50 Wishes

[Jowgen]

For reasons too fantasical to imagine, you suddenly find yourself with a one time opportunity to use Wish as a SLA 50 times in a single round. After this, no more wishes or miracles will ever be available to you ever again.

How do you proceed?

[Aegis013]

Bestow a random gift of +5 Inherent bonus to a random ability score to 10 nearby commoners. Because why not?

Edit: This makes a number of assumptions, such as "If I can use this thing 50 times in a round, I'm probably powerful enough to already have this effect on myself, and my companions are also in a similar position, and we're in a fantasy world" type of deal.

[Kelb_Panthera]

By getting up from the table, saying "Thanks for letting me play with you," and walking away. Either the DM is not prepared to handle that much power and the game's about to collapse or he is prepared to run a game on that level and the game's about to collapse because he's the only one.

To me, this isn't just a red flag. It's a great, horking stop-sign. YMMV.

[Illven]

In real life?

Let's see

1 +5 inherent to Strength
2 +5 inherent to Dexterity
3 +5 inherent to Constitution
4 +5 inherent to Intelligence
5 +5 inherent to Wisdom
6 +5 inherent to Charisma
7 +25000 gp
8 A magic headband that lets me cast as many spells at will.

Um...

I have 42 more wishes, halp.

[J-H]

IRL or in-game?

Either way, 30 wishes are probably going to go to inherent stat bonuses. Every stat is tied to skills, and there are spells or abilities that drain every stat; even if CHA is your dump stat, it's nice to have more resistance to being put in a coma by Ego Whips.

Beyond that?
Useful magic items (Ring of Evasion, Ring of Invisibility, Ring of X-Ray Vision, luckstone)
Permancied utility spells (See Invisibility, Darkvision, Comprehend Languages, Tongues, Greater Magic Fang, and possibly the magic-detectors)

That leaves 11 uses that require more context (class, level, surroundings).

[Honest Tiefling]

See, the catch is that you get no wishes...But it doesn't say anything about other people making wishes for you. So you need to basically become the ever-loved and always adored god-king of the Djinn and get them to give you some more wishes when you need them.

Time for the diplomacy skill!

[frogglesmash]

In real life?

Let's see

1 +5 inherent to Strength
2 +5 inherent to Dexterity
3 +5 inherent to Constitution
4 +5 inherent to Intelligence
5 +5 inherent to Wisdom
6 +5 inherent to Charisma
7 +25000 gp
8 A magic headband that lets me cast as many spells at will.

Um...

I have 42 more wishes, halp.

A +5 to one stat requires five wishes cast in quick succession, so really you've got 18 wishes left.

[enderlord99]

+5 INT, +5 WIS, one million GP.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

IRL, say something to the effect of the following:

"I'm imagining an item. This item is a thought bottle that is filled with enough experience to reach 1 XP away from level 22, that is already attuned to me, and I can retrieve this experience merely by touching it and willing it to be so. When I do so, I will gain everything that a gestalt D&D character of that level would have (including but not limited to ability scores, class abilities, racial abilities, all psionic powers as powers known, all arcane spells as psionic powers known, all divine spells as arcane spells as psionic powers known, and items granted by wealth by level, allocated as I desire), and not only do I get to choose where to allocate all of my resources, from level 1 up, I also get to decide on houserules as needed. I keep my memories, knowledge, and sense of self, but in addition, I gain the in-game knowledge that my ability scores, skills, and class and racial features give me, as well. I will call this item '[Maxi's]* Thought Bottle.' I wish for [Maxi's] Thought Bottle." Ten times.

And then I'd use wish to create a device staff containing every spell and power in the game that only I can use, and use the device's daily PAOs to turn myself into something with super-high Str/Dex/Con/Int, and that has some nice Ex and Nat abilities, and use further wishes to boost my stats. And since devices are nonmagical, the double-PAO is undispellable by any means (aside from, perhaps, another PAO). And then I'd use my Human-Blooded feat to count as Humanoid (Human) and cast an Extended alter self to turn myself into the sexiest man ever to walk the earth, past, present, or future.

After that, I'd probably wish for some high-cost magic item effects that are outside the range of a level 21 character's WBL, even via crafting. Not that there are many, but there are a few. Alternately, I'd wish to use further wishes at a later time of my choosing, just in case I need them. If need be, I'll use my wishes to produce manifestations of soul crystals of wish.

*Names have been changed to protect the innocent me.

[Jowgen]

To me, this isn't just a red flag. It's a great, horking stop-sign. YMMV.

Oh I'm simply curious what people would spend such a large number of free wishes on, considering that Wish is more or less the biggest blank slate, one size fits all solution to most of life's problems. The thing about not getting any more wishes was merely to prevent the "wish for more wishes" inevitablity.

I suppose the one thing I'm hoping to gleam from this thread is to get an idea of just how many wishes an adventuerer could possibly want in his non-combat lifetime. Kind of a "how many wishes is enough" type deal.

[Illven]

A +5 to one stat requires five wishes cast in quick succession, so really you've got 18 wishes left.

Okay. 18. HALP. :smalltongue:

[Aegis013]

Oh I'm simply curious what people would spend such a large number of free wishes on, considering that Wish is more or less the biggest blank slate, one size fits all solution to most of life's problems. The thing about not getting any more wishes was merely to prevent the "wish for more wishes" inevitablity.

I suppose the one thing I'm hoping to gleam from this thread is to get an idea of just how many wishes an adventuerer could possibly want in his non-combat lifetime. Kind of a "how many wishes is enough" type deal.

The answer ranges between 0 and NI depending on the character. You're not really going to get any kind of concrete answer with this exercise, especially without further parameters.

You'll probably either get answers like Maxi's which are "I use these 50 wishes to carefully craft a scenario where I am the god-wizard-king" and answers like mine where the person makes some assumptions like "If I have the power to use 50 wishes in a round, then I probably don't really need 50 wishes. Plus, I only have one round to expend them all? Better just think of something goofy and go for it before the six seconds expires and they're all lost forever."

[Esprit15]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/da/ce/25/dace25961300b109e117200a8ab23f82.jpg

[Bakkan]

+5 to each ability.
500,000 gp.
Always play it safe with wishes.

[Mystral]

+5 to each ability.
500,000 gp.
Always play it safe with wishes.

I'd be in the same crowd with the +5 to each ability.

In real life, I'd propably go for magic items (because where else would I get those?), in a game, the gold would do nicely. But first, revive everyone I would like to see revived.

[khadgar567]

in real life with that much power is basically down to slippery slope i mean you can ask next five supperlotto numbers which make you fing rich for your wildest subconscious dreams( 1. wish) then why the heck not grab your self a self sufficient island with worlds most beautiful woman's as your private harem(2. and 3. wish) after that some solid forged identities because you gonna needed( 4. wish) them to go incognito
okay its all that ı cane think right know before forgetting use one wish to get rid of one turn time limit then enjoy the paradise

[Inevitability]

You've got 50 wishes. Spending a few on clarity of mind so you know what to wish for seems rather wise.

[martixy]

I'd be in the same crowd with the +5 to each ability.

In real life, I'd propably go for magic items (because where else would I get those?), in a game, the gold would do nicely. But first, revive everyone I would like to see revived.

Nah... that's not the most optimal use.

In the case of so many wishes it pays to risk a few for a bigger reward.

Some at will spellcasting.
Say, a change of race. For example to Elan: effective immortality, self-sufficiency(no need for food and water any longer). And other potential fringe benefits: IRL, Int tends to decline with age, while for D&D races it increases.
I'd also take the Wakeful Mind graft(so I don't have to sleep anymore either).
Regeneration would be excellent, or Fast healing alternatively.
Remove disease in some way, shape or form.

And that's about it. Everything else I can achieve for myself, given enough time.

Any remaining wishes go to as many physics-defying abilities as I can get. Anything from Create Water to Time Stop.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I would get myself a floating island slash plane-shifting fortress slash sentient spelljammer. And inherent stat boosts, sure.

[Flickerdart]

IRL, say something to the effect of the following:

"I'm imagining an item..."

"The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment."

You get an empty thought bottle. gg.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... Id have to go the stat boosting path, but Id also boost my apperance stat (from book of naughty bits). So that takes care of 35 wishes. Then three or four wishes for gold. Finish up with either SLAs, reusable magic items, or good old fassion Spellstitching (of course then I wouldnt bother boosting my con). Saddly spellstitching cant get me any transmutation spells, but I could still get some good stuff.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

"The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment."

You get an empty thought bottle. gg.I've got 49 more wishes to go, each one of which is worth 5,000 XP (or 250,000 XP for 50 wishes' worth; that's pretty much exactly where I wanted to be anyway).

That, and gaining levels really, really fast is incredibly easy. As in, 1-to-epic by the end of the first week, if not before, easy. I'd just need access to the gaining-levels-via-XP-as-a-D&D-character paradigm.

[TheCreatorT]

+5 to each ability (Duh)
Revive all my dead teammates so I can kill them again for their stupidity.

Done.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Would you mind hiding that .gif in a spoiler tag? The code for that is:
[ spoiler ][ /spoiler ]
(without the spaces).

[TheBrassDuke]

IRL, say something to the effect of the following:

"I'm imagining an item. This item is a thought bottle that is filled with enough experience to reach 1 XP away from level 22, that is already attuned to me, and I can retrieve this experience merely by touching it and willing it to be so. When I do so, I will gain everything that a gestalt D&D character of that level would have (including but not limited to ability scores, class abilities, racial abilities, all psionic powers as powers known, all arcane spells as psionic powers known, all divine spells as arcane spells as psionic powers known, and items granted by wealth by level, allocated as I desire), and not only do I get to choose where to allocate all of my resources, from level 1 up, I also get to decide on houserules as needed. I keep my memories, knowledge, and sense of self, but in addition, I gain the in-game knowledge that my ability scores, skills, and class and racial features give me, as well. I will call this item '[Maxi's]* Thought Bottle.' I wish for [Maxi's] Thought Bottle." Ten times.

And then I'd use wish to create a device staff containing every spell and power in the game that only I can use, and use the device's daily PAOs to turn myself into something with super-high Str/Dex/Con/Int, and that has some nice Ex and Nat abilities, and use further wishes to boost my stats. And since devices are nonmagical, the double-PAO is undispellable by any means (aside from, perhaps, another PAO). And then I'd use my Human-Blooded feat to count as Humanoid (Human) and cast an Extended alter self to turn myself into the sexiest man ever to walk the earth, past, present, or future.

After that, I'd probably wish for some high-cost magic item effects that are outside the range of a level 21 character's WBL, even via crafting. Not that there are many, but there are a few. Alternately, I'd wish to use further wishes at a later time of my choosing, just in case I need them. If need be, I'll use my wishes to produce manifestations of soul crystals of wish.

*Names have been changed to protect the innocent me.

Yup, but too bad you can't technically wish Out-of-Character.

In my games, you'd have to come up with a "clever" way of even wishing for a single inherent bonus.

That entire wish of yours, OoC, would be thrown out.

(My campaign is Djinn-heavy)

EDIT: Apparently the word "clever" offended some people, so I put it in quotations. As well, I'll put right here that I don't screw over players, arbitrarily or otherwise. Never have, except when they've encountered an Efreeti or fiend (capable of granting wishes).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yup, but too bad you can't technically wish Out-of-Character. The OP never specified RL or in-game. I took the former.


In my games, you'd have to come up with a clever way of even wishing for a single inherent bonus.I see. You're one of those DMs that screws over players on wishes. Inherent bonuses are explicitly allowed by the spell, and requiring players to be "clever" (when, "I wish to be physically stronger, permanently" is hardly clever) to get even basic functionality from a spell when it's explicitly called out, is bad DMing, at best.


That entire wish of yours, OoC, would be thrown out.Of course it would be. Casting wish in-game and expecting to get RL benefits (which is not what's happening here), would be dumb.


(My campaign is Djinn-heavy)Don't care. Arbitrarily screwing over your players has no place here. Begone, bad houserules!

[Andezzar]

"The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment."

You get an empty thought bottle. gg.You butchered that quote and thus twisted its meaning. This only applies to wishes that go beyond beyond the safe list. A magic item of arbitrarily high value is on the safe list. So that thought bottle is safe.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
[...]
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
[...]
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

[ExLibrisMortis]

In my games, you'd have to come up with a clever way of even wishing for a single inherent bonus.
You realize that wish doesn't require you to actually spell out in-character what you want, right? Just like a fireball, you specify target and objective OOC. Ruling otherwise is just arbitrarily blocking your players, especially when it's about inherent bonuses, which are just about the most balanced thing you can do with wish.

[Flickerdart]

You butchered that quote and thus twisted its meaning. This only applies to wishes that go beyond beyond the safe list. A magic item of arbitrarily high value is on the safe list. So that thought bottle is safe.
A bottle is safe. That bottle is not a listed magic item.

[Andezzar]

A bottle is safe. That bottle is not a listed magic item.The safe choices do not restrict magic items to those from a certain list, nor do they restrict them to a certain value. Unless you can prove that the aforementioned item is not a magic item it is a safe wish.

[BearonVonMu]

It's been said before, it'll be said again. +5 to all stats.
After that, I'd make a few wishes for a pile of gold, followed by a wish to have the cost of a slotless item of at-will Alter Fortune, Greater Restoration, Revivify, Polymorph Any Object Dimension Door, and Greater Teleport deducted from my pile and replaced by the item. A wish for a business transaction, but one that would not be easily arranged.

[Flickerdart]

The safe choices do not restrict magic items to those from a certain list, nor do they restrict them to a certain value. Unless you can prove that the aforementioned item is not a magic item it is a safe wish.
"I wish for a ring that turns me into a god" is a safe wish, in your opinion?

[Andezzar]

"I wish for a ring that turns me into a god" is a safe wish, in your opinion?Unfortunately yes. There is a way around it, by classifying such an item as an artifact. Those cannot be created anymore as per the rules for artifacts.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Unfortunately yes. There is a way around it, by classifying such an item as an artifact. Those cannot be created anymore as per the rules for artifacts.As opposed to mine, which is basically a regular magic primed and prepped for its primary purpose.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I wish for a deck of many things.

Now I wish for all the undesirable cards to be taken out of it. Or better yet, I'll just wish it so that I can choose whether a card takes effect after I see it. This goes for cards other people draw as well.

The DM will probably note that I didn't specify on whom the cards would take effect. But I'm fine with all the good stuff going to enemies really. More XP for me.

[khadgar567]

I wish for a deck of many things.

Now I wish for all the undesirable cards to be taken out of it. Or better yet, I'll just wish it so that I can choose whether a card takes effect after I see it. This goes for cards other people draw as well.

up this I wish every card is vizier card

[Andezzar]

I wish for a deck of many things.This is a minor artifact and thus not on the list of safe wishes.


Now I wish for all the undesirable cards to be taken out of it. Or better yet, I'll just wish it so that I can choose whether a card takes effect after I see it. This goes for cards other people draw as well.

The DM will probably note that I didn't specify on whom the cards would take effect. But I'm fine with all the good stuff going to enemies really. More XP for me.This wish isn't safe either.


up this I wish every card is vizier cardGood luck convincing your DM that a magic item made up of one effect of an artifact is not an artifact.

[khadgar567]

Good luck convincing your DM that a magic item made up of one effect of an artifact is not an artifact.

hey knowledge is power and its the safest power of them all

[untrippable]

Wish number one will be for Psychic Asylum to be cast immediately, so I have some time to think about the other 49 wishes. Six seconds for fifty wishes means I'll need to compact my ideas. I'd write down exactly what I want each wish to accomplish while within the asylum, then upon exiting, wish for that list to be enacted.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you want to do that with a DoMT, wish for the nearest unattended full deck to be transported to you (as it can do the same with creatures; I imagine it can do so with objects, as well), and a Heward's handy haversack, followed by all of your other wishes. Activate the deck, stuff it in the sack, and announce which cards you want to draw as you draw them. The haversack will put those cards on top, which you can then draw as you please.

[khadgar567]

Wish number one will be for Psychic Asylum to be cast immediately, so I have some time to think about the other 49 wishes. Six seconds for fifty wishes means I'll need to compact my ideas. I'd write down exactly what I want each wish to accomplish while within the asylum, then upon exiting, wish for that list to be enacted.

you might want to metamagic the asylum so you have more time to think on things you want to wish

[MaxiDuRaritry]

you might want to metamagic the asylum so you have more time to think on things you want to wishHe has at least 15 minutes. Do it right, and you won't need much more. After all, 30 of the wishes are already accounted for. Though, yes, more time is definitely better.

[Gallade]

1: Obligatory wish for all subsequent wishes to be interpreted in a way that is beneficial and in no way harmful to me.
2: At-Will alter self
3: Teleport SLA
4 through 7: Four completely loyal henchmen: a bodyguard, a healer, an artisan and a bard.
8: A contract with a powerful outsider, bound to cast True Resurrection at a location of my choice whenever I die as long as I provide the material component.
9 through 11: Material components for said resurrections
11 through 13: An Instant Fortress and two spares.
14: Leadership bonus feat.
15: Ownership of a plot of land.
16: Building of a small fortress on said plot of land, already furnished.
17 through 20: A vast enough treasure to fill the chambers in the fortress.
21 through 30: Magic items for every stat and some utilities.
31 through 40: A weapon and a suit of armor as good as possible for me and the four henchmen.
41: A library with as much knowledge as possible inside. Need to know anything, just have the Bard get in there and take 20 on Knowledge.
42: A full forging and crafting room for the artisan to do his work in.
43: A completely loyal and powerful creature to guard the fortress both when I'm gone and when I'm inside (Masterwork adamantine golem, silver dragon, storm giant)?
44-46: As many representatives of two or three races of exploitable creatures (kobolds, goblins, humans) to work in the fortress and serve as soldiers and workers
47: Become instantly best friends with the ruler of the nation I reside in
48 and 49: Charm person and Geas/Quest as SLAs
50: Realize I'm now the BBEG.

[Andezzar]

If you want to do that with a DoMT, wish for the nearest unattended full deck to be transported to you (as it can do the same with creatures; I imagine it can do so with objects, as well), and a Heward's handy haversack, followed by all of your other wishes. Activate the deck, stuff it in the sack, and announce which cards you want to draw as you draw them. The haversack will put those cards on top, which you can then draw as you please.That is an awesome trick, should a DM ever be so fooish as to introduce the DoMT.

[Quertus]

For my characters, it would vary. Anything from inherent bonuses, items, knowledge, status, to "don't take my ability to wish away from me" x50 to "... how does this work?"

For myself, I'd probably want to start with the meta. So a few wishes like...

To have my wishes be adjudicated by someone at least as benevolent and lenient as I am (but with a "spirit of the wish" interpretation).

To know the precise outcome of each individual wish I come up with, before I make the wish.

To know what the smartest and wisest beings would wish for in my situation.

To have my remaining wishes converted to Miracles?

I'd make a few modifications...

Elan
+5 int
+5 con

Then start to work on pleasure...

<fantasy #117>
<fantasy #242>
<fantasy 0>

... and power:

To gain experience and level as a gestalt psion // paragon (tristalt // homebrew shapeshifter?) (quadstalt beholder mage?)

To simultaneously gain xp and level as a d20 WoD Mage.

To simultaneously gain xp and abilities (point based, they don't level) as an old-school WoD Mage.

To simultaneously gain karma, good karma, and abilities as a shadowrun full mage.

To simultaneously gain xp and abilities as an original edition paradox (homebrew) caster.

Then comes the items.

Under me, I could combine 3 wishes to get two +6 items.

But if I were under 3.5 RAW wishes, well, I'd wish for the truly awesome stuff.

Nothing infinite, not even an item with all the beneficial abilities of all published D&D items (although that would be pretty cool).

But, say, a living metal light sabre, made sentient by a Tremere ritual that bound the soul of Yoda to it. Because of its precog abilities, the blade will never cut anything I don't want cut (which would usually include myself - a very important safety feature when learning to use such a dangerous weapon, IMO).

Maybe a 10-point WoD relic that combined my 10 favorite rotes.

A true omni tool - a shard of Dream that can become anything.

Cool stuff like that.

And, if I had wishes left over... Well, I'm sure those smartest and wisest beings would have given me a few ideas. :smallwink:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

"I wish for a Supernatural manifestation of the soul crystal power (affected by the Sanctum Spell feat) containing the wish spell, with a manifester level of 17 and full power points." Repeat 49 more times.

Congratulations. You've just doubled the number of wishes you get, and allowed yourself to use them at your leisure.

[TheBrassDuke]

The OP never specified RL or in-game. I took the former.

I see. You're one of those DMs that screws over players on wishes. Inherent bonuses are explicitly allowed by the spell, and requiring players to be "clever" (when, "I wish to be physically stronger, permanently" is hardly clever) to get even basic functionality from a spell when it's explicitly called out, is bad DMing, at best.

Of course it would be. Casting wish in-game and expecting to get RL benefits (which is not what's happening here), would be dumb.

Don't care. Arbitrarily screwing over your players has no place here. Begone, bad houserules!

You are wrong on each account, except for the first sentence. In that case, you are correct. The OP didn't mention RL or in-game.

As for your next points, allow me to retort. I have never screw over a player for a wish, unless I am DMing an Efreet encounter or some form of fiend; It would be a crime not to.

Now when I say "clever", please bear in mind that at my table, we are more role play than roll play, and we value fluff over crunch. I abide by every rule I know and learn, and allow players to get away with certain things on a case-by-case basis. That being said, while inherent bonuses may be in the book, I'm not allowing the Character to state that he wishes a +1 in said attribute. At our table, we're more often than not in-character. I'm simply looking at it like this: if you couldn't wish for something IC, then you can't wish for it at all. And that isn't including the inherent bonuses. An example only.

Your third paragraph is outrageously silly and unfounded. Don't put words in my mouth, or even ideas. They aren't very good.

And lastly, I do not screw over players. Thanks.


You realize that wish doesn't require you to actually spell out in-character what you want, right? Just like a fireball, you specify target and objective OOC. Ruling otherwise is just arbitrarily blocking your players, especially when it's about inherent bonuses, which are just about the most balanced thing you can do with wish.

Again. A mere example, nothing else. But you see what I mean. There have been discussions on this matter for ages. Is it because of the example you're in disagreement? I should have used another. -_-

[ExLibrisMortis]

Again. A mere example, nothing else. But you see what I mean. There have been discussions on this matter for ages. Is it because of the example you're in disagreement? I should have used another. -_-
I understand that you don't allow "I wish for +1 int" as in-character statement - I wouldn't do that either. It's this principle I have a problem with:

[...] if you couldn't wish for something IC, then you can't wish for it at all. [...]
Unless your game has literally no crunch at all (which is fine, but we're talking D&D), you have to be able to go OOC to make the details of your actions known, be they wish castings or other things. The mechanical actions and parameters, the 'crunchy things', are all OOC, after all. If your character says "I will be stronger, faster, smarter!", and the player says "I cast wish", you should probably just ask what they're looking for, and assume that the character's private thoughts (which are used in focusing the wish) match whatever the mechanical desires of the player are.

In any case, it's probably time for me to stop arguing the point (since you are, presumably, running a good game, so what am I accomplishing?), so let's get back to '50 wishes'.


Wish #39: My flying fortress will have a river running across it from bow to stern, with a waterfall in the middle.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You are wrong on each account, except for the first sentence. In that case, you are correct. The OP didn't mention RL or in-game.

As for your next points, allow me to retort. I have never screw over a player for a wish, unless I am DMing an Efreet encounter or some form of fiend; It would be a crime not to.You specifically said that you screw players over for their wishes unless they're "clever," even for stock-standard uses of the spell. I'm pretty sure that counts as screwing players over for no good reason. Yes, it's possible to subvert the wish if the one granting it is antagonistic, but nobody ever said anything whatsoever about antagonistic forces before you said that you would screw players over on their wishes. Meany genies have nothing to do with anything in this conversation.


Now when I say "clever", please bear in mind that at my table, we are more role play than roll play, and we value fluff over crunch.There is nothing "clever" needed to ask to be stronger, or more agile, or tougher, or more intelligent, or wiser, or more charismatic. "I wish to be stronger/more agile/tougher/smarter/wiser/more charismatic." That's all that's needed, and screwing players over, as you explicitly said you do, is needlessly antagonistic. Why even have the spell if you force players to jump through hoops even for balanced and reasonable wishes?


I abide by every rule I know and learn,Except for ones regarding wish, apparently.


and allow players to get away with certain things on a case-by-case basis. That being said, while inherent bonuses may be in the book, I'm not allowing the Character to state that he wishes a +1 in said attribute. At our table, we're more often than not in-character. I'm simply looking at it like this: if you couldn't wish for something IC, then you can't wish for it at all. And that isn't including the inherent bonuses. An example only. I, IRL, can make wishes for mechanical things in game and make them sound feasible. I mentioned some above. And yes, characters know about things like levels and HD and skill ranks and feats, because they have mechanics that interact with such things. Appraise can tell you a creature's level. A spellcaster knows what his caster level is (and if you have a problem imagining this, think about durations; a 3rd level wizard's alter self spell lasts for exactly 30 minutes, and when he levels up to 4, it jumps to exactly 40 minutes; this is a measurable metric, and so are lots of other mechanical bits of the game). You've got mechanics that swap out skill ranks and feats. You can retrain levels. You've got spells that only work against creatures with under so many hit points. You spend XP when crafting and casting spells. All of those are quantifiable variables, just like the passage of time and the force of gravity are in our world. You don't like it? Don't play D&D.


Your third paragraph is outrageously silly and unfounded. Don't put words in my mouth, or even ideas. They aren't very good.You're the one who said that I can't wish for IRL things OoC. Which means I should make in-game wishes and expect out-of-game effects. It's the only logically consistent conclusion. You don't want me gleaning that result from what you said? Then don't say it that way.


And lastly, I do not screw over players. Thanks.Except you said that you refuse to let characters have even the basic effects of a wish spell without making them jump through hoops and dance to your tune. If a player casts wish, not letting him have the explicitly stated effects is screwing him out of 5,000 XP and a 9th level spell slot and giving him nothing in return. It's pretty clear, because that's what you said you'd do.

[TheBrassDuke]

Unless your game has literally no crunch at all (which is fine, but we're talking D&D), you have to be able to go OOC to make the details of your actions known, be they wish castings or other things. The mechanical actions and parameters, the 'crunchy things', are all OOC, after all. If your character says "I will be stronger, faster, smarter!", and the player says "I cast wish", you should probably just ask what they're looking for, and assume that the character's private thoughts (which are used in focusing the wish) match whatever the mechanical desires of the player are.

There is plenty of crunch in our game, but the players and I prefer to handle matters IC more often than not. Certain OoC things, however, cannot be used in a wish. Such as Experience Points. That's a better example. It makes no sense, and I wish I could agree on this, but I don't think the Wish takes your private thoughts into account. I believe in the mechanics, a Wish takes careful wording.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There is plenty of crunch in our game, but the players and I prefer to handle matters IC more often than not. Certain OoC things, however, cannot be used in a wish. Such as Experience Points. That's a better example. It makes no sense, and I wish I could agree on this, but I don't think the Wish takes your private thoughts into account. I believe in the mechanics, a Wish takes careful wording.Except XP is a quantifiable variable that makes up these characters' lives. XP are spent in crafting and spell creation and casting spells. You can spend them, gain them, lose them, restore them. You can even store them in a bottle. You can also measure how much effort it takes to go from having your alter self spell go from 30 minutes to 40 using the scientific method and end up with numbers looking remarkably similar to the XP tables in the book. After all, magic item creation involves a specific XP to GP ratio, and that can be measured by observation. Like I said, D&D mechanics are like our physics. We can measure acceleration and fluid dynamics and all sorts of other things, despite them not being physical objects, for instance; I'm sure D&D characters can do the same thing with the rules of their world.

[TheBrassDuke]

Snipped all the unnecessary bits.

Never once did I say that I screw over my players. You're making assumptions based solely on some sort of bias you're holding back, I'm sure. So thank you again, but do not continue putting words in my mouth.

Also, I'd like to point out that was a bad example. Obviously "I wish to be physically stronger" would warrant the bonus to strength. I already said that.

You are literally harping over phantom offenses, and I urge you to calm down. There is literally no one with your counter argument out there. Just ghosts. Please re-read what I've said above, and you'll see. This time, though, don't interpret it with that bias hiding in the back of your mind. Read it as it is written. Okay? Right now you are treading into crazy territory, and I'm not looking to be wrongfully villainized by the likes of you. I don't even know you.

Edit:


Except XP is a quantifiable variable that makes up these characters' lives. XP are spent in crafting and spell creation and casting spells. You can spend them, gain them, lose them, restore them. You can even store them in a bottle. You can also measure how much effort it takes to go from having your alter self spell from 30 minutes to 40 using the scientific method and end up with numbers looking remarkably similar to the XP tables in the book. After all, magic item creation involves a specific XP to GP ratio, and that can be measured by observation. Like I said, D&D mechanics are like our physics. We can measure acceleration and fluid dynamics and all sorts of other things, despite them not being physical objects, for instance; I'm sure D&D characters can do the same thing with the rules of their world.

Fair enough, but we see things a tad differently. And that's all I'm going to say here.

Edited again: Please don't quote me. I'm not following the discussion anymore.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Never once did I say that I screw over my players. You're making assumptions based solely on some sort of bias you're holding back, I'm sure. So thank you again, but do not continue putting words in my mouth.

Also, I'd like to point out that was a bad example. Obviously "I wish to be physically stronger" would warrant the bonus to strength. I already said that.

You are literally harping over phantom offenses, and I urge you to calm down. There is literally no one with your counter argument out there. Just ghosts. Please re-read what I've said above, and you'll see. This time, though, don't interpret it with that bias hiding in the back of your mind. Read it as it is written. Okay? Right now you are treading into crazy territory, and I'm not looking to be wrongfully villainized by the likes of you. I don't even know you.Just because someone doesn't know how to phrase something in-character doesn't mean they should lose 5,000 XP and a 9th level spell. Saying "I want to add a point to my ability score" should be fine, even if the player doesn't quite know how to phrase it. Do you make your wizard players memorize the intricate details equivalent to those scribed in a spellbook in order to let them cast spells, or only let players with Mensa-level IQs play wizards? I doubt it. It's a similar situation here. Just because they can't do something IRL doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to do them in-game.

[TheBrassDuke]

I don't make them lose the Exp or the spell for not knowing how to phrase their wish. I do, however, work them through it if they need help. That is how we play our game. I never botch the spell or have it wasted. Like I've said. We do things rather differently in our campaigns. I don't screw players over, for any reason other than an Efreet or Fiend. And even then, my players craft wonderful wishes, so it's rarely an issue.

Slightly related, no. I don't make them memorize complex spell components. They do it on their own, and it's awesome to see what they come up with.

[Andezzar]

There is plenty of crunch in our game, but the players and I prefer to handle matters IC more often than not. Certain OoC things, however, cannot be used in a wish. Such as Experience Points. That's a better example.Whether you call them experience points or not the characters know that there is a quantifiable property of characters that serves the function of experience points. An identify spell used on a bog standard thought bottle or any scroll of a spell with an XP cost for example will give that information in character.

It makes no sense, and I wish I could agree on this, but I don't think the Wish takes your private thoughts into account. I believe in the mechanics, a Wish takes careful wording.So how do you carefully word all the properties of a mundane item in the time it takes for a single standard action i.e. less than six seconds? Just take a mundane sword for example. What type of point, blade length and shape does it have? What is the hilt form? What type of cross guard is used Which alloy is used? I could go on about the details of that item. I doubt you can formulate all the relevant details in under six seconds.

[Eisfalken]

For reasons too fantasical to imagine, you suddenly find yourself with a one time opportunity to use Wish as a SLA 50 times in a single round. After this, no more wishes or miracles will ever be available to you ever again.

How do you proceed?

Depends.

If the DM doesn't houserule the XP issue with wish SLA? +5 inherent to all stats, and a ring of quickened wish that can be used at-will. See, SLAs don't have XP cost. Guess what wish does? It can make pretty much any magic item... without XP cost (since the SPELL is what would normally charge you XP). Congratulations, I now have an ring that lets me swift-action anything I want at any XP level (since the amount of XP that the ring can be made from is "infinite", so is the amount available to the ring for anything I want, spells or items).

But... let's be nice. Let's pretend we're being "reasonable" about this. Fair enough: +5 inherent to all stats, reincarnate as an elan immediately and automatically (emulates a 4th level divine spell, slightly alters the outcome and the requirement to be dead, should be more than doable for most circumstances), and a stronghold with an income source with base cost of worth 450,000 gp (based on 19 wishes used for a 25,000 gp mundane item, the income pulls in 4,500 gp/year).

Yeah. That second one would pretty much do it right there. Big stat bonuses, practical immortality, and a big house that gives me money every year. Still good to go on adventures, but pretty much every "need" is met: elans don't have to eat or drink, the house guarantees I can pay for things I want/need. I still have a reason to get out there and do stuff, but I don't sweat none of it.