Eisfalken
2016-05-13, 09:01 PM
I meant to post this to the other post I did a week ago about this idea, but necrothreading isn't what the cool kids do, so I figured I'd bring this up here in a new thread.
First attempt at a Tashalatora-based psychic rogue (via The Mind's Eye web content). I'll make it as generic as possible, just so its easier to customize to different game situations (LA buyoff, flaws, etc.).
Monk 2 / psychic rogue 18
32 point buy: Str 10, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
1st level - Monk 1: Monastic Training (psychic rogue), Kung Fu Genius; Concentration 4, Hide 4, Listen 4, Move Silently 4, Sense Motive 4, Spot 4, Tumble 4
2nd level - Monk 2: Invisible Fist ACF (replaces Evasion); Combat Reflexes; Concentration 5, Hide 5, Listen 5, Move Silently 5, Sense Motive 5, Spot 5, Tumble 5
3rd level - Psy Rogue 1: unarmed strike 1d6; 1 PP, entangling ectoplasm; Tashalatora (psychic rogue); Autohypnosis 1, Concentration 6, Hide 6, Listen 6, Move Silently 6, Sense Motive 5, Spot 6, Tumble 6, Use Psionic Device 2
4th level - Psy Rogue 2: +1 Int; unarmed strike 1d8; 3 PP, control light; Autohypnosis 2, Concentration 7, Hide 7, Listen 7, Move Silently 7, Sense Motive 5, Spot 7, Tumble 7, Use Psionic Device 4
5th level - Psy Rogue 3: 6 PP, burst; Autohypnosis 3, Concentration 8, Hide 8, Listen 8, Move Silently 8, Sense Motive 5, Spot 7, Tumble 7, Use Psionic Device 6
6th level - Psy Rogue 4: 10 PP; Weapon Finesse; Autohypnosis 4, Concentration 9, Hide 9, Listen 9, Move Silently 9, Sense Motive 5, Spot 9, Tumble 9, Use Psionic Device 8
7th level - Psy Rogue 5: 13 PP, cloud mind; Autohypnosis 5, Concentration 10, Hide 10, Listen 10, Move Silently 10, Sense Motive 5, Spot 10, Tumble 10, Use Psionic Device 10
8th level - Psy Rogue 6: +1 Int; unarmed strike 1d10; 20 PP, control sound; Autohypnosis 8, Concentration 11, Hide 11, Listen 11, Move Silently 11, Sense Motive 5, Spot 11, Tumble 11, Use Psionic Device 11
9th level - Psy Rogue 7: 24 PP, read thoughts; Staggering Strike; Autohypnosis 10, Concentration 12, Hide 12, Listen 12, Move Silently 12, Sense Motive 5, Spot 12, Tumble 12, Use Psionic Device 12
10th level - Psy Rogue 8: 28 PP; Autohypnosis 12, Concentration 13, Hide 13, Listen 13, Move Silently 13, Sense Motive 5, Spot 13, Tumble 13, Use Psionic Device 13
11th level - Psy Rogue 9: 34 PP, greater concealing amorpha; Autohypnosis 14, Concentration 14, Hide 14, Listen 14, Move Silently 14, Sense Motive 5, Spot 14, Tumble 14, Use Psionic Device 14
12th level - Psy Rogue 10: +1 Int; 40 PP, escape detection; Psicrystal Affinity; Autohypnosis 15, Concentration 15, Craft (alchemy) 1, Hide 15, Listen 15, Move Silently 15, Sense Motive 5, Spot 15, Tumble 15, Use Psionic Device 15
13th level - Psy Rogue 11: 46 PP, dimension slide, Special Ability (Mind Cripple); Autohypnosis 16, Concentration 16, Craft (alchemy) 2, Hide 16, Listen 16, Move Silently 16, Sense Motive 5, Spot 16, Tumble 16, Use Psionic Device 16
14th level - Psy Rogue 12: 52 PP; Autohypnosis 17, Concentration 17, Craft (alchemy) 3, Hide 17, Listen 17, Move Silently 17, Sense Motive 5, Spot 17, Tumble 17, Use Psionic Device 17
15th level - Psy Rogue 13: 58 PP, psionic freedom of movement; free feat (see notes); Autohypnosis 18, Concentration 18, Craft (alchemy) 4, Hide 18, Listen 18, Move Silently 18, Sense Motive 5, Spot 18, Tumble 18, Use Psionic Device 18
16th level - Psy Rogue 14: +1 Int; 75 PP, steadfast perception, Special Ability (Skill Mastery - Autohypnosis, Concentration, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Tumble, Use Psionic Device); Autohypnosis 19, Concentration 19, Craft (alchemy) 6, Hide 19, Listen 19, Move Silently 19, Sense Motive 5, Spot 19, Tumble 19, Use Psionic Device 19
17th level - Psy Rogue 15: 85 PP, psionic dimension door; Autohypnosis 20, Concentration 20, Craft (alchemy) 8, Hide 20, Listen 20, Move Silently 20, Sense Motive 5, Spot 20, Tumble 20, Use Psionic Device 20
18th level - Psy Rogue 16: 96 PP; free feat (see notes); Autohypnosis 20, Concentration 21, Craft (alchemy) 10, Hide 21, Listen 21, Move Silently 21, Sense Motive 5, Spot 21, Tumble 20, Use Psionic Device 21, skill tricks - Spot the Weak Point
19th level - Psy Rogue 17: 106 PP, psionic true seeing, Special Ability (Feat - Expanded Knowledge (metamorphosis)); Autohypnosis 20, Concentration 22, Craft (alchemy) 10, Hide 22, Knowledge (psionics) 1, Listen 22, Move Silently 22, Sense Motive 5, Spot 22, Tumble 20, Use Psionic Device 22, skill tricks - Acrobatic Backstab, Spot the Weak Point
20th level - Psy Rogue 18: +1 stat (see notes); 121 PP, power resistance; Autohypnosis 20, Concentration 23, Craft (alchemy) 10, Hide 23, Knowledge (psionics) 2, Listen 23, Move Silently 23, Sense Motive 5, Spot 23, Tumble 20, Use Psionic Device 23, skill tricks - Acrobatic Backstab, Clarity of Vision, Spot the Weak Point
Misc. Notes
Very impressed with the amount of PP this build gets on the way up to 20th level. It doesn't have access to a huge list of powers, but the ones it has are pretty good. Easy to get more mileage with cognizance crystals for that one extra boost you need.
I didn't put hustle on the list because I've been thinking that psionic lion's charge would be a more useful ability for combat, since it's essentially a pounce. The pounce can be taken with Expanded Knowledge starting at 12th level or later. If so, drop Psicrystal Affinity for later, so you can start pouncing with flurry and Mind Cripple by 13th level. And you can still get hustle as a dorje. It's really a "dealer's choice" here: you can snag powers off your list at the cost of a feat, and just take items for anything situational you may come across.
No set feats once past 12th level, but lots of options. Could take Expanded Knowledge for extra powers from all those other lists; Hamstring or various ambush feats to debuff opponents; TOB feats for Assassin's Stance (for SA) or any other stance/maneuver useful with unarmed attacks or SA. You can technically take out Staggering Strike, but it's really powerful and hard to give up for a SA build; you don't sacrifice anything, and it will have to make a save every time you get SA to avoid being slowed up dramatically. Didn't list Imp. Natural Attack automatically, because due to psionics there is the question of whether or not that feat is strictly "as useful" as, say, another power to tap into. Technically you can make it up with EK to grab expansion or something equally useful.
Skill Mastery was a great thing to get; it came online with an Int bonus, so it squeezed in an extra skill. Allowing a Take 10 on all the stealth and perception skills was great by itself, but getting it with Autohypnosis, Concentrate, and UPD was just icing on the cake. It guarantees psionic focus and, for the most part, you'll be able to use almost any psionic item whenever needed, allowing access to stuff way off the list for you.
I took metamorphosis at 19th because that's just about the only way to get it, and it's really a good deal if the DM allows you to use it. Technically skin of proteus may be better, because even though it is only ML 7th, it is an at-will item, making it almost invaluable; though you lose access to larger/better forms, you can keep changing to heal yourself, and you can use a different skin as needed. If the DM isn't willing to allow that kind of abuse, the power may be better, though; if the DM doens't like the power at all, then it can be swapped with the ability Shadow Jumper, which is in itself a rather nifty thing to have.
Most folks will probably redo the skills; this was just a KISS way to get really useful skill high up in ranks. Probably can keep Autohypnosis and Concentration at 10 and still be useful, drop those points in Disable Device and Open Lock. I took useful skill tricks that helped land attacks (and to get up from prone, just in case), but you only need two to just use a feat for more, so you could shave more points towards Disable Device and Open Lock. I didn't make this guy a "real" skill monkey, just focused on anything that helps him get into position for SA punches, finding and avoiding enemies, etc.
I'm thinking a good choice for items to take are dorjes and power stones for specific use circumstances. For example, this would be a way to get hustle if you took psionic lion's charge, to use when you just need to move fast outside of punching the hell out of something. I'm especially grinning like the Grinch about securing access to a use of genesis to make the universe's greatest hideout for a thief and assassin (yeah, it's not 100% foolproof, but it's pretty damned good, and if you are careful will keep you safe indefinitely).
Presuming a relatively open-minded DM, the primary items are a necklace of natural weaponry for unarmed strike, and bracers of armor that use the A&EG rule that allow them to have a few armor enchantments. If the DM is being a little iffy about all that, go directly for rings of force armor and an amulet of mighty fists; if you can talk them into it, get deflection AC on one of the rings (the other could get some resistance to a common energy you're getting hit with, probably fire), and the necklace can get bonus Con. Another option for weapons is the scorpion kama from MIC, with which you can flurry and add enchantments down the line (mostly deadly precision, the only one you really "need" in this build to optimize a little more).
Psicrystal was taken mostly to have the options it grants, which can be very useful in a few situations. Having a construct pick a potentially trapped lock, tug on small things here and there, or just keep a watch for trouble could all be useful. But on the other hand, if there is a very clutch feat choice that makes the difference, we can safely dump this guy for something more useful.
I didn't do equipment yet, aside from musing on what we can dump from the core build for items. If the 3.0 stuff is available, that's probably the best starting place, since you can add to them as you go. But some of the rest is a little iffier, because it's an all-or-nothing purchase that doesn't really have any increments to it. Will post more on gear once there's a chassis to put it on.
More I think about it, the more I think we can drop Autohypnosis and Concentration down to 10 to grab other skills that could be more useful to a stealthy guy, so that might be the first thing to alter here.
So how do I improve this thing now? What tweaks do we make to get it doing more and/or better?
Edit: Forgot note about the 20th level stat bonus. I'm iffy where to put it; presuming that there will, hopefully, be some source of wish to grant inherent bonuses, then it isn't out of line to presume that a +5 to things is all that far off. Ideally, you want to keep stats odd-numbered for that reason, so you don't waste a point later. Should it go to Int, and just presume a best-case scenario? Or should it boost Wis or Str a tiny bit higher?
First attempt at a Tashalatora-based psychic rogue (via The Mind's Eye web content). I'll make it as generic as possible, just so its easier to customize to different game situations (LA buyoff, flaws, etc.).
Monk 2 / psychic rogue 18
32 point buy: Str 10, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
1st level - Monk 1: Monastic Training (psychic rogue), Kung Fu Genius; Concentration 4, Hide 4, Listen 4, Move Silently 4, Sense Motive 4, Spot 4, Tumble 4
2nd level - Monk 2: Invisible Fist ACF (replaces Evasion); Combat Reflexes; Concentration 5, Hide 5, Listen 5, Move Silently 5, Sense Motive 5, Spot 5, Tumble 5
3rd level - Psy Rogue 1: unarmed strike 1d6; 1 PP, entangling ectoplasm; Tashalatora (psychic rogue); Autohypnosis 1, Concentration 6, Hide 6, Listen 6, Move Silently 6, Sense Motive 5, Spot 6, Tumble 6, Use Psionic Device 2
4th level - Psy Rogue 2: +1 Int; unarmed strike 1d8; 3 PP, control light; Autohypnosis 2, Concentration 7, Hide 7, Listen 7, Move Silently 7, Sense Motive 5, Spot 7, Tumble 7, Use Psionic Device 4
5th level - Psy Rogue 3: 6 PP, burst; Autohypnosis 3, Concentration 8, Hide 8, Listen 8, Move Silently 8, Sense Motive 5, Spot 7, Tumble 7, Use Psionic Device 6
6th level - Psy Rogue 4: 10 PP; Weapon Finesse; Autohypnosis 4, Concentration 9, Hide 9, Listen 9, Move Silently 9, Sense Motive 5, Spot 9, Tumble 9, Use Psionic Device 8
7th level - Psy Rogue 5: 13 PP, cloud mind; Autohypnosis 5, Concentration 10, Hide 10, Listen 10, Move Silently 10, Sense Motive 5, Spot 10, Tumble 10, Use Psionic Device 10
8th level - Psy Rogue 6: +1 Int; unarmed strike 1d10; 20 PP, control sound; Autohypnosis 8, Concentration 11, Hide 11, Listen 11, Move Silently 11, Sense Motive 5, Spot 11, Tumble 11, Use Psionic Device 11
9th level - Psy Rogue 7: 24 PP, read thoughts; Staggering Strike; Autohypnosis 10, Concentration 12, Hide 12, Listen 12, Move Silently 12, Sense Motive 5, Spot 12, Tumble 12, Use Psionic Device 12
10th level - Psy Rogue 8: 28 PP; Autohypnosis 12, Concentration 13, Hide 13, Listen 13, Move Silently 13, Sense Motive 5, Spot 13, Tumble 13, Use Psionic Device 13
11th level - Psy Rogue 9: 34 PP, greater concealing amorpha; Autohypnosis 14, Concentration 14, Hide 14, Listen 14, Move Silently 14, Sense Motive 5, Spot 14, Tumble 14, Use Psionic Device 14
12th level - Psy Rogue 10: +1 Int; 40 PP, escape detection; Psicrystal Affinity; Autohypnosis 15, Concentration 15, Craft (alchemy) 1, Hide 15, Listen 15, Move Silently 15, Sense Motive 5, Spot 15, Tumble 15, Use Psionic Device 15
13th level - Psy Rogue 11: 46 PP, dimension slide, Special Ability (Mind Cripple); Autohypnosis 16, Concentration 16, Craft (alchemy) 2, Hide 16, Listen 16, Move Silently 16, Sense Motive 5, Spot 16, Tumble 16, Use Psionic Device 16
14th level - Psy Rogue 12: 52 PP; Autohypnosis 17, Concentration 17, Craft (alchemy) 3, Hide 17, Listen 17, Move Silently 17, Sense Motive 5, Spot 17, Tumble 17, Use Psionic Device 17
15th level - Psy Rogue 13: 58 PP, psionic freedom of movement; free feat (see notes); Autohypnosis 18, Concentration 18, Craft (alchemy) 4, Hide 18, Listen 18, Move Silently 18, Sense Motive 5, Spot 18, Tumble 18, Use Psionic Device 18
16th level - Psy Rogue 14: +1 Int; 75 PP, steadfast perception, Special Ability (Skill Mastery - Autohypnosis, Concentration, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Tumble, Use Psionic Device); Autohypnosis 19, Concentration 19, Craft (alchemy) 6, Hide 19, Listen 19, Move Silently 19, Sense Motive 5, Spot 19, Tumble 19, Use Psionic Device 19
17th level - Psy Rogue 15: 85 PP, psionic dimension door; Autohypnosis 20, Concentration 20, Craft (alchemy) 8, Hide 20, Listen 20, Move Silently 20, Sense Motive 5, Spot 20, Tumble 20, Use Psionic Device 20
18th level - Psy Rogue 16: 96 PP; free feat (see notes); Autohypnosis 20, Concentration 21, Craft (alchemy) 10, Hide 21, Listen 21, Move Silently 21, Sense Motive 5, Spot 21, Tumble 20, Use Psionic Device 21, skill tricks - Spot the Weak Point
19th level - Psy Rogue 17: 106 PP, psionic true seeing, Special Ability (Feat - Expanded Knowledge (metamorphosis)); Autohypnosis 20, Concentration 22, Craft (alchemy) 10, Hide 22, Knowledge (psionics) 1, Listen 22, Move Silently 22, Sense Motive 5, Spot 22, Tumble 20, Use Psionic Device 22, skill tricks - Acrobatic Backstab, Spot the Weak Point
20th level - Psy Rogue 18: +1 stat (see notes); 121 PP, power resistance; Autohypnosis 20, Concentration 23, Craft (alchemy) 10, Hide 23, Knowledge (psionics) 2, Listen 23, Move Silently 23, Sense Motive 5, Spot 23, Tumble 20, Use Psionic Device 23, skill tricks - Acrobatic Backstab, Clarity of Vision, Spot the Weak Point
Misc. Notes
Very impressed with the amount of PP this build gets on the way up to 20th level. It doesn't have access to a huge list of powers, but the ones it has are pretty good. Easy to get more mileage with cognizance crystals for that one extra boost you need.
I didn't put hustle on the list because I've been thinking that psionic lion's charge would be a more useful ability for combat, since it's essentially a pounce. The pounce can be taken with Expanded Knowledge starting at 12th level or later. If so, drop Psicrystal Affinity for later, so you can start pouncing with flurry and Mind Cripple by 13th level. And you can still get hustle as a dorje. It's really a "dealer's choice" here: you can snag powers off your list at the cost of a feat, and just take items for anything situational you may come across.
No set feats once past 12th level, but lots of options. Could take Expanded Knowledge for extra powers from all those other lists; Hamstring or various ambush feats to debuff opponents; TOB feats for Assassin's Stance (for SA) or any other stance/maneuver useful with unarmed attacks or SA. You can technically take out Staggering Strike, but it's really powerful and hard to give up for a SA build; you don't sacrifice anything, and it will have to make a save every time you get SA to avoid being slowed up dramatically. Didn't list Imp. Natural Attack automatically, because due to psionics there is the question of whether or not that feat is strictly "as useful" as, say, another power to tap into. Technically you can make it up with EK to grab expansion or something equally useful.
Skill Mastery was a great thing to get; it came online with an Int bonus, so it squeezed in an extra skill. Allowing a Take 10 on all the stealth and perception skills was great by itself, but getting it with Autohypnosis, Concentrate, and UPD was just icing on the cake. It guarantees psionic focus and, for the most part, you'll be able to use almost any psionic item whenever needed, allowing access to stuff way off the list for you.
I took metamorphosis at 19th because that's just about the only way to get it, and it's really a good deal if the DM allows you to use it. Technically skin of proteus may be better, because even though it is only ML 7th, it is an at-will item, making it almost invaluable; though you lose access to larger/better forms, you can keep changing to heal yourself, and you can use a different skin as needed. If the DM isn't willing to allow that kind of abuse, the power may be better, though; if the DM doens't like the power at all, then it can be swapped with the ability Shadow Jumper, which is in itself a rather nifty thing to have.
Most folks will probably redo the skills; this was just a KISS way to get really useful skill high up in ranks. Probably can keep Autohypnosis and Concentration at 10 and still be useful, drop those points in Disable Device and Open Lock. I took useful skill tricks that helped land attacks (and to get up from prone, just in case), but you only need two to just use a feat for more, so you could shave more points towards Disable Device and Open Lock. I didn't make this guy a "real" skill monkey, just focused on anything that helps him get into position for SA punches, finding and avoiding enemies, etc.
I'm thinking a good choice for items to take are dorjes and power stones for specific use circumstances. For example, this would be a way to get hustle if you took psionic lion's charge, to use when you just need to move fast outside of punching the hell out of something. I'm especially grinning like the Grinch about securing access to a use of genesis to make the universe's greatest hideout for a thief and assassin (yeah, it's not 100% foolproof, but it's pretty damned good, and if you are careful will keep you safe indefinitely).
Presuming a relatively open-minded DM, the primary items are a necklace of natural weaponry for unarmed strike, and bracers of armor that use the A&EG rule that allow them to have a few armor enchantments. If the DM is being a little iffy about all that, go directly for rings of force armor and an amulet of mighty fists; if you can talk them into it, get deflection AC on one of the rings (the other could get some resistance to a common energy you're getting hit with, probably fire), and the necklace can get bonus Con. Another option for weapons is the scorpion kama from MIC, with which you can flurry and add enchantments down the line (mostly deadly precision, the only one you really "need" in this build to optimize a little more).
Psicrystal was taken mostly to have the options it grants, which can be very useful in a few situations. Having a construct pick a potentially trapped lock, tug on small things here and there, or just keep a watch for trouble could all be useful. But on the other hand, if there is a very clutch feat choice that makes the difference, we can safely dump this guy for something more useful.
I didn't do equipment yet, aside from musing on what we can dump from the core build for items. If the 3.0 stuff is available, that's probably the best starting place, since you can add to them as you go. But some of the rest is a little iffier, because it's an all-or-nothing purchase that doesn't really have any increments to it. Will post more on gear once there's a chassis to put it on.
More I think about it, the more I think we can drop Autohypnosis and Concentration down to 10 to grab other skills that could be more useful to a stealthy guy, so that might be the first thing to alter here.
So how do I improve this thing now? What tweaks do we make to get it doing more and/or better?
Edit: Forgot note about the 20th level stat bonus. I'm iffy where to put it; presuming that there will, hopefully, be some source of wish to grant inherent bonuses, then it isn't out of line to presume that a +5 to things is all that far off. Ideally, you want to keep stats odd-numbered for that reason, so you don't waste a point later. Should it go to Int, and just presume a best-case scenario? Or should it boost Wis or Str a tiny bit higher?