Help with Snake Barbarian Totem Spirit

[Diebo]

My brother is playing a human barbarian, and wanted to use snake as his totem. We're playing with standard array. He has 18 STR, 14 CON, and 14 DEX, and refuses to wear armor or use a shield for flavor reasons. He gets hit a lot, and we don't have a cleric in the party. We are just hitting level 6, and he has not been using his level 3 homebrew snake ability (basically a grapple trait). So the DM came up with the following:

Level 3: "Quickness of the Snake". While raging while not wearing heavy armor you receive +2AC and the first attack against you that you can see each turn is at disadvantage (free one-time dodge). If the attacker misses, you may riposte adding 1d8 poison damage to the attack.

Level 6: Snake - You gain the vibration sense of a snake. Blindsight to 30 feet for objects or creatures moving or touching the ground. Advantage on all perception and initiative against creatures moving near you on the ground. Inability to be surprised by creatures moving on the ground (does not include flying creatures). With this ability the player can put their hand on a wall and know whether there are creatures in the next room, and know when they are being charged at and not be surprised by it.

Neither the player or the DM is a min-maxer or rules lawyer. I like to read and know the rules, and it seemed overpowered and not consistent with DND monster manual snakes to me. I recommended:

Level 3: Since he doesn't wear armor anyway, and could wear half plate, I didn't see a big problem with upping his AC by 2 points. Keeping with the quickness theme, I recommended +4 dex while raging (gives +2 AC, and some other bonuses, and stacks with CON AC. For a level 6 character with 14 con, 14 dex - with 1 ASI to get STR to 20, that only leaves 3, so max AC could get to 20). The dodge feature could be similar to the Light Cleric Level 1 warding flare (instead of wisdom and divine light, the dodge is limited by con/long rest and is based on quickness). And no riposte on a miss. (The DM still likes Riposte, but no poison).

Level 6: You gain the Sense of the Snake. You gain blindsight (10'). This is consistent with what snakes get.

My brother is perturbed that I am nerfing his character. Everyone else is stock PHB. So, two things:

1. I am correct that the DM-provided snake spirit/aspect are not balanced with bear/eagle/wolf?

2. Any suggestions on balance?

[DracoKnight]

I like this- and I haven't looked to hard at it for balance issues, but you should ask for this to be moved to the Homebrew forum :smallsmile:

[Misterwhisper]

That is crazy broken.

[DracoKnight]

Having gone back over it in depth, I agree with MisterWhisper.

[Diebo]

Thanks for the quick responses. We haven't used homebrew, so I didn't know about that forum. Sorry! I'd move it if I knew how...

[Misterwhisper]

Try this:

Level 3:

Senses of the Viper: You gain the enhanced senses of the snake, you gain darkvision out to a distance of 60 feet, if you already have darkvision it increases to 90 feet.

Level 6:

Bite of the Asp: The spirits of the snakes have blessed you with their gift of poison. Your teeth become elongated and hollow, you gain a bite attack as a bonus action that can only be used against a grappled or incapacitated foe, this attack does 1d6 piercing damage and the target must make a constitution save vs (8 + your Constitution bonus + your proficiency modifier) or take an additional 2D6 poison damage and gain the poisoned condition for 1 minute, if the target makes it's constitution save it takes half damage and is not poisoned.
Level 14:

Snakebite: You can use your Bite of the Asp ability as a bonus action without having to grapple first or targeting an incapacitated target. In addition you gain expertise in the athletics skill when used to start or maintain a grapple.

[TripleD]

How about level three is something like "Shed Skin: Once per rage you may regain 1/4 of your total HP (rounded down)". It fits with the snake theme, helps someone who is getting hit a lot, and lines up with bear totem (only this time healing instead of preventing damage).

[Foxhound438]

there is a homebrew sub-forum here, you might be able to get some good feedback there:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design

there's not nearly as much traffic there, however, but it's the place for this.

Anyways, yes it's broken as all getout. First ability gives three benefits in one: being static ac boost and a no-reaction required dodge with a free attack tacked on. tell them to chose one.

It's kind of a plague of homebrew i've noticed, everyone wants to cram 5 or so different abilities that on their own are each good enough to be a level feature when you compare to other subclasses of the same class, but when you're getting three of them it's a too-easy value pick.

Second, if you notice all the other totem level 6 abilities are non-combat benefits, like vision and carrying capacity. Maybe just blindsense, and drop the rest.

At the end of the day there's no need for this though, on the premise that he isn't tanky enough- barbarians have a ton of HP and if they want to be tanky they go bear totem for resistance to all damage. Resistance to weapon damage is on its own good enough for barbarians, they don't need high AC too. That's why reckless attack is so good. Everything will hit you anyways, and you really don't care that you get hit. So you give yourself about 20% more hits and get hit like 10% more, again at half damage.

[Diebo]

Thanks for your comments everyone. And yes, next time I'll go to the homebrew forum.

For Level 3, I agree that just one of those would be worthy. The only reason that I recommended the dexterity AND the dodge (but not the riposte) was for this specific character. He has 14 dexterity and constitution at level 6, and will spend the next ASI on strength. He refuses to wear armor; half plate would give him 17 AC right now, and he is stuck at 14 for the conceivable future for RP/flavor reasons. In an optimizer's hands, both dodge and AC bonus would be completely broken. Note I recommended that the dodge be tied to con for uses/long rest (and otherwise work similar to warding flare).

Blindsight - Misterwhisper recommended darkvision instead (which isn't a snake trait). Is blindsight by itself (none of the other bonuses) too broken at level 6? What is the thinking here?

Misterwhisper - I like the snakebite at level 14. My brother isn't interested in grappling, but the bite might be cool.

TripleD - I like that! Shedding skin. Good visual, and yes, similar to bear feature from a different direction. When would you apply it? Anytime during rage? As a bonus action? As an action?

Foxhound438 - I agree that a lot of homebrew is overpowered. My brother and I started playing back in first edition in the early 1980s, but didn't keep it up (except through computer RPGs). A year ago our high school friend started up a 5e campaign out of the blue. We're having a blast. To put the balance issue on the initial snake into 1e perspective, I told him it was sort of like giving a 6th level paladin a +5 Holy Avenger. And he had no problem with that, so to each their own I guess. I prefer a low-magic world, as that is what the game is balanced at. Anyway, he wants to play a snake totem, not a bear, and he refuses to wear armor, so here we are.

[Specter]

Snake's Reflexes - Starting at 3rd level, you can perform attacks of opportunity without using your reaction, and all of your opportunity attacks are made with advantage.
---------
Back in 3.5 the Viper Lord got Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat, so I'm trying to follow the same line. This makes the Snake Barbarian the best defender of the barbs.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Snake's Reflexes - Starting at 3rd level, you can perform attacks of opportunity without using your reaction, and all of your opportunity attacks made with advantage
---------
Back in 3.5 the Viper Lord got Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat, so I'm trying to follow the same line. This makes the Snake Barbarian the best defender of the barbs.

Neat idea, but it would be really cheesy when combined with Polearm Master.

[RickAllison]

For the OP, you can report your post and say that it was put in the wrong forum. Then wait and they will handle it.

[Specter]

Neat idea, but it would be really cheesy when combined with Polearm Master.

That can pretty much be done already with the Tunnel Fighter fighting style.

[Diebo]

Specter: Fun idea, and I agree would be abused with polearm master. Not a problem with this character.

RickAllison: Probably not worth wasting their time at this point, but good idea. I know what to do in the future now.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

That can pretty much be done already with the Tunnel Fighter fighting style.

Which is UA, i.e. unofficial, content. Saying something is balanced because it's comparable to some other non-balanced thing isn't much evidence.

[Specter]

Which is UA, i.e. unofficial, content. Saying something is balanced because it's comparable to some other non-balanced thing isn't much evidence.

Bruh, what we're doing is also homebrew. And homebrew vs. homebrew, I trust Wizards' homebrew to be a bit better than ours. And it still pales in comparison to cutting all damage in half.

[Slipperychicken]

Here's one for a snake totem.

Level 3:
Unarmed attacks you make while raging deal an additional 1d4 poison damage. If you hit a target with an unarmed attack during your turn, you can attempt to grapple the target as a bonus action. If the target is already grappled you may use that bonus action to "constrict", which is resolved as a single unarmed attack against the creature.

Level 6:
You gain the slipperiness of a snake. You have advantage on ability checks and saving throws made to escape restraints and grapples, and squeezing through tight spaces does not penalize your speed. Also, your unarmed attacks are considered magical for the purpose of overcoming damage resistances and immunity.

Level 14:
While raging, you can grapple and constrict creatures of any size. When grappling a creature no more than one size category larger than yourself, you may choose to automatically restrain that creature.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Bruh, what we're doing is also homebrew. And homebrew vs. homebrew, I trust Wizards' homebrew to be a bit better than ours. And it still pales in comparison to cutting all damage in half.

Why compare homebrew vs homebrew? If that's the bar then are we going to compare it to any homebrew that I can find or make up on the spot? Sounds like a terrible baseline to me. And why not be critical of WotC? Have you seen what they put out in Sage Advice? They are far from infallible.

And it's not all damage btw. The base barbarian is already resistant to three very common damage types, and bear totem is still vulnerable to psychic.

I still like your basic idea of a barbarian which can strike out quickly like a coiled viper, however I didn't like that it broke the basic action economy.
How about something like "When raging, as a reaction you may perform an opportunity attack against an enemy which enters your reach" Maybe add "and you may disengage as a bonus action" to get a slippery snake element.

[Foxhound438]

Bruh, what we're doing is also homebrew. And homebrew vs. homebrew, I trust Wizards' homebrew to be a bit better than ours. And it still pales in comparison to cutting all damage in half.

you clearly haven't seen the first psion, the second "fixed" psion (big air quotes around fixed), the alternate ranger, the undying light warlock, the shadow sorcerer, or the Aarakocra. WotC is just as capable of introducing power creep as any of us, as evidenced by their own works.

[Specter]

you clearly haven't seen the first psion, the second "fixed" psion (big air quotes around fixed), the alternate ranger, the undying light warlock, the shadow sorcerer, or the Aarakocra. WotC is just as capable of introducing power creep as any of us, as evidenced by their own works.

I've seen all of those, haha. I get that the point is 'Wizards is also guilty', but even that situationally overpowered barbarian I've invited pales in comparison to the Bear Totem. So if the officially ruled subclass is also OP, who ya gonna call?

If you want to set limits, make it two or three attacks.