What is the CR?

[Iceking]

Hey all

I made a Drider for in a campaign i'm writing. I wondered what the challenge rating would be and how to adjust it for a group of 3/4 lvl 1/2 players. It counts as a kind of endboss and my players havent played a lot of dnd yet.

Thanks in advance


Elyen (Old Female Drider)
Large monstrosity, CE
AC: 12
HP: 12
Speed: 30 ft, climb 30ft
STR 13 (+1)
DEX 13 (+1)
CON 15 (+2)
INT 13 (+1)
WIS 14 (+2)
CHA 12 (+1)
Proficienty bonus +2
Skills: Perception +4, Stealth +8
Senses: Darkvision 120ft, Passiver perception 14
Languages: Elvish, Undercommon
CR:?
Fey ancestry: The drider has advantage on saves against charmed. Magic cant put the drider to sleep.
Innate Spellcasting: The drider’s innate spellcasting is Wisdom (spell save DC: 12). The drider can innately cast the following spells:
At will: Dancing lights
1/day each: Darkness, Faerie fire.
Spider climb: The drider can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make a check.
Sunlight Sensitivity: While in sunlight, the drider has disadvantage on attack rolls, as well as on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
Web Walker: The drider ignores movement restrictions caused by webbing.
ACTIONS
Multiattack: The drider makes three attacks either with its longsword or its longbow. It can replace on of those attacks with a bite attack.
Bite Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5ft. One creature. Hit: 2(1d4) piercing damage plus 9 (2d8) poison damage.
Longsword Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d8 + 1) slashing damage, or 6 (1d10 + 1) slashing damage if used with two hands.
Longbow: Ranged weapon attack: +3 to hit, range 150/600 ft, one target. Hit: 5(1d8+1) piercing damage plus 4 (1d8) poison damage.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Except for the high number of attacks, this is a relatively easy challenge. But with those 3 attacks, the damage is fairly high.
Defensively, it's around CR 0 to 1/8.
Offensively it's 1/8 CR for to-hit, but CR 2 for damage.
Plus they can also cast Faerie Fire, increasing their offensive potential

So I'd peg it around CR 1.

Be wary of using very large groups of these, as they could easily DPR the party down before the party can eliminate enough of them due to action economy.

Edit: I missed the poison rider on the longbow attack. With that in mind, I agree with the below remarks, CR 2

[Gtdead]

Sounds like CR 2.

I'm not exactly sure how it works, but your monster has very low defensive stats which make it CR 0.
It's capable of dealing 27 dpr, which makes it CR 4
But it's attack bonus is +3, which is less that CR 4 by 2 points, bringing CR down to 3

(3+0)/2 = 1.5
DMG says that halves are rounded up, thus CR 2.

[Rysto]

I'd be very wary about throwing this at level 1 players. 2d4 + 2d8 damage is likely to drop almost any PC with a single hit (it averages 14 damage per hit, which drops any level 1 PC other than a barbarian). Faerie Fire gives him advantage on the attack.

2d8+1 damage from his longbow has a good chance of dropping any back-row PCs, too. This thing could easily drop 2-3 PCs in the very first round of combat.

[Shining Wrath]

The multiattack plus minimal HP and AC makes this creature a classic "glass cannon". If it achieves surprise with that stealth + 8 it will deal as much as 17 points of damage, 3 times, with the longbow. With good (bad) rolling it has taken 3 party members out in the surprise round. More typically, with a +3 to hit and a party not comprised of wizards with no mage armor, i.e., typical PC AC 14 or 15, it's going to hit ~1.5 times for ~9 damage each on the surprise round - probably, someone is down making death saves.

If this thing is intended for first level characters I think I'd drop the poison from the longbow. It's intelligent; if it can spot the characters capable of ranged attacks (carrying a bow, look like a wizard) and rolls well on a surprise round it can take out two characters during surprise and retreat into its web and destroy the melee characters at its leisure. Taking away the 1d8 poison really reduces the chances of that.

[Iceking]

Thx for the fast responses.

So i dropped the poison on longbow.
Can i change other things to make it easier to the players, more safe.
It's like this in my story that she has just hatched a couple of baby spiders (non combatants), Would it be acceptable for her to, lets say only take 2 attacks per round cause she has some baby's on her / she's old? Or maybe 1 attack and upgrade her def a little more (like make her lvl 2 so she has an extra HD?)

All of this without destroying the whole Drider story

Elyen (Old Female Drider)
Large monstrosity, CE
AC: 12
HP: 12
Speed: 30 ft, climb 30ft
STR 13 (+1)
DEX 13 (+1)
CON 15 (+2)
INT 13 (+1)
WIS 14 (+2)
CHA 12 (+1)
Proficienty bonus +2
Skills: Perception +4, Stealth +8
Senses: Darkvision 120ft, Passiver perception 14
Languages: Elvish, Undercommon
CR:?
Fey ancestry: The drider has advantage on saves against charmed. Magic cant put the drider to sleep.
Innate Spellcasting: The drider’s innate spellcasting is Wisdom (spell save DC: 12). The drider can innately cast the following spells:
At will: Dancing lights
1/day each: Darkness, Faerie fire.
Spider climb: The drider can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make a check.
Sunlight Sensitivity: While in sunlight, the drider has disadvantage on attack rolls, as well as on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
Web Walker: The drider ignores movement restrictions caused by webbing.
ACTIONS
Multiattack: The drider makes three attacks either with its longsword or its longbow. It can replace on of those attacks with a bite attack.
Bite Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5ft. One creature. Hit: 2(1d4) piercing damage plus 9 (2d8) poison damage.
Longsword Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d8 + 1) slashing damage, or 6 (1d10 + 1) slashing damage if used with two hands.
Longbow: Ranged weapon attack: +3 to hit, range 150/600 ft, one target. Hit: 5(1d8+1) piercing damage.

[Shining Wrath]

To make her less glass-cannon, you could give her a shield. One less attack per round, AC + 2. The shield is held by one of the spider body legs so it allows use of the longbow or versatile use of the longsword, but it gets in the way of rapid attacking. (My hands are waving here)

Now you've got a creature that does max damage of 2x(1d10+1)=22 in melee, a little less with the bow, typical damage of about 6.5 or 5.5 since PC AC will be high enough that +3 to hit translates into about a 50% chance per attack.

Give it a surprise round and probably someone is wounded but not down and then the action economy is decidedly in the PC's favor. At that point an extra HD is not too bad.

Result is 17 HP, AC 14, two attacks per round doing probably about 6 points a round. Given a surprise round it may manage to drop one PC, even two, but the odds are good that someone will reach them before they fail 3 death checks.

And if the PCs roll well they'll kill it without blinking.

[Iceking]

To make her less glass-cannon, you could give her a shield. One less attack per round, AC + 2. The shield is held by one of the spider body legs so it allows use of the longbow or versatile use of the longsword, but it gets in the way of rapid attacking. (My hands are waving here)

Now you've got a creature that does max damage of 2x(1d10+1)=22 in melee, a little less with the bow, typical damage of about 6.5 or 5.5 since PC AC will be high enough that +3 to hit translates into about a 50% chance per attack.

Give it a surprise round and probably someone is wounded but not down and then the action economy is decidedly in the PC's favor. At that point an extra HD is not too bad.

Result is 17 HP, AC 14, two attacks per round doing probably about 6 points a round. Given a surprise round it may manage to drop one PC, even two, but the odds are good that someone will reach them before they fail 3 death checks.

And if the PCs roll well they'll kill it without blinking.

And this is stays CR2?

[Malifice]

Hey all

I made a Drider for in a campaign i'm writing. I wondered what the challenge rating would be and how to adjust it for a group of 3/4 lvl 1/2 players. It counts as a kind of endboss and my players havent played a lot of dnd yet.

Thanks in advance


Elyen (Old Female Drider)
Large monstrosity, CE
AC: 12
HP: 12
Speed: 30 ft, climb 30ft
STR 13 (+1)
DEX 13 (+1)
CON 15 (+2)
INT 13 (+1)
WIS 14 (+2)
CHA 12 (+1)
Proficienty bonus +2
Skills: Perception +4, Stealth +8
Senses: Darkvision 120ft, Passiver perception 14
Languages: Elvish, Undercommon
CR:?
Fey ancestry: The drider has advantage on saves against charmed. Magic cant put the drider to sleep.
Innate Spellcasting: The drider’s innate spellcasting is Wisdom (spell save DC: 12). The drider can innately cast the following spells:
At will: Dancing lights
1/day each: Darkness, Faerie fire.
Spider climb: The drider can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make a check.
Sunlight Sensitivity: While in sunlight, the drider has disadvantage on attack rolls, as well as on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
Web Walker: The drider ignores movement restrictions caused by webbing.
ACTIONS
Multiattack: The drider makes three attacks either with its longsword or its longbow. It can replace on of those attacks with a bite attack.
Bite Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5ft. One creature. Hit: 2(1d4) piercing damage plus 9 (2d8) poison damage.
Longsword Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d8 + 1) slashing damage, or 6 (1d10 + 1) slashing damage if used with two hands.
Longbow: Ranged weapon attack: +3 to hit, range 150/600 ft, one target. Hit: 5(1d8+1) piercing damage plus 4 (1d8) poison damage.


I'd triple the HP, increase the AC to 13 and call it CR2.

[uraniumrooster]

Thx for the fast responses.

So i dropped the poison on longbow.
Can i change other things to make it easier to the players, more safe.
It's like this in my story that she has just hatched a couple of baby spiders (non combatants), Would it be acceptable for her to, lets say only take 2 attacks per round cause she has some baby's on her / she's old? Or maybe 1 attack and upgrade her def a little more (like make her lvl 2 so she has an extra HD?)

All of this without destroying the whole Drider story

Elyen (Old Female Drider)
Large monstrosity, CE
AC: 12
HP: 12
Speed: 30 ft, climb 30ft
STR 13 (+1)
DEX 13 (+1)
CON 15 (+2)
INT 13 (+1)
WIS 14 (+2)
CHA 12 (+1)
Proficienty bonus +2
Skills: Perception +4, Stealth +8
Senses: Darkvision 120ft, Passiver perception 14
Languages: Elvish, Undercommon
CR:?
Fey ancestry: The drider has advantage on saves against charmed. Magic cant put the drider to sleep.
Innate Spellcasting: The drider’s innate spellcasting is Wisdom (spell save DC: 12). The drider can innately cast the following spells:
At will: Dancing lights
1/day each: Darkness, Faerie fire.
Spider climb: The drider can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make a check.
Sunlight Sensitivity: While in sunlight, the drider has disadvantage on attack rolls, as well as on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
Web Walker: The drider ignores movement restrictions caused by webbing.
ACTIONS
Multiattack: The drider makes three attacks either with its longsword or its longbow. It can replace on of those attacks with a bite attack.
Bite Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5ft. One creature. Hit: 2(1d4) piercing damage plus 9 (2d8) poison damage.
Longsword Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d8 + 1) slashing damage, or 6 (1d10 + 1) slashing damage if used with two hands.
Longbow: Ranged weapon attack: +3 to hit, range 150/600 ft, one target. Hit: 5(1d8+1) piercing damage.

How are you planning on setting up the encounter? If they're in an area of total darkness, and nobody in the party has Darkvision past 60', she could kite them around in the dark with her bow, hiding when the party gets too close to her position. In this case, I'd keep her defensive stats where you have them... the players will have a very hard time spotting her and even getting an opportunity to damage, but if they do catch her in the open they should be able to kill her.

If it's just gonna be a straight-up fight, then I'd pump her HP and AC up a bit. Malifice's suggestion of Triple HP and 13 AC sounds about right for lvl 1-2 characters in an open fight.

[NewDM]

If its meant to be a boss fight you'll want to first read this article: http://theangrygm.com/return-of-the-son-of-the-dd-boss-fight-now-in-5e/

The short of it is that a boss creature is has to take the place of at least 4 creatures. You have to ask what 4 creatures do in a combat?


4 separate attacks
4 separate conditions to disable
4 separate moves
4 separate HP pools
4 separate ACs


Now lets see what your Drider does.
It has the HP of a CR 1/8 creature.
It has the AC of a CR 0 creature.
It has the stats of a CR 1.
It has the Proficiency bonus of a CR 0-4
It has the casting stats of a CR 1/4
It has the save DC of a CR 0
It has the attacks of 2 CR 1/4 creatures and 1 CR 1/8 creature
It has the attack bonus of a CR 0-2

Overall this thing will get stomped into the ground.

So lets rebuild it keeping in mind it needs to replace 4 creatures:
We want it to be a medium challenge for at least 4 level 2 players. That means it must be at least CR 2. Bosses should meet the CR 2 level for almost everything on the list.

So we need the hit points of a CR 2 creature. The max on the chart in the DMG is 100 hit points.

The AC of a CR 2 creature is 13, you can lower this by 2 points and give it resistance against non-magical weapon damage. So we'll say AC 11 with resistance against non-magical weapon damage.

We want to bump its stats a bit so increase its strength and dexterity by 2.

The Proficiency bonus can stay the same.

We need to up its Casting ability so we give it three 1st level slots and two 2nd level slots. We give it the following spells:
1st(3): Faerie Fire, Cure Wounds
2nd(2): Darkness, Web

The save DCs should go up to 13

Its attacks should be 4 attacks with Multiattack that deal 15-20 damage total so we will say 5 damage each. So 1d6+2 or 1d4+3.

Its attack bonus can stay the same.

In order to make it more survivable we are going to give it a few reactions.

Now we need to give it a way to take 4 negative conditions before it is affected. To start we will give it advantage on any Int, Wis, or Cha saves. That should mitigate at least one saving throw. Then we are going to give it Evasion for Dex saves (half damage on a failed save, no damage on a success just like the Rogue), that's 2. We'll say that since it has 4 different attacks, you must use 4 different disabling conditions to totally stop it. So each condition only affects one set of limbs. That'll about do it. Now we put that all together and we end up with:

Elyen (Old Female Drider)
Large monstrosity, CE
AC: 11
HP: 100
Speed: 30 ft, climb 30ft
STR 15 (+2)
DEX 15 (+2)
CON 15 (+2)
INT 13 (+1)
WIS 14 (+2)
CHA 12 (+1)
Proficienty bonus +2
Skills: Perception +4, Stealth +8
Senses: Darkvision 120ft, Passiver perception 14
Languages: Elvish, Undercommon
CR:2

Fey ancestry. The drider has advantage on saves against charmed. Magic cant put the drider to sleep.

Magical Creature. The drider is a creature of magic and has advantage against any Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma saving throw.

Thick Skin. The drider has resistance against non-magical weapon damage.

Spider Sense. The drider has unnaturally fast reflexes and only takes half damage on a failed dexterity saving throw and none on a successful one.

Innate Spell Casting. The drider’s innate spellcasting is Wisdom (spell save DC: 13). The drider can innately cast the following spells:
At will: Dancing lights
1st(3): Faerie Fire, Cure Wounds
2nd(2): Darkness, Web

Spider Climb. The drider can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make a check.

Sunlight Sensitivity. While in sunlight, the drider has disadvantage on attack rolls, as well as on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.

Web Walker. The drider ignores movement restrictions caused by webbing.

Quad Mind. The driders brain is separated into 4 parts to control its limbs. Any condition or effect that would deprive the drider of its attacks (such as stunned, paralyzed, incapacitated, or others) only affects one of its attacks, and none of its movement until at least 4 conditions are applied.

ACTIONS
Multiattack. The drider makes four attacks of its choice from Bite, Long Sword, or Long Bow.

Bite. Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5ft. One creature. Hit: 5(1d4+2) piercing damage
Long Sword. Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d6+1) slashing damage.
Long Bow. Ranged weapon attack: +3 to hit, range 150/600 ft, one target. Hit: 5(1d6+1) piercing damage.

REACTIONS
Frenzy. When the drider's hit points drops below 50 it enters a wild frenzy and swings wildly with its weapons. This causes any creature within 10 feet to make a DC 13 Dexterity saving throw. On a success they can use their reaction to move 10 feet away from the driver. On a failed saving throw (or if they choose not to move) they take 2d4 damage. The drider can repeat this each time it takes damage as a reaction as long as its hit points are below 50.

Web Sling. When the drider is hit with a ranged attack or ranged spell as a reaction it can shoot a thick strand of sticky web at the attacker. The drider makes a ranged attack +3 to hit, range 120 feet against the attacker, on a success the attacker is pulled to the closest adjacent space next to the drider and falls prone.

[Malifice]

If its meant to be a boss fight you'll want to first read this article: http://theangrygm.com/return-of-the-son-of-the-dd-boss-fight-now-in-5e/

The short of it is that a boss creature is has to take the place of at least 4 creatures. You have to ask what 4 creatures do in a combat?


4 separate attacks
4 separate conditions to disable
4 separate moves
4 separate HP pools
4 separate ACs


Now lets see what your Drider does.
It has the HP of a CR 1/8 creature.
It has the AC of a CR 0 creature.
It has the stats of a CR 1.
It has the Proficiency bonus of a CR 0-4
It has the casting stats of a CR 1/4
It has the save DC of a CR 0
It has the attacks of 2 CR 1/4 creatures and 1 CR 1/8 creature
It has the attack bonus of a CR 0-2

Overall this thing will get stomped into the ground.

So lets rebuild it keeping in mind it needs to replace 4 creatures:
We want it to be a medium challenge for at least 4 level 2 players. That means it must be at least CR 2. Bosses should meet the CR 2 level for almost everything on the list.

So we need the hit points of a CR 2 creature. The max on the chart in the DMG is 100 hit points.

The AC of a CR 2 creature is 13, you can lower this by 2 points and give it resistance against non-magical weapon damage. So we'll say AC 11 with resistance against non-magical weapon damage.

We want to bump its stats a bit so increase its strength and dexterity by 2.

The Proficiency bonus can stay the same.

We need to up its Casting ability so we give it three 1st level slots and two 2nd level slots. We give it the following spells:
1st(3): Faerie Fire, Cure Wounds
2nd(2): Darkness, Web

The save DCs should go up to 13

Its attacks should be 4 attacks with Multiattack that deal 15-20 damage total so we will say 5 damage each. So 1d6+2 or 1d4+3.

Its attack bonus can stay the same.

In order to make it more survivable we are going to give it a few reactions.

Now we need to give it a way to take 4 negative conditions before it is affected. To start we will give it advantage on any Int, Wis, or Cha saves. That should mitigate at least one saving throw. Then we are going to give it Evasion for Dex saves (half damage on a failed save, no damage on a success just like the Rogue), that's 2. We'll say that since it has 4 different attacks, you must use 4 different disabling conditions to totally stop it. So each condition only affects one set of limbs. That'll about do it. Now we put that all together and we end up with:

Elyen (Old Female Drider)
Large monstrosity, CE
AC: 11
HP: 100
Speed: 30 ft, climb 30ft
STR 15 (+2)
DEX 15 (+2)
CON 15 (+2)
INT 13 (+1)
WIS 14 (+2)
CHA 12 (+1)
Proficienty bonus +2
Skills: Perception +4, Stealth +8
Senses: Darkvision 120ft, Passiver perception 14
Languages: Elvish, Undercommon
CR:2

Fey ancestry. The drider has advantage on saves against charmed. Magic cant put the drider to sleep.

Magical Creature. The drider is a creature of magic and has advantage against any Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma saving throw.

Thick Skin. The drider has resistance against non-magical weapon damage.

Spider Sense. The drider has unnaturally fast reflexes and only takes half damage on a failed dexterity saving throw and none on a successful one.

Innate Spell Casting. The drider’s innate spellcasting is Wisdom (spell save DC: 13). The drider can innately cast the following spells:
At will: Dancing lights
1st(3): Faerie Fire, Cure Wounds
2nd(2): Darkness, Web

Spider Climb. The drider can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make a check.

Sunlight Sensitivity. While in sunlight, the drider has disadvantage on attack rolls, as well as on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.

Web Walker. The drider ignores movement restrictions caused by webbing.

Quad Mind. The driders brain is separated into 4 parts to control its limbs. Any condition or effect that would deprive the drider of its attacks (such as stunned, paralyzed, incapacitated, or others) only affects one of its attacks, and none of its movement until at least 4 conditions are applied.

ACTIONS
Multiattack. The drider makes four attacks of its choice from Bite, Long Sword, or Long Bow.

Bite. Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5ft. One creature. Hit: 5(1d4+2) piercing damage
Long Sword. Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d6+1) slashing damage.
Long Bow. Ranged weapon attack: +3 to hit, range 150/600 ft, one target. Hit: 5(1d6+1) piercing damage.

REACTIONS
Frenzy. When the drider's hit points drops below 50 it enters a wild frenzy and swings wildly with its weapons. This causes any creature within 10 feet to make a DC 13 Dexterity saving throw. On a success they can use their reaction to move 10 feet away from the driver. On a failed saving throw (or if they choose not to move) they take 2d4 damage. The drider can repeat this each time it takes damage as a reaction as long as its hit points are below 50.

Web Sling. When the drider is hit with a ranged attack or ranged spell as a reaction it can shoot a thick strand of sticky web at the attacker. The drider makes a ranged attack +3 to hit, range 120 feet against the attacker, on a success the attacker is pulled to the closest adjacent space next to the drider and falls prone.

100 hit points and resistance to non magic attacks against 4 x 1st / 2nd level PCs?

Umad?

This is shockingly bad monster design.

And convoluted. Simply give the opriginal triple the HP (36), 2 legendary saves, and 1 legendary action (the bite). Bump its CR to 2. Done.

[uraniumrooster]

Umad?

Seconded. I don't think AngryGM's Paragon Monster suggestions were meant to be applied against level 1-2 PCs. And if they were, you'd want something like

HP 20/20/20/20/20

And each time one of the 20 HP pools got killed, it'd weaken the monster (by removing one attack per round, for instance).

And even then, I'd get rid of the resistance.

[Malifice]

Seconded. I don't think AngryDM's Paragon Monster suggestions were meant to be applied against level 1-2 PCs. And if they were, you'd want something like

HP 20/20/20/20/20

And each time one of the 20 HP pools got killed, it'd weaken the monster (by removing one attack per round, for instance).

I dont mind this idea, but the legendary critter rules pretty much let you do this already (grant the monster extra actions after PC turns).

Id make the bite a legendary action, and maybe incorporate a move and disengage as part of the same action as well (for a hit and run monster feel).

Give it a legendary save or two to stop it getting SoS attacked by a PC.

40 odd HP is enough for 1/2 level PCs (enough to stop it getting curbstomped in one round by the obligatory GWM fighter before getting to showcase its wares).

[Flashy]

Seconded. I don't think AngryGM's Paragon Monster suggestions were meant to be applied against level 1-2 PCs. And if they were, you'd want something like

HP 20/20/20/20/20

And each time one of the 20 HP pools got killed, it'd weaken the monster (by removing one attack per round, for instance).

And even then, I'd get rid of the resistance.

I have actually run a paragon of two scarecrows as a mummy for a small group of third level PCs, so it does work at low levels. That being said, you're right, the above suggestion is nuts. 20/20 is definitely all you'd want to use.

[uraniumrooster]

I dont mind this idea, but the legendary critter rules pretty much let you do this already (grant the monster extra actions after PC turns).

Id make the bite a legendary action, and maybe incorporate a move and disengage as part of the same action as well (for a hit and run monster feel).

Give it a legendary save or two to stop it getting SoS attacked by a PC.

40 odd HP is enough for 1/2 level PCs (enough to stop it getting curbstomped in one round by the obligatory GWM fighter before getting to showcase its wares).


I have actually run a paragon of two scarecrows as a mummy for a small group of third level PCs, so it does work at low levels. That being said, you're right, the above suggestion is nuts. 20/20 is definitely all you'd want to use.

Agreed.

Honestly, even with 12 HP and 12 AC, I think she could present a reasonably difficult challenge to 1st & 2nd level PCs, if she's encountered in a dark cavern and she stays out of the characters' Darkvision range, using spider climb to stay up on the cavern's ceiling, then making a few bow attacks on her turn before scurrying back into the shadows. Maybe give her the ability to Hide as a Bonus Action?

Seems to fit with the concept of an old but cunning Drider, and the hardest part for the PCs is actually just finding her.

[NewDM]

100 hit points and resistance to non magic attacks against 4 x 1st / 2nd level PCs?

Umad?

This is shockingly bad monster design.

And convoluted. Simply give the opriginal triple the HP (36), 2 legendary saves, and 1 legendary action (the bite). Bump its CR to 2. Done.

You can drop the resistance or go with the minimum hp for a CR 2 which is 86 or both.

If you do the math you'll find that this is about a 5 round encounter for 4 level 2 characters.

The Fighter/Barbarian will be dealing 2d6(weapon) +5(str) +1.33(GWF) or 1d12(weapon) +5(str) +2(rage) average between 9.83 and 13.5 per round.

The Warlock/Sorcerer/Wizard will be dealing 1d10 average 5.5 per round.

The Cleric will be dealing 1d8+2 or 1d8 for 6.5

The Rogue will be dealing 1d8+1d6+4 or 12

Total damage per round is around 37.5. If you divide the 100 hp by 37.5 you end with maybe 4 rounds. If you do resistance you hit 6-8 rounds. If you lower it to 86 and give resistance you'll hit the magic 5 rounds. That's all before hit/miss so going with 86 and dropping resistance for a solid 5-6 rounds is probably accurate.

Edit: I forgot the mention I despise the Legendary/Lair Resistances/Saves so I never suggest them as they are simply not necessary. You can design a challenging boss monster without them.

[Malifice]

Agreed.

Honestly, even with 12 HP and 12 AC, I think she could present a reasonably difficult challenge to 1st & 2nd level PCs, if she's encountered in a dark cavern and she stays out of the characters' Darkvision range, using spider climb to stay up on the cavern's ceiling, then making a few bow attacks on her turn before scurrying back into the shadows. Maybe give her the ability to Hide as a Bonus Action?

Magic missile or sharshooter can deal with this threat pretty easy though.

Id definately up the HP.

[Iceking]

How are you planning on setting up the encounter? If they're in an area of total darkness, and nobody in the party has Darkvision past 60', she could kite them around in the dark with her bow, hiding when the party gets too close to her position. In this case, I'd keep her defensive stats where you have them... the players will have a very hard time spotting her and even getting an opportunity to damage, but if they do catch her in the open they should be able to kill her.

If it's just gonna be a straight-up fight, then I'd pump her HP and AC up a bit. Malifice's suggestion of Triple HP and 13 AC sounds about right for lvl 1-2 characters in an open fight.

The encounter goes a bit like following
At the start the PC's fight a medium challenge (giant spider / Giant spider + normal spiders) according to their lvl.
Half a mile further they can negotiate or fight another giant spider to enter the lair.
Entering the lair, the drider will see them first cause she will be hiding on the ceiling. When they have fought outside, she will automatically attack them. If the negotiated outside, she will talk to them first. If they keep her friendly, she will do no harm and will be a friend for the rest of the story. Otherwise she will start to fight them.

The lair is only 60 sq ft and reaches aprox. 15 ft high. There are little places to take cover.

[Iceking]

Magic missile or sharshooter can deal with this threat pretty easy though.

Id definately up the HP.

Thx, this is what i'm thinking for the moment.


Elyen (Old Female Drider) lvl 4
Large monstrosity, CE
AC: 13
HP: 40
Speed: 30 ft, climb 30ft
STR 13 (+1)
DEX 14 (+2)
CON 15 (+2)
INT 13 (+1)
WIS 14 (+2)
CHA 12 (+1)
Proficienty bonus +2
Skills: Perception +4, Stealth +8
Senses: Darkvision 120ft, Passive perception 14
Languages: Elvish, Undercommon
CR:?
Fey ancestry: The drider has advantage on saves against charmed. Magic cant put the drider to sleep.
Innate Spellcasting: The drider’s innate spellcasting is Wisdom (spell save DC: 12). The drider can innately cast the following spells:
At will: Dancing lights
1/day each: Darkness, Faerie fire.
Spider climb: The drider can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make a check.
Sunlight Sensitivity: While in sunlight, the drider has disadvantage on attack rolls, as well as on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
Web Walker: The drider ignores movement restrictions caused by webbing.
ACTIONS
Multiattack: The drider makes three attacks either with its longsword or its longbow. It can replace on of those attacks with a bite attack.
Bite Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5ft. One creature. Hit: 2(1d4) piercing damage plus 9 (2d8) poison damage.
Longsword Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d8 + 1) slashing damage, or 6 (1d10 + 1) slashing damage if used with two hands.
Longbow: Ranged weapon attack: +4 to hit, range 150/600 ft, one target. Hit: 6(1d8+2) piercing damage.

Edit: dmg on longbow adjusted cause of dex change.

[Vogonjeltz]

Seconded. I don't think AngryGM's Paragon Monster suggestions were meant to be applied against level 1-2 PCs. And if they were, you'd want something like

HP 20/20/20/20/20

And each time one of the 20 HP pools got killed, it'd weaken the monster (by removing one attack per round, for instance).

And even then, I'd get rid of the resistance.

That seems flawed in that it basically enforces maximum PC economy of damage in that, if there were 4 creatures, PCs might not focus fire them down one at a time (which would be the fastest means to success).

The "Quad Mind" feature seems to only exist to discourage anything but pure damage output, making this an exceptionally boring fight.

[Malifice]

Thx, this is what i'm thinking for the moment.


Elyen (Old Female Drider) lvl 4
Large monstrosity, CE
AC: 13
HP: 40
Speed: 30 ft, climb 30ft
STR 13 (+1)
DEX 14 (+2)
CON 15 (+2)
INT 13 (+1)
WIS 14 (+2)
CHA 12 (+1)
Proficienty bonus +2
Skills: Perception +4, Stealth +8
Senses: Darkvision 120ft, Passive perception 14
Languages: Elvish, Undercommon
CR:?
Fey ancestry: The drider has advantage on saves against charmed. Magic cant put the drider to sleep.
Innate Spellcasting: The drider’s innate spellcasting is Wisdom (spell save DC: 12). The drider can innately cast the following spells:
At will: Dancing lights
1/day each: Darkness, Faerie fire.
Spider climb: The drider can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make a check.
Sunlight Sensitivity: While in sunlight, the drider has disadvantage on attack rolls, as well as on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
Web Walker: The drider ignores movement restrictions caused by webbing.
ACTIONS
Multiattack: The drider makes three attacks either with its longsword or its longbow. It can replace on of those attacks with a bite attack.
Bite Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5ft. One creature. Hit: 2(1d4) piercing damage plus 9 (2d8) poison damage.
Longsword Melee weapon attack: +3 to hit, reach 5ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d8 + 1) slashing damage, or 6 (1d10 + 1) slashing damage if used with two hands.
Longbow: Ranged weapon attack: +4 to hit, range 150/600 ft, one target. Hit: 5(1d8+1) piercing damage.

Just as an eyeball, it looks about as strong as an Ogre (59 hit points, AC 11, 1 attack at +6 dealing 2d8+4 damage). The Drider has 50 percent less HP, deals more damage per round (but with a lower bonus to hit), has a slightly higher AC, a few utility spell like abilities. Based on that its CR 2.

That said, it can easily cling to a wall or ceiling outside the melee range of the party, and fire its bow 3/ round. Which could be a problem for low level PCs who lack effective ranged options. That pushes it to CR 3 (if in doubt I err on the side of the PCs).

As a side note, it doesnt need spider climb at will with a natural climb speed. I'd replace this with web 1/day (but definately have its CR at 3 if you do). Id also reduce the attacks to 2 via multiattack that must be [1 bite + 1 weapon] so its less swingy and has a more predictable DPR.

I'd then add a rider effect to the bite attack (DC 12 save or be poisoned for 1 minute, failure by 5 or more = sleep similar to Drow knockout poison) and replace the bow with a hand crossbow and the sword with a shortsword (because; Drow) and add a weaker version of the poison to the weapon attacks (smaller damage, no rider).

Something like: Mutiattack. The Drider makes 1 bite attack and 1 weapon attack.

Bite +4, 1d4+1 piercing. On a hit, the creature takes an additional +2d8 poison damage and must succed in a DC 12 Con save. On a success the creature takes half poison damage. On a failure the creature is poisoned for 1 hour. On a failure by 5 or more, the creature is unconcious for 1 minute or until woken.

and either: sword/ hand crossbow +4 to hit and 1d6+1 piercing and 1d6 poison.

Now you can have it start the encounter hidden (DC 18 to spot), and during round 1 when the party are likely surprised, it can lob a Web at them. From there it can crawl around on the wed (thanks to its webwalking ability) biting them and taking potshots at them or poking them.

CR3 with web and the poison KO ability.

[Iceking]

Something like: Mutiattack. The Drider makes 1 bite attack and 1 weapon attack.

Bite +4, 1d4+1 piercing. On a hit, the creature takes an additional +2d8 poison damage and must succed in a DC 12 Con save. On a success the creature takes half poison damage. On a failure the creature is poisoned for 1 hour. On a failure by 5 or more, the creature is unconcious for 1 minute or until woken.

and either: sword/ hand crossbow +4 to hit and 1d6+1 piercing and 1d6 poison.

Now you can have it start the encounter hidden (DC 18 to spot), and during round 1 when the party are likely surprised, it can lob a Web at them. From there it can crawl around on the wed (thanks to its webwalking ability) biting them and taking potshots at them or poking them.

CR3 with web and the poison KO ability.

I love the way you think, but if I change it like this, my players will not survive this as they will probably be only lvl2 at the time of the fight. I dont know if I mentioned this before, but none of them have experience in playing d&d. (exept for first session)

For this reason I need to build this Drider to be a tough, but not invincible challenge for the characters. (Wouldnt want to demotivate them by killing them this fast)

[Yuki Akuma]

If you increased its Dex mod by one, its damage for its longbow should be 6(1d8+2), not 5(1d8+1).

[Malifice]

I love the way you think, but if I change it like this, my players will not survive this as they will probably be only lvl2 at the time of the fight. I dont know if I mentioned this before, but none of them have experience in playing d&d. (exept for first session)

For this reason I need to build this Drider to be a tough, but not invincible challenge for the characters. (Wouldnt want to demotivate them by killing them this fast)

Go easy then mate, and be prepared to roll 'behind the screen' so you can fudge a few for them if it goes south.

Err on the side of caution with the design too.

Whats the party composition if you dont mind me asking?

[Iceking]

Go easy then mate, and be prepared to roll 'behind the screen' so you can fudge a few for them if it goes south.

Err on the side of caution with the design too.

Whats the party composition if you dont mind me asking?

I'm planning to fudge if needed, but rather have the challange to be at par instead of "frauding" the hard challenge.

They play with a wizard, a monk and a paladin.
There should be 1 more character comming, but the player cant join us in het first sessions.

[Malifice]

I'm planning to fudge if needed, but rather have the challange to be at par instead of "frauding" the hard challenge.

They play with a wizard, a monk and a paladin.
There should be 1 more character comming, but the player cant join us in het first sessions.

The Paladin should be OK (if fully rested and able to smite a few times). The Wizard can strafe it with magic missile. The monk cant do too much, but monks do have pretty good damage at low level before it peters out.

Id definately tone it down on this party though, particularly if they hit this thing after a few encounters and down on resources.

Its better to play safe than to overwhelm them.

[Iceking]

The Paladin should be OK (if fully rested and able to smite a few times). The Wizard can strafe it with magic missile. The monk cant do too much, but monks do have pretty good damage at low level before it peters out.

Id definately tone it down on this party though, particularly if they hit this thing after a few encounters and down on resources.

Its better to play safe than to overwhelm them.

Will they still have the same feeling in that fight (that's she's a tough one)

I still hope they can roleplay to her, so she can be their ally instead of enemy for the rest of the story :-D
But i wont mind playing her as enemy.
Just hope that they see her as a sort of end boss, without dieing

[NewDM]

I'm planning to fudge if needed, but rather have the challange to be at par instead of "frauding" the hard challenge.

They play with a wizard, a monk and a paladin.
There should be 1 more character comming, but the player cant join us in het first sessions.

I'm sorry but in 5E before level 5, the dice tell you who wins the fights not the strategy of the players or the monsters. That's just how it was designed. A lot of people start their players at level 3 to try to avoid this. At level 2 a couple of lucky hits by anything in the MM will drop players.

Average hp by class at level 2 (guesstimation):
Fighter/Barbarian/Monk: 20-26
Rogue/Cleric: 16-20
Warlock/Sorcerer/Wizard: 12-18

Average damage of monsters up to CR 2:
3-12

That means the Arcane casters can go down to a single lucky hit or a few regular hits. The Melee/ranged classes can go down to 2-3 lucky hits or 4 hits. The Rogue/Cleric can go down to 2 lucky hits or 3 hits.

I suggest if you don't want them to die to level them up by quests or just jump them to level 3. Otherwise you'll be fudging the dice quite a bit.