Sorcerer exclusive spells: none?

[Specter]

So, Bards get Vicious Mockery, Clerics get Holy Aura, Druids get Animal Shapes, Paladins get Crusader's Mantle, Rangers get Swift Quiver, Warlocks get Hex and Wizards get Clone.

And Soecerers get... no class-exclusive spells? IT'S LIKE THEY DON'T EVEN CARE!...

(Also, those are just examples, we could try to make a full list of class-exclusives.)

[mgshamster]

Nothing is exclusive when bards are around.

The only solution is to kill all the bards.

[Sillybird99]

*casts disguise self*

Seriously tho, they are the only class that can cast: feather beard sneeze (17-18), blue skin (23-24), forehead eye(25-26), potted plant(41-42), bubblegum mouth(49-50), high tolerance(53-54), rogain(55-56), second chance(91-92), and cue theme music (97-98).

[Corran]

You could say that with metamagics in play, an awful lot of spells become unique for a sorcerer.

[Specter]

Jeez, you know what I mean. Spells that are cited in the book as belonging to the Sorc and no one else. Bards have nothing to steal from the Sorc list.

[eastmabl]

You could say that with metamagics in play, an awful lot of spells become unique for a sorcerer.

Twinned spells with the concentration tag is QUITE unique - and I'm glad that a bard can't just outright steal that.

[mgshamster]

Twinned spells with the concentration tag is QUITE unique - and I'm glad that a bard can't just outright steal that.

About the only thing that's even close to that is a paladin sharing a smite spell with their mount, and even that has some contentious debate and likely GM dependent.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

So, Bards get Vicious Mockery, Clerics get Holy Aura, Druids get Animal Shapes, Paladins get Crusader's Mantle, Rangers get Swift Quiver, Warlocks get Hex and Wizards get Clone.

And Soecerers get... no class-exclusive spells? IT'S LIKE THEY DON'T EVEN CARE!...

(Also, those are just examples, we could try to make a full list of class-exclusives.)In 3.5, where I started playing, Sorcerers outright shared their list with Wizards. (There were one or two spells (mainly associated specifically with Wizards' prepared casting) that were Wizard only, but not many.) I think some later splat books added a handful of sorcerer only spells, but never many. (Heck, Sorcerers didn't even have any class features that Wizards didn't get; both classes got spells and familiars and wizards got a handful of bonus feats and that was it.)

I guess what I'm saying is that a lot of players are used to the idea that Sorcerers don't have any unique Sorcerer-only spells. Even them having exclusive access to metamagic this edition is pretty unique and exciting in comparison and is a pretty powerful addition as others have noted.

[brainface]

Like, judging from the class writeups, sorcerer could gain exclusive access to elemental damage spells, but "wizards casting fireballs" is too much of an iconic image to loose.

I'd say the clear solution is to write some! And that that would lead to the question "what sort of spells should be exclusive to the sorcerer?" Like, dragon themed spells seems kind of obvious, but how does that sync with wild mage?

Rough Random idea:
dragon breath
sorcerer 3 or so.

"You breath forth a cone of energy in front of you, creating an arc of destruction that's all dragonlike and stuff"
Creatures in the area of effect take 8d6 damage if they fail a reflex save, or half that if they pass.
Roll 1d6 to determine the damage type:
1: Fire
2: Cold
3: Lightning
4: Poison
5: Acid
6: Thunder
If you are a dragon blooded sorcerer, you can choose after rolling to instead deal the damage type that matches your ancestry.

Fits wild magic because random, dragon because dragon, shadow and storm not at all. Sorcerers are weird.

[Shining Wrath]

IIRC there are about half a dozen PHB spells that are only on the sorcerer list, mostly of the "manipulate the elements" sort. AFB at the moment.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If you want a bunch of of Sorcerer-only content, or a lot of any content really, I think you're looking at the wrong edition. Just think of how many books were printed at this point in the life cycle of 3e, 3.5, PF, or 4e. Although to be fair, Sorcerers didn't have a lot of Sorc-only spells at this point in 3e/3.5's life cycle; that came later in the dragon-themed books.

[Naanomi]

My guess is that it is mostly intentional: anything a sorcerer can do by instinct a wizard could figure out the trick and replicate.

In fact I guess a lot of wizard spells started as 'did you see what that sorcerer did? How did he do that? To the laboratory!'

[Dralnu]

No, sorcerers have zero spells that are unique only to their spell list. They have a handful of spells that the Wizards do not, but iirc they're shared with druids.

I asked Mike Mearls and he said that the sorcerer avoids "complex spells." (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/620344878799523841)

I'm not satisfied with that answer, but that's their reasoning.

[Azael777]

Someone on reddit made a really useful summary of the different spell list (don't know if it's up to date though):

reddit.com/r/DnD/duplicates/4ftmht/i_made_this_reference_because_i_needed_it_to

From what I see the only spells that sorcerer has and not wizard are (but shares with other classes):

-Enhance Ability
-Warding Wind
-Daylight
-Water Walk
-Dominate Beast
-Insect Plague
-Fire Storm

[Vogonjeltz]

So, Bards get Vicious Mockery, Clerics get Holy Aura, Druids get Animal Shapes, Paladins get Crusader's Mantle, Rangers get Swift Quiver, Warlocks get Hex and Wizards get Clone.

And Soecerers get... no class-exclusive spells? IT'S LIKE THEY DON'T EVEN CARE!...

(Also, those are just examples, we could try to make a full list of class-exclusives.)

Another way to look at it is that they have access to spells from several different class lists that aren't available to those single-classed characters. A Wizard can't cast Enhance Ability, Water Walk, Dominate Beast, Insect Plague, Firestorm, or Earthquake, but a Sorcerer can, and also have otherwise Wizard unique spells like Wish or Time Stop.

[Dralnu]

Another way to look at it is that they have access to spells from several different class lists that aren't available to those single-classed characters. A Wizard can't cast Enhance Ability, Water Walk, Dominate Beast, Insect Plague, Firestorm, or Earthquake, but a Sorcerer can, and also have otherwise Wizard unique spells like Wish or Time Stop.

True, but it's still 160 spells vs 252 spells to choose from (up to EE; I didn't count for SCAG).

I think the Wizard should know more spells than the Sorcerer, as that's a big part of the draw for playing a Wizard in the first place. Just not this large of a gap. I also disagree with some of the spells they've omitted from the Sorcerer list (Melf's Acid Arrow is too complex?).

[Dr. Cliché]

Although to be fair, Sorcerers didn't have a lot of Sorc-only spells at this point in 3e/3.5's life cycle; that came later in the dragon-themed books.

That's true, but in 3.5 sorcerers weren't denied huge swathes of the wizard spell list either.

If they still had a single, shared list, then I imagine you'd hear no complaints.

As it is though, they've already lost a huge amount of versatility by having such a pitiful number of spells known, and on top of that the list of spells they're allowed to learn at all is pathetic.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

That's true, but in 3.5 sorcerers weren't denied huge swathes of the wizard spell list either.

If they still had a single, shared list, then I imagine you'd hear no complaints.

As it is though, they've already lost a huge amount of versatility by having such a pitiful number of spells known, and on top of that the list of spells they're allowed to learn at all is pathetic.Their spells known were pretty pitiful in 3e as well, barring specific tricks. This isn't to say that 5e sorcerers get a fair shake, but rather sorcerers getting the shaft relative to wizards is part of a long tradition.

[R.Shackleford]

In 3.P the sorcerer was not actually restricted to the Wiz/Sorc spell list for what spells they could learn. Primarily their spells came from the Wiz/Sorc list but they could go outside it.

From 3.5 srd (PHB atuff)
"A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however."

Bring this back to 5e, in a way different from Magical Secrets.

I would say let the Sorcerer pick their list from the choices of Bard, Cleric, Druid, or Wizard. Once chosen they take their spells from that list.

[pwykersotz]

I would love the game to have almost completely unique spell lists for each casting class. I don't mind a tiny bit of overlap, but I'd like a majority to be only usable by a particular class.

[R.Shackleford]

I would love the game to have almost completely unique spell lists for each casting class. I don't mind a tiny bit of overlap, but I'd like a majority to be only usable by a particular class.

Core Class: Specific List

Subclass: Overlap

[pwykersotz]

Core Class: Specific List

Subclass: Overlap

Yep, exactly.

[Naanomi]

Eh I'm fine with overlaps. Make it too unique and you end up with 'wizards fireball, sorcerers fireball, warlocks fireball' looking lists

[pwykersotz]

Eh I'm fine with overlaps. Make it too unique and you end up with 'wizards fireball, sorcerers fireball, warlocks fireball' looking lists

Yeah, that's also undesirable.

[R.Shackleford]

Eh I'm fine with overlaps. Make it too unique and you end up with 'wizards fireball, sorcerers fireball, warlocks fireball' looking lists

Only if you don't out effort into it.

We already have firebolt, scorching ray, burning hands, and fireball.

You could have Wizards primarily cast burst evocations, Sorcerers cast primarily cast blast AoE (burning hands), and Warlocks cast single target evocations.

Hell, we already have cantrips like Lightning Lure and Thorn Whip and then Thunderclap and Sword Burst which are essentially the exact same thing as their mirror spells... So we are already on our way of Fireball A, Fireball B, and Fireball C.

Besides, I don't recall the 3e specific casters having this problem. They each had their lists they could take from and then had a way to dip into the general list

[jas61292]

Nothing is exclusive when bards are around.

Well... except exclusive to bards. Which actually makes the only truly exclusive spell in the game Power Word Heal. Bards only get two exclusive spells, and the other is Vicious Mockery, which anyone can get for a feat.

[Gastronomie]

If the DM permits you to create a thunder/acid/cold/poison/whatever version of spells such as Scorching Ray or Fireball for a Draconic Sorcerer, I suppose that counts.

[Dudu]

Well... except exclusive to bards. Which actually makes the only truly exclusive spell in the game Power Word Heal. Bards only get two exclusive spells, and the other is Vicious Mockery, which anyone can get for a feat.
And can be half replicated by frostbite. More damage, worse save, worse damage type.

Powerword Heal seems like a waste of the lvl9 spell slot.

[RickAllison]

And can be half replicated by frostbite. More damage, worse save, worse damage type.

Powerword Heal seems like a waste of the lvl9 spell slot.

Not a PC use, but...

The party of PCs see the end in sight as the terrible spell casting dragon looks to be worn down, soon to be finally defeated. He utters a word, one which leaves the PC Bard full of dread. The dragon which had drained the party of their spells already stood up, strong as he was in the beginning, minus his spell slots.

And this is why I'm not allowed to make BBEGs anymore...

[EvanescentHero]

Dissonant Whispers too, right?

Great Old One warlocks can get that one.

[Saeviomage]

I would love the game to have almost completely unique spell lists for each casting class. I don't mind a tiny bit of overlap, but I'd like a majority to be only usable by a particular class.

I'm the opposite. I'd rather the classes were unique enough that they could all share spell lists without it being a problem.

Right now the only thing that stands in the way of that is the classes that "know" every spell on their list but are balanced by having a limited spell list (clerics, paladins, rangers).

[SharkForce]

Not a PC use, but...

The party of PCs see the end in sight as the terrible spell casting dragon looks to be worn down, soon to be finally defeated. He utters a word, one which leaves the PC Bard full of dread. The dragon which had drained the party of their spells already stood up, strong as he was in the beginning, minus his spell slots.

And this is why I'm not allowed to make BBEGs anymore...

that only sounds bad until you consider what else that spell could have been used for. assuming this isn't the party's first encounter, it's fairly likely someone is below 100 HP, and power word kill could have opened the fight with one fewer PC in it. frankly, i'd rather have the dragon that can heal itself once, i think.

and that's just power word kill, which is relatively unimpressive; much better than discovering that the dragon has used wish ==> symbol to put hundreds of different symbols all over its lair, in addition to stacking on all kinds of other protective spells.

[RickAllison]

that only sounds bad until you consider what else that spell could have been used for. assuming this isn't the party's first encounter, it's fairly likely someone is below 100 HP, and power word kill could have opened the fight with one fewer PC in it. frankly, i'd rather have the dragon that can heal itself once, i think.

and that's just power word kill, which is relatively unimpressive; much better than discovering that the dragon has used wish ==> symbol to put hundreds of different symbols all over its lair, in addition to stacking on all kinds of other protective spells.

It can still do the Wish to Symbol, that is pre-done. As for vs. PWK, the dragon could take out that same person with a breath attack and a Multiattack, which is easily done in the timeframe granted by PWH. That isn't even getting to of it is used by an ally. Imagine someone like Tiamat getting healed back to full after the attrition to get her there.

It also negates the novas some classes are very fond of. That Paladin who unloaded his extra slots for Smite, that Sorcerer who blew SP for a big attack, negated by a spell. Not to mention that it keeps the BBEG alive for the next encounter.

[Blue Lantern]

Welcome to the Wizards of the Coast, where sorcerer are an afterthought at best.

[Asmotherion]

You could say that with metamagics in play, an awful lot of spells become unique for a sorcerer.

That seems legit. Especially with quicken spell in play, the sorcerer can combine a spell with a cantrip to produce a more spectacular effect (for example grease taken with magic initiate feat+ fire bolt to ignite it) or make something undetectable with subtle spell (like cast minor illusion to make a ghost hunt a house with nothing to indicate you had something to do with it.)

There are many comboes they have unique access to, and especcially access to quicken spell is more than worth the thousand spells the wizard has access to.

[SharkForce]

It can still do the Wish to Symbol, that is pre-done. As for vs. PWK, the dragon could take out that same person with a breath attack and a Multiattack, which is easily done in the timeframe granted by PWH. That isn't even getting to of it is used by an ally. Imagine someone like Tiamat getting healed back to full after the attrition to get her there.

It also negates the novas some classes are very fond of. That Paladin who unloaded his extra slots for Smite, that Sorcerer who blew SP for a big attack, negated by a spell. Not to mention that it keeps the BBEG alive for the next encounter.

PWK basically removes all defenses. the dragon could miss you, you could save and have evasion against a breath weapon, someone else could prevent some of the damage, etc. with PWK, you pretty much just die. and not "go into death saves", but actually die.

[RickAllison]

PWK basically removes all defenses. the dragon could miss you, you could save and have evasion against a breath weapon, someone else could prevent some of the damage, etc. with PWK, you pretty much just die. and not "go into death saves", but actually die.

But you aren't looking at it from the dragon's perspective. PWK lets him take out a foe, while PWH lets him survive. As a thousand year-old flying lizard, I would rather play the long game and stay alive beyond the lifespans of the pitiful mortals before me. Besides, a Bard with a save DC of 22+ would be more than capable of locking a party down so long as he can survive their bursts.

It isn't an optimal spell against the party, it is an optimal spell to keep the dragon alive. Also, PWK is unreliable. The dragon doesn't know which party members could have more than 100 HP. Heck, my wizard is level 10 and already has 89 (he is an odd case, but still)! If he is wrong and the person has more than 100 HP, the dragon has wasted his most powerful spell slot and a turn. He would be better off tossing down an upcast Hold Person or a similar spell that could lock down several people much more reliably.

[SharkForce]

PWK can also let the dragon survive. if you're facing a stereotypical fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric party, and on the very first round you begin with one-shotting the wizard, that fight just got a heck of a lot easier to win, and a heck of a lot easier to run away from if you aren't going to win.

and no, the dragon may not know exactly how many HP someone has... but in a typical situation, i wouldn't count on surprising a dragon, and i would expect the dragon to have *some* method of getting information about you. if you're talking about in their lair, iirc many dragons have the ability to spy on you specifically granted... they may not know everything about you, but if their lair hasn't forced you to fight a bit and take some HP damage, i'd be surprised. once they've seen how much damage their traps (a known value) and minions (another known value) are dealing, they can get an idea who might be good to target with the spell.

i mean, it shouldn't have lived for thousands of years if it's just doing the equivalent of kicking in doors and charging the biggest enemy 100% of the time.

power word heal isn't bad, by any means. but i don't buy into it being so cruel on a BBEG... frankly, i'd rather that than most other level 9 spells.

[DireSickFish]

I'm more irked that Sorcerers don't get some of the spells wizards get. Wall of Force and Bigbies spells being the main ones I was itching for and then found out I couldn't take them.

[RickAllison]

PWK can also let the dragon survive. if you're facing a stereotypical fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric party, and on the very first round you begin with one-shotting the wizard, that fight just got a heck of a lot easier to win, and a heck of a lot easier to run away from if you aren't going to win.

and no, the dragon may not know exactly how many HP someone has... but in a typical situation, i wouldn't count on surprising a dragon, and i would expect the dragon to have *some* method of getting information about you. if you're talking about in their lair, iirc many dragons have the ability to spy on you specifically granted... they may not know everything about you, but if their lair hasn't forced you to fight a bit and take some HP damage, i'd be surprised. once they've seen how much damage their traps (a known value) and minions (another known value) are dealing, they can get an idea who might be good to target with the spell.

i mean, it shouldn't have lived for thousands of years if it's just doing the equivalent of kicking in doors and charging the biggest enemy 100% of the time.

power word heal isn't bad, by any means. but i don't buy into it being so cruel on a BBEG... frankly, i'd rather that than most other level 9 spells.

Oh yeah, there are much better spells. Heck, toss a Shapechange in and you have the same HP effect, but the dragon can vary his tactics by becoming something like a Kraken. Instead of PWK, a Meteor Swarm could force the entire party to take 70 damage if they save. Honestly, it's just PWK that PWH beats in this case.

Now for an aide to a big creature, that is where PWH really stands out. If Tiamat really wanted success, she should have gotten herself some high-level Bards to remove any progress the party makes.

[MaxWilson]

Like, judging from the class writeups, sorcerer could gain exclusive access to elemental damage spells, but "wizards casting fireballs" is too much of an iconic image to loose.

What's especially weird is that Absorb Elements is a Wizard/Druid/Ranger spell but not a sorc spell.

On the other hand, Careful Web and Careful Stinking Cloud are basically sorcerer-exclusive spells, and they are radically different in application from the regular Web and Stinking Cloud spells. Not having to care about friendly fire increases the combo potential enormously.


PWK basically removes all defenses. the dragon could miss you, you could save and have evasion against a breath weapon, someone else could prevent some of the damage, etc. with PWK, you pretty much just die. and not "go into death saves", but actually die.

Death Ward blocks PWK, and high-level parties can and should have Death Ward up continuously (if possible) because it is insurance against all kinds of things. When going up against an ancient dragon you can bet I'd have Death Ward up, plus as many Planar Bound Air Elementals as I can get, some skeletal archers, and a Seeming spell to make everybody look like what they're not/confuse the dragon's targeting.

[SharkForce]

What's especially weird is that Absorb Elements is a Wizard/Druid/Ranger spell but not a sorc spell.

On the other hand, Careful Web and Careful Stinking Cloud are basically sorcerer-exclusive spells, and they are radically different in application from the regular Web and Stinking Cloud spells. Not having to care about friendly fire increases the combo potential enormously.



Death Ward blocks PWK, and high-level parties can and should have Death Ward up continuously (if possible) because it is insurance against all kinds of things. When going up against an ancient dragon you can bet I'd have Death Ward up, plus as many Planar Bound Air Elementals as I can get, some skeletal archers, and a Seeming spell to make everybody look like what they're not/confuse the dragon's targeting.

- unfortunately, all of those "sorcerer-exclusive spells" are available to a variety of other classes provided they're willing to dip 3 levels of sorcerer. a rather low cost when you're getting access to almost every single unique and interesting thing sorcerers can do from it.

- death ward isn't that easy to keep up constantly. particularly if the dragon ambushes you (which it probably should, because it's got thousands of years more experience at setting up ambushes than your entire party combined) but sure, if you're launching a full-scale invasion of a dragon's lair rather than trying to sneak in, and you know exactly when the dragon is going to show up, *and* you oddly know that this particular dragon can cast power word kill (and you have reason to expect that the dragon will use that spell rather than something else) I suppose that could work.

still, I'm not sold on power word heal being particularly worse. from the dragon's perspective, a fight against 3 PCs is a lot easier than a fight against 4. especially when the one you take out is the one that has scaled to insane amounts of power. after all, take out the wizard and suddenly the party is surrounded by an army of planar bound elementals that they don't control any more.

[pwykersotz]

- unfortunately, all of those "sorcerer-exclusive spells" are available to a variety of other classes provided they're willing to dip 3 levels of sorcerer. a rather low cost when you're getting access to almost every single unique and interesting thing sorcerers can do from it.

This is tangential, but a three level dip is pretty darned significant in play. I tried a two level dip once, and swore it off. Unless you're building a character to exist only at one level, that hit is painful. Unless it's at the end of your build, in which case it won't really see much play unless your game goes that long. Seems like a bit of a niche situation to me.

[krugaan]

Oh yeah, there are much better spells. Heck, toss a Shapechange in and you have the same HP effect, but the dragon can vary his tactics by becoming something like a Kraken. Instead of PWK, a Meteor Swarm could force the entire party to take 70 damage if they save. Honestly, it's just PWK that PWH beats in this case.

Now for an aide to a big creature, that is where PWH really stands out. If Tiamat really wanted success, she should have gotten herself some high-level Bards to remove any progress the party makes.

I think it's pretty funny about that. No wonder that dragon kept Deekin around for so long! (NWN reference)

[MaxWilson]

This is tangential, but a three level dip is pretty darned significant in play. I tried a two level dip once, and swore it off. Unless you're building a character to exist only at one level, that hit is painful. Unless it's at the end of your build, in which case it won't really see much play unless your game goes that long. Seems like a bit of a niche situation to me.

This. Pretty much the only time I'd ever consider a three-level dip as a spellcaster is if I'd already given up on being a full caster and am already thinking of myself as a specialized gish, e.g. Lore Bard 6/Sorc 3/Life Cleric 1.

It's fun to conjecture a Sorcerer 3/Wizard 7 for Evard's Black Tentacles in order to measure the effect, but trying to play one up from level 1? Too painful.

TL;DR metamagic isn't that good.


- unfortunately, all of those "sorcerer-exclusive spells" are available to a variety of other classes provided they're willing to dip 3 levels of sorcerer. a rather low cost when you're getting access to almost every single unique and interesting thing sorcerers can do from it.

- death ward isn't that easy to keep up constantly. particularly if the dragon ambushes you (which it probably should, because it's got thousands of years more experience at setting up ambushes than your entire party combined) but sure, if you're launching a full-scale invasion of a dragon's lair rather than trying to sneak in, and you know exactly when the dragon is going to show up, *and* you oddly know that this particular dragon can cast power word kill (and you have reason to expect that the dragon will use that spell rather than something else) I suppose that could work.

The bolded conditions are unnecessary. It's sufficient to know that you're going to attempt something extremely dangerous. Death Ward isn't a PWK-specific countermeasure, it's a generalized insurance against whatever nasty the dragon has prepared for you. When the wizard is down to 18 HP and the dragon acts next after the wizard's turn, it is Death Ward which allows the wizard to keep his cool and not Dimension Door out of that fight immediately lest he be incinerated to death by the dragon--instead, the wizard gets to maintain Bigby's Hand for a little bit longer, or cast Disintegrate, or whatever else he's doing to contribute. Death Ward lets the Rogue scout ahead without fear of being one-shotted by a giant boulder trap or a Symbol of Disintegration; it protects you against beholder disintegration rays; it makes Magic Jar work the way it's supposed to without risk of killing you; it makes anything** risky and uncertain become less risky.

** Well, not anything. Not Plane Shift from a Rakshasa, for example. But lots of things.

And yes, a dragon that ambushes you probably won't have to deal with Death Ward, it only has to deal with whatever static defenses you have up when it ambushes you. Which is why players should proactively deal with enemies as soon as possible, if they have any hope of success, instead of waiting around for the enemy to make the first move. A dragon's hoard, like a PC's hometown, is both a fortress of strength and a point of vulnerability for the dragon.

And BTW, ambushes are why Shadow Monks and Chainlocks are worth their weight in gold.


still, I'm not sold on power word heal being particularly worse. from the dragon's perspective, a fight against 3 PCs is a lot easier than a fight against 4. especially when the one you take out is the one that has scaled to insane amounts of power. after all, take out the wizard and suddenly the party is surrounded by an army of planar bound elementals that they don't control any more.

Depends on the DM of course. RAW, Planar Binding doesn't work that way. It's not a concentration spell.

-Max

[SharkForce]

it doesn't matter if planar binding is a concentration spell or not. the elementals are (most likely) the wizard's minions. not the party's. if the wizard is down, the elementals may or may not attack the party (probably not, i'd assume some sort of standing orders to not murder the party behind his back would still be in effect), but they don't have to obey any future orders, and getting in a fight with a powerful dragon is most likely not on their personal to-do list. likewise with the undead. they'll follow whatever their last order was (if the dragon is lucky, that will involve keeping anyone from getting to his body), but you're not going to issue any new orders because the person who can issue orders is dead as a doornail, and is no longer the order-giving type.

taking a wizard out of a fight before that wizard can bring all their tools to bear is a big change. heck, it's a big difference to do that to any character, but when we're talking really high levels (like 15-20), getting a wizard out of a fight early is just a massive game-changer. the dragon may not have the safety net of a power word heal, but getting rid of the wizard? that's a huge deal.

[MaxWilson]

it doesn't matter if planar binding is a concentration spell or not. the elementals are (most likely) the wizard's minions. not the party's. if the wizard is down, the elementals may or may not attack the party (probably not, i'd assume some sort of standing orders to not murder the party behind his back would still be in effect), but they don't have to obey any future orders, and getting in a fight with a powerful dragon is most likely not on their personal to-do list. likewise with the undead. they'll follow whatever their last order was (if the dragon is lucky, that will involve keeping anyone from getting to his body), but you're not going to issue any new orders because the person who can issue orders is dead as a doornail, and is no longer the order-giving type.

taking a wizard out of a fight before that wizard can bring all their tools to bear is a big change. heck, it's a big difference to do that to any character, but when we're talking really high levels (like 15-20), getting a wizard out of a fight early is just a massive game-changer. the dragon may not have the safety net of a power word heal, but getting rid of the wizard? that's a huge deal.

When you said "they don't control any more," I thought you meant "would cease to obey because the wizard is dead." But if the non-wizards were controlling them in the first place, then the wizard must have ordered the elementals to take orders from the other PCs, and that order remains in force. So either:

(1) the other PCs never controlled the elementals in the first place and still don't; or
(2) the other PCs have the same control over the elementals that they always did.

In both cases, the death of the wizard doesn't affect their control over the elementals. Also, #2 is smarter.

Edit: BTW, why would you assume that all the elementals belongs to the wizard anyway? Elementals are gold-limited, not spell-slot limited. It makes sense to spread them around the party as much as possible, and Bards/Clerics/Druids/Wizards can all cast Planar Binding. It would not be unusual to see a party where three of the four PCs can cast Planar Binding, given the material components.

[SharkForce]

When you said "they don't control any more," I thought you meant "would cease to obey because the wizard is dead." But if the non-wizards were controlling them in the first place, then the wizard must have ordered the elementals to take orders from the other PCs, and that order remains in force. So either:

(1) the other PCs never controlled the elementals in the first place and still don't; or
(2) the other PCs have the same control over the elementals that they always did.

In both cases, the death of the wizard doesn't affect their control over the elementals. Also, #2 is smarter.

Edit: BTW, why would you assume that all the elementals belongs to the wizard anyway? Elementals are gold-limited, not spell-slot limited. It makes sense to spread them around the party as much as possible, and Bards/Clerics/Druids/Wizards can all cast Planar Binding. It would not be unusual to see a party where three of the four PCs can cast Planar Binding, given the material components.

bards and clerics can't summon elementals. planar binding with elementals that someone else summoned just makes for a really nonsensical situation. even more so than usual, which is impressive considering planar binding doesn't really let you do what the spell describes it allowing you to do in the first place.

as to the second, I'm not sure elementals can even be commanded without spell control by a typical person... do they even understand common?

[MaxWilson]

bards and clerics can't summon elementals. planar binding with elementals that someone else summoned just makes for a really nonsensical situation. even more so than usual, which is impressive considering planar binding doesn't really let you do what the spell describes it allowing you to do in the first place.

as to the second, I'm not sure elementals can even be commanded without spell control by a typical person... do they even understand common?

Why? Binding something that someone else summoned is actually a better option than binding your own creatures, most of the time, because if you bind your own creatures they go free-willed when you start casting Planar Binding, so you need a Magic Circle to keep them off you while you cast binding.

(And note that it is theoretically possible to Planar Bind creatures no one summoned at all but which you simply encountered during adventuring.)

Elementals typically speak elemental tongues like Auran and Ignan. You'll need either (1) the Tongues spell, or (2) Awakened Mind, or (3) actually learn the language to communicate with them.

[SharkForce]

planar binding increases the duration of any summoning spell used to conjure a creature. that just works out to be silly. if you both give conflicting orders, what does it do? both of you have the ability to issue orders which the creature *must* obey.

and if part 1 of your plan is to wander around until you find sleeping elementals to planar bind, i think your plan has problems from the get-go.

[Toofey]

Sorcerers were initially "lower power" (which I would disagree with) than wizards because wizard's had to memorize spells and couldn't choose to spam spells unless they specifically prepared for that. I would suppose with that restriction being taken away (in a sense that you can cast a spell multiple times without it taking up multiple memorization slots) they had to do something else to create distinction between the two classes. Especially as Cha is a more generally useful ability to boot.

[Yuki Akuma]

I'm the opposite. I'd rather the classes were unique enough that they could all share spell lists without it being a problem.

Right now the only thing that stands in the way of that is the classes that "know" every spell on their list but are balanced by having a limited spell list (clerics, paladins, rangers).

Rangers don't know every spell in their spell list. They work like Bards and Sorcerers.