[3.5] Would like some tips on creating a character for an player returning to D&D

[RoyVG]

I would like to ask the people on the forum to help me with creating a character for a new-ish player. She used to play (and even DM) D&D 3.5 a long time ago (as in >3 years), so she might be a bit rusty, but we want to create a character for a campaign I'm currently in and she is interested in to join.

I talked to her a little bit about the concept of what kind of character she wants, along with some background on the campaign we are doing right now.

As a race, she wants either an Elf, half-elf or (lesser) Tiefling race
For classes, she wants to have something magical, preferably a caster or caster-like character, though not too complicated or requiring too much bookkeeping. Something stricktly melee or something heavy armored is out of the question.
In terms of campaign, we are currently in a very undead-heavy campaign. The main enemies, both mooks and strong 'boss-monsters' have always been undead and most of the party is geared towards fighting undead (mainly Bane(undead) weapons).
We were in charge of creating our own deity that the party encountered somewhere in the past (or new characters will encounter in the future). This forces the party towards a Non-evil alignment
Our current level is 11, with our current party is consisting:

A Warforged Artificer (me) mainly focused on buffs and utility items.
A BattleSorcerer/AbjurantChampion/JadePhoenixMage Gish with a custom intelligent weapon and and custom familiar. DM was veeeeery lenient in what he was allowed to do.
A Mystic Ranger archer (also relatively new player)
A Swift hunter focussing on Scout, also has a mount it likes to use. Can often literally throw a fist full of d6's when volley-ing one undead creature. Has the Nemeisis feat, turning him into our undead radar
An Ubermount character that charges for insane damage and uses a Large bear.
Occassionally an extra player comes in who plays a Barbarian that wrecks stuff with a giant club


In general, the DM allows pretty much everything available that is first party, though Dragon Magazine is case-by-case. He is open to homebrewing some stuff if it fits the flavor of the setting

At first I wanted to suggest Beguiler, but with the extremely heavy focus on undead, would make most of her efforts little difficult. So far I'm likely going to just suggest Sorcerer or Favored Soul with some PrCs, but I'm having some trouble going from there. She herself mentioned Warlock, but with Hellfire Warlock being difficult due to flavor and her not wanting to go into melee with Clawlock, this becomes somewhat sub-par. Maybe rewriting the Enlightende Spirit PrC using the Hellfire Warlock chassis could work, assuming my DM will allow it (he likely will)?

Any help would be appreciated.

[Florian]

How about a plain old reach cleric? DMM, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, go for it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Enlightened fist warlock can be fun; warlock goodies and monk goodies on the same character is amusing. There is the small hiccup of most enlightened fist features being incompatible with warlock; activating when a spell is cast or a spell slot expended when a warlock does neither of those things. It's okay (not great, just okay) either way but it gets pretty cool if you can get the DM to "okay" the use of arcane fist and hold ray with invocations.

If that doesn't grab you, how about just a good old-fashioned druid? Power, flexibility, and no need to worry about the complexity of multiclassing.

Last option: duskblade. Gish-in-a-can; the class. You get to bring arcane might and sword-swinging muscle to a fight and it's reasonably entertaining. Abjurant champion is a good addition in later levels.

There's plenty of options that are much more powerful than these (well, not the druid) but they're more or less on par with the rest of the party (I don't expect the druid to be used to its full power if she's that rusty).

[RoyVG]

Druid could work. And it can fit the party in all kinds of ways. She did mention it at some point, but I'm not sure.

I didn't mean the Enlightened Fist, I meant the Enlightened Spirit, it's a Warlock PrC from Complete Mage. It slowly turns a Warlock into an 'Angel' instead of becoming more fiendish. It's considered pretty terrible because it only progresses Eldritch blast and gives a couple of pre-set invocations, but does not actually progress your invoker level. so after exiting it and going back to warlock, you can pick you first lesser invocation at level 16. If my DM allows it, I would rewrite the PrC into either a short class like the Hellfire Warlock but refluff it, or change the pre-set invocations into a 8/10 Invocation progression and keep the other bonuses like the auras and resistances. It would be the best way if she wanted to play a warlock, but not clash too much with the current party.

Duskblade might be a bit too much melee for her tastes. She already said she preferred something caster-ish and stay safe in the backlines.

The problem is that I'll prbably have to get quite some knoledge from the different books in order to get her up to par with the rest of the party besides mine. Everyone is playing around with big numbers and big damage.

[HammeredWharf]

Druid can be hard to play in high-op games, if you're a newbie. Its main advantage is the easily changed T1 spell list coupled with form-changing abilities. Both of these advantages suffer greatly when the player doesn't know which spells and forms are worth using and can't adjust her character's stats easily.

I'd recommend a Focused Specialist (Conjuration) Wizard with orbs. Arcane Thesis on Orb of Fire, then Quicken/Empower/etc it and blast away. Use Orb of Force and Energy Substitution if necessary. She'll have reliable damage, crowd control and defenses. It's easy and simple for a caster.

[Tiri]

Hellfire Warlock being difficult due to flavor and her not wanting to go into melee with Clawlock, this becomes somewhat sub-par. Maybe rewriting the Enlightende Spirit PrC using the Hellfire Warlock chassis could work, assuming my DM will allow it (he likely will)?

Any help would be appreciated.

Well, you know, the Hellfire Warlock doesn't require you to be evil. Even the sample character's hook is something about the weapon (hellfire in this context) not being intrinsically evil.

[ATHATH]

I know that I've been suggesting it in several threads now, but do you think Tempest_Stormwind's Holy Fire build would work?

You could also go for just a standard Radiant Servant of Pelor build, if you think it would be simpler.

[Hunter Noventa]

Well, you know, the Hellfire Warlock doesn't require you to be evil. Even the sample character's hook is something about the weapon (hellfire in this context) not being intrinsically evil.

This is a consideration.

But even a blaster Warlock is a solid and dependable choice without Hellfire. The Utility of things like being able to See Invisible (Ghosts anyone) and Fly at-will shouldn't be under-estimated. If the campaign is really that Undead heavy she could even take baneful Blast (Undead).

She could also go for the Prestige Class that combines Warlock with Divine Casting, I just can't remember the name off the top of my head. Get into that via Favoured Soul and you've got the list of abilities you can use all the time, and the ones you can use a few times per day, should be simple enough.

[RoyVG]

I'll talk with her over the options this weekend, thanks everyone :smallsmile:

[Andezzar]

She could also go for the Prestige Class that combines Warlock with Divine Casting, I just can't remember the name off the top of my head. Get into that via Favoured Soul and you've got the list of abilities you can use all the time, and the ones you can use a few times per day, should be simple enough.Warlock 4/Binder 1/Ur-Priest 2/Eldritch Disciple 8/Hellfire Warlock 3/Warlock 2 might also be an option.

[RoyVG]

Warlock 4/Binder 1/Ur-Priest 2/Eldritch Disciple 8/Hellfire Warlock 3/Warlock 2 might also be an option.

Ur-priest is extremely frowned upon in this group, with most, if not all, being extremely loyal to a homebrew (Lawful or Neutral?) Good goddess, as she is one of the few explicitly against undead in this campaign. She'll get pounced on by our Gish Sorcerer the moment he learns about it, him being the most zealous of the party. He wants to get the Sense Heretic spell in one way, shape or form, simply to start chanting 'Heretic. Heretic. Heretic' while casting it :smalltongue: Eldritch disciple is also out of the question because it requires to worship an evil or chaotic deity, neither of which is favorable if she doesn't want to get kicked out of the group.

Being neutral is not a problem, my character is a True Neutral Artificer, but I was employed by this new-found religion to help create magic items before being brought into the party to help one of the high priests (The Gish Sorcerer... Yeah not a cleric, don't ask)

[Andezzar]

Ur-priest is extremely frowned upon in this group, with most, if not all, being extremely loyal to a homebrew (Lawful or Neutral?) Good goddess, as she is one of the few explicitly against undead in this campaign. She'll get pounced on by our Gish Sorcerer the moment he learns about it, him being the most zealous of the party. He wants to get the Sense Heretic spell in one way, shape or form, simply to start chanting 'Heretic. Heretic. Heretic' while casting it :smalltongue: Eldritch disciple is also out of the question because it requires to worship an evil or chaotic deity, neither of which is favorable if she doesn't want to get kicked out of the group.

Being neutral is not a problem, my character is a True Neutral Artificer, but I was employed by this new-found religion to help create magic items before being brought into the party to help one of the high priests (The Gish Sorcerer... Yeah not a cleric, don't ask)Nevermind then.

Where did the third paragraph go?

In case you are still interested, I wouldn't combine sacred exorcist with Favored Soul. Just to fulfil the prerequisites you have to block a spell of your few spells known. Normally Dsimissal is not a bad spell, but the fact that it can be negated by a save and that the save DC for favored souls use the WIS modifier for save DCs an CHA for casting make it a suboptimal choice for that class.
What's wrong with a cleric? A zealous person with the backing of an institution behind him (Cleric) is at least as likely to run around screaming heretic! than an individual that just happens to be favored by a god.
Having access to the whole spell list might seem more complex and difficult than only having access to a couple of spells, but the former is much harder to screw up. A Favored Soul is mostly stuck with his spell choices, whereas the cleric can change them every day.
If the cleric seems daunting, just select a couple of spells as you would for a Favored Soul to get your standard load out and change a few when you think something else would be more appropriate.

[RoyVG]

Where did the third paragraph go?.

Accidentally deleted it with another edit :smallannoyed:, didn't see it until you mentioned it


In case you are still interested, I wouldn't combine sacred exorcist with Favored Soul. Just to fulfil the prerequisites you have to block a spell of your few spells known. Normally Dsimissal is not a bad spell, but the fact that it can be negated by a save and that the save DC for favored souls use the WIS modifier for save DCs an CHA for casting make it a suboptimal choice for that class.
What's wrong with a cleric? A zealous person with the backing of an institution behind him (Cleric) is at least as likely to run around screaming heretic! than an individual that just happens to be favored by a god.
Having access to the whole spell list might seem more complex and difficult than only having access to a couple of spells, but the former is much harder to screw up. A Favored Soul is mostly stuck with his spell choices, whereas the cleric can change them every day.
If the cleric seems daunting, just select a couple of spells as you would for a Favored Soul to get your standard load out and change a few when you think something else would be more appropriate

I guess you're right. Like I said previously, I'm just going to sit with her this weekend and we'll figure things out. Thanks for your opinion anyway.

[Amphetryon]

How are Dread Necromancers viewed in this campaign world?

[RoyVG]

How are Dread Necromancers viewed in this campaign world?
Short answer: Killed on sight :smalltongue:

Longer answer: In the recent past there was a great necromancer that tried to rule the world with an nearly unending amount of undead. Several years before the start of the campaign, this necromancer suddenly dissappeared, and while many undead dissapeared with him, many still roam the land, continuing with the task they were given before he dissappeared. Necromancy is seen as the greatest crime in the world, because it symphatizes with this necromancer. Many cities were, or are still, terrorized by the undead, so there is a large bias against necromancy

[Andezzar]

Do you mean necromancy as in animating corpses or as in one of the 8 schools of magic?

[RoyVG]

Do you mean necromancy as in animating corpses or as in one of the 8 schools of magic?
Mostly the animation of corpses, but the use of Negative Energy in any way is generally frowned upon.

[Hunter Noventa]

Eldritch disciple is also out of the question because it requires to worship an evil or chaotic deity, neither of which is favorable if she doesn't want to get kicked out of the group.

Well that's craptacular, I didn't even realize that was an issue with that PrC. Though as comfy as you are with homebrew that seems like something easy to homebrew away too.

There's also of course, Eldritch Theurge.

How are Dragons viewed int his world? Something like Dragon Shaman or Dragonfire Adept might work better with the flavor you have going.

Another alternative when it comes to using magic without being overwhelmed might be the Warmage, though they lack some utility.

[Gildedragon]

How about factotum? It is caster light but quite versatile and handy.

[ATHATH]

How about Binder, possibly going into Anima Mage?

[AnimeTheCat]

I know RSoP is great, I love the class very much. But I always like trying something new. Why not a Cleric 5/Morninglord of Lathander X? It gives you 10/10 spell progression, a handful of free spells 1/day that get little bonuses, greater turnings, and other various buffs/benefits of clerical variety. I'll go ahead and say that it's from Player's Guide to Faerun, but it reflavoring is fairly simple and if you're in faerun then that makes it extra easy.

Another option is Bard (regular or divine variant, your pick)10/Sublime Chord X or Bard 5/Seeker of the Song X. Those classes are good in ANY campaign and focus on her desire to be a spellcaster without too much complication. One replaces your spells with cool stuff and one just gives you more/better spells. Both are very fun to play and all the while you're getting better at bard things.

[daremetoidareyo]

How are Dragons viewed in this world? Something like Dragon Shaman or Dragonfire Adept might work better with the flavor you have going.

Another alternative when it comes to using magic without being overwhelmed might be the Warmage, though they lack some utility.

Don't do dragon shaman. That class was invented by an dracophilic intern who just didn't care about players having fun.

Dragonfire adept tho, that class is perfect noob chassis. Few choices, most of which are in the same book that the class appears in. No attack roles, just cut out a cone template and let that player roll a handful of dice.

[Willie the Duck]

I know RSoP is great, I love the class very much. But I always like trying something new. Why not a Cleric 5/Morninglord of Lathander X?


There's also Master of Radiance from Libris Mortis. Probably not OP, but 3/day turning into a searing-light gatling gun is definitely a fun way to approach an undead problem.

[Theobod]

Hmmmm, easy bake caster, hangs in the back.....

Warmage

All the blasty goodies, a stat to damage with em (pair with the War Mage prestige class wherever that is for even more flat damage in the form of +1,+2 and eventually iirc+3 per dice of damage)
Along with some decent buffs and a couple BFC spells, all sponta from a list, just print out the list and go to town, also can add spells to their list at regular intervals, IIRC there's an alternate class feature somewhere for adding non evocation spells instead, if you can find it I suggest Fly and eventually teleport ;)

Pathfinder Summoner is awesome for similar reasons but with summons instead of blasts if your party is open to PF material (and backward porting a class is probably better than homebrew for balance, so seems likely).

[AnimeTheCat]

So, had a bit of an idea of its not already too late. Play: THE BARDADIN! It works out very well with a paladin of freedom. You level up as Paladin of Freedom 4/Bard X and take Devoted Performer. Gives you Turn Undead, the multitude of useful paladin abilities, and all the juicy bard abilities to boot. If you want your build with cheese your paladin levels give you turn undead and since you're not gonna be particularly good at turning undead you can use those turning attempts to fuel the almighty broken Divine Metamagic. But, if cheese isn't your cup of tea, you still have stunning versatility and survivability from you 4d10 of paladin, divine grace bonus to saves on a Cha driven build, and a handful of very handy spells.

[Andezzar]

Divine Metamagic only works on divine spells, so if you want to use it on bard spells you must also use the divine bard variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) . Since you cast off WIS in that case, I would also take he serenity feat to tie the paladin abilities to WIS.

[Divide by Zero]

Binder? It has probably the highest ratio of flexibility to bookkeeping, has some good options for dealing with undead, and is tons of fun IMO. May potentially be an issue depending on how they fit into the setting though.

[RoyVG]

Thanks everyone for the help, nearly forgot abou thtis thread :smalltongue:

We eventually settled on straight warlock, so no binder+hellfire warlock, and not a glaive-/claw-lock either. We bought as a couple of items that improve her Eldritch Blast. She can do some decent damage at this point, either more single target damage using Empower Spell-like ability, or using Eldritch Chain to cover a bit more ground.

We did have plans to make a druid as an secondary character, should the need arise or if she doesn't have enough fun as a warlock. We didn't get too far this weekend finalizing it though.

Anyway, thanks for all the suggestions :smallsmile: