Help! I Caught a Player Cheating.

[DirePorkChop]

Hello Playground,

I am currently running a set of modules in an adventure series for my gaming group, and I recently came across this little snare. I caught one of my players red handed cheating. He was reading the module ahead of time, and basically knew everything that was going to happen. I called him on his B******t, and he didn't confess immediately. It wasn't until I told him that I caught him that he admitted to reading the modules. I was infuriated, and actually quite hurt that he would do something like this, as it takes away my fun as well. I work full time as well as pursuing my degree right now, so having a pre generated module to run my guys through has been the only way that I can run a game for them. I am in a pickle because we also play at this person's house.

My question is this: How do I proceed with this? I don't really want to ban him from my game because he is a good friend, but I don't know how I can explain to him that cheating at a game that has no real life implications is F*****g dumb, and extremely childish. This would not be the first time I caught him cheating. When I played with him, I always hawked his dice because they are black on black, or grey on black, and he palms them immediately upon rolling them. What can I do? HALP MEE Playground, I am at a loss.

[dascarletm]

Design your own campaign. Move off of your module's rails. That way, no one can read it ahead of time... well, unless they can read minds...:smalleek:

[AnachroNinja]

This is the kind of difficult issue where most of the answers you will get will be some version of "talk to him out of game and try to work it out". That's good advise and I endorse it. The one thing I want to add is, how much of a problem is this in your game? By that I mean, does he palm the dice and declare natural twenties every other role? Or is he just rolling a bit better then averages would suggest he should? Or somewhere in the middle?

As far as the module, same thing. Is he obviously abusing his knowledge or quietly advancing the story when the party is at a loss? To what degree is this affecting the game as a whole, and the other players? I understand it is less fun for you to know that he has peeked ahead, I'm just asking you to look beyond the immediate frustration and examine and explain the actual negative effects here.

The reason I bring this up, is it is very similar to a problem in used to having, from the player side. In the games I've played in, it has always quickly been noticed that not only am I better at optimizing then most, but I'm dangerously genre savvy. I tend to identify and extrapolate the plot very quickly, whether a module or carefully crafted home brew campaign world. I'm just good at that. Unfortunately that's very frustrating for my DM. I have tons of stories I could tell about times I half jokingly pointed out what an ironic spot it would be for a trap or a betrayal, only for the DM to sigh and call for initiative rolls. It took me some years to get myself under a tight rein so I wouldn't spoil things without thinking about it. My current DM generally discusses his story plans and enemies with me just because he knows I'll figure it out anyway, and this way I can help advance the plot when a push is needed, and help bail the party out when they missed the hints that this bbeg was immune to spells and they didn't pack their backups, or whatever.

Now I'm not saying it's directly comparable so much as I'm saying there are workarounds. If he already knows the story, that sucks but you can't take that back. What you can do is discuss with him that you don't want him to ruin it for everyone else, so he has to be careful with his knowledge. He could just the type of person who can't read a book without giving e it to see what happens and really loves movie spoilers. He also might just be a malicious cheater who loves to be awesome, who knows. But unless you want to cut him out of the group, most of your options involve working something out that is a mutual compromise.

[Gildedragon]

Tell him that if he wants to read the modules then he ought run them.
That if he is your friend and wants to play with you he can't read the modules: you just don't have the time to make stuff up
If he won't stop he isn't a good friend to play with.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Have a group discussion about it. Let everyone take turns to give their opinion on the cheaters behavior and what they think should be done about it. Then come up with a solution as a group.

[ChillerInstinct]

Simplest solution would probably be to make a few minor alterations to the module. You now know exactly what he's expecting, and that makes him predictable. Swap out a few hidden loot drops with extra traps, shift around the order of encounters if the order doesn't directly affect the plot, and have a few counter-measures put in place in case he gets suspiciously prescient.

With enough alterations designed to prey upon his ill-gotten knowledge, he'll be thrown off his game. Eventually he'll start doubting how much he can trust what he thinks he knows. If his cheating doesn't get him killed early, it'll at least make sure it's no help to him.

The rest of your friends will likely be none the wiser, thinking this is how the module was originally designed. They have the same type of fun you originally planned out for them, your cheating friend can't spoil everything, and you'll get to have the fun of watching his cheating backfire in spectacular ways, with only a little bit of extra effort on your part.

[AnimeTheCat]

In a way, I agree with what @Dascarletm said, but at the same time I know about having a full time job, pursuing a degree, as well as general life is your primary concern and building a campaign can be fairly time consuming. What I would recommend is simply reflavoring the module. All you need to do is make changes to the encounters that he can't expect. Unfortunately the encounters will be at similar times, but you've ultimately changed the nature and content of the encounters. That's as easy as putting in lizarfolk instead of orc or adding in hobgoblins to some orc and goblins, etc. Just use what they've given you and augment it. That shouldn't get too time consuming and to make things easier on myself I have "Monster Cards" which just have all the pertinent information on an index card for a certain monster. Well... started off as index cards then I decided I would print them and make them easier to read.

As for the cheating, I would say that if he's a decent guy and you don't want to find a new place (it doesn't sound like you do) just put it behind you and in the future don't say anything about the module name. You can also use the above method to ramp up modules for higher levels. In sunless Citadel, replace the Goblins with all orcs and ogres. Give all the Kobolds PC levels and play them smarter. Have a Lich at the end instead of a druid. Lots of ways you can take a module's framework and build you own unique encounter.

[OldTrees1]

Start with:
"Due to my work/school schedule I rely on using modules. I cannot run a campaign where a PC has access to metagame information from the DM's notes (this includes the module). Unfortunately I do not have time to rework a campaign when you give in to your curiosity and peek at the DM's notes. I presume you still want me to run campaigns, so what is your solution to our problem?"

Their reaction to your request for assistance will inform you of their character and how you should proceed.

[Twurps]

Have a group discussion about it. Let everyone take turns to give their opinion on the cheaters behavior and what they think should be done about it. Then come up with a solution as a group.

Good advice above, especially this one.
If it doesn't help (or even if it does):read ahead yourself, and just once in while find a good spot to make a strategic change.
Dungeon is full of critters immune to fire? change it to critters that are best handled with fire spells. Watch him have a hard time without his fire spells ready...
He can hardly call you out without having to admit he was cheating, and it prevents him from fully tailoring spells/gear to the module in the future.

[DirePorkChop]

This is the kind of difficult issue where most of the answers you will get will be some version of "talk to him out of game and try to work it out". That's good advise and I endorse it. The one thing I want to add is, how much of a problem is this in your game? By that I mean, does he palm the dice and declare natural twenties every other role? Or is he just rolling a bit better then averages would suggest he should? Or somewhere in the middle?

He has used this knowledge to get the best out of every situation, and prepare spells accordingly ahead of time. It is SEVERELY hampering the game, and in turn bringing down everyones fun. I have talked to him, and he has sworn that he will not cheat in the future, but the thing is that he lied about cheating in the first place. My thing is, I do not understand the mentality behind cheating at a game that you cannot "Win" (No God-Wizard jokes please) He has never rolled like trash the entire game. There was one session he never "rolled" below a 17. I have since had one of the other players babysit his dice so that he cannot cheat. I don't think that I should have a grown man watch another grown man so that he doesn't cheat at a game that is played for fun. WTH.


Design your own campaign. Move off of your module's rails. That way, no one can read it ahead of time... well, unless they can read minds

If I had time to do this, I would not be running a module.


Simplest solution would probably be to make a few minor alterations to the module. You now know exactly what he's expecting, and that makes him predictable. Swap out a few hidden loot drops with extra traps, shift around the order of encounters if the order doesn't directly affect the plot, and have a few counter-measures put in place in case he gets suspiciously prescient.

With enough alterations designed to prey upon his ill-gotten knowledge, he'll be thrown off his game. Eventually he'll start doubting how much he can trust what he thinks he knows. If his cheating doesn't get him killed early, it'll at least make sure it's no help to him.

The rest of your friends will likely be none the wiser, thinking this is how the module was originally designed. They have the same type of fun you originally planned out for them, your cheating friend can't spoil everything, and you'll get to have the fun of watching his cheating backfire in spectacular ways, with only a little bit of extra effort on your part.

I really like this Idea. Maybe making some encounters way too easy for what they are in the module, and he wastes all his spells on those encounters, and then Supe-up some less strong encounters. Change a 6 headed hydra to a Grey Render or something. I like this Idea a lot.

[DirePorkChop]

Start with:
"Due to my work/school schedule I rely on using modules. I cannot run a campaign where a PC has access to metagame information from the DM's notes (this includes the module). Unfortunately I do not have time to rework a campaign when you give in to your curiosity and peek at the DM's notes. I presume you still want me to run campaigns, so what is your solution to our problem?"

Their reaction to your request for assistance will inform you of their character and how you should proceed.

This is sound advice as well. I will definitely talk to him about it, and see what he would do.

[NightbringerGGZ]

He's promised not to cheat, but based on his actions so far and his inability to avoid metagaming I suspect you'll catch him at it again. I would give him another chance but if he cheats again let him know that you can't run the game with him cheating and you'll have to either end the game or kick him out.

As a side note, it is possible for a player who's read the campaign to avoid cheating. I've reviewed several of the Pathfinder modules and am GMing two of them but I'm also prepping to play in another one even though I'm a bit familiar with the campaign. I just make sure to come up with an interesting character and play out the scenarios based on how that character would react with the knowledge the character would have. Talk to your player about that, and don't be afraid to point out if he starts to meta-game. In my group we usually pause from time to time to discuss things out of character, especially if we want to explain that yes we all know this is a ghast, but my character has 0 experience with undead and would probably melee it anyway.

[Toilet Cobra]

I don't think that I should have a grown man watch another grown man so that he doesn't cheat at a game that is played for fun. WTH.

He'll probably seek out weighted dice next. Maybe you should keep a scattergraph of all his die rolls to make sure his 'legitimate' rolls hit the statistical mean. ;P

[Flickerdart]

It might be interesting to know why he wants to cheat. Does he "just want to win" or is it something more?

D&D can be brutal if you prepare wrong: a rogue in a construct-heavy campaign, a trip fighter rendered useless by gigantic high-STR enemies, a paladin who can't use his mount because the party is always in cramped dungeons, a wizard whose fireballs do nothing against monsters who happen to have fire resistance and high SR, etc. If the player is afraid of being ineffective, he may feel that he needs to know what's coming ahead of time.

Try and understand why he's reading ahead, and maybe that will help you resolve the situation. If it really is just a power grab, then you can deliver your ultimatums, but if he's nervous about his effectiveness then there are other, more diplomatic options.

[Malak'ai]

What others have suggested is mostly how I'd handle it, except I'd demand everyone use easy to read dice, and everyone (icluding yourself) roll in the open and to not touch the dice until the next roll, or you ask them to, except for hidden roles that you need to make, in which case, you make a note of telling the player it's in regards to why you're rolling it eg: I'm rolling a listen check to see if your singing can be heard, I'll let you know if it becomes relevent.

[denthor]

I do not have a solution to your problem but it is nice to have validation that there is no winning I D &D

Then again I once had a DM that completely reversed every door if left was safety then you had to go right seems like a lot of thought but that means no way to cheat

[Barstro]

He has used this knowledge to get the best out of every situation, and prepare spells accordingly ahead of time. It is SEVERELY hampering the game, and in turn bringing down everyones fun.

This is certainly a problem. I can see someone reading ahead in order to help the roleplaying aspect of the game (start the right conversation, know a course of action so that the game does not stall), but doing it for personal gain is awful.

I suggest you do a couple more sessions just like the manual, and THEN do a day of encounters that would ruin him if he took spells according to what the manual says is coming up. Or, steal his spellbook.

If you'd rather be nicer than me, just move some encounters around. That shouldn't take too much additional work compared to just doing a straight manual.

As for his dice; give him easy to read ones and only let him roll attacks and damage (frankly, I think that's how it should always be. I'd rather have a DM roll in secret, or even in the open, and then tell me what the affect is on my character).

Best of luck.

[DrMartin]

well, in the end if your player wants to ruin his fun, it's kind of his own problem.

Make him clear that he does not get a chance to ruin the fun of the other player though: as long as you are running this module he's not to take initiative or suggest solutions or courses of actions, he has to sit in the backseat, so to speak, and enjoy the ride. Most probably next time he won't read ahead, and if he does, well, i guess that's how he has fun :D

If you make it public with the group or not depend on your friend's character, so you are the best judge of that. Some take every form of "public shaming" horribly bad, while for others the clean air is liberating.

[Honest Tiefling]

I am going to second playing games with him, with the suggestion of finishing this module and then never inviting him to a game again. Sometimes, you need to be non-RPG buddies with someone. Hang out with him, just don't talk about your games or let him in the ones you are running.

Sadly, this is something I've had to do. It sucks, but sometimes it's better not to try an activity you know will lead to hurt feelings and fighting.

[Red Fel]

My question is this: How do I proceed with this? I don't really want to ban him from my game because he is a good friend, but I don't know how I can explain to him that cheating at a game that has no real life implications is F*****g dumb, and extremely childish. This would not be the first time I caught him cheating. When I played with him, I always hawked his dice because they are black on black, or grey on black, and he palms them immediately upon rolling them. What can I do? HALP MEE Playground, I am at a loss.

I second what others have said. He is your friend, so sit him down for a frank exchange of views. Tell him how this upsets you, and ask him to stop.

Failing that... He is your friend, right? A good friend? Have a frank exchange of views as only two friends can.

http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/31430/81921644.gif

All joking aside, don't fall into the trap of "He is my friend, therefore I can't kick him." You can. Friendship and TTRPGs are two separate things. They can overlap, but they don't have to. You can have people at your table who aren't your friends, and friends who aren't at your table. If this situation fails to improve, put this guy in that second category.

Or, you know...

http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/26600000/Bruce-Lee-bruce-lee-26627202-320-180.gif

Just sayin'.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm going to have to disagree with all the people saying "change just enough of the adventure to punish the player for using his ill-gotten knowledge." That's not a good solution for anyone. It creates too much work for the DM who doesn't have any spare time, and IMO it sends the wrong message to the players.



My advice, then, is to adopt a zero tolerance policy. Make the price for cheating so unacceptably high that nobody will ever do it again. Here's how:

If having a player who reads the module you're running is ruining the adventure, then scrap the adventure. It's already ruined, so just let it go. Don't even bring it to a sudden close or anything, just stop where it's at and make sure everyone knows exactly why.

Then, start up a totally new module as if the previous one had never even existed. I wouldn't bother redacting any of the gold or xp the players had already gotten out of the scrapped adventure, but do take away any super cool plot-relevant items.

Make it perfectly clear that if you ever catch anyone reading ahead, this will happen again because you're a busy man who doesn't have time to put up with this BS.



This approach will get all the other players on your side against the cheater, or it will cause a riotous player uprising wherein your tyrannical DMing privileges will be permanently revoked, but either way you won't have any more trouble with players cheating in your game.

[Shnigda]

Regarding the dice roll cheating, that is fairly easy to deal with... Have rolls be made into a box on the table and if anyone touches the dice before their next roll their character has something bad happen to them (maybe lose some health, a spell slot or something like that...)

Regarding the reading ahead in the module, I would say reorder the encounters or change the monsters slightly so that enemies that were susceptible to fire now get healed by it (or something similar)

[DirePorkChop]

Okay. I have decided to change some things in the module around. The ominous looking McGuffin that could bless you with +1 CL for 24 hours, well, that curses him with -1 CL for 24 hours. The Orc hunting party you come across is now a Hobgoblin squad that has magic back up. I think things like this will make him screw his face up in dismay and horror, and really drive home the point that he's going to get exactly what he paid for. Should I ever feel like he is cheating in the future, we may well be gaming at my apartment instead of his house. There are a bunch of nasty little twists and turns that can punish an adventurer that may have knowledge beyond his own. For S&G's, whenever someone else in the party does something, and it would benefit them, I will reward them, and watch the look on his face screw up even more. I want him to realize that I am penalizing him for his stupid behavior, and he has no recourse but to accept his fate, or get angry and ultimately admit that he cheated to the whole group. The latter I know for a fact will be met with swift retribution. I don't want to be a D-bag about it, but he was a D-bag for even putting me in this situation. I will probably only do this until the end of this module, and then run the next one as is. Hopefully he will get the point. Thank you all for the awesome advice.

[thethird]

Okay. I have decided to change some things in the module around. The ominous looking McGuffin that could bless you with +1 CL for 24 hours, well, that curses him with -1 CL for 24 hours. The Orc hunting party you come across is now a Hobgoblin squad that has magic back up. I think things like this will make him screw his face up in dismay and horror, and really drive home the point that he's going to get exactly what he paid for. Should I ever feel like he is cheating in the future, we may well be gaming at my apartment instead of his house. There are a bunch of nasty little twists and turns that can punish an adventurer that may have knowledge beyond his own. For S&G's, whenever someone else in the party does something, and it would benefit them, I will reward them, and watch the look on his face screw up even more. I want him to realize that I am penalizing him for his stupid behavior, and he has no recourse but to accept his fate, or get angry and ultimately admit that he cheated to the whole group. The latter I know for a fact will be met with swift retribution. I don't want to be a D-bag about it, but he was a D-bag for even putting me in this situation. I will probably only do this until the end of this module, and then run the next one as is. Hopefully he will get the point. Thank you all for the awesome advice.

Dude chill. If you are going to get a confrontation ask yourself if it's worth it. This reads like you'll target him till he leaves. Just cut the middle man if you want him to leave ask him to, with words, like "hey why don't you just leave?" instead of "mwahahahahah you are now my plaything". If you simply cannot forgive what he did just ask him out. If you can forgive what he did just keep playing and having fun. Do not make this spiral out of control. You are an adult too.

[Barstro]

I'm going to have to disagree with all the people saying "change just enough of the adventure to punish the player for using his ill-gotten knowledge." That's not a good solution for anyone. It creates too much work for the DM who doesn't have any spare time, and IMO it sends the wrong message to the players.


How does it send the wrong message? It can effect the player ONLY if he read ahead. If he didn't, then it does not adversely affect him. If he did read ahead, he will learn that it has no beneficial effect to use that "knowledge". Since the other players have not read ahead, then it doesn't affect them at all (in a Schrodinger's Cat kind of way).

The player already demonstrated that he cannot be relied upon to take the high road; he denied cheating when first confronted. He will learn only to tone down his cheating enough to make it less obvious. However, causing cheating to be detrimental should scare him enough to not do it.

On that same note, don't bother punishing him for past actions; it's done with. Do make it so that if he cheats now, he punishes himself. But do not target him (at least after the first encounter that goes completely against the module) and do not do any dues ex machina; all that would do is prove to him that he never should have admitted to cheating in the first place.

[Nibbens]

I want him to realize that I am penalizing him for his stupid behavior, and he has no recourse but to accept his fate, or get angry and ultimately admit that he cheated to the whole group. The latter I know for a fact will be met with swift retribution. I don't want to be a D-bag about it, but he was a D-bag for even putting me in this situation. I will probably only do this until the end of this module, and then run the next one as is. Hopefully he will get the point. Thank you all for the awesome advice.

Please don't do this. There a common saying around here - out of game problem, out of game solution. In game problem, in game solution.

This is certainly an out of game problem. Attempting to deal with a out of game problem with in game mechanics is insulting at best, and harmful to everyone at the table at worst.

[Theobod]

Having had a culture of cheating at dice rolls, often quite obviously, and always vehemently denied with accompanying tantrums the moment its called out, with my old group, I instituted a new rule:

All player rolls must be witnessed by another person and announced before the dice is touched.

This cause outrage from the cheaters and nobody else, it was delivered at the opening speech of a new campaign I was beginning before chargen and adherence to it was a condition of playing in the game. The cheater (only one ever continued to play under me) made some grumbles about trust issues and similar mostly to scowls from the (interestingly much older) players and got on with the game. Best thing I ever did imho, massively increased my own enjoyment and cut out problems all in one swoop.
When I changed city, and thus gaming groups, I had no need to continue with this rule, that party rolls so abysmally near consistently I have had to reduce enemy op lvls to compensate for assumed terrible luck!

Now as for the module, I have played with people who have played in a module I have run before, I made them aware of it before the game started, they knew that barring a few details (I always change SOMETHING, i'm just fussy) the module would be the same, their response: Make a backline character, support role, no knowledge skills with low charisma, bam, problem solved. Now this may not apply so well here as they have gone ahead and read up what you were doing after it had began but I rarely if ever run modules, preferring to design my own worlds and adventures, even while working my brain is filled with DM plotting (I don't use my brain to work, just my hands) so that's the closest to applicable anecdote I have.

[mauk2]

Simplest solution would probably be to make a few minor alterations to the module. You now know exactly what he's expecting, and that makes him predictable. Swap out a few hidden loot drops with extra traps, shift around the order of encounters if the order doesn't directly affect the plot, and have a few counter-measures put in place in case he gets suspiciously prescient.

With enough alterations designed to prey upon his ill-gotten knowledge, he'll be thrown off his game. Eventually he'll start doubting how much he can trust what he thinks he knows. If his cheating doesn't get him killed early, it'll at least make sure it's no help to him.

The rest of your friends will likely be none the wiser, thinking this is how the module was originally designed. They have the same type of fun you originally planned out for them, your cheating friend can't spoil everything, and you'll get to have the fun of watching his cheating backfire in spectacular ways, with only a little bit of extra effort on your part.


This is excellent advice, and I'd even go so far as to advise that no DM, ever, should run a canned adventure 'straight up'. Yes, it is easy, and lord knows we're often busy people.

BUT, I find it makes the game a lot more fun for me behind the screen to toss in little bits of 'stuff'. Add a trap in random places, toss in an NPC encounter for fun (Hey, you guys are adventurers! If you're here to get the ogre, he's got a needle trap on a vase you can trigger against him! And once he's dead, can you maybe grab his belt? I need it for...reasons), hell, just flip where doors are. If your party is tough, add in a group of mercenaries as an extra encounter, give the Big Bad a pet, etc. It doesn't take much to make a canned adventure yours.

Most importantly, don't let this kind of thing spoil your fun, or a friendship. That's just crazy. Laugh it off, and start making modules YOURS.

[Lord Torath]

Please don't do this. There a common saying around here - out of game problem, out of game solution. In game problem, in game solution.

This is certainly an out of game problem. Attempting to deal with a out of game problem with in game mechanics is insulting at best, and harmful to everyone at the table at worst.Very well put. It's one thing to mix things up enough in the module so that his metagaming knowledge no longer helps him. It's something else entirely to actively target him. Out-of-Character discussion is definitely Step 1. I favor asking him for a solution. This lets him know that you do not find his behavior acceptable, but you still value him as a friend, and as a player in your game. He may suggest more stringent safeguards on himself than you would have stipulated. He may also reveal by his answers that he has no remorse, and you're better off ending the module or kicking him out of the group.

As far as dice rolling, having everyone roll into a box is the best option. No roll is valid if it doesn't land in the box. No roll is valid unless it is declared immediately before-hand what the roll is for. No rolls for skill checks will be valid unless called for by you (this avoids people rolling failures on tasks that you've already decided are automatic successes and vice versa). People can play with their dice all they want, but it only counts in the box.

[DirePorkChop]

Please don't do this. There a common saying around here - out of game problem, out of game solution. In game problem, in game solution.

This is certainly an out of game problem. Attempting to deal with a out of game problem with in game mechanics is insulting at best, and harmful to everyone at the table at worst.

My friend is a smart man. He will figure out that I will only penalize him if he USES the outside knowledge he has to make personal gains in the game. I appreciate the advice, and normally I think this would be the best course of action. The issue that I have is that he has already lied to me about cheating in the first place. Truth be told, the whole ordeal has left a sour taste in my mouth, and I just kind of want to be done with it.

Maybe I should keep things as is, but explain to the group that any use of outside knowledge in the game will lead to timely and severe consequences and leave it at that. I don't think anyone will realize that I am talking about one person in general, and they will assume it is just a blanket statement about metagaming. This might drive the point home to him, as well as giving him a shroud of anonymity? Maybe I am wrong. I will speak with him about what he would do if he was in my position, and tailor my response to his answer. The Hammer of Justice or the fine Art of Diplomacy, one way or another, this problem will be solved one way or another before we next game.

[Krazzman]

Okay. I have decided to change some things in the module around. The ominous looking McGuffin that could bless you with +1 CL for 24 hours, well, that curses him with -1 CL for 24 hours. ...

Please make it duck-shaped.

On another note. I would prefer an open talk about the topic. The why is important. I was critically close to just reading the frigging module (Carrion Crown book 3) because I was bored to heck with that part. And Book 4 isn't that much better atm. I really want to just know the core things to finish it asap. Because we will either go further with the Tsar AP (where my wife really liked her char and I want a conclusion too...) or start a new AP which is hopefully not as "meh" as Carrion Crown.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I suggest a more direct approach.

Go to Toys-R-Us and buy one of those nerf flanged maces. Make him sit right next to you on game night. Whenever he takes advantage of knowledge his character could not have, belt him accross the head, hard, with the mace. Repeat until he either quits metagaming or quits playing.

He knows what he did, you've confronted him. Now its time to pavlov that crap.

[Nibbens]

My friend is a smart man. He will figure out that I will only penalize him if he USES the outside knowledge he has to make personal gains in the game. I appreciate the advice, and normally I think this would be the best course of action. The issue that I have is that he has already lied to me about cheating in the first place. Truth be told, the whole ordeal has left a sour taste in my mouth, and I just kind of want to be done with it.

This is very understandable. However, my current concern comes from personal experience.

Many moons ago, I played an AP. Then DM'd the AP. Now, I'm playing the AP again with a new group. The group is aware of my previous experience with the game and knows of my thorough knowledge of all avenues the AP could take.

The group is okay with this, and there will not be an issue.

However, I've discovered that playing the AP that while I'm totally roleplaying my PC, that there are things that he would or wouldn't do - naturally - without the metagame knowledge. It makes me second guess all of my actions and really look closely at what is DM knowledge and what is character knowledge, and separate the two.

Not only is it difficult, but sometimes it's downright impossible to not use that knowledge. By penalizing the cheater for metagaming, you may be penalizing him for honestly doing what his character may have done naturally, without actually metagaming. This'll force him into the "I might as well not play" category because he's darned if he does and darned if he doesn't.

Now, don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to defend his actions as they are totally reprehensible, but I just don't think that it'll be possible for you to differentiate when he's actually doing what he wanted to do, vs what the book said was best to do. Which could lead to the conclusion of Martin Seligman's experiments in learned helplessness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness). The dogs laid down - accepting their periodic electrical shocks because they didn't know what they were doing wrong. They stopped complying with the experiment by giving up. Except, humans don't lay down and give up when their ego's are threatened...

Just my two copper.


Maybe I should keep things as is, but explain to the group that any use of outside knowledge in the game will lead to timely and severe consequences and leave it at that. I don't think anyone will realize that I am talking about one person in general, and they will assume it is just a blanket statement about metagaming. This might drive the point home to him, as well as giving him a shroud of anonymity? Maybe I am wrong. I will speak with him about what he would do if he was in my position, and tailor my response to his answer. The Hammer of Justice or the fine Art of Diplomacy, one way or another, this problem will be solved one way or another before we next game.

There are many good suggestions here. Thanks for reading. :)

***I apologize for the Wikipedia link - but it was the only thing I could find in my rush to get this out before my boss closes the door on me. lol.

[ZeroiaSD]

I'm in a game where I know what's coming- and the DM knows I know, the game literally started because he and I got talking, "Oh, do you know what adventure path is *really* cool...?"- and I use the knowledge for fun, and to push from behind. Like, empty area, I try and push the party through without acting so cautiously. Facing an undead that hates those who worship gods? The *optimal* approach would be to put our holy people in the back, the *fun* approach was, "My cleric and the paladin goes in first!". I took the later ^^ I also design with, "Hm, I can foreshadow *this* bit that'll happen later with my words, and if my character is like *that* that'll be great when I mean this NPC!" in mind.

It also probably helps I'm pretty bad at the metagaming thing- I literally forgot that most of the encounters on the first part of the adventure were immune to mind-affecting so made my spell selection mostly useless.


In short, meta can be used for good or bad- and he seriously sounds like he's using it for bad.

Combined with the dice thing? I'd kick him out. He's used two different methods so far. If denied those, seems like he'd use a third.

[Eisfalken]

I am currently running a set of modules in an adventure series for my gaming group, and I recently came across this little snare. I caught one of my players red handed cheating. He was reading the module ahead of time, and basically knew everything that was going to happen. I called him on his B******t, and he didn't confess immediately. It wasn't until I told him that I caught him that he admitted to reading the modules. I was infuriated, and actually quite hurt that he would do something like this, as it takes away my fun as well. I work full time as well as pursuing my degree right now, so having a pre generated module to run my guys through has been the only way that I can run a game for them. I am in a pickle because we also play at this person's house.

Red flag #2. You confronted him and he lied, so he's both cheater and a liar at this point.

Solution here isn't easy, but basically you have to change modules somehow. You can either jury-rig the one you have with totally new encounters, or find a way to shoehorn in a similar-but-just-slightly-different module from a different publisher. You obviously can't trust him to not use info he's already got, so don't bother with platitudes about this. This isn't about confrontation about cheating. Just change the module quietly going forward, and don't tell him you changed it.

My recommendation is, just make some written notes about various encounters that you intend to run differently and stick them in the book. They don't have to be deliberate punishment to the cheater, all you have to do is change it up significantly enough that it all works differently than he read in the book. If you have PDFs of your module, even better; you can use Reader to leave actual Post-It style notes in there now. Instead of an ambush make it a room/environment hazard; instead of a trap, make it a semi-boss fight. Just be sure to change it in a way that overall the same number and type of encounters are relatively the same. For example, if there are a lot more monster fights than puzzles, keep that, just alter the fights based on CR and whatnot.

If he questions what's in there, just inform him that you as DM elected to make some alterations to the module you felt were more entertaining. There's really no other discussion to have about it at that point. If he doesn't like the module, he isn't required to play.


My question is this: How do I proceed with this? I don't really want to ban him from my game because he is a good friend, but I don't know how I can explain to him that cheating at a game that has no real life implications is F*****g dumb, and extremely childish. This would not be the first time I caught him cheating. When I played with him, I always hawked his dice because they are black on black, or grey on black, and he palms them immediately upon rolling them. What can I do? HALP MEE Playground, I am at a loss.

Red flag #1. You don't cheat at the dice unless you're just trying to win everything. I hate to tell you, but once he started doing #2 after #1, you should have probably kicked him for being a fairly blatant cheater in every way.

But that's okay. This one is easy to fix: nobody is allowed to touch ANY dice rolled and still on the table until the DM has looked at them. If it's too much trouble to roll them in a single place to make them easier to read, then it is trivial to buy a dice tower, or even just get a small box from the craft store to tumble dice into. If players complain about it taking longer for you to read hard-to-read dice like this, tell them to direct complaints to the guy who insists on using them, that it's his choice.


If others here want to start delving into armchair psychiatry to figure out what makes him a cheater, then you guys have at it. I'm only recommending the way to "fix" the problem from a mechanical standpoint. The rest is more theory than practice.