Self-Replicating Dragon Army: How To!

[HoodedHero007]

Ever been a really high level wizard and felt that you're not broken enough? Well have no fear! As long as you have wish, true polymorph, boon of high magic, and boon of spell recall, you are more broken than the un-sets

the wizard true polymorphs himself into an ancient brass dragon (or if your DM counts epic boons as levels, in which case turn yourself into an ancient bronze dragon), then plane shift to the feywild, wishing in a simulacrum, giving it commands that I will explain later, dropping a personal item, wishing the time to anything you want (this is just so they don't come back and it isn't a couple months later), then plane shifting away.
Meanwhile, the simulacrum wishes in 3 simulacrums, and each of those wish in 3 simulacrums, until about 3 more repetitions, when one wishes the time to 1 day=1 minute, then some plane shift out with the personal item that they won't take with them, in the form of a gnat or something, so you have a self replicating army of dragons (they can also cast spells, if you want to use 300 firestorms in the same round)

If I did anything incorrectly, criticize that, not my tendency to suffocate people with Mage Hand​

[JackPhoenix]

Ancient Brass Dragon can't cast Plane Shift or Wish. The rest is redundant.

[Dr. Cliché]

Ancient Brass Dragon can't cast Plane Shift or Wish. The rest is redundant.

The wizard can though.

[DracoKnight]

The wizard can though.

True polymorph doesn't let you keep your class abilities/spells :smalltongue:

[pwykersotz]

You lost me when this hinged on Simulacrum. Infinite Simulacrums are already a known TO trick, including that spell (even in a slightly different capacity) is just redundant with the current methods.

[RickAllison]

You lost me when this hinged on Simulacrum. Infinite Simulacrums are already a known TO trick, including that spell (even in a slightly different capacity) is just redundant with the current methods.

You mean you weren't lost at the two Boons that were required? Especially when they were two of the most powerful? Shocker, a wizard who can run Shapechange, Foresight, and still drop a Meteor Swarm afterward can break the game.

[pwykersotz]

You mean you weren't lost at the two Boons that were required? Especially when they were two of the most powerful? Shocker, a wizard who can run Shapechange, Foresight, and still drop a Meteor Swarm afterward can break the game.

Haha, yeah, it's a lot, but I don't view it as invalid to TO with legitimate game elements, silly as it can be. But infinite simulacrums is pretty tired at this point.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

It also involves Wish being able to mess with time, which is completely dm-dependent.

No, the real way to make a self-replicating Dragon army is to True Polymorph your Simulacra into Ancient Brass Dragons. Thanks to the Metallic Dragon's Change Shape ability, these can then take the form of Archmagi, memorise Wish, and start making their own Simulacra (The Change Shape ability excludes class features, but not the Spellcasting trait, unlike True Polymorph). This does require the assumptions that a) Simulacra possess the same levels as their progenitor, allowing one to TP them into a CR 20 creature, b) Simulacra TP'd into something else cease to be Simulacra (and thus do not have the limitations on learning etc.), and c) you have the usual idiot pushover/lunatic DM required to pull off anything involving the word 'Simulacra'.

[Coffee_Dragon]

You lost me when you implied there's anything more powerful than Mage Hand.

[RickAllison]

It also involves Wish being able to mess with time, which is completely dm-dependent.

No, the real way to make a self-replicating Dragon army is to True Polymorph your Simulacra into Ancient Brass Dragons. Thanks to the Metallic Dragon's Change Shape ability, these can then take the form of Archmagi, memorise Wish, and start making their own Simulacra (The Change Shape ability excludes class features, but not the Spellcasting trait, unlike True Polymorph). This does require the assumptions that a) Simulacra possess the same levels as their progenitor, allowing one to TP them into a CR 20 creature, b) Simulacra TP'd into something else cease to be Simulacra (and thus do not have the limitations on learning etc.), and c) you have the usual idiot pushover/lunatic DM required to pull off anything involving the word 'Simulacra'.

No, here is the real (and time-consuming) way:

True Polymorph into a Shadow Dragon and torch a village or two (you only have an hour!). The villagers you killed will be resurrected as Shadows under your control. Over the course of the next few weeks, you TP them into a form that can learn (I like kobolds, and extra-win if you are Dragonborn). Then, teach the little buggers wizardry until they also become level 20 adventurers, still under your control. Arrange them into ranks and have them always know Counterspell to block any Disprl Magics attempted.

[Coffee_Dragon]

"I turn into a shadow dragon and torch the village!"

"They have a bumbling hedge wizard as their protector. He kills you with Mage Hand."

"#!&%¤"

[RickAllison]

"i turn into a shadow dragon and torch the village!"

"they have a bumbling hedge wizard as their protector. He kills you with mage hand."

"#!&%¤"

"i swallow the hand!"

[Shaofoo]

You know, you could just ask the DM if you want to win the game if this is the best that you can come up with. It is much more easier than having to depend on DM dependent abilities and very literal wish fulfillment and not to mention literally breaking the rules (yet again). It'd be like if Pun Pun was basically "This is the most powerful character ever because the DM let me add all this stuff."

The true way to have a self replicating dragon army is to ask your DM for a dragon every time since apparently the DM is bound to ask whatever we want, hell ask for Tiamats. Who can beat an army of Tiamats?

[Coffee_Dragon]

Who can beat an army of Tiamats?

Hint: it's a cantrip and begins with M

[Shaofoo]

Hint: it's a cantrip and begins with M

But each unit has five throats.

[Dr. Cliché]

True polymorph doesn't let you keep your class abilities/spells :smalltongue:

I don't see that stated anywhere in the spell description. Could you quote the relevant piece?

Also, if that was true, what would be the point of this line? "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by
the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech unless its new form is capable of such actions."

[JackPhoenix]

I don't see that stated anywhere in the spell description. Could you quote the relevant piece?

Also, if that was true, what would be the point of this line? "The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by
the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech unless its new form is capable of such actions."

I'm not sure what's the point (Propably for scrolls/wands/whatever?), but the spell also states:
The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality.

All class abilities, including spellcasting, are game statistics.

[Dr. Cliché]

All class abilities, including spellcasting, are game statistics.

Are you sure about that?

'Statistics' would normally refer to the numerical values (strength, dex, con, AC, HD, hp etc.), not Class Abilities.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Are you sure about that?

'Statistics' would normally refer to the numerical values (strength, dex, con, AC, HD, hp etc.), not Class Abilities.

I'm fairly certain that is what it means. I think there may be a tweet or Sage Advice confirming it, though I don't know where to find it, but that is certainly the consensus.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Magic Jar says you gain the statistics of the host body and then adds that you retain use of your class features. Simulacrum just says the copy uses the original's statistics, which everyone certainly has interpreted to include spellcasting and such.

[RickAllison]

Magic Jar says you gain the statistics of the host body and then adds that you retain use of your class features. Simulacrum just says the copy uses the original's statistics, which everyone certainly has interpreted to include spellcasting and such.

And for Magic Jar, it is a specific exception to the rule for taking on the statistics of the new body. Also, I think they defined statistics in the beginning of the Monster Manual, if anyone who questions this wants to look at it and get a better feel for the rules in the book.

[Dr. Cliché]

I'm fairly certain that is what it means. I think there may be a tweet or Sage Advice confirming it, though I don't know where to find it, but that is certainly the consensus.

Seems really weird to me if that's the case. I mean, to take one example, why would polymorphing yourself free you from a pact with a devil? Or do they just really suck at fine print now? :smallconfused:

Then again, I guess it's equally weird that you can keep your personality whilst completely changing your mental ability scores.

Not saying you're wrong, by the way. It looks like your interpretation is the correct one. It's just one of those things that doesn't feel right to me. :smallfrown:

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Seems really weird to me if that's the case. I mean, to take one example, why would polymorphing yourself free you from a pact with a devil? Or do they just really suck at fine print now? :smallconfused:

It wouldn't. It would just prevent you from using the abilities granted by said pact.

If it helps, think of True Polymorph's changing of your mental statistics also meaning you 'forget' how to use your normal abilities - the mind you've temporarily given yourself just isn't compatible, or can't access the training and 'muscle memory' you normally possess. (And thus Shapechange, which doesn't change your mental stats, allows you to use class abilities because you've still got your normal mind.)

[Dr. Cliché]

It wouldn't. It would just prevent you from using the abilities granted by said pact.

Nope. The pact itself is a 1st level class feature of the warlock. If you lose those warlock levels then you no longer have a pact.



If it helps, think of True Polymorph's changing of your mental statistics also meaning you 'forget' how to use your normal abilities - the mind you've temporarily given yourself just isn't compatible, or can't access the training and 'muscle memory' you normally possess. (And thus Shapechange, which doesn't change your mental stats, allows you to use class abilities because you've still got your normal mind.)

But that's the thing, you can't just remove a person's memories - all the training they've gone through, all the they've accomplished, all the failures they've learned from etc. and then expect their personalities to remain unchanged.

More over, surely the entire point of mental stats is as statistical representations of a person's mental abilities - including personality. Charisma is especially important for this and is arguably the defining stat for personality. Yet we're told that these stats can be completely changed with no change whatsoever to the person's actual personality. In which case, what the hell are those stats representing?

[Coffee_Dragon]

In which case, what the hell are those stats representing?

They are just what you say: statistical representations, abstract measures used for resolving actions. "Personality" is not represented in those numbers. A character's conceptual core is magically preserved while transformed, and any characteristics modelled by class levels, feats and so on are not erased, only suspended. Any external fluff isn't suddenly nullified either.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Nope. The pact itself is a 1st level class feature of the warlock. If you lose those warlock levels then you no longer have a pact.

You do not lose those Warlock levels. You remain a Warlock polymorphed into another creature, as dispelling the effect will helpfully reveal. Truesight reveals your original self, thus showing that you are not a true example of whatever creature you assume the form of. A Warlock polymorphed does not cease to be a Warlock, any more than a Sorcerer polymorphed suddenly loses his ancestry, because these are more than simply features and capabilities written on a sheet. Only the most obtuse possible interpretation could think otherwise. (Admittedly, this gets murky when making the polymorph permanent is considered, but that's so much of a DM judgement call thing I'm not going to take on.)


But that's the thing, you can't just remove a person's memories - all the training they've gone through, all the they've accomplished, all the failures they've learned from etc. and then expect their personalities to remain unchanged.

More over, surely the entire point of mental stats is as statistical representations of a person's mental abilities - including personality. Charisma is especially important for this and is arguably the defining stat for personality. Yet we're told that these stats can be completely changed with no change whatsoever to the person's actual personality. In which case, what the hell are those stats representing?

Firstly, given that I recently misplaced a good chunk of my memory, and by all accounts my personality was unchanged, I'm inclined to believe otherwise.

However, I see I was unclear. By placing quote marks around forget, I meant to suggest that this was not literally forgetting previous experiences, but being unable to access previous training and skills. Essentially, a loss of procedural (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procedural_memory) memory, while declarative (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declarative_memory)memory remains intact, at least as far as one's potentially temporarily decreased mental capacities can understand it. The complete seperation of mental statistics and personality is certainly a stumper, but since it's absolute RAW it's one we have to live with. Possibly they meant to emphasise that, while one's capabilities may be changed, one's inclinations are not - one retains one's alignment, affections, etc. But I'll agree with you that it's something of a difficulty.

[pwykersotz]

I'm fairly certain that is what it means. I think there may be a tweet or Sage Advice confirming it, though I don't know where to find it, but that is certainly the consensus.

I believe consensus is largely due to the MM pg 6 where it places all abilities found under a statblock under "Statistics" and the PHB pg 11 where it once again tells you that your character is a combination of roleplaying hooks, your imagination, and game statistics.

But yeah, I'm pretty sure there's a tweet clarification as well.

[JoeJ]

A self-replicating dragon army is very easy, although it's a little time consuming. TP yourself into a dragon (any color you like), then simply find another dragon and begin producing new dragons the old fashioned way.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Is - is this actually how those self-replicating human armies came about?

GROSS!

[NewDM]

Not saying you're wrong, by the way. It looks like your interpretation is the correct one. It's just one of those things that doesn't feel right to me. :smallfrown:

5E is full of this because they shifted from the clear and concise text style of 4E to the common readable style that other editions had. Its one of my biggest gripes about it. They really should have put a long common readable paragraph and then as the last sentence in bold or something to make it easy to find a very precise concise text explaining the rule in mechanical terms.

[KorvinStarmast]

True polymorph doesn't let you keep your class abilities/spells :smalltongue: Having read the spell description, I did not find that explicitly stated. (Though as a ruling it makes sense). Where the new form can cast spells spell casting can be achieved.

Is there a Sage Advice tidbit I missed?

I realize Dr cliché has also asked this, but I don't see a strong answer just yet.

[pwykersotz]

Having read the spell description, I did not find that explicitly stated. (Though as a ruling it makes sense). Where the new form can cast spells spell casting can be achieved.

Is there a Sage Advice tidbit I missed?

I realize Dr cliché has also asked this, but I don't see a strong answer just yet.

Statistics cover everything. I know there's dev clarification somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment. Here's the closest thing I could find:

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/07/26/polymorph-and-languages/

@JeremyECrawford if a PC is polymorphed into a troll (by polymorph spell) does PC retain languages, or can only speak giant?

Jeremy Crawford ‎@JeremyECrawford
If transformed by the true polymorph spell, the creature would speak what the new form speaks.


Edit: There's also the absence of the clause present in Shapechange which explicitly allows retention of class abilities. However, these are just more fuel for inference, not a hard answer.

[Asmotherion]

Not again! This has been covered so often it's almost sad to see it brought up again.