AngryDM's Fighting Spirit: feedback?

[Laserlight]

If you've tried Angry's "Fighting Spirit" modification to hit points, what's your opinion of it?

[AvatarVecna]

If you've tried Angry's "Fighting Spirit" modification to hit points, what's your opinion of it?

For the benefit of those of us who don't follow AngryDM very closely, would you mind linking to it, or listing the modification here?

[treecko]

http://theangrygm.com/fighting-spirit/

basically gives a layer of hit points below the normal ones but above death, you live long but take penalties.

[Laserlight]

http://theangrygm.com/fighting-spirit/

You have one pool of HP to represent morale, dodging, luck, stamina etc; once that pool is gone, a) you're at disadvantage to attack and b) you take damage to the pool that represents the meat. There's more to it, but that's the gist.

[georgie_leech]

Worth noting that it makes a rather big difference to the Champion, however the regen is ruled. If it recovers HP, That's a rather big nerf in terms of effectiveness. If, on the other hand, it applies to FS at all, they become this death defying maniac that can finally live up to all those movie scenes where it's the Final Showdown and the Hero(ine) is bloody and haggard and all but beaten but just won't. Flipping. QUIT. And so carries on to save the day.

[Laserlight]

Worth noting that it makes a rather big difference to the Champion, however the regen is ruled. If it recovers HP, That's a rather big nerf in terms of effectiveness. If, on the other hand, it applies to FS at all, they become this death defying maniac that can finally live up to all those movie scenes where it's the Final Showdown and the Hero(ine) is bloody and haggard and all but beaten but just won't. Flipping. QUIT. And so carries on to save the day.

Thanks for mentioning that; I hadn't thought of it, as our fighters until now have all been battle masters. But we have a champion starting next week, and...Regen will work on Spirit.

[NewDM]

Really to me its just too complicated. I have enough to track without having to worry about another layer of hp.

A better simpler system is that once you hit 0 you gain a level of exhaustion, but are still able to act. You also roll death saves normally. Each time you fail a death save you gain another level of exhaustion. 6 levels of exhaustion and you are dead, 3 failed death saves and you are dead. If you 'stabilize' you stop rolling death saves and thus don't gain any more exhaustion.


Works perfectly in my games. Players try their best not to go down to 0 hp.

[Toadkiller]

I like it, though it is complex. Anything that adds some need for tactics would be a boost.

[Renewal]

Really to me its just too complicated. I have enough to track without having to worry about another layer of hp.

A better simpler system is that once you hit 0 you gain a level of exhaustion, but are still able to act. You also roll death saves normally. Each time you fail a death save you gain another level of exhaustion. 6 levels of exhaustion and you are dead, 3 failed death saves and you are dead. If you 'stabilize' you stop rolling death saves and thus don't gain any more exhaustion.


Works perfectly in my games. Players try their best not to go down to 0 hp.

Agreed; the Spirit/HP split is definitely just a bit much in terms of excess bookkeeping. Still, your method seems a bit harsh, given the difficulty of removing levels of exhaustion. But that's just my personal preference.

Personally, I think the most useful takeaway is the Dispirited condition, which immediately limits a PC's offensive capability, but still leaves them capable of contributing to the battle; it should mix up the standard dynamic of a fight a little. I think if I were to implement it in my games, I'd add a simple Vitality tracker (probably keyed off CON, like 2 times CON mod, or some X + CON mod); when a PC is reduced to 0 HP, they become Dispirited, and every hit from then on would then subtract 1 from Vitality, knocking them unconscious as normal at 0 Vitality. So being knocked to 0 HP is still a bit of an "oh ****" moment, but PCs would have more agency in their recovery rather than just lying on the floor waiting for help, or could actively begin planning an organized retreat.

[Kane0]

Could also change health to have two halves: Meat (HP) and Luck/Skill/Morale (Vigor). Figure hit die as normal, the first half is vigor and the second is HP.
When you run out of vigor you are bloodied (condition does nothing by itself but enables all sorts of nasty things you might want to add into your game) and when you run out of HP you are dying (death saves).
Healing restores vigor first, then HP when your Vigor is full.

Pretty simple, not much math involved.

[Kryx]

The article is a huge wall of text with pretty simple idea - double hp with disadvantage below half. It has some annoying specifics that I wouldn't recommend people follow (no flow over).

I don't see the benefit unless you want PCs to have double effective HP (but less effective in their second half).

[Malifice]

Hit points already represents luck, stamina, the will to live, parry and dodging ability (and overal fighting skills) experience and so forth (in addition to meat) all in the one pool (with the last hit being the solid blow that drops you).

Looks like an extra level of complexity that I dont want or need.

[Fighting_Ferret]

The idea was to add a level of uh-oh to let players be able to know when to possibly move away from a bad situation, as the current system favors staying and attacking because you are just as effective at 1 hp as you are at max and then at 0 you fall unconscious. It is a race to kill the enemy before he kills you. It also spoke about not rolling death saves for everyone to see, because then everyone knew that they didn't have to rush in to aid a "fallen" ally until they failed 2 death saves, which is a level of meta-gaming that shouldn't be allowed.

It may be clunky or overly complex, but I think it's a step in the right direction.

[DragonBaneDM]

Hit points already represents luck, stamina, the will to live, parry and dodging ability (and overal fighting skills) experience and so forth (in addition to meat) all in the one pool (with the last hit being the solid blow that drops you).

Looks like an extra level of complexity that I dont want or need.

He addresses that:


And that is why D&D keeps trying to force this idea down our throat that HP are a combination of physical health, the ability defend oneself effectively, tenacity, pain tolerance, and probably deleted magic too. And honestly, that doesn’t make sense either. Because tenacity and a basic knowledge of parrying are no use when you fall into lava. And yet, the 20th level fighter can survive the fall into lava for longer than the 1st level fighter.

It's a poor example, because I'm a big fan of the lava (http://www.scratchfactory.com/Resources/LavaBanners/LavaRules.pdf) rules I already use, but overall I like this sentiment when you apply it to say, a pool of acid or something less deadly from a few hundred meters away.

I was a fan of Iron Kingdom's hit points tracking, I found it novel but complicated. It's a death spiral, much like Shadowrun's hit point tracking, which I think is really cool, but does require a lot of bookkeeping. This seems pretty light in comparison.

My one party always converses/complains about rocket tag and optimizing offense over defense to cross the finish line first. We're breaking 4E open for tweaks after 6 years of playing it and this could be yet another cool homebrew addition for us.

As for my 5E game, I might end up implementing this, but I'm not sure yet. On the one hand, I'm still pulling my punches on Medium encounters 5 levels into the game, but on the other they're noticeably more resilient and I lack the experience with 5E that I have with 4E.

I've forwarded this article to my DM and my friends who run games, but I'm not going to try anything until I see some reports come back positive, either from you guys or from my players/DM.

EDIT: The one huge issue I can see with this is how I've become used to my characters and their teammates winning fights while everyone is at low hit points. Your typical DnD character functions at low hit points quite often and then wins their tough fights by attacking or casting spells. Unless monsters follow a similar rule or encounter difficulty is scaled back, characters might end up losing and maybe even dying more as a result of not being able to finish hard fights with monsters who don't suffer disadvantage at low hit points.

[Laserlight]

The one huge issue I can see with this is how I've become used to my characters and their teammates winning fights while everyone is at low hit points. Your typical DnD character functions at low hit points quite often and then wins their tough fights by attacking or casting spells. Unless monsters follow a similar rule or encounter difficulty is scaled back, characters might end up losing and maybe even dying more as a result of not being able to finish hard fights with monsters who don't suffer disadvantage at low hit points.

Not an issue at all. Our 8th level fighter had 76hp, and she still has 76hp. If she goes through that, instead of falling unconscious (and the player pulling out her phone to play games), she can still act (with disadvantage to attacks, but can still Dodge or Disengage just fine), and any further hits apply to her pool of 31body. So the PCs are somewhat tougher than they were before.

Several of the previous commenters clearly haven't understood Angry's proposal. It's just a separate (and smaller) pool of additional HP. Damage and healing don't carry over, so there's no more arithmetic than normal, any anyone who can't keep track of a second pool is someone who won't be able to keep track of spell slots.

[INDYSTAR188]

The article is a huge wall of text with pretty simple idea - double hp with disadvantage below half. It has some annoying specifics that I wouldn't recommend people follow (no flow over).

I don't see the benefit unless you want PCs to have double effective HP (but less effective in their second half).

I'm a fan of AngryDM's work in general, especially his 4E stuff. I haven't used any of the 5E mods yet. I agree though, there are often huge walls of narrative to read through in order to get to the point, which I find a barrier to using the material (there's already a ton for a DM to read just in session prep).

Regarding this method, I think its a bit too convoluted and so far PC's hitting 0hp hasn't been a big deal but has happened a few times.

[Commodore]

It's mostly just to aid in the mental abstraction side of things, tbh.

[Kryx]

It is a race to kill the enemy before he kills you.
And how does his system change it? This system only extends the race with you being half as effective in the second half.
It's still a race.

[georgie_leech]

And how does his system change it? This system only extends the race with you being half as effective in the second half.
It's still a race.

Half as effective on offense, but defensive actions like retreating or dodging are still just as effective. It's to encourage less "RAAGH MUST ONLY DO OFFENSE" like the baseline rules encourage.

Incidentally, it's only double HP at first level, and given how squishy everyone is at that level I can't say it's a bad thing. At all other levels actual HP is less that FS.

[DragonBaneDM]

Not an issue at all. Our 8th level fighter had 76hp, and she still has 76hp. If she goes through that, instead of falling unconscious (and the player pulling out her phone to play games), she can still act (with disadvantage to attacks, but can still Dodge or Disengage just fine), and any further hits apply to her pool of 31body. So the PCs are somewhat tougher than they were before.


Right! The PC is more survivable and there's a layer of fun "don't die!" gameplay involved. I get that.

But the fight still has to end.

If that fighter is dispirited and unable to attack effectively and the rest of the team is up and running, they're probably able to push back the tide and triumph while their frontline friend fights for their life.

But what about at the end of the boss-dragon fight, when everyone's gotten hit by multiple breath weapons, taken some claw damage, and everyone at or close to everyone is dispirited? All of a sudden that last 30 or so HP on the dragon is very daunting, and even though it would really only take one round of focused attacks and remaining spells to bring it down, instead the party ends up taking their round healing, dodging, and buffing, during which the dragon is free to recharge its breath weapon, focus on whoever didn't get healing, have minions put the PCs in a bad position, and generally keep doing evil dragonny things.

Another possible issue a friend of mine brought up: what happens when the Rogue gets shot to dispirited right at the start of the fight and just ends up being useless while other combatants get to use their cool abilities? The rogue just kind of sits there, weakened, and waits to be healed all because of a few unlucky rolls.

I think it's a cool system! I'm probably gonna use it. But I worry about these scenarios.

[Fighting_Ferret]

It also limits healing options for the day, as you can replenish either HP or SP on any healing effect at one time, not both. Also of note is that HP don't heal over short rests... they actively require resources, but also don't offer penalties, as long as SP is above 1.

The idea is to introduce a sign that players are in distress, but not completely out of options from 0 to negative max HP...

In the last example... if the Rogue lost all their SP and was down to their HP pool... they can still do things... in the current system...they would be on the ground really doing nothing, as they would be unconscious.

If the entire party is down to their HP against the boss dragon... they are all still in the fight... as the fighter is in distress instead of unconscious. Sure they have disadvantage, but that's just it... you are making them think about things other than hit, hit, hit, and keep on hitting... if you fall you have 1 to 2 rounds before we bring you back up, where the enemy will ignore you while you are helpless on the ground. The new system allows the fighter to get the hell out of dodge, while the others step up to take on the boss.

As was mentioned... you are not doubling your HP where half of it is a disadvantage... you get SP in the form of what you would normally get at every level... you only get HP at level 1, 4, 8, 12,16, 19 and you only get half your HD+CON modifier, except at level 1, where you get the full HD +CON modifier.

[Kryx]

you only get HP at level 1, 4, 8, 12,16, 19 and you only get half your HD+CON modifier, except at level 1, where you get the full HD +CON modifier.
So simple! /s

But seriously, I did say it was a wall of text. If he wanted his rules interpreted correctly he should've made them easy to read, not hidden in thousands of words prefaced by five thousand words. This article has literally 6,019 words with very little formatting beyond paragraphs and one block denoting distressed.
It's horribly formatted for conveying ideas.

I'd rather go with some kind of bloodied system that uses 1 hp pool, not multiple hp pools with different names. Add hp if you really think PCs are too weak - which is exactly what this system does. It doesn't add double like I said, but about 20% more.

[Fighting_Ferret]

I'll definitely give you the wall of text argument. The bloodied system should/could work.

*Please note above that I said angry's proposed system is complex and that it was a step in the right direction...not that the system as explained was the be all end all.*

[georgie_leech]

It also limits healing options for the day, as you can replenish either HP or SP on any healing effect at one time, not both. Also of note is that HP don't heal over short rests... they actively require resources, but also don't offer penalties, as long as SP is above 1.

The idea is to introduce a sign that players are in distress, but not completely out of options from 0 to negative max HP...

In the last example... if the Rogue lost all their SP and was down to their HP pool... they can still do things... in the current system...they would be on the ground really doing nothing, as they would be unconscious.

If the entire party is down to their HP against the boss dragon... they are all still in the fight... as the fighter is in distress instead of unconscious. Sure they have disadvantage, but that's just it... you are making them think about things other than hit, hit, hit, and keep on hitting... if you fall you have 1 to 2 rounds before we bring you back up, where the enemy will ignore you while you are helpless on the ground. The new system allows the fighter to get the hell out of dodge, while the others step up to take on the boss.

As was mentioned... you are not doubling your HP where half of it is a disadvantage... you get SP in the form of what you would normally get at every level... you only get HP at level 1, 4, 8, 12,16, 19 and you only get half your HD+CON modifier, except at level 1, where you get the full HD +CON modifier.

Right, meaning it might encourage the PC's to retreat and try something else, unless they really; really need the enemy dead right now. Likewise, a (non-metagaming) enemy might flee despite being this close to finishing off the PC's but pain hurts and it isn't worth it to keep fighting. For instance, if a hungry pack of wolves gets their proverbial noses bloody, they'd likely flee rather than kill themselves trying to take down obviously dangerous prey. At least, that's how I've run enemies; taking into account their goals and perspective.

Side note, the extra HP gets added whenever a straight classed character gets an ASI, unless they have extra. If that's too fiddly, it could also be tied to Proficiency increases.

[Sillybird99]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Vitality_and_Wound_Points

I was gonna try Angry's system until someone pointed me toward the starwars wound system. I think it makes a lot of sense. I plan on using a hybrid of starwars and 5e keeping the death saves from 5e, only regain vitality points on shortrest. Long rest you can roll 1 hit die for wound healing. I still gotta work some things out before the campaign starts so it is a little simpler and crit are less a tad less deadly, especially if none of my characters have magical healing.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hit points already represents luck, stamina, the will to live, parry and dodging ability (and overal fighting skills) experience and so forth (in addition to meat) all in the one pool (with the last hit being the solid blow that drops you).

Looks like an extra level of complexity that I dont want or need. Read the article a few months ago and this was my reaction as well.

[Laserlight]

Note that my original question was to get your opinion IF YOU HAVE TRIED IT. If you've tried something similar, such as the Star Wars system, I want to know how it went. But "I don't understand it" or "gosh, Angry sure is wordy" aren't particularly pertinent.

[Theodoxus]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Vitality_and_Wound_Points

I was gonna try Angry's system until someone pointed me toward the starwars wound system. I think it makes a lot of sense. I plan on using a hybrid of starwars and 5e keeping the death saves from 5e, only regain vitality points on shortrest. Long rest you can roll 1 hit die for wound healing. I still gotta work some things out before the campaign starts so it is a little simpler and crit are less a tad less deadly, especially if none of my characters have magical healing.

i didn't read the wall of text, because I don't have time/couldn't be bothered, but the reaction and description in the thread made me think 'So, a modified Wound/Vitality system? Why change the name?'

You don't even need to go all the way to SW Saga - it's an option right in the DMG. I've used it off and on in games. I think the Disad when going into Wounds is pretty novel and might be worthy of pursuit.

I never liked the ablative nature of vitality though. Crits bypassing to go to Wounds makes a much deadlier game than is necessary. So, having two systems, both opaque and separate - but where you gain increasing difficulties when you go into Wounds is more in the spirit of 5E.

I might even adopt NewDM's idea of getting exhaustion - though I'd overhaul the exhaustion rules simultaneously. Probably where you can burn a HD to heal back a level, and a long rest cures them all. It's called exhaustion - not heat stroke... lesser restoration should work as well.

[Theodoxus]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Vitality_and_Wound_Points

I was gonna try Angry's system until someone pointed me toward the starwars wound system. I think it makes a lot of sense. I plan on using a hybrid of starwars and 5e keeping the death saves from 5e, only regain vitality points on shortrest. Long rest you can roll 1 hit die for wound healing. I still gotta work some things out before the campaign starts so it is a little simpler and crit are less a tad less deadly, especially if none of my characters have magical healing.

i didn't read the wall of text, because I don't have time/couldn't be bothered, but the reaction and description in the thread made me think 'So, a modified Wound/Vitality system? Why change the name?'

You don't even need to go all the way to SW Saga - it's an option right in the DMG. I've used it off and on in games. I think the Disad when going into Wounds is pretty novel and might be worthy of pursuit.

I never liked the ablative nature of vitality though. Crits bypassing to go to Wounds makes a much deadlier game than is necessary. So, having two systems, both opaque and separate - but where you gain increasing difficulties when you go into Wounds is more in the spirit of 5E.

I might even adopt NewDM's idea of getting exhaustion - though I'd overhaul the exhaustion rules simultaneously. Probably where you can burn a HD to heal back a level, and a long rest cures them all. It's called exhaustion - not heat stroke... lesser restoration should work as well.


Note that my original question was to get your opinion IF YOU HAVE TRIED IT. If you've tried something similar, such as the Star Wars system, I want to know how it went. But "I don't understand it" or "gosh, Angry sure is wordy" aren't particularly pertinent.

Sorry, LL - my experience with Wound/Vitality is that it adds complexity without a lot of benefit. Of course, W/V doesn't have the added mechanics that Angry's does - so maybe that helps differentiate them. In my view, W/V increases your HP total to a similar level you'd get in 4E. It grants a bit more survivability, allowing DMs to throw deadlier encounters - though the complaint of tracking two pools (especially as I noted above, the ablative nature of W/V, where vitality can be bypassed and the damage goes straight to Wounds) is valid.

I'm actually pretty interested in testing out the modifications I noted above... my players? probably not so much...

[Kryx]

"gosh, Angry sure is wordy" aren't particularly pertinent.
If you're asking for an opinion on a feature and don't even provide a link nor a summary of the incredibly verbose rules then you can't expect anything different.

Perhaps you should format your post explaining the 3rd party system that you're asking about in the future.

[Laserlight]

If you're asking for an opinion on a feature and don't even provide a link nor a summary of the incredibly verbose rules then you can't expect anything different.

Perhaps you should format your post explaining the 3rd party system that you're asking about in the future.

Since I was quite explicitly asking for the experience of people who have already tried it, and thus must necessarily have already read it and understood it well enough to try it, neither link nor summary should have been needed.

[Kryx]

If you've tried Angry's "Fighting Spirit" modification to hit points, what's your opinion of it?
This was not explicit. You later even mention that similar system experiences are acceptable answers as well.

People are giving you their opinions on a modification of the game based on their experiences with the game. If you want more precise opinions in the future then you should be explicitly clear that you only want people who have used the specific system. Even then you'll get people who haven't and asking how the system works - which is where the concise description of how it works comes in.