Psion powers to be more active.

[WhiteBread]

What about making your character a mounted warrior? Rather than fighting beside the astral construct, you could fight atop it!

That sounds freaking awesome ! Any ideas how utilize this?


Totemist. Totemist so much.

Totemists, like other Incarnum users, are Con-based, which synergizes nicely with your Con-based Psion. Further, a Totemist gives you fantastic versatility and great flavor - as a Shaper, you're molding ectoplasm into solid form; as a Totemist, you're molding soul-stuff into solid form as well. Totemists are also a combat-ready class, which makes for some fun, and their chassis pairs nicely with a Psion's - Psions get 1/2 BAB and a good Will save, while Totemists get 3/4 BAB and good Fort and Reflex saves. Shore up those holes in the chassis!

Basically, the downside of gestalt is the fact that you generally can't perform two actions at once; you'll only benefit from the active abilities of one class at a time. Totemist solves that by giving you lots of versatile passive abilities, allowing your Psion powers to be more active.

Gonna go and check it. Sounds very nice too

[Flickerdart]

That sounds freaking awesome ! Any ideas how utilize this?
I was going to say that you could game Windrider, but it requires 3 days of training with a mount to grant it bonuses. There are some feats you can use:
Tremendous Charge lets you apply your mount's strength score when dealing damage on a charge. Astral constructs are no slouches in the strength department.
Cavalier and Kishi Charger grant some cool mount perks, like charges that are twice as fast.

[ExLibrisMortis]

In a melee-focused gestalt, you can hardly escape the one-level dip in a ToB class, for a stance and a few utility maneuvers.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I originally rolled 2 18 stats with 4d6 toss lowest system but DM didn't believe me (i did have at least 1 18 in my last 3 builds) so I just let him reroll my stats. Same system he rolled 4 18 xDDD.. was a pretty awesome situation.
Current stats are 18,18,18,18,11,9

Christ on the Cross, those stats! I've never seen anything that good, and I was in a game where everyone rolled a die with all sixes and didn't notice until afterwards. Might want to check the balance on those... On second thought, don't. Just make sure you're rolling those for damage.

[WhiteBread]

In a melee-focused gestalt, you can hardly escape the one-level dip in a ToB class, for a stance and a few utility maneuvers.

Currently i am thinking of how to get some Bab on one side and a pounce. I do know the Psychic Warrior has a Pounce Power but it is missing on the Psion Power list which is sad. Moreover there is no full bab psionic base class .. uff guess i lose out on power points but is there a stance which functions as pounce?

[Jurai]

Currently i am thinking of how to get some Bab on one side and a pounce. I do know the Psychic Warrior has a Pounce Power but it is missing on the Psion Power list which is sad. Moreover there is no full bab psionic base class .. uff guess i lose out on power points but is there a stance which functions as pounce?

If you take Totemist, you can bind Sphinx Claws to gain Pounce for all the tasty natural weapons you have. Also, you could probably take Extra Power to acquire Psionic Lion's Charge.

[Pyromancer999]

If you take Totemist, you can bind Sphinx Claws to gain Pounce for all the tasty natural weapons you have. Also, you could probably take Extra Power to acquire Psionic Lion's Charge.

Can also do the standard 1 level dip in Lion Totem Barbarian at level 1 for better hitpoints, a point of BAB, and some Rage or Rage-variant to boost combat ability.

[WhiteBread]

I came up with this. Only wondering if this will work:

Race: Fiendish Sheep(Gestalt) 2con,-2int,+2cha (Homebrew Race)

1 . Shaper Psion/ Barbarian with Lion Totem Pounce Variant and Whirling Frenzy Rage Variant -> nets me d12(start hp), PP, Powers(1st) ,Pounce+Rage(var), Medium Armor, Weapon Profiencies, bonus psionic feat

2. Shaper Psion/ Fighter -> nets me d8, pp, Powers, 1 fighter feat, heavy armor

3. Shaper Psion/ Fighter -> nets me d8, pp and powers, 1more fighter feat

4. Shaper Psion/ Barbarian -> nets me d12, pp, powers, saves, uncanny dodge(maybe var),

5. Shaper Psion(ACF with Favorite Construct)/ Sanctified Mind -> Swift Construct, but need to get Iron Will and some skillpoints into rather useless skills

6. Constructor PRC/ Sanctified Mind -> +ml on psion and able to construct things better now

7. Chameleon/ Sanctified Mind -> +ml on psion

8. Chameleon/Sanctified Mind -> FLAOTING FEAT!! +ml on psion and still full bab

9 Constructor PRC/ Barb, Fight or other full bab class-> +ml on psion left side again
.
.
.
17 Constructor PRC/ Sanctified Mind -> +ml on psion,


-> i basically created a full bab psychic warrior with 9th level manifesting focusing on astral construct.



Christ on the Cross, those stats! I've never seen anything that good, and I was in a game where everyone rolled a die with all sixes and didn't notice until afterwards. Might want to check the balance on those... On second thought, don't. Just make sure you're rolling those for damage.

too bad our dm uses them .... they were our death sentence a lot of times....

[Flickerdart]

Don't forget that Rage shuts down your manifesting. Make sure to only pop it after you've buffed up. Also - the feat Mounted Fury gives Rage benefits to anything you're riding. Mindless constructs can't benefit from morale bonuses, but they still get the ability score modifiers.

You can also swap out Rage and Indomitable Will, for a combat style and Favored Enemy as a ranger.

[WhiteBread]

Don't forget that Rage shuts down your manifesting. Make sure to only pop it after you've buffed up. Also - the feat Mounted Fury gives Rage benefits to anything you're riding. Mindless constructs can't benefit from morale bonuses, but they still get the ability score modifiers.

You can also swap out Rage and Indomitable Will, for a combat style and Favored Enemy as a ranger.

Yeah Rage shuts it down so i kinda thought of swift manifesting constructs via the ACF of psion shaper than do a pounce and go in with a whirling frenzy which then will give me an additional attack. Mounted Fury sounds badass for an Astral Construct. Can i pounce while riding? Or do i need that with my mount?
Just checked and yes it can pounce too. That sounds ridiculously broken and like a lot of fun.

[Jormengand]

May I suggest that if you want melee ability, you take something 8//Psion 8 then Psion 1/Slayer 1 then Something 9/Slayer 9 then something 2/psion 2. This gives you full bab if your something has full bab, full manifesting, and some nifty passive abilities from slayer and the 19 levels of whatever you took on the other side (like, immunity/near-immunity to 3 schools and 2 disciplines is kinda neat).

[WhiteBread]

May I suggest that if you want melee ability, you take something 8//Psion 8 then Psion 1/Slayer 1 then Something 9/Slayer 9 then something 2/psion 2. This gives you full bab if your something has full bab, full manifesting, and some nifty passive abilities from slayer and the 19 levels of whatever you took on the other side (like, immunity/near-immunity to 3 schools and 2 disciplines is kinda neat).
You can change the Sanctified Mind on my build for slayer it would work the same. However the way you try to do it won't work. Psion 1 doesn't give bab and therefore you would be stuck at 19 Bab for 20 levels. Or am i understanding something wrong about gestalt? I thought Bab/Fort/Ref/Will would be taken from the side which has the better progression on it and not every level.

[Jormengand]

You can change the Sanctified Mind on my build for slayer it would work the same. However the way you try to do it won't work. Psion 1 doesn't give bab and therefore you would be stuck at 19 Bab for 20 levels. Or am i understanding something wrong about gestalt? I thought Bab/Fort/Ref/Will would be taken from the side which has the better progression on it and not every level.

The psion 1//slayer 1 level will give you +1 BAB, because you take the better one. So you have 10 levels where you have something//psion, and that's okay because something has full base attack bonus, 1 level where you have psion//slayer, and that's okay because slayer has full base attack bonus, and 9 levels where you have something//slayer and that's okay because they both have full base attack bonus. What you could do is take 4 levels of psion//something, one of sanctified mind//psion, one of sanctified mind//slayer, 4 of sanctified mind/something, and 9 of something//slayer before rounding off with a final psion//something level. All of these have at least one side of something, sanctified mind, or slayer. You can take some of the sanctified mind//something or something//slayer levels as being with constructor, especially using the progressions to make sure your non-manifesting levels always meet up with a manifesting level. Remember that even constructor and psion levels DO increase your base attack bonus even though odd ones don't.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can change the Sanctified Mind on my build for slayer it would work the same. However the way you try to do it won't work. Psion 1 doesn't give bab and therefore you would be stuck at 19 Bab for 20 levels. Or am i understanding something wrong about gestalt? I thought Bab/Fort/Ref/Will would be taken from the side which has the better progression on it and not every level.
The best base attack/saves are taken for each level separately. For example, the following:

Rogue 1 || Duskblade 1
Barbarian 1 || Bard 1
Ranger 1 || Wizard 1

Gets full base attack and three good saves on each level, no matter how you divide the levels. That is, you don't have to put duskblade, barbarian and ranger all on one side for full BAB/good fort, and you don't have to put rogue, bard and ranger all on one side for a good reflex save, and you don't have to put duskblade, bard and wizard all on one side to get a good will save.

[Jormengand]

In fact, Gestalt "Sides" don't actually really exist. Each level, you just take two levels and get their benefits:


A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. A few caveats apply, however.

Also, I forgot that you can't combine two PrCs in one level. I suggest you ignore this restriction, or more to the point ask your DM to ignore it.


A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class.

[WhiteBread]

In fact, Gestalt "Sides" don't actually really exist. Each level, you just take two levels and get their benefits:



Also, I forgot that you can't combine two PrCs in one level. I suggest you ignore this restriction, or more to the point ask your DM to ignore it.

Good to know... the thing about no 2prcs at the same time is a bit offputting though and i have to redo the chameleon part. I can't get full ml progression at all though if i take it for these 2 levels or i will loose full bab....
DM wanna keep it without combining prcs in one level.


The best base attack/saves are taken for each level separately. For example, the following:

Rogue 1 || Duskblade 1
Barbarian 1 || Bard 1
Ranger 1 || Wizard 1

Gets full base attack and three good saves on each level, no matter how you divide the levels. That is, you don't have to put duskblade, barbarian and ranger all on one side for full BAB/good fort, and you don't have to put rogue, bard and ranger all on one side for a good reflex save, and you don't have to put duskblade, bard and wizard all on one side to get a good will save.

Except maybe if i am get +1bab on the next level of psion or something... gotta rebuild this

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Make sure to take the Linked Power feat so you can manifest a 1 pp power as a standard action or less, and Link astral construct to it so it goes off at the beginning of your next round, and you don't have to sit around manifesting it for the whole time. You can even manifest it as an immediate action if you use grip of iron, or even an effective non-action if you use synchronicity. With grip of iron in particular, you can manifest it right before your turn and have astral construct go off immediately. That way you won't waste two turns creating a mount and then mounting it.

If Hyperconscious is available, how about shaper 5/ghostbreaker 1/constructor 9/ghostbreaker 4 on one side, and totemist 2/incarnate 2/soulbound psychic warrior 2/dungeoncrasher fighter 6/abrupt jaunt, combat, conjuror wizard 1/whirling frenzy lion spirit totem barbarian 1/martial, chaos, decisive strike, bane of the clockwork monk 2/swordsage 2/crusader 1/warblade 1? Lots of dippiness, but it's almost full BAB, and you can get away with either wearing no armor (monk) or light armor (swordsage). And you can rearrange those classes on the second side however you want, since there are no PrCs. And feel free to intersperse ghostbreaker with constructor however you like.

[WhiteBread]

Would this work for getting full bab?

1 1erudite mantle discipline psion*/// 1 generic warrior(bab)
2 1""psion(bab)/// 1 generic expert
3 1""psion/// 1 generic expert(bab)
4 1""psion(bab)///1psychic warrior
5 1""psion///1psychic warrior(bab)
6 1""psion(bab)///1 chameleon
7 1""psion///1 chamelon(bab)
8 1""psion(bab)/// 1 constructor
9 1constructor(bab)/// 1ardent
10 1constructor///1ardent(bab)
11 1constructor(bab)///1divine mind
12 1constructor///1 generic warrior(bab)

*Spell-to-Power is not allowed. Using both 1st level bonus feats(1 is psicrystal affinity) to trade them off for construct mantle and either egoist or telepath discipline.

Think that will work? Saves should be decent thanks to dips. Full Bab is there and full Manifesting. "Ride" can be picked up as class skill too. Psionic Lion Charge can be picked up later via feats. Right side is generating feats mostly which will be used to improve my Astral Construct. Any additions i can make to improve my AC even further?

Edit: We agreed that 4 18 stats would unbalance the team too much. So we redid the stats as this 18, 18, 16, 15, 11, 10

[ExLibrisMortis]

No, that build would get about 9,75/12 base attack, if memory serves, because your second and fourth through eleventh levels do not have full base attack. You don't get +1 base attack at psion level 2, you get +0,5 base attack at levels 1 and 2, just rounded down at level 1. You also can't get full base attack by going wizard 12/fighter 1/sorcerer 11, for the same reason. You pick the best possible progression for each stat. In your build, that's warrior 1/expert 2/psychic warrior 2/chameleon 2/constructor 1/ardent 2/divine mind 1/warrior +1.

[WhiteBread]

No, that build would get about 9,75/12 base attack, if memory serves, because your second and fourth through eleventh levels do not have full base attack. You don't get +1 base attack at psion level 2, you get +0,5 base attack at levels 1 and 2, just rounded down at level 1. You also can't get full base attack by going wizard 12/fighter 1/sorcerer 11, for the same reason. You pick the best possible progression for each stat. In your build, that's warrior 1/expert 2/psychic warrior 2/chameleon 2/constructor 1/ardent 2/divine mind 1/warrior +1.

So i can't have full base attack if i don't take 1 full bab class at each level? ...Or is that only with fractional bab?
Are my saves here 13, 6, 13? Kinda thinking i am counting them wrong too.

[Jormengand]

No, that build would get about 9,75/12 base attack, if memory serves, because your second and fourth through eleventh levels do not have full base attack. You don't get +1 base attack at psion level 2, you get +0,5 base attack at levels 1 and 2, just rounded down at level 1. You also can't get full base attack by going wizard 12/fighter 1/sorcerer 11, for the same reason. You pick the best possible progression for each stat. In your build, that's warrior 1/expert 2/psychic warrior 2/chameleon 2/constructor 1/ardent 2/divine mind 1/warrior +1.

This is incorrect, unless you're using the fractional base attack bonus variant rule.

[WhiteBread]

This is incorrect, unless you're using the fractional base attack bonus variant rule.

Ah thought so. Well gotta talk with DM about this but we never played with fractional BAB so far so i might get lucky.

[Requiem_Jeer]

Just be sure to mention that the fractional rule was specifically in the gestalt section specifically because of the wiz19/ftr1//sor20 trick. It's generally considered part and parcel with gestalt.

[WhiteBread]

Just be sure to mention that the fractional rule was specifically in the gestalt section specifically because of the wiz19/ftr1//sor20 trick. It's generally considered part and parcel with gestalt.

Yeah i told him about it and we looked it up. I actually just wanted a Psionic Shaper focusing on Astral Construct and wielding a giantaxe himself. So far my build doesn't loose too much so i am okay with fractional too if he decides so.

[ExLibrisMortis]

This is incorrect, unless you're using the fractional base attack bonus variant rule.
It is correct that it does not get full base attack bonus, because you are still picking the best progression for each class, not just staggering levels at which you get base attack. If you don't want to use the fractional variant, you'll be getting even less, because all those two-level dips in 3/4 classes will only net you +1 each. The example build given would have +5 base attack bonus.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It is correct that it does not get full base attack bonus, because you are still picking the best progression for each class, not just staggering levels at which you get base attack. If you don't want to use the fractional variant, you'll be getting even less, because all those two-level dips in 3/4 classes will only net you +1 each. The example build given would have +5 base attack bonus.Except if you were NOT going gestalt, you would gain the +1 when the table says you gain the +1, not "gain 0.5 BAB this level." So a wizard 1/sorcerer 1/druid 1/cleric 1 gains +0 BAB, not +3. If you gain the +1 when it says you gain the +1 (like regular play does), then non-fractional gestalt would mean that you do, indeed, gain the +1 according to the chart.

[WhiteBread]

It is correct that it does not get full base attack bonus, because you are still picking the best progression for each class, not just staggering levels at which you get base attack. If you don't want to use the fractional variant, you'll be getting even less, because all those two-level dips in 3/4 classes will only net you +1 each. The example build given would have +5 base attack bonus.



The best base attack/saves are taken for each level separately

They way i built it i got +1bab at each level. Or is this only true for fractional bab?


Except if you were NOT going gestalt, you would gain the +1 when the table says you gain the +1, not "gain 0.5 BAB this level." So a wizard 1/sorcerer 1/druid 1/cleric 1 gains +0 BAB, not +3. If you gain the +1 when it says you gain the +1 (like regular play does), then non-fractional gestalt would mean that you do, indeed, gain the +1 according to the chart.

This is like i understood it with nonfractional bab.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Except if you were NOT going gestalt, you would gain the +1 when the table says you gain the +1, not "gain 0.5 BAB this level." So a wizard 1/sorcerer 1/druid 1/cleric 1 gains +0 BAB, not +3. If you gain the +1 when it says you gain the +1 (like regular play does), then non-fractional gestalt would mean that you do, indeed, gain the +1 according to the chart.
The behaviour in non-gestalt is not all that relevant to the gestalt rules, is it? The rules tell you to take the best progression, from the two classes you have, at each level. Psychic warrior has a better base attack progression than psion, even when opposite to an even psion level. Psions are not 'full base attack half the time', they use the 'bad base attack progression', worse than the 'three-quarter' progression.

[Jormengand]

The progression for psion 2 is +1 bab. The progression for psion 3 is +0 bab. If you take fighter 1/wizard 19//psion 20 then yes, yes you get full bab. Yes, this means that sometimes the psion's bad bab is better than the wizard's bad bab.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The progression for psion 2 is +1 bab. The progression for psion 3 is +0 bab. If you take fighter 1/wizard 19//psion 20 then yes, yes you get full bab. Yes, this means that sometimes the psion's bad bab is better than the wizard's bad bab.
I would not rule that way. For one, the psion's base attack is never better than the wizard's - bad, good and medium base attack are clear game terms, they aren't the conventional good and bad indicating desirability. For two, the progression is not '+1 at psion 2, 4, ... , 20', it is 'the bad progression'.

The way I would rule a fighter 1/wizard 19//psion 20 is as follows: you have 1 level fighter//psion, which grants you +1 base attack, as per the good progression, and 19 levels wizard//psion, which grants you +9 base attack (and a half, with fractional), as per the bad progression. Each combination of two classes has its own progression, based on the better of the two classes, and your first level of wizard//psion gets +0, as per the bad progression.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I would not rule that way. For one, the psion's base attack is never better than the wizard's - bad, good and medium base attack are clear game terms, they aren't the conventional good and bad indicating desirability. For two, the progression is not '+1 at psion 2, 4, ... , 20', it is 'the bad progression'.

The way I would rule a fighter 1/wizard 19//psion 20 is as follows: you have 1 level fighter//psion, which grants you +1 base attack, as per the good progression, and 19 levels wizard//psion, which grants you +9 base attack (and a half, with fractional), as per the bad progression. Each combination of two classes has its own progression, based on the better of the two classes, and your first level of wizard//psion gets +0, as per the bad progression.Question: In that case, what's your BAB at level 2? What happens if you take a level of cleric at level 3? You take a level in cleric at level 4. What's your BAB then? 5? 6? 7? Either you use fractional BAB or what's on the chart, or there's absolutely no way to tell what your BAB is at any given level if you multiclass at all.

[Flickerdart]

Question: In that case, what's your BAB at level 2? What happens if you take a level of cleric at level 3? You take a level in cleric at level 4. What's your BAB then? 5? 6? 7? Either you use fractional BAB or what's on the chart, or there's absolutely no way to tell what your BAB is at any given level if you multiclass at all.

What a surprise, the writers forgot that multiclassing exists. That's never happened before.