Pass Without Trace

[Grod_The_Giant]

Am I reading the spell wrong, or does it actually give a ginormous, unlimited, bounded accuracy breaking boost to Stealth for the entire party?

[Kryx]

Yup, it's amazingly powerful. My ranger uses it all the time.

Seems a bit anti-fun as it's a pretty much auto-succeed. I'd prefer advantage, but I'm not in the mood to take toys away this time.

[Shining Wrath]

For people within 30' of you with concentration required, but yes, +10 is the biggest bonus to a skill check I can think of.

[Specter]

Nope, totally awesome. That's why I always say Assassin builds benefit more from Ranger levels than Fighter levels.

[RickAllison]

Nope, totally awesome. That's why I always say Assassin builds benefit more from Ranger levels than Fighter levels.

See, I prefer three levels of Druid. The idea of a thief or assassin who can be an innocuous animal by appearance seems terrifying. Other rogues attempt to be quiet as a mouse, three levels of Druid lets you BE the mouse.

[DracoKnight]

Nope, totally awesome. That's why I always say Assassin builds benefit more from Ranger levels than Fighter levels.

I personally prefer 3 levels of Trickery Cleric :smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

Am I reading the spell wrong, or does it actually give a ginormous, unlimited, bounded accuracy breaking boost to Stealth for the entire party? How is this boundary accuracy breaking? Invisibility doesn't break bounded accuracy. How does this spell, a limited resource, break something. First of all, the spell has to be prepared/chosen (spell slots are not infinite) and secondly expending a spell slot ought to provide a benefit.

Note: concentration spell.
Note: duration of one hour
Note: can still be traced by magical means
Note: expends a 2d level slot

What's the point of having a druid in your party if he/she can't give you benefits in natural settings?

[Kryx]

Invisibility does not make you unheard.

+10 makes it very difficult for a group to fail a group stealth check.

[Grod_The_Giant]

How is this boundary accuracy breaking?
It's a second level spell that makes the entire party, at minimum, about as good at stealth as a 20th level character. It's not a new tool, it's a flat boost far larger than anything else in the game. It's the sort of "casters do it better" thing that new editions were supposed to eliminate.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's a second level spell that makes the entire party, at minimum, about as good at stealth as a 20th level character. And it costs a spell slot, which are finite. Opportunity Cost. The 20th level doesn't have to spend a spell slot.

We are back to how many encounters per day are you involved in? 1 or 2? 5 or 6? how many spells does the Druid have per day? What spell can't you use when you have to use this to be sneaky.

@Kryx: good point.

[RickAllison]

One thing that should always be kept in mind with this spell is that some senses bypass it completely. All it takes is one creature with tremor sense or true sight to make that clanker REALLY stand out.

[Specter]

See, I prefer three levels of Druid. The idea of a thief or assassin who can be an innocuous animal by appearance seems terrifying. Other rogues attempt to be quiet as a mouse, three levels of Druid lets you BE the mouse.

Good idea, actually. I mentioned ranger because it's one of the three classes that gives you Extra Attack and Fighting Style, which are dandy with Assassinate.


I personally prefer 3 levels of Trickery Cleric :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, could work too. Don't like the other features, though.

[DracoKnight]

Yeah, could work too. Don't like the other features, though.

Oh, but they're amazing for Assassins.

Blessing of the Trickster really SHOULD be allowed to apply to self, but let's look at the Channel Divinity: Invoke Duplicity.

You know have advantage to kill the person you snuck up on, AND if you need to make a getaway, your pursuer now has two targets to chase. :smallsmile:

[MaxWilson]

Am I reading the spell wrong, or does it actually give a ginormous, unlimited, bounded accuracy breaking boost to Stealth for the entire party?

Bounded Accuracy is a DM-side concept, not a PC concept. Bounded Accuracy is the concept that there shouldn't be an arms race between PC stats and monster stats. If the DM starts giving all the monsters passive Perception of 25 to compensate for Pass Without Trace, now someone has broken bounded accuracy, and it wasn't the PCs.

So just don't break bounded accuracy. Let the PCs be good at the things they're good at. If that means someone is amazing at being Batman in cluttered terrain with lots of hiding places, then they're good at it. If you as a DM want to challenge them, do it by some means other than just cranking up the monster bonuses. Change up the terrains, use traps as well as monsters, use a few monsters that operate based on smell instead of sight/sound (my Black Puddings ignore stealth because they smell with their pores), etc. Don't do it all the time, but do it enough to keep the game interesting. Just, whatever you do, don't raise the monster Perception scores by +10 across the board.

[MaxWilson]

And it costs a spell slot, which are finite. Opportunity Cost. The 20th level doesn't have to spend a spell slot.

We are back to how many encounters per day are you involved in? 1 or 2? 5 or 6? how many spells does the Druid have per day? What spell can't you use when you have to use this to be sneaky.

@Kryx: good point.

And that is why Shadow Monks are awesome, because for them there basically isn't any opportunity cost, aside from not being able to concentrate on Darkness.

When you can cast Pass Without Trace five to ten times per short rest, you can basically afford to have it up all the time. I can't think of a better use of ki.

[AvatarVecna]

There's more than a few points in the game that make it obvious Stealth is basically the super-exception to balance: the existence of Silence, Pass Without Trace, and Invisibility can make Stealth a non-roll from level 3 on up, The Cloak of Elvenkind gives advantage on the Stealth roll while giving disadvantage on Perception rolls to detect you, there's multiple races with a form of HiPS as a racial feature, cover/concealment is easy to find/make, and there's even an epic boon that gives another unbounded +10 to Stealth and (IIRC) gives you a form of HiPS.

EDIT: A Lightfoot Halfling Thief 17/Druid 3 with an epic boon can be looking at Stealth +44 with advantage on the roll and disadvantage for anybody trying to find them.

[Xetheral]

Maybe the "idea" behind the spell was to permit parties with a a dex-dumping heavy armor user to be able to make a stealth check for time to time, and that's why the bonus is so large? The problem only comes when you apply the bonus on top of a character who is already skilled and operating alone (or with an equally skilled group or, if you use group checks, then half the group). But to get the weakest-link up from -1 with disadvantage to something that lets the party have a chance-worth-trying of sneaking past something you need a bonus that big.

[rhouck]

+10 makes it very difficult for a group to fail a group stealth check.

Which is a great reason not to do group checks for stealth. Group checks make sense for things where a few characters can realistically help the rest to not fail (e.g., the PHB example of Survival checks to navigate a swamp and avoid walking into a sinkhole, or getting lost). But it makes little sense why the bumbling fighter in noisy plate is suddenly silent as a mouse because he's walking next to a sneaky rogue.

[Shining Wrath]

There's more than a few points in the game that make it obvious Stealth is basically the super-exception to balance: the existence of Silence, Pass Without Trace, and Invisibility can make Stealth a non-roll from level 3 on up, The Cloak of Elvenkind gives advantage on the Stealth roll while giving disadvantage on Perception rolls to detect you, there's multiple races with a form of HiPS as a racial feature, cover/concealment is easy to find/make, and there's even an epic boon that gives another unbounded +10 to Stealth and (IIRC) gives you a form of HiPS.

EDIT: A Lightfoot Halfling Thief 17/Druid 3 with an epic boon can be looking at Stealth +44 with advantage on the roll and disadvantage for anybody trying to find them.

Silence has to be cast on a fixed point in space, not on a moveable object. I clarified this with Crawford via tweet. You can get by one check point per casting. There's no guarantee you'll ever find the Cloak of Elvenkind, and Epic boons are also purely DM choice.


Which is a great reason not to do group checks for stealth. Group checks make sense for things where a few characters can realistically help the rest to not fail (e.g., the PHB example of Survival checks to navigate a swamp and avoid walking into a sinkhole, or getting lost). But it makes little sense why the bumbling fighter in noisy plate is suddenly silent as a mouse because he's walking next to a sneaky rogue.

My way of DMing stealth is to have the party (of 6) roll and throw out the two low rolls - the party "helps" one another but can still fail.

[uraniumrooster]

Which is a great reason not to do group checks for stealth. Group checks make sense for things where a few characters can realistically help the rest to not fail (e.g., the PHB example of Survival checks to navigate a swamp and avoid walking into a sinkhole, or getting lost). But it makes little sense why the bumbling fighter in noisy plate is suddenly silent as a mouse because he's walking next to a sneaky rogue.

There are plenty of examples of what amount to group stealth checks in fiction. It's a bit of a trope, but imagine this scene... the Party is trying to sneak past an enemy patrol, but the clumsy one steps on a twig or makes some other noise that causes the patrol to go on alert. A more competent group member grabs the clumsy one and pulls them behind a tree, hand over their mouth, while the guards pass by. Effectively, the competent character's high stealth roll compensated for the clumsy character's low stealth roll. They passed the group stealth check, even though they didn't both pass the check individually.

Would it work in real life? Probably not (but honestly, I can't really say... I'd be a prime candidate for "the clumsy one" IRL). But it works in fiction, and D&D definitely qualifies as fiction. As a DM, it just comes down to how you spin the narrative.

[AvatarVecna]

Silence has to be cast on a fixed point in space, not on a moveable object. I clarified this with Crawford via tweet. You can get by one check point per casting. There's no guarantee you'll ever find the Cloak of Elvenkind, and Epic boons are also purely DM choice.

Fair enough. So! Assuming the same build, but with absolutely no magic items whatsoever, we'd instead be looking at...
+27 Stealth Check (Dex +5, Expertise +12, Pass Without Trace +10)
Advantage on the roll (Supreme Sneak)
Rolls below 10 count as 10 (Reliable Talent)
Being Lightly Obscured is sufficient (Skulker feat)

Taking away the Epic Boon is fairly reasonable, for sure; I've yet to even hear of a 5e game going beyond level 20. And you've a fair point about Silence...but the rest of it is still reasonably stealthy. And true, magic items are not assumed...although I've yet to play or see a game above 5th level that had absolutely no magic items. An Ioun Stone Of Mastery might be considered a bit much, as would the books necessary to raise Dex to 30, but a Cloak of Elvenkind? A Stone of Good Luck? They're not exactly artifacts.

EDIT: And virtually no other skill in the game is capable of stacking anywhere near this many bonuses together, even without all the magic item boosters.

[Kryx]

Which is a great reason not to do group checks for stealth. Group checks make sense for things where a few characters can realistically help the rest to not fail (e.g., the PHB example of Survival checks to navigate a swamp and avoid walking into a sinkhole, or getting lost). But it makes little sense why the bumbling fighter in noisy plate is suddenly silent as a mouse because he's walking next to a sneaky rogue.
Huh, I never thought about it like this.

[Shining Wrath]

Fair enough. So! Assuming the same build, but with absolutely no magic items whatsoever, we'd instead be looking at...
+27 Stealth Check (Dex +5, Expertise +12, Pass Without Trace +10)
Advantage on the roll (Supreme Sneak)
Rolls below 10 count as 10 (Reliable Talent)
Being Lightly Obscured is sufficient (Skulker feat)

Taking away the Epic Boon is fairly reasonable, for sure; I've yet to even hear of a 5e game going beyond level 20. And you've a fair point about Silence...but the rest of it is still reasonably stealthy. And true, magic items are not assumed...although I've yet to play or see a game above 5th level that had absolutely no magic items. An Ioun Stone Of Mastery might be considered a bit much, as would the books necessary to raise Dex to 30, but a Cloak of Elvenkind? A Stone of Good Luck? They're not exactly artifacts.

EDIT: And virtually no other skill in the game is capable of stacking anywhere near this many bonuses together, even without all the magic item boosters.

Right! A character built for stealth can achieve epic levels of stealth. And a good DM should make that ability very useful sometimes, to reward the player; and useless some others, to challenge the player. Of course, a character built for stealth cannot be equally built for perception, for combat, for disarming traps, and everything else - so if you're going to routinely go into danger alone, sooner or later you're going to wind up manacled to the dungeon wall while the BBEG monologues about his plan MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

[Corran]

Nope, totally awesome. That's why I always say Assassin builds benefit more from Ranger levels than Fighter levels.
I prefer a heavy investent on sorcerer, finally up to 13-14ish level for etherealness (and many other stuff along the way), as it is better to rely on weapon cantrips than actual attacks because of how common multiclassing is to making assassin builds. Found it plays better during normal encounters. Secondarily, warlock, mostly for mask of many faces, tons of fun! Back on topic, yeah, it's an awesome spell, definite pick for anyone with access to it.

[AvatarVecna]

Right! A character built for stealth can achieve epic levels of stealth. And a good DM should make that ability very useful sometimes, to reward the player; and useless some others, to challenge the player. Of course, a character built for stealth cannot be equally built for perception, for combat, for disarming traps, and everything else - so if you're going to routinely go into danger alone, sooner or later you're going to wind up manacled to the dungeon wall while the BBEG monologues about his plan MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

The problem isn't "a character built for stealth cannot be equally good at perception at the same time", it's "a character built to optimize stealth can sneak past a monster built to optimize perception every time". Only another character built to optimize perception even has a chance...and even then, it's a low chance: assuming a similar Perception-focused Rogue build with the Observant feat, the super-stealth guy has to beat Passive Perception of 32...with a +27 bonus, advantage, and a minimum roll of 10. If it's instead an actual opposed roll, with the person actively searching, then it's "Perception +17 minimum 10" vs "Stealth +27 with advantage minimum 10".

Where the stealth-master has a natural source of advantage (the Supreme Sneak class feature), the perception-master does not, and it makes a world of difference: when the person with the Observant feat, Wis 20, and Perception Expertise has a 0% chance of passively catching the sneaky character, and a 1.25% chance of actively catching the sneaky character, it speaks to the balance of the stealth system. Of course, if they have a source of advantage (*cough*magic items*cough*), it becomes more balanced...but when you have to give one side magic items and the other side nothing to make them balanced, it speaks to how well the system is balanced.

As a final point, it's worth pointing out that all of the above is assuming character vs character, which rarely happens. You know how many monsters, even humanoids, have proficiency in Perception? A decent number, to be sure. You know how many have Wisdom 20? Basically none. You know how many have expertise? Basically none. You know how many have a natural source of advantage? Basically none. You know how many have the Observant feat? None. To have a chance at detecting that stealth expert, you need high Wisdom, expertise, the Observant feat, a high proficiency bonus, and a ludicrous amount of luck.

Without magic items, optimized stealth beats optimized perception either absolutely every time, or basically every time. Without any restrictions on magic items (or anything else), it's even more unbalanced. But don't worry, the DM can always rebalance the game to make the Stealthy guy not nearly as OP...but here's the thing: the fact that a DM can use Rule 0 to make something not overpowered is a sign that it's overpowered.

EDIT: Also, rogues get tons of proficiencies, 4 expertise's, Sneak Attack, and Reliable Talent on any skill they're proficient in. So yes, it is, in fact, entirely possible, to have a character that can fight well, sneak around completely undetected, disarm traps with impunity, and see basically anybody else sneaking around (unless they're another super-stealther exactly like them).

[MaxWilson]

The problem isn't "a character built for stealth cannot be equally good at perception at the same time", it's "a character built to optimize stealth can sneak past a monster built to optimize perception every time".

So, you're saying you think you could sneak past Tucker's Kobolds?

Traps don't rely on Perception.

[Arial Black]

The spell is called 'Pass WITHOUT TRACE!'

There shouldn't be a Stealth check required at all! There should be no trace of you!

If they go against the spirit of the spell and say that there are traces that can be detected, then it's reasonable that the recipients of this spell still have a superb chance to remain undetected.

[AvatarVecna]

So, you're saying you think you could sneak past Tucker's Kobolds?

Traps don't rely on Perception.

It's worth mentioning that all of this discussion is focusing around the high-end of both skill-op and level to show off why something like Pass Without Trace breaks balance; I don't know about you, but between kobolds with traps and a Thief 17/Druid 3, my money's on the latter. so no, traps don't rely on Perception...but they do rely on being undetected by the trap disarmer.

[Temperjoke]

The spell is called 'Pass WITHOUT TRACE!'

There shouldn't be a Stealth check required at all! There should be no trace of you!

If they go against the spirit of the spell and say that there are traces that can be detected, then it's reasonable that the recipients of this spell still have a superb chance to remain undetected.

Eh, I think there should be a check; haven't you ever had the random sensation that someone was close by, and it turned out to be someone trying to sneak up on you? Not saying it should be easy for the enemy, but a check can account for a gut feeling someone might have, you know, the guard that goes "It's too quiet..." a second before he gets stabbed by the infiltration team.

[Naanomi]

Observant 20 Wis ranger in favored terrain against favored enemy is... 10+5+5+5+12 passive perception. My build like this also has Guidance for another d4 so end passive perception 37? And more able to benefit from bard song if available?

Stealth still wins but can be closer than it seems

[Arial Black]

Eh, I think there should be a check; haven't you ever had the random sensation that someone was close by, and it turned out to be someone trying to sneak up on you? Not saying it should be easy for the enemy, but a check can account for a gut feeling someone might have, you know, the guard that goes "It's too quiet..." a second before he gets stabbed by the infiltration team.

Oh, you mean...that there is a trace...?

Invisibility makes you INvisible, not partly invisible, not translucent. If you are sensed, it isn't through the sense of sight but by senses which are not fooled by lack of visibility.

But if you leave NO trace...!

(Actually, I'm sanguine about the roll; I just think that complaining about the size of the Stealth bonus is missing the point...)

[AvatarVecna]

Observant 20 Wis ranger in favored terrain against favored enemy is... 10+5+5+5+12 passive perception. My build like this also has Guidance for another d4 so end passive perception 37? And more able to benefit from bard song if available?

Stealth still wins but can be closer than it seems

Base 10, Wisdom 5, Observant 5, Terrain Expertise 12 makes 32. If you had advantage, it would be 37, yes, but Favored Enemy gives advantage on Survival checks to track them (and Int-based checks to recall info on them), not on Perception checks; admittedly, I think the idea of not getting advantage vs Favored enemies is kinda stupid, but them's the rules. Of course, in the event that you somehow get advantage to Perception checks from somewhere else, that brings your Passive Perception up to 37, which is just high enough to make the super-stealth-person actually roll: your odds of detecting them passively are right around 25% if you have advantage, but it's entirely dependent on their Stealth roll, not your Perception roll (since you're not rolling); as a DM, I'd likely allow you to add Guidance to your passive, since it's a cantrip, but since the bonus it provides is variable, some might not. Of course, Guidance can be used to aid stealth as well (although that gets into an argument about verbal components being used to sneak around, which is an entirely different debate).

I'm not concerned with how high the bonus is, but rather how easy it is to optimize in comparison to other skills...particularly Perception, which it's supposed to be opposed to. I can accept the idea that basically no monster can sneak past a Perception-optimized PC, and that a Stealth-optimized PC can sneak past any monster, but the issue comes in where a Stealth-optimized PC is basically guaranteed to sneak past a Perception-optimized PC. The fact that magic items make it even more unbalanced doesn't help.

EDIT: I'm assuming that the decision to make Stealth easier to optimize than Perception (and other skills) was more a deliberate design decision rather than an unintentional side effect, but it makes me wonder why they want any skill to be more easily optimized than any other.

[Naanomi]

What is the monster with the highest passive perception/active perception? Might be fun to see where 'maximum practical stealth' sits at?

[rhouck]

What is the monster with the highest passive perception/active perception? Might be fun to see where 'maximum practical stealth' sits at?

Ancient Gold Dragon has +17 (27), Red +16 (26). Not sure if any others have higher.

[uraniumrooster]

What is the monster with the highest passive perception/active perception? Might be fun to see where 'maximum practical stealth' sits at?

She's definitely an outlier, and not actually in the MM, but Tiamat has a +26 Perception (36 Passive).

[Naanomi]

She's definitely an outlier, and not actually in the MM, but Tiamat has a +26 Perception (36 Passive).
Alright so she can roll a 46 when actively searching... and you can roll a 1... so you'd need +35 to be completely undetectable to Tiamat. +12 Expertise, +5 Dexterity, +10 Pass Without Trace gets us to +27; we need +8 more that is always-on (so Guidance and Bardsong and the like are out); what items besides Ion Stone (for +2) would help?

[RickAllison]

She's definitely an outlier, and not actually in the MM, but Tiamat has a +26 Perception (36 Passive).

Also, don't forget that she (and some other monsters) have true sight. So when you figure Tiamat or other creatures with that, subtract the +10 due to Pass Without Trace (might also work for senses like blindsight).

[AvatarVecna]

Alright so she can roll a 46 when actively searching... and you can roll a 1... so you'd need +35 to be completely undetectable to Tiamat. +12 Expertise, +5 Dexterity, +10 Pass Without Trace gets us to +27; we need +8 more that is always-on (so Guidance and Bardsong and the like are out); what items besides Ion Stone (for +2) would help?

Point of order: you need to beat her Perception score to remain undetected, not tie with it, and Reliable Talent sets your minimum die roll to 10, effectively.

Cloak of Elvenkind gives Tiamat disadvantage on her roll, and gives you advantage on yours, so it should be included. Stone Of Good Luck gives a +1 to all ability checks; Ioun Stone of Dexterity (whatever it's called) gives +2 Dex for another +1; Ioun Stone Of Mastery gives +2 (because it increase proficiency bonus by 1 and you have Expertise). This gives you a bonus of +31 (Dex 6+Expertise 14+Luckstone 1+Pass Without Trace 1), which you can supplement with Guidance (the bonus is variable, but it's always at least +1, so that's our assumption), bringing it up to at least +32. Of course, the Epic Boon makes this all incredibly easy (Dex 5+Expertise 12+Pass Without Trace 10+Epic Boon 10=+37), but without that, there's always a chance that Tiamat will detect you.

+32 with advantage, minimum 10

vs

+26 with disadvantage

The odds of Tiamat detecting this stealth-focused person, assuming round-to-round Guidance and no other sources of advantage/disadvantage for either side, hover somewhere right around .5%; admittedly, not a guarantee, but certainly not the kind of thing you'd bet on. It should be mentioned, though, that even a character just short of an epic boon would be wary of that ~1/200 chance of getting detected...because Tiamat is not the kind of character you try and solo without a seriously stacked deck. Luckily, this kind of set-up is pretty stacked.

It should be mentioned that, even with out the Epic Boon, you can use the Attribute boosting books to get Dex to 30 for an additional 4 points, which (along with the assumed +1 from Guidance) takes this from a .5% chance to a 0% chance of being detected.

[AvatarVecna]

Also, don't forget that she (and some other monsters) have true sight. So when you figure Tiamat or other creatures with that, subtract the +10 due to Pass Without Trace (might also work for senses like blindsight).

Truesight no-sells illusions; Pass Without Trace is an abjuration, so whether Truesight no-sells it is definitely at best debatable. Now, Blindsight, on the other hand, I imagine would entirely negate hiding at all, so that's something worth mentioning.

EDIT: Of course, Truesight also auto-detects invisible creatures, and hiding makes you count as invisible (IIRC) for the purposes...but since you're not actually invisible, I wouldn't think Truesight automatically no-sells regular hiding either.

[Naanomi]

...Cloak of Elvenkind gives Tiamat disadvantage on her roll, and gives you advantage on yours...

...The odds of Tiamat detecting this stealth-focused person, assuming round-to-round Guidance...
There is a big difference between 'almost never detected' and 'undetectable'. Advantage/Disadvantage mean less chance, but don't do anything to push us over that final limit... and Guidance's verbal components seem to be an issue to me, so I don't add it

Reliable Talent is great point though; at 10+10+12+5=37 with a target of 47 (good call on the needing to beat) without magic items or other enhancements

[AvatarVecna]

There is a big difference between 'almost never detected' and 'undetectable'. Advantage/Disadvantage mean less chance, but don't do anything to push us over that final limit... and Guidance's verbal components seem to be an issue to me, so I don't add it

Reliable Talent is great point though; at 10+10+12+5=37 with a target of 47 (good call on the needing to beat) without magic items or other enhancements

Assuming Dex 30 (from a combination of Ioun Stone and Books), assuming proficiency +7 (from Ioun Stone), expertise +7, Luckstone +1, Pass Without Trace +10, total of +35.

1d20+35, advantage, minimum 10.

1d20+26, disadvantage.

After reviewing the numbers, and the calculations, the odds of such a person successfully sneaking past Tiamat is ~99.74% (159579/160000 chance).

EDIT: I see your point on Guidance, and I feel it's fair to keep Guidance out.'

EDIT: As always, Expertise+Pass Without Trace+Epic Boon basically makes the whole thing moot.

[RickAllison]

Truesight no-sells illusions; Pass Without Trace is an abjuration, so whether Truesight no-sells it is definitely at best debatable. Now, Blindsight, on the other hand, I imagine would entirely negate hiding at all, so that's something worth mentioning.

EDIT: Of course, Truesight also auto-detects invisible creatures, and hiding makes you count as invisible (IIRC) for the purposes...but since you're not actually invisible, I wouldn't think Truesight automatically no-sells regular hiding either.

It also sees through magical darkness. The description of PWT says that the users are cloaked in a "veil of shadows". It would be entirely reasonable to rule that true sight bypasses it (and so would Devil's Sight).

I'm okay with this. It's a fantastically powerful spell for its level, but there are a few abilities that can spoil it. That is how the game is supposed to work.

[AvatarVecna]

It also sees through magical darkness. The description of PWT says that the users are cloaked in a "veil of shadows". It would be entirely reasonable to rule that true sight bypasses it (and so would Devil's Sight).

I'm okay with this. It's a fantastically powerful spell for its level, but there are a few abilities that can spoil it. That is how the game is supposed to work.

I absolutely agree regarding RAI, it's just that the RAW doesn't support that. that's definitely what would happen in a real game, though; Truesight beating PWT, that is.

[RickAllison]

I absolutely agree regarding RAI, it's just that the RAW doesn't support that. that's definitely what would happen in a real game, though; Truesight beating PWT, that is.

I can see that :smallsmile: In any case, a level 17+ demigod who has built himself for Stealth seems like he should be at a level where he can hide from gods. Even with the RAI, it makes perfect sense to me that the Rogue/Bard can still use PWT to travel from cover to cover to take advantage of the silencing properties. That just seems like what such a demigod would do!

[JackPhoenix]

Even this setup with crazy stealth bonus is far from undefeatable.

Well-lit security perimeter of at least 120' with no cover (no stealth if you have nothing to hide behind), trained guards who can see each other all the time(so you can't stealthily take out one and sneak through resulting hole), guard dogs (hello advantage on smell or sound based perception checks...and Pass Without Trace can't be tracked by smell, but can arguably still be detected. Also works against invisible foes) and few Alarm spells in strategic places (any (variant) human with ritual caster can do that, or apprentice mage fresh from the school on his first job) is a cheap and simple, yet surprisingly effective setup.

Honestly, I'm surprised guard dogs (or other animals) aren't used more often in D&D. Many evil warlords, sinister cults, murderous criminals and dark mages would still be alive today if they invested few gold pieces into these simple, yet effective security measures. Order yours right now!

[KorvinStarmast]

The spell is called 'Pass WITHOUT TRACE!'

There shouldn't be a Stealth check required at all! There should be no trace of you!

If they go against the spirit of the spell and say that there are traces that can be detected, then it's reasonable that the recipients of this spell still have a superb chance to remain undetected. A fair point, but it is a second level spell.

@Avatarvecna

A Lightfoot Halfling Thief 17/Druid 3 with an epic boon can be looking at Stealth +44 with advantage on the roll and disadvantage for anybody trying to find them.
When you've played that Halfling druid from 1-20, come back and tell us how it went. (Having played a lot of thieves and druids in my day, and no few hobbits/halflings, that looks like it could be immense fun).


In any case, a level 17+ demigod who has built himself for Stealth seems like he should be at a level where he can hide from gods. Even with the RAI, it makes perfect sense to me that the Rogue/Bard can still use PWT to travel from cover to cover to take advantage of the silencing properties. That just seems like what such a demigod would do! Yep, there are some rewards for specialization.

I find discussions of a given skill or spell In Isolation one of the most annoying features of these forums. The game isn't played in a vacuum. The only good that this approach evokes is challenges and enforced broadening of the context/environment that such skills and spells are used in.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Even this setup with crazy stealth bonus is far from undefeatable.
If you're routinely beating Impossible DCs by almost 10 points, I'm pretty sure you could waltz past even elaborate mundane preparations.

[JackPhoenix]

If you're routinely beating Impossible DCs by almost 10 points, I'm pretty sure you could waltz past even elaborate mundane preparations.

It doesn't matter how high your stealth bonus is if you automaticaly fail because there's no source of cover or obscurement and the guards can clearly see you. Invisibility helps with that, but it needs concentration, thus no combination with Pass Without Trace. With +17 Stealth, the rogue would autosucceed even against guard dog's passive Perception 18 (13 base + advantage on smell or hearing based perception checks). But in that case, we're talking about setup available at level 1 against level 17+ character, of course he's that good. But if the guards had Ritual Caster (to set up the Alarm), they could also have bat familiars...and Invisibility won't help against blindsight 60', you can't hide from a creature that can plainly "see" you, even if the "seeing" in question if actually echolocation. For that, you'd need Silence...and that's immobile effect that also needs concentration.

[Shining Wrath]

I recall a Doctor Strange comic from my misspent youth where his enemy Baron Mondo (sp?) had stolen a book from the Vatican's library, and Dr. Strange said "Poor Baron. After all the care he took to bypass the Vatican Libraries' magical protections, he was photographed by a mundane security camera".

Which is to say, a stealth score of +Yes with a circumstance bonus of +OhYes can be defeated by a door. The PC may be completely and absolutely undetectable, but the bad guys don't need to see the PC, they just need to see that the door has opened, and respond. For example, the alarm gong is struck, and the only other door into this room opens and 2N orcs enter the room, where N is the number of "spaces". And the orcs know there's someone in the room and are trying to find that person using touch. And the roof is low enough the orcs can reach it, and they've been trained to search the floor as well. The same thing is happening in the room on the other side of the door in case the PC opened the door and didn't pass through.

This may seem like overkill, but we are talking about a high level adventurer, the BBEG gets to use lots of resources to defend his lair. A couple of dozen orcs at a check point isn't "cheating".

[Coffee_Dragon]

Baron Mordo's Law: You cannot and should not balance low-level spells by putting security cameras in your libraries.

[Tanarii]

It doesn't matter how high your stealth bonus is if you automaticaly fail because there's no source of cover or obscurement and the guards can clearly see you.This is the key point, at least until magic comes into the equation. Even with the Skulker feat, all it takes is a torch or a lantern pointed in the wrong direction at the wrong time and you're revealed. Without it, you need to be in full darkness or behind complete cover/concealment to remain hidden.

Pass Without Trace gives you a big bonus to Stealth, but it doesn't change the requirements to use stealth in the first place.

[Arial Black]

This is the key point, at least until magic comes into the equation. Even with the Skulker feat, all it takes is a torch or a lantern pointed in the wrong direction at the wrong time and you're revealed. Without it, you need to be in full darkness or behind complete cover/concealment to remain hidden.

Pass Without Trace gives you a big bonus to Stealth, but it doesn't change the requirements to use stealth in the first place.

Doesn't the spell cause shadows to help you?

[Tanarii]

Doesn't the spell cause shadows to help you?Not ones that give any mechanical ability to hide. Nothing says they provide concealment or Heavily or Lightly Obscure. They're fluff for the +10 bonus to stealth, they don't enable stealth.

[RickAllison]

Not ones that give any mechanical ability to hide. Nothing says they provide concealment or Heavily or Lightly Obscure. They're fluff for the +10 bonus to stealth, they don't enable stealth.

Which is a good thing, because otherwise Truesight/Devil's Sight would negate the visible portion anyway.