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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Adeptus Astartes of Chaos-Base Class



JNAProductions
2016-05-13, 04:08 AM
Working on a new class, found here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FaHhS3iTqb1iPuP7dQy3lGmGbrVpZjlKEILBfoGdGG8/edit?usp=sharing).

Finished Tzeentch, working on Nurgle, Khorne, and Slaanesh next.

JNAProductions
2016-05-13, 04:36 AM
Finished it! Give it a look.

AvatarVecna
2016-05-13, 05:09 AM
"Astartes Body" seems like an awful lot for a first level ability. Acting while dying, poison resistance, disease immunity? It certainly fits the lore, but it seems like an awful lot. Of course, I wouldn't exactly call most Space Marines of any faction 1st level characters...at least not the equivalent of 5e 1st lvl characters...so it's likely just part of trying to get the Chaos Marine up and running early.

Any Fighting Style? Seems appropriate.

"Improved Anatomy" seems a bit weak. Not a huge problem, since between this and Astartes Body, the level 3 seems balanced enough, but generally, level 3 is a big stepping stone in an adventurer's career in 5e, and this feels like a baby step. If this and Fighting style came online a level earlier, and Astartes Body came online at 3, it would flow much more like other classes do, at least to me.

ASIs, pretty standard...to a maximum of 22? Ooh, let's be careful around that...

Extra Attack, standard.

Indomitable, standard.

Greater Anatomy is a nice upgrade, and well-timed.

I would probably specify the damage die from Daemon to a particular level; Cleric and Paladin both grant an extra d8, so that's probably good; otherwise, it gets kinda swingy depending on what kind of weapon you're using. Not a huge issue, though, and the rest of the ability is solid.

Improved Astartes Body is a huge upgrade, but it seems appropriate for the level you get it at; the nonmagic resistance pales in comparison to basically giving the exhaustion sub-system the middle finger.

Perfect Astartes Body seems like it might be a bit much; comparing directly to the Champion ability gained at the same level, it does exactly the same thing, but also grants a variable resistance. Not sure what (or if) to change this, but it's something to take into account if this isn't meant to be directly superior to existing classes.

Tzeentch:

Stacking Soul Blaze with Daemon leads to lots of damage, which should be fun, and the resistances are adding up.

Insubstantial Reality and Daemon of Tzeentch both seem pretty appropriate as well.

Sorcerer...breaks bounded accuracy. I know it's on a WH40K class, I know you don't get super-high-level spells, I know it's to keep things interesting...but please think about this. It doesn't have to go away, but Bounded Accuracy is virtually never broken for spell DCs outside of powerful magic items.

Apotheosis seems a bit much, even for a capstone...at least, by normal class standards. As far as how the class advances, it seems pretty on-par; a bit much, but not too overpowered.

Nurgle:

Apotheosis is the only thing that stands out as "too much" here, and it's the same "a bit much" as the other.

Khorne:

+2 damage for all weapons...+1d8 skirmish...+1dX to Daemon on top of what it normally does...another +2 to damage. Well, it certainly feels appropriate. In fact, I just might want to ask my DM if I can rebuild Sam with this class (Vengeance Paladin is good, but it just doesn't have the bloodlust this does). All seems fairly balanced here; damage, damage, and more damage.

Slaneesh:

You should probably specify if the AC penalty from Rending can stack with itself or not; I imagine a lot of DMs would assume no, while a lot of players would assume yes, and clearing it up can give them an idea of how to go on arguing about it.

Glorious Excess is solid awesome: a reaction attack to getting hurt that makes your next round even better!

Apotheosis, as always, seems a bit much, but it's balanced against the others, so it's cool.

JNAProductions
2016-05-13, 05:16 AM
What would you suggest replacing Sorcerer with? TO avoid breaking bounded accuracy.

AvatarVecna
2016-05-13, 05:23 AM
What would you suggest replacing Sorcerer with? TO avoid breaking bounded accuracy.

I had a few thoughts:

1) Casting and attacking in the same turn. Possibly like the EK, where they can bonus action attack if they cast a spell with their action.

2) If you want to do something different and powerful, but that doesn't break the game's assumptions, how about a feature that...mixes things up a bit? As the Daemon God of change, what if you could change what saving throw was called for? Preferably, of the same strength (calling for a Wisdom save instead of a Dex save against Fireball, for example). It keeps things on the same relative scale, but allows your half-mage to have even more versatility.

3) If you hit somebody, they have disadvantage on saves vs your spells; if you get them with a spell, you have advantage to hit them with attacks while the spell is active on them.

JNAProductions
2016-05-13, 05:30 AM
Went with number 2.

Final Hyena
2016-05-13, 06:16 AM
Isn't skulltaker a little abusable?
Slaying an enemy restores hp=to its HD + your strength.
making it temporary hp would prevent cheese.

JNAProductions
2016-05-13, 06:20 AM
Modified to Temp HP.

Final Hyena
2016-05-13, 06:27 AM
I'm slightly concerned with Astartes Body. I may be wrong as such a mechanic doesn't come up too often, but can't you have a cleric bonus action healing word you every few turns and reset your hp to 0 and your death saves?

JNAProductions
2016-05-13, 06:30 AM
Sure, but keep in mind-if you're active, you're a target. Three hits (of any strength) and you die.

You become a lot safer once you get six death saving throws, but all it takes is six arrows to find their mark and you go kaput.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-05-13, 06:34 AM
Haven't had a chance to look through this properly yet (I'm at work), but I saw AV's comment here:


Khorne:

... All seems fairly balanced here; damage, damage, and more damage.

And thought "hmm... didn't most of the Khornate items/powers in 40k increase attacks rather than strength?" It's been a while since I've engaged with the 40k lore, so maybe I'm mis-remembering or that particular thing has been changed, but in my head, I always imagined the berserkers overwhelming their enemies with furious, lightning-fast assaults, rather than a few mighty blows.

Edit: taking a proper look now.

First up...

"Equipment
You start with the following equipment, in addition to any equipment granted by your background.

a) Chain mail or b) leather armor
a) A martial weapon and a shield or b) two martial weapons
a) A light crossbow and 20 bolts or b) two handaxes
a) A dungeoneer’s pack or b) an explorer's pack"
...makes me imagine these guys (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qm36DfIFKcQ/Uy8d0A2PTLI/AAAAAAAAC-w/A6TbK_EW1wc/s1600/Nord_ChaosMarauders_Round1.jpg) more than the this guy (http://media.moddb.com/images/articles/1/195/194221/auto/Chaos-Space-Marine.jpg). I mean, I can see why you've done it that way; you can't very well give them plate armour as starting equipment; but... "I'll have two handaxes and an explorer's pack, please" just doesn't set the right tone at all.


"can now go for three times as long without food or water."
There's a corner case where you've going on halved water rations that might be ambiguous here. Are you ok for three days and then you have to roll (as that's how long you could go with zero water without ill effect, using this ability), or do you still have to roll every day, since you're not technically without water?

Astartes Body and Greater Anatomy put together make it very difficult to kill you if you don't want to be killed. It seems like that level of safety might not be much fun, in practice. I agree with whoever said the Daemon damage boost should be 1d8. It's just neater.

I'm feeling the Tzeentch subclass is a bit powerful. Every ability is between 'very solid' and 'amazing' and I think that, putting them all together, you'd end up with someone who could easily outshine everyone else in the party in most situations. Regarding the 1/3 casting, I'd be tempted to make it 'transmutation and one other school'. Lord of Change, after all.

Oh wait, the other subclasses don't get a feature at level 3? I'm not a fan of that.

I love Diseased Offensive. It's everything I'd want in a Nurgle-themed ability.

I still say Daemon of Khorne should be more 'Extra Attack 2' rather than 'Improved Divine Smite'.

Mark of Slaanesh is kind of disappointing, compared to the other Marks. The others are practically equal to feats, but this... isn't. And shouldn't a Slaaneshi character get some kind of accuracy bonus in one-on-one melee duels? I feel there is a missed opportunity here somewhere.

Final Hyena
2016-05-13, 06:48 AM
Do you still have to roll death saves on your turn?

JNAProductions
2016-05-13, 06:49 AM
Do you still have to roll death saves on your turn?

Yes. Yes you do.

khadgar567
2016-05-13, 06:51 AM
is there a chance we can keep our self as medium creature at paths cap abilities

JNAProductions
2016-05-13, 06:52 AM
You can freely transform back into your humanoid form.

khadgar567
2016-05-13, 06:58 AM
You can freely transform back into your humanoid form.

I mean medium human form and daemon form by the way how its that works for gnomes( aka small races. are they get two size increases in same time or just one or how about of giants aka races with already large as starting size)

JNAProductions
2016-05-13, 06:59 AM
They still become large.

khadgar567
2016-05-13, 07:00 AM
They still become large.

so gnome gets two size increase but ice giant gets middle finger thats odd

JNAProductions
2016-05-13, 07:01 AM
What is this Ice Giant you speak of?

And if they're already large, then they just stay the same. Not a big deal.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-05-13, 08:06 AM
What is this Ice Giant you speak of?

And if they're already large, then they just stay the same. Not a big deal.

I agree with this. Changing into a daemon is not a fixed boost, it's a transformation into something different.

Besides, best practice would be to assume all playable races are small or medium; anything else must he homebrew, which will come with its own set of rules anyway.

Markoff Chainey
2016-05-14, 04:12 AM
I commented in detail while reading through your document... but as a last round-up...

I like many of your ideas in many threads and I love the warhammer universe chaos gods...

that said, I deeply dislike OP classes that do not even compare to the base PHB power level... and I think it is just bad design if someone cannot bring down the flavor to the given power level.

What I especially dislike about the classes is:
- there is no drawback for being an obvious monstrosity
- there is no drawback for being a demon that is attuned to a mad and cruel god (where is the randomness and chaos?)
- all of them are crazy OP
- the lvl 20 abilities are just WAAAAY away and unplayable if the whole party is not made of demons.
- most abilities stack and are just more of the same on later levels
- there are no "fluff" abilities, all add "oomph"
- damage per hit / hp / resistances stacking is very powerful and also very boring.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-05-14, 04:43 AM
What I especially dislike about the classes is:
- there is no drawback for being an obvious monstrosity
- there is no drawback for being a demon that is attuned to a mad and cruel god (where is the randomness and chaos?)

Well, what are the canon consequences? a) you lose your free will, which is almost impossible to implement in D&D, and b) everyone hates you, which is down to the DM and doesn't need to be built into the class. It's like, the PHB doesn't place a mechanical drawback on drow, half-orcs or tieflings, which are pretty monstrous in the context of their setting.

Balance is an issue, of course, but I'd rather tone down the bonuses than introduce specific drawbacks. Unless JNA plans to write classes for other 40k unit types (I'd love to see aspect warriors!), in which case it would be ok to balance them against each other only.

Markoff Chainey
2016-05-14, 05:38 AM
Well, what are the canon consequences? a) you lose your free will, which is almost impossible to implement in D&D, and b) everyone hates you, which is down to the DM and doesn't need to be built into the class. It's like, the PHB doesn't place a mechanical drawback on drow, half-orcs or tieflings, which are pretty monstrous in the context of their setting.

Balance is an issue, of course, but I'd rather tone down the bonuses than introduce specific drawbacks. Unless JNA plans to write classes for other 40k unit types (I'd love to see aspect warriors!), in which case it would be ok to balance them against each other only.

I think introducing some drawbacks would be a way to allow for some higher power abilities. Drawbacks that I meant is that the benefit could be more randmness based (they are chaos gods after all!) - that some benefits come through mutations that grant something good, but also something bad - like a "giant crab arm" - that allows to make great unarmed attacks, but gives disadvantage on sleight of hand or something alike. (Did you read the warhammer fantasy chaos codex? most champions are bestowed "gifts" from their gods when they are made champions... and again when they become heroes or generals... that would be awesome in D&D...) And lastly, some abilities could have direct impact on social interactions. I do not see why it should not be reflected... they are demons after all and Tieflings and Half-Orcs should be far more accepted by society than full-fledged demons.

When it comes to balance, I totally agree. The classes as of now are not balanced against the PHB classes, but introduce a different level. A DM would need to redo the CR calculations, but if a party consists only of chaos warriors, it should work pretty fine because the balance between the subclasses appears to be solid. Still, I do not know why it should be necessary to raise the balance level and make them incompatible to the rest of the PHB, that's rather sad.

JNAProductions
2016-05-14, 12:44 PM
Markoff, I personally feel that most of the class is balanced. It's a little higher DPR than an equivalent Paladin, but with much less burst potential.

So, what specifically (Other than the capstone-I got that, and will drop 2 points from each stat buff) do you feel is overpowered?

And what fluff abilities do you think I could add?

JNAProductions
2016-05-15, 05:30 PM
Alright. I'm going to be putting this on the Dungeon Master's Guild soon (as a pay-what-you-want item, so free PDFs if you don't want to pay), what objections to this class still exist?

sephorth
2016-08-16, 02:13 PM
Love the class and plan to use it myself. Just got one question for you though, is this class intended to go with your daemon touched race set? Also, don't know if your interested or not but I took your fall to chaos flavor text and created a chaos table (kind of an insanity table) that I plan to use with this class.

JNAProductions
2016-08-16, 02:14 PM
Love the class and plan to use it myself. Just got one question for you though, is this class intended to go with your daemon touched race set? Also, don't know if your interested or not but I took your fall to chaos flavor text and created a chaos table (kind of an insanity table) that I plan to use with this class.

It can work with it, but there's no need to.

Word of warning on the Daemontouched-they're a bit above the power curve when it comes to most races.

Mind sharing the table?

sephorth
2016-08-16, 02:43 PM
It's mostly done. I took a lot of inspiration from the asha'man class here for it. Havent decided when i would roll for it though. I am thinking about any time combat is initiated or that and the dm could tell the player to roll for it during normal out of combat interactions. the player would roll a d10 and on rolls of 1 they would then roll a d20 to see what happens. The table is at the very bottom. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1A7cK02se3f3ILbFgvyVsbHIAWFunct6rmUTmvCWkhY8/edit?usp=drive_web

Mithicalbird
2017-03-15, 11:58 AM
Pretty interesting, I like it, I would definitely use this in a campaign.