[Text trumps table] Artificer feats

[thethird]

So... reading the artificer class.


Bonus Feat: An artificer gains every item creation feat as a bonus feat at or near the level at which it becomes available to spellcasters.

Does this mean that an artificer gains every item creation feat as a bonus feat?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Does this mean that an artificer gains every item creation feat as a bonus feat?
I suppose, but you wouldn't know when. 'Near' is too vague, it can always be the next level, under a certain definition.

[fishyfishyfishy]

You're not listing the rest of the paragraph where it goes on to clarify exactly how it works, and which feats are granted at which level. You can't ignore part of a description and take it out of context to try and make it mean something else entirely. That's what many people would call being a "munchkin", though I despise the term myself.

[Troacctid]

Let me answer your question with a question.

Bonus Feat: An artificer gains every item creation feat as a bonus feat at or near the level at which it becomes available to spellcasters.
Does this mean that an artificer gains every item?

Read the whole ability. Taking bits of it out of context will mislead you.

[thethird]

You're not listing the rest of the paragraph where it goes on to clarify exactly how it works, and which feats are granted at which level. You can't ignore part of a description and take it out of context to try and make it mean something else entirely. That's what many people would call being a "munchkin", though I despise the term myself.


Let me answer your question with a question.

Does this mean that an artificer gains every item?

Read the whole ability. Taking bits of it out of context will mislead you.

Fine, let's read the whole ability.


Bonus Feat: An artificer gains every item creation feat as a bonus feat at or near the level at which it becomes available to spellcasters. He gets Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat at 1st level, Brew Potion at 2nd level, Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd level, Craft Magic Arms and Armor at 5th level, Craft Wand at 6th level, Craft Rod at 9th level, Craft Staff at 12th level, and Forge Ring at 14th level.

In addition, an artificer gains a bonus feat at 4th level and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th). For each of these bonus feats, the artificer must choose a metamagic feat or a feat from the following list: Attune Magical Weapon, Craft Construct (see the Monster Manual, page 303), Exceptional Artisan, Extra Rings, Extraordinary Artisan, Legendary Artisan, Wand Mastery.

1) Artificer gains every item creation feat.
2) Artificer gains this feats at this levels
3) Artificer also gains this other feats not necessarily item creation feats at this other levels

2 and 3 don't invalidate 1 at no point.

[Jowgen]

The RAW seems to lean in that direction. Other feats would be gained once they could qualify if a caster, arguably.

The question is, did they intend to make all item creation feats available, but only put in the core ones into the table out of laziness; or, did they forget there were other item creation feats and messed up in the text wording?

Now I could see RAI arguments for both. Sure, access to everything labled item creation (especially them tasty crafting cost reduction feats) would be well powerful, but then again, being able to craft just about anything is supposed to be the Artificer's schtick.

If a player came to me wanting all item creation feats based on this wording, I'd compromise and give the ones that actually allow the creation of something new (e.g. Craft Portal); but not those that modify existing item creation. Spread them out over levels where others aren't gained and such. But that is just me.

Edit:

1) Artificer gains every item creation feat.
2) Artificer gains this feats at this levels
3) Artificer also gains this other feats not necessarily item creation feats at this other levels

2 and 3 don't invalidate 1 at no point.

It is not an exculsive wording as stated. Again, by RAW argument for more item creation feats can be made.

Again, the RAI question remains. Did they list these feats while forgetting that there were others and messing up the wording, or did they simply not feel like going the extra mile to list the more obscure item creation feats?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Let me answer your question with a question.

Does this mean that an artificer gains every item?

Read the whole ability. Taking bits of it out of context will mislead you.
That's misleading and unfair. You're not cutting across constituent boundaries, which is a totally different way of taking something out of context.

The whole ability is as follows:

An artificer gains every item creation feat as a bonus feat at or near the level at which it becomes available to spellcasters. He gets Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat at 1st level, Brew Potion at 2nd level, Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd level, Craft Magic Arms and Armor at 5th level, Craft Wand at 7th level, Craft Rod at 9th level, Craft Staff at 12th level, and Forge Ring at 14th level.
[...]
(then it continues with the bonus feats at every 4th level)

This list specifies when those specific item creation feats become available, but not the remaining ones. That obviously means they aren't accessible in any actual game, but they are, in principle, part of the feats you get. Someday. At level 'undefined'. For example, an ability which states "you get all artificer class features, regardless of level" would include all item creation feats, even those not in the table.

[Troacctid]

The first sentence of the ability is vague. The rest of the paragraph clarifies it.

[thethird]

This list specifies when those specific item creation feats become available, but not the remaining ones. That obviously means they aren't accessible in any actual game, but they are, in principle, part of the feats you get. Someday. At level 'undefined'. For example, an ability which states "you get all artificer class features, regardless of level" would include all item creation feats, even those not in the table.

That appears to really strain any definition of near.


The first sentence of the ability is vague. The rest of the paragraph clarifies it.

While I agree that the rest of the paragraph clarifies it for the feats that are clarified at the rest of the paragraph it does not address the feats that are not clarified during the rest of the paragraph.

[ExLibrisMortis]

That appears to really strain any definition of near.
Well, not on the scale of hundreds of times of [whatever the maximum level your campaign is], it doesn't. I mean, it's a really vague statement, you're going to get a really vague range of levels at which you get the non-specified feats. In this case, the range is about N.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Fine, let's read the whole ability.



1) Artificer gains every item creation feat.
2) Artificer gains this feats at this levels
3) Artificer also gains this other feats not necessarily item creation feats at this other levels

2 and 3 don't invalidate 1 at no point.

That's not how paragraph structure works in English. The first sentence is the topic sentence which contains general information, and the follow up sentences are supporting sentences which explain the topic in further detail. You have to evaluate the entire paragraph as a whole instead of reading each sentence individually. They do not invalidate it so much as they provide the context necessary to derive the information the writer is intending to portray.

[Swaoeaeieu]

While I agree that the rest of the paragraph clarifies it for the feats that are clarified at the rest of the paragraph it does not address the feats that are not clarified during the rest of the paragraph.

wich other feats are you looking for, can´t you already pretty much make anything you want with the one listed?

[Florian]

Different classes fulfill the prerequisites for the different item creation feats at different levels, so that´s the "at or near" part.

All item creation feats listed are core only and don´t cover anything beyond that. It´s up to the GM to add more item creation feats to the list and give them a level depending on further source material allowed for the game.

So, as written and with core and ECS in mind, the list is complete and covers everything.

[DarkSoul]

Does this mean that an artificer gains every item creation feat as a bonus feat?Yes, it does, and it tells you exactly when those feats are acquired. No, you don't just get them all at level 1. The rest of the ability seems pretty complete considering the setting and printed books at the time. Is there some other item creation feat you think should be included?

As for the [Text trumps table] part of your thread title: No, it doesn't. There's no discrepancy between the text and the table.

[Gildedragon]

wich other feats are you looking for, can´t you already pretty much make anything you want with the one listed?

Craft Contingent Spell
Craft Portal
Craft Moving Portal
Craft Magical Tattoo
Graft Flesh
The eberron grafting feats
...

[Red Fel]

It is extremely common for the first sentence of a feat or ability description to be fluffy hyperbole, and for the rest to be crunchy specificity. Where that happens, my tendency is to ignore the first sentence almost entirely - it basically just sets context, as others have said.

This one appears to say "You get all of the feats!" But that's the first sentence. The rest says, "Actually, these are the feats and when you get them." According to such a reading - one in which there is a general statement followed by several specific ones - I would hold that the second reading actually excludes the first. That is, the specific list of feats and when you get them trumps the general statement of getting all of the feats.

Or are we no longer doing "specific trumps general?"

[MortalSword]

I think the text is pretty self explanatory. You get item creation feats at appropriate levels for free. I suspect there is a little intentional misunderstanding on the wording to try and get extra feats for free in there. I get that some of the other crafting feats weren't around yet. I still wouldn't add them to the class features. It tells you what feats you get and when. Hell there's even one in the ECS itself that isn't on the list. Not listed means you don't get it.

I say take the feats not listed as normal like everyone else has to. You already get tons of free stuff that everyone else has to waste a feat on and you can craft them 2 caster levels sooner than the person who actually spent the feat on it can.