A good Necromancer?

[Drakkoli]

So... A few of my friends just introduced me to D&D not too long ago, and I was wondering if there was a way to build a non-evil necromancer? If someone could point me in the right direction, I would really appreciate it...

[Aegis013]

In the Magic of Incarnum book there is a prestige call called the Necrocarnate. Totally evil. However, in the Adaptation section of that prestige class, it suggests an alternate version of Necrocarnum called Vivicarnum.

A Vivicarnum circlet soulmeld from that (rather poorly edited and confusing to read (but there are easy guides available on the net)) book would let you create a single Necro/Vivicarnum Zombie as a Good act, allowing the creature a chance to redeem itself.

Alternatively, talk to your DM about refluffing any necromancer you want. :smallcool:

[TheIronGolem]

Depends on your GM, and on what kind of necromancy you perform.

If you stick to spells that don't have the [evil] descriptor you should be fine. Necromancy has plenty of nice debuffs and a handful of useful buffs as well.

But if you're going for the classic "raising armies of the dead to fight for you" theme, you're going to need a sympathetic GM to pull it off. By RAW, creating undead is an evil act. There are fluff-based explanations for this, but they're really just post-hoc rationalizations for what comes down to "dead things are yucky" and/or "because tradition". If your GM holds to this view then you're pretty much doomed (unless you stick to non-evil necromancy spells). However, some tables hold that undead and the magic that creates them are just things, and it's what you do with them that makes you good or evil. If your GM agrees to that, you can do just fine.

Note that you might get a sympathetic GM, but not a sympathetic world. You might not be evil for making those zombies, but you might still get a bad rap from people who think you are.

[Endless Query]

One of the other things you can do is focus on attack/damaging/debuff spells. While you may be damaging/crippling/rotting your enemies or what have you, other than your method of combat being a bit on the gruesome or cruel side, you're not tied down by any of the "creating undead is evil" stuff that normally accompanies necromancy. Wield negative energy and the chill of the grave (check out that Chill Touch =P) to bring ruin to your adversaries.

Heck, you could even snag some command/destroy undead sort of stuff in a sort of a "I study/control the necromantic arts to protect the sanctity of the dead" stealing away the powers of those who would misuse them (obviously, if you take control of undead, you'll have to sanctify/mercy kill/w/e them after you clean up, but still, works).

[Grand Poobah]

I think it's in Libris Mortis or Heroes of Horror where there are a few different takes on how death, negative energy etc fit into a campaign world that doesn't necessarily adhere to the default D&D positions of black and white undead = Evil position.

In my campaign I've ruled that mindless undead are not themselves Evil but what they are ordered to do can be. Creating intelligent undead, particularly those that can create spawn, is an evil act. Also, negative energy is, as mentioned in the DMG, not evilly aligned but neutral. Only classes that gain their spells from deities with specific alignment requirements are restricted from casting evil/good spells.

[OldTrees1]

Dread Necromancer is a good place to start looking for most necromancy character concepts.

Dominic Deegan (www.dominic-deegan.com) had some good comic strips on the virtues of necromancy. (The 3 images hidden in the spoiler below)

Everyone will vary in what morals they judge necromancy by and thus what is and is not virtuous necromancy. For me I consider necromancy to be the school of magic controlling/gating the passage at the point of death. A virtuous necromancer would be one that delayed deaths that would come too soon and grant the gentle journey of death to those whose time has come.
http://www.dominic-deegan.com/comics/20080614.gif

-snip-
http://www.dominic-deegan.com/comics/20080627.gif
http://www.dominic-deegan.com/comics/20080628.gif

[Thurbane]

If you stick to spells without the Evil descriptor, and maybe focus on spells that incapacitate undead, no reason you couldn't be a good necro, although you'd miss out on a chunk of the best necromancy spells.

[Efrate]

I made a halfling necromancer once who was very similar to that comic. He was out to prove that not all necromancy is evil, and he refrained from making armies of the dead, focusing on debuffs. He was out to prove that with a study of death you can enrich life to make it better for everyone. Using the power of death he learned a lot about the soul and how people pass on, what they need to do to be laid to rest peacefully, and such. It was a bit of a heady mix, controlling the power of life and death all the time. He was best friend with an illusionist who wanted to show the world magic isn't all fireballs and lightning bolts (both had a hatred for evokers). It was great.

Also, if you do not have a way to get to the BBEG, and traps have killed/you don't have a rogue, sending a zombie down a trapped corridor to spring the traps and then die again isn't necessarily evil, but it is potentially justifiable, but thats up to your DM.

[Inevitability]

The 5th-level spell Oath of Blood curses a being to keep trying to fulfill a Geas even after death. It doesn't have any alignment descriptors, though, and it should be able to create a LN/LG character using this spell to punish criminals and making them repent for their deeds by serving the masses.

[Gildedragon]

Back in 2ed [healing] spells were in necromancy not conjuration; ask the DM if that can be the case again

[The Inquisition]

It's not Evil, but in 3.5/pathfinder there's a deity called the blood mother. If you want to be 'Good', you can by some miracle worship the goddess of the stone giants, who should be able to make it work in a shamanistic sort of way. Also, as my friend put it, the 'Blood Mother' sounds metal as hell. http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Fandarra

[Darrin]

If you stick to spells without the Evil descriptor, and maybe focus on spells that incapacitate undead, no reason you couldn't be a good necro, although you'd miss out on a chunk of the best necromancy spells.

If you're a Hellbred (Fiendish Codex II), you can cast [evil] spells even if you have a good alignment. Those spells would still need to be used for a good cause, but yeah, you'd have to have a cooperative DM that isn't deliberately trying to hosejob you.

[JeenLeen]

One other option is, if the DM agrees this works but is unwilling to waive [Evil] spells being evil, to balance your casting of [Evil] spells with [Good] spells. Casting an evil spell is an evil act, and thus creating undead is evil, but it might be considered a relatively minor evil act. So, something a good person could do for a good cause.

But casting it does taint your soul, according to the rules. But, alternatively, casting a Good spell helps. So save a few spell slots, or spend days resting, casting Protection from Evil or summoning a few celestial badgers or something.

You would need the DM's approval that this works, but it's a way to balance good and evil in your spellcasting so that you are overall neutral in spellcasting. And by playing a good character, you maintain Good alignment.

For build options, look at both cleric and wizard (and dread necromancer, if non-core allowed). I forget which is actually better at being a necromancer, particularly the undead-summoning part. It could be neat if, as a good cleric, you rebuke undead with holy power but command them using your spellcasting.
A cleric of Wee Jas (LN deity, I think) makes sense as a good cleric who uses necromancer. While the deity is neutral, she is about the balance of life and death, so you could certainly be Good and be about keeping undead and desecration of the dead in check.

[Gildedragon]

Raising the spirits of the dead, communing with them, could also be used to give people closure, settle wills, help bring justice to murderers, and preserve knowledge

[Inevitability]

But casting it does taint your soul, according to the rules. But, alternatively, casting a Good spell helps. So save a few spell slots, or spend days resting, casting Protection from Evil or summoning a few celestial badgers or something.

Actually, the BoED explicitly calls this out as not working.

[JeenLeen]

Actually, the BoED explicitly calls this out as not working.

Oh, that stinks. Just to be sure: does casting Good spells not lean one's soul towards good at all, or is it just not enough to maintain an exalted feat/level-of-goodness (i.e., exalted characters cannot cast Evil spells even if they counter it with Good) or to cancel out casting Evil spells (i.e., it does modify one's soul, but even casting a lot of Good spells doesn't add more than casting a single level 1 evil spell subtracts)?

I can definitely see a GM saying it doesn't do enough. I had an idea for an evil wizard who thought he was good. He was originally good but slowly corrupted himself by using Mindrape to convert evil beings into his servants, but he thought he was offsetting it by casting Good spells with all his level 1 slots each day. In the game, it helped, but not nearly enough to counteract it and the guy slowly turned evil over time.

[ShurikVch]

Note: spells of Seed of Undeath and Summon Undead lines, and metamagical feats Fell Animate and Fell Drain are not, technically, [Evil] :xykon:

[OldTrees1]

Oh, that stinks. Just to be sure: does casting Good spells not lean one's soul towards good at all, or is it just not enough to maintain an exalted feat/level-of-goodness (i.e., exalted characters cannot cast Evil spells even if they counter it with Good) or to cancel out casting Evil spells (i.e., it does modify one's soul, but even casting a lot of Good spells doesn't add more than casting a single level 1 evil spell subtracts)?

I can definitely see a GM saying it doesn't do enough. I had an idea for an evil wizard who thought he was good. He was originally good but slowly corrupted himself by using Mindrape to convert evil beings into his servants, but he thought he was offsetting it by casting Good spells with all his level 1 slots each day. In the game, it helped, but not nearly enough to counteract it and the guy slowly turned evil over time.

Per the rules as they be:
[Good] and [Evil] do tug at your alignment.
[Evil] taints you in more than just your alignment. [Fiendish Codex II]
[Good] and [Evil] do not balance each other out.
Good deeds and [Evil] spells do balance out to neutral [Heroes of Horror Dread Necromancer class]

Aka the rules are self contradictory. So ask your DM rather than WotC when it comes to alignment.

[ATHATH]

Speaking of the BoED, have you tried focusing on Animate With the Spirit?

[Inevitability]

Speaking of the BoED, have you tried focusing on Animate With the Spirit?

No necromancy, though.

[dascarletm]

If you are willing to go to pathfinder, you can look at the 3rd party White Necromancer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/kobold-press-open-design/white-necromancer). Otherwise, talking with the DM and working out a non-evil good necromancer is best. Use other non-western culture's views on death and undeath to make your case.

[JeenLeen]

Mentioning BoED made me think of the Deathless mentioned there (basically undead, but powered by positive energy instead of negative.)

If your GM maintains [Evil] spells and using undead is evil, you could ask about spells to create deathless. I don't recall if spells are in BoED or not, but a couple small changes to Animate Dead would let it be a [Good] spell to make deathless.

Though, probably easiest is if the GM just lets you cast [Evil] spells and still be good based on alignment and roleplay.

[KillingAScarab]

I see no one has mentioned the necromancy specialist wizard variant from Unearthed Arcana which lets you trade away getting a familiar for a skeletal minion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#necromancerVariants). Nothing is mentioned regarding alignment either for having the skeleton or for the ritual to create it, but the flavor text for the necromancer variants specifically points out the possibility of neutral and good necromancers. Wizard necromancers are comparatively worse at creating undead than clerics, since they get the spells to do so later, so if you take that route take the advice others have given to use non-evil spells to debuff enemies and boost yourself.


I made a halfling necromancer once who was very similar to that comic. He was out to prove that not all necromancy is evil, and he refrained from making armies of the dead, focusing on debuffs. He was out to prove that with a study of death you can enrich life to make it better for everyone. Using the power of death he learned a lot about the soul and how people pass on, what they need to do to be laid to rest peacefully, and such. It was a bit of a heady mix, controlling the power of life and death all the time.

Raising the spirits of the dead, communing with them, could also be used to give people closure, settle wills, help bring justice to murderers, and preserve knowledgeThese ideas remind me strongly of my favorite deity in the Forgotten Realms setting: Kelemvor. If you are playing in that setting, look him up. He is a death god who wants people to not be afraid of death. He is also strongly opposed to undead, to the point that there is a prestige class (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Doomguide) taken by his followers which lets them become better at fighting undead.


In the Magic of Incarnum book there is a prestige call called the Necrocarnate. Totally evil. However, in the Adaptation section of that prestige class, it suggests an alternate version of Necrocarnum called Vivicarnum.While I do like Incarnum, I don't know that this is the best introduction to it. Even if the DM adapts Necrocarnate, it takes awhile to get into a prestige class and the mechanics for increasing the essentia pool in this one seems like it would be difficult to capitalize on for non-Evil characters. If you play a character with a good alignment, you should be capable of shaping vivicarnum soulmelds, anyway. The necrocarnum acolyte feat used to qualify for necrocarnate is to let non-evil characters shape soulmelds with the necrocarnum descriptor (which also all have the evil descriptor, so that needs adapting, too).


Back in 2ed [healing] spells were in necromancy not conjuration; ask the DM if that can be the case againIt would probably be easier to create new spells which are in the necromancy school and heal than it would be to revise the magic system.

[Flickerdart]

While creating undead with [Evil] spells is Evil, it's not evil to use other means of creating them. For example, the dirgesinger's Song of Awakening is not an evil act. It's fairly limited - you can only have one undead at a time of your HD or lower, and need to keep singing or it falls over again - but it's something. Non-good alignment requirements still let neutral characters enter.

You can also find undead someone else created (with or without murdering their evil creator), and command them. Command undead is Necromancy but not [Evil]. Undead lieutenant gives you +CL to the HD of undead you can control (and is also not evil). Rebuking or controlling undead is, I think, not an evil act.

[Inevitability]

Rebuking or controlling undead is, I think, not an evil act.

Sadly, it is.


Even if a cleric is neutral, channeling positive energy is a good act and channeling negative energy is evil.

This is one of 3.5's parts that just make me angry for no good reason. The developers know neutral clerics are a thing. They explicitly remind us neutral clerics are a thing in this very sentence. And yet, they describe a game mechanic that makes it difficult for neutral clerics worshipping a neutral deity to stay neutral because they are using their class features.

[eggynack]

No necromancy, though.
Technically not. It’s kinda necromancy without the necromancy. To the more central issur. I've always found the reanimation as evil thing kinda dumb. A good wizard can cast evil spells, and if you do h pod stuff wit them, well, technically you might get shunted to neutral, but I'm of the opinion that a DM should not do that.

[Jeff the Green]

This is homebrew, but I really like Redeemer of Regrets (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9994058&postcount=14).

[Ger. Bessa]

While creating undead with [Evil] spells is Evil, it's not evil to use other means of creating them. For example, the dirgesinger's Song of Awakening is not an evil act. It's fairly limited - you can only have one undead at a time of your HD or lower, and need to keep singing or it falls over again - but it's something. Non-good alignment requirements still let neutral characters enter.


Actually, creating/animating undead is an evil act in addition to an [Evil] act (LM iirc). Basically, LM, BoVD and BBoED together ban the idea of "good necromancer making his army of undead" (making him neutral at best if he's a paragon of virtue and restraint otherwise).

The "good necromancer that treats undead like pokemons" is OK though, and the "good necromancer blaster that makes your level in the negatives (and prevents wightocalypse by burning your corpse)" could hang out with any paladin.

I think the act of possession is evil too, so Magic Jar might be an issue. I'm afb right now but if it's not (BoVD check), then that's another cool theme for a necro (body-jacking galore). And if possessing a humanoid is evil, possessing an undead might be not. Be that vampire without the LA!

[ZeroiaSD]

One hard-to-access way-

If you're a Tier 3 Mythic, the Universal Path Ability 'beyond morality.' It allows you to count as no alignment and pretty much every alignment. You can have classes of conflicting alignment, you can have feats with mutually exclusive alignment requirements, etc..

It does say if you 'violate the code of ethics of a class,' you could still loose access to certain features, which is annoying vague (and I'd take to mean stuff like, "If the class specifically takes oaths to not-do-this-specific-act, then you shouldn't do so. If the class is merely always-lawful or always-chaotic, go to town."), but it specifically calls out casting aligned spells without restriction or repercussion.

[gorfnab]

Maybe look into the Nightstalker class from Dragonlance: Races of Ansalon.

[LeighTheDwarf]

Necromancers get some healing spells, too. Maybe make a necromancer who is largely a healer?

[Vizzerdrix]

Heres a thought. Why do we never see threads about good evokers? Is it less evil to be able to blow people up then it is to reanimate them?

[Divide by Zero]

Heres a thought. Why do we never see threads about good evokers? Is it less evil to be able to blow people up then it is to reanimate them?

According to official D&D cosmology, yes. Individual tables may play it differently, but by RAW animating the dead is inherently evil regardless of your intentions while blowing them up is not.