Advice: Filling a role

[Nelyo]

Hey all,

Could do with a bit of advice on something that ought to be simple. I think DnD 3.5 has ruined me in the overthinking department. I need to pick a class - I don't know how forgiving 5e is with not filling the traditional roles (Meat Shield, Heal Bot, Skill Monkey, Doom Mage) but our party consists of: Monk (Shadow discipline thing), Barbarian and a Sorcerer (Likely a wild sorcerer). That leaves the cleric role, and I DO NOT want to play a cleric. I can compromise though.

I thumbed through the PHB at length over the last week and decided paladin or bard would the most fun for me. Specifically Lore Bard or Paladin oaths: Ancient/Vengeance.

Lore Bard Pros: Many skills. I can pick up the slack with healing thanks to the bard spell list, and other goodies via spell secrets. I am eager to test cutting words in play. And the thought of counter spell working in concert with jack of all trades and peerless skill just tickles me.

Lore Bard Cons: I would be encroaching on the Sorcerer's territory with spells most likely. I would also be competing for items. I am not impressed with bard items, and would take a cheesy level dip or two in warlock to gain access to staff of the magi (assuming the campaign lasts long enough). Eldritch blast is cool too, but not high on my priority list.

Paladin Pros: Another meat shield is never a bad thing. I like the idea of significantly chunking something down from full health, or taking a wounded enemy and bringing them to negative a lot HP with the smite burst. I am helpful by just being awesome thanks to auras. The extra healing doesn't hurt, and Holy Avenger is the sexiest sword that ever did sword.

Paladin Cons: We already have a meat shield who is probably better at being a meat shield than the paladin. We also have a secondary front-line combatant with the monk who will likely deal beau-coup burst damage thanks to the way flurry of blows works now. Also, the MAD issue is... maddening. I am seeing a Templar from Dragon Age kind of feel to the character. Shield Master, Mage Slayer and Resilient CON would be on my list of feats to take. But then that gimps his ability scores. I was thinking something along the lines of:

STATS: STR 16, DEX 10, CON 13, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16
Human Variant 1st: Shield Master, 4th: +2 STR, 8th: +2 CHA, 12th: Resilient (CON), 16th Mage Slayer, 19th +2 CHA.
The only issue is that by the time the character in question gets to level 16, Mage Slayer will likely be superfluous. Sacrificing the STR at early levels, would likely gimp his melee ability, same with CHA at 8th level, and his spell save DCs for things like banish and hold person/monster should I go the vengeance route, which is the more likely. Ancients is in the running because of aura of warding, and the delayed orbital strike ion cannon a-la moonbeam.

Anyway, back to the original point - I would like to play something that is not superfluous - a role that is not being fulfilled by someone else. I do not want to be that-other-guy. Any thoughts or advice/opinions you can give me would be greatly appreciated as I make a choice one way or another.

-Nelyo

[Sillybird99]

Bard could be a solid choice. Lore for more casting support or valour for more martial support. Bards can fill most roles aside from being main tank really. My vote is for bard, a little bit of healing, little bit of damage, inspiration, and melee if you go valor.

[Naanomi]

You have no one likely taking any of the INT skills in that party; a lore bard actually focusing on lore would be pretty useful

[Foxhound438]

For the paladin, ancients is really good. Resistance to spell damage plus charisma bonus to all your saves? sure thing.

I would personally start 16/8/14/8/10/16, and forget about resilient. Your saves are going to be pretty great by that level anyways, thanks to aura of protection. Max str at level 12, consider later another feat or just bump con to 16. You'll also be about as hard to kill as the barbarian, considering you have lay on hands and generally will have way better AC.

If you go lore bard, grab aura of vitality for one of your magical secrets at level 6. it's a solid healing spell, giving a total of 20d6 hp if you can concentrate the full duration. Extra points if you go the 1 level life cleric dip for an extra 50 total hp. Average would be 120, so about enough to half-heal a level 20 barbarian with your 3rd level spell slot.

Edit: I'd like to point out that the monk really doesn't fit the "skill monkey" motif, but is rather a thing of its own. Not that it's valueless to a party, it's just a different character archetype altogether.

[AmayaElls]

Lore Bard Pros: Many skills. I can pick up the slack with healing thanks to the bard spell list, and other goodies via spell secrets. I am eager to test cutting words in play. And the thought of counter spell working in concert with jack of all trades and peerless skill just tickles me.

Lore Bard Cons: I would be encroaching on the Sorcerer's territory with spells most likely. I would also be competing for items. I am not impressed with bard items, and would take a cheesy level dip or two in warlock to gain access to staff of the magi (assuming the campaign lasts long enough). Eldritch blast is cool too, but not high on my priority list.


Sorc's are mostly about blasty spells, and while you may gain a few blasty spells with magical secrets a bard is mostly focussed on illusion, buffing, debuffing and utility spells. Add this to the ability to help your party out with many skill checks and you fill a very good roll. This really would work either as a Lore or a Valour bard. I don't think you will find you are stepping on the toes of the Sorc at all.

[miner3203]

I'd go with Lore Bard, personally. You don't need a dedicated healer in 5e, although they're certainly nice to have around, but Bard can heal, so you'll be fine there. And like Naanomi said, information is always useful. Always. (Unless it's something like the specific percentage composition of the stone boulder to your left, but I'm sure a creative player could figure out a use for even that...)

[Naanomi]

Half-elf lore bard sage...maybe with one level dip in Knowledge Cleric at level 1?

9/14/14/12/13/16

Medium armor and shield

12 proficiencies by level 4... Expertise in 6 skills (all five intelligence skills and one to spare?)

Spells to taste, not stepping on the toes of others in the party as you progress...

[Firechanter]

If you go Paladin, go ahead with that stat array, but for all that is good and holy pick Resilient as your starting feat to round up your Con to 14. Trust me, you will NOT be happy trying to survive 11 levels with a scrawny +1 Con mod. You can't really call that a meatshield.
FWIW, I do play a Pally with +2 Con mod and I've taken to thinking of him as having 3 Hit Points: he can take three hits of the typical like-leveled monster and goes down on the fourth. No other PC in the party has eaten dirt half as often as him. Whereas the Barb refuses to draw aggro and never goes reckless.

Anyway, for your party, it would prolly be smarter to go Bard.
Or Pally/Bard Multi - after all, why not?

[Slipperychicken]

What level are you starting at?

If 11th or higher, you could be a Valor Bard 10/Life Cleric 1, pick aura of vitality, and use that for healing. With the life cleric boost, it's 3rd level spell that gets you about 120 hit points healed (probably the best healing-bang for your buck, after Prayer of Healing). Being a valor bard means you can act like a fighty-type with your extra attack. Also lets you prepare some goodies like healing word.

If 7th or higher, you can do the same thing with lore bard6/life cleric 1.


@Bards in general: If you still want to melee without getting too MAD, you could take PAM as a feat with shillelagh as one of your magical secrets spells, then swing 2-3 times a round using your casting stat.

@Lore Bard Cons: It's not as bad as you think. Cutting words and bardic inspiration alone already give you your own thing. Snagging spells off other classes' lists is also a great way to differentiate yourself. Ask your sorcerer what spells he actually picked so you can plan your own. Even if he got haste already, it's just a fantastic spell when you're not sure what else to do with your concentration.

@Healing concerns: You can get a surprising amount done through the healer feat. Once per short rest 1d6+4+level is no joke, that can save you spell slots. It's like giving the whole party a slightly better, non-combat version of second wind. I'd still want some way to do healing, but no matter what, your most important resource for not dying is going to be your brain and not your healing powers. Remember that: Your head will keep you alive a lot longer than Cure Wounds will.

@Being a Cleric: I'm playing a life cleric healbot right now, and I don't feel neutered at all. You can output a decent amount of damage from spiritual weapon and sacred flame, plus some more if you put down spirit guardians too. For a second level slot, having a spiritual weapon's 1d8+4 (8.5) for up to 10 rounds is a lot better than a paladin smiting once for 3d8 (13.5). Just conserve those spell slots and try to focus on things that buff your frontline and let them do their job better.

[bid]

Half-elf lore bard sage...maybe with one level dip in Knowledge Cleric at level 1?
I usually don't like cross-dipping, but this is one of the exception.
- fixes your weak armor
- gives you guidance and bless, which you can change every day
- expertise in Int skills

It will cover your lack of Int class without stepping on the sorcerer's toes.


If you want to stay away from healbot, grab inspiring leader at lore 4.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

it's just a different character archetype altogether.

All, together: It's just a different character archetype! (https://youtu.be/0wxp-NxJny8?t=87)

Sorry, I'll get my coat...

[PotatoGolem]

On the broader original point: super forgiving. You don't really need to fill all the roles at all. Dedicated healer is especially unnecessary, because in combat healing tends to be weak. We've run campaigns so far with monk/paladin/lock, cleric/palabard/rogue (then druid ), and paladin/monk/wizard, and all of those have been very effective despite not filling all the archetypes.

If you must heal though, I've found paladin/bard to be a great combo- LOH lets you heal either a lot at once or very sustainably, and bard lets you get healing word to pop people up when they're knocked out.

[Nelyo]

Wow! This was better than I could have hoped for - I wasn't expecting so many responses. Thanks guys!

It's looking like everyone's kind of gunning for the lore bard, and I would tend to agree. It would shore up the lack of skills on everyone's part, and I like that someone addressed the elephant in the room - a lore bard that actually has lore skills XD. Also, as has been said, the sorcerer's spell list is more geared towards evocation. I, myself, prefer subtleties like illusion, abjuration and enchantment so that works just fine. My only concern is if the sorcerer decides to take the few illusion/enchantment spells on their list and make them spells known... I don't know. I'll have to play that one by ear, she is relatively fussy at times.

Also, yes. Yes to everything Slippery Chicken just said about brains preventing death, not healing. I can account for myself, everyone else is a different story though :p.

One thing kinda troubles me still though: Magical Items. If you take a look at the items geared toward the war/wiz/sorc, they're kind of amazing - Particularly all the bennies to AC, Saves, Advantage on spells, and the +2 to spell DCs (I.E Staves + Robe of the Magi). You take a look at the bard-only items, and they're instruments that allow you to cast spells which... is kind of meh to me. Suire, they allow you to use spell slots for other stuff, but, eh. There's nothing in there to make your spells more potent, etc. Any advice here? It's pretty much one of the few reasons why I was dipping warlock. But again - the crossover with the sometimes-fussy sorcerer.

To the paladin/bard combo - This bard is going to definitely be a back-line caster bard, no melee here :P. The knowledge cleric looks extremely enticing, but I'm not entirely sure how I would justify it with the character's personality. If I play the bard, it will be largely inspired by the irreverent musings and sharp wit of one Tyrion Lannister ("That's what I do - I drink and I know things") no place I can perceive for religion. But the min-maxer in me is drooling at the prospect of medium armor, more skills, and being able to cast bless >.< Any thoughts on how I can make this work thematically? It's not clicking for me theme-wise.

As to the Paladin builds - thanks for the advice! That's actually probably going to be the next class I try out, if I ever get the opportunity to play 5E again. I will likely be coming back for more in depth build advice, if I do. Casters are second-nature to me, I always end up playing one. Hybrids and fighters are more foreign to me.

[Naanomi]

You only have one level in cleric... You are a bright student but the studious environment of the Temple of Knowledge just doesn't fit your free spirit; and so you hit the road with a guitar on your back and never looked back

[miner3203]

One thing kinda troubles me still though: Magical Items. If you take a look at the items geared toward the war/wiz/sorc, they're kind of amazing - Particularly all the bennies to AC, Saves, Advantage on spells, and the +2 to spell DCs (I.E Staves + Robe of the Magi). You take a look at the bard-only items, and they're instruments that allow you to cast spells which... is kind of meh to me. Suire, they allow you to use spell slots for other stuff, but, eh. There's nothing in there to make your spells more potent, etc. Any advice here? It's pretty much one of the few reasons why I was dipping warlock. But again - the crossover with the sometimes-fussy sorcerer.

Don't worry too much about magic items; they're (in my opinion) not a major part of what makes a character function. That being said, I think the Instruments of the Bards are pretty awesome in terms of flavor (It's a magical lute/mandolin/whatever else there is! How could you go wrong with that?), but if you're really worried about having a subpar power level, just talk with your DM about maybe expanding the spell list or adding a +2 bonus to the instruments or something.


You only have one level in cleric... You are a bright student but the studious environment of the Temple of Knowledge just doesn't fit your free spirit; and so you hit the road with a guitar on your back and never looked back

I like this idea...and I kind of want to play a character like that now...

[Gtdead]

I've played both 3.5e and 5e. I never understood why people think that healing is a role.

The role is called "support". It's the guy that always makes sure that the party has everything it needs to perform adequately. How he will accomplish that depends on a lot of factors.

For that particular party, a Lore bard is a natural fit and probably all around better than cleric. Strong individual characters but lack of utility casting and good out of combat ability. Bard is good at both, and he has a lot of dice manipulation which is always a nice ability to have.

[Sigreid]

You can play anything you want and be OK. It isn't absolutely required to have a healer. It helps, but if you really don't want to do that, your party can get by.

[Naanomi]

Healing was essentially a role in 1e. HP were limited, non-magical healing was ponderous, there were very limited options to mitigate damage, and defenses were never high enough to prevent damage with regularity. There were many times in 1e that we would get out of a long fight, heal, rest, then heal again. DNPC healers were not unheard of

Between that (and maybe MMO expectations) that people conflux healing with support

[Citan]

I thumbed through the PHB at length over the last week and decided paladin or bard would the most fun for me. Specifically Lore Bard or Paladin oaths: Ancient/Vengeance.

I am seeing a Templar from Dragon Age kind of feel to the character. Shield Master, Mage Slayer and Resilient CON would be on my list of feats to take. But then that gimps his ability scores. I was thinking something along the lines of:

STATS: STR 16, DEX 10, CON 13, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16
Human Variant 1st: Shield Master, 4th: +2 STR, 8th: +2 CHA, 12th: Resilient (CON), 16th Mage Slayer, 19th +2 CHA.
The only issue is that by the time the character in question gets to level 16, Mage Slayer will likely be superfluous. Sacrificing the STR at early levels, would likely gimp his melee ability, same with CHA at 8th level, and his spell save DCs for things like banish and hold person/monster should I go the vengeance route, which is the more likely. Ancients is in the running because of aura of warding, and the delayed orbital strike ion cannon a-la moonbeam.

-Nelyo
Hi! ,)
Many things to react on here. ^^

First off.
1. Lore Bard: great choice overall, especially if you plan on staying away from melee (although it can work great also, see below). Also, there is no reason why you would tip-toe on Sorcerer unless you want to, because there are too many good spells to poach. Especially if you have no Paladin (Auras, Elemental Weapon), Cleric (Bless, Spiritual Weapon, Shield of Faith, Warding Bond, Spirit Guardians) or Druid (Shillelagh, Entangle, Conjure Animals, etc).
Also, from what I know (didn't have a chance to get one yet but I read it here), Bard's magical instruments give disadvantage to targets of bard spells. That is awesome.

2. Paladin: he can be a pretty decent to good meat shield, especially if you make him S&B Ancients. He would also bring many interesting buffs for your party.

3. Templar build: I see a way for this to work (2 actually), and it can be pretty fun.
- as a single-class Paladin, choose another oath: Vengeance (advantage against an enemy) to go striker or Devotion (+CHA to hit) to go all-around. Both would circumvent a somewhat lesser Strength so you can be sure you hit. As for damage, +2 per hit (STR 16 vs STR 20) is not so important for a Paladin, since you can smite when you really need to hurt.
- as a multiclass Paladin / Lore Bard (would work with Warlock but I'm sticking to your build idea here ;)): just grab Shillelagh with Magic Secrets.

Actually, I would suggest a mix Paladin / Lore Bard anyway.
If you get up to Paladin 6 / Lore Bard 6 you get everything you need to be a good frontliner and still get useful spells, then develop as you wish. With the Shillelagh included, you just have to bump your CHA so you will have space for Polearm Master, Warcaster, Inspiring Leader etc.

That way, you can either accompany your melee friends into the fight, empowering them with Bless (helps Sorcerer too by the way ^^) or Crusader's Mantle, or fall back a bit to cast powerful spells.

If you prefer being a nearly full caster, 2 level dip in Paladin (for melee options) or 1 level dip in Cleric is also very solid. ;)

If you don't like multiclassing for any reason though, Lore Bard is the best choice considering your current party.

[Nelyo]

Hi! ,)
Many things to react on here. ^^

First off.
1. Lore Bard: great choice overall, especially if you plan on staying away from melee (although it can work great also, see below). Also, there is no reason why you would tip-toe on Sorcerer unless you want to, because there are too many good spells to poach. Especially if you have no Paladin (Auras, Elemental Weapon), Cleric (Bless, Spiritual Weapon, Shield of Faith, Warding Bond, Spirit Guardians) or Druid (Shillelagh, Entangle, Conjure Animals, etc).
Also, from what I know (didn't have a chance to get one yet but I read it here), Bard's magical instruments give disadvantage to targets of bard spells. That is awesome.

2. Paladin: he can be a pretty decent to good meat shield, especially if you make him S&B Ancients. He would also bring many interesting buffs for your party.

3. Templar build: I see a way for this to work (2 actually), and it can be pretty fun.
- as a single-class Paladin, choose another oath: Vengeance (advantage against an enemy) to go striker or Devotion (+CHA to hit) to go all-around. Both would circumvent a somewhat lesser Strength so you can be sure you hit. As for damage, +2 per hit (STR 16 vs STR 20) is not so important for a Paladin, since you can smite when you really need to hurt.
- as a multiclass Paladin / Lore Bard (would work with Warlock but I'm sticking to your build idea here ;)): just grab Shillelagh with Magic Secrets.

Actually, I would suggest a mix Paladin / Lore Bard anyway.
If you get up to Paladin 6 / Lore Bard 6 you get everything you need to be a good frontliner and still get useful spells, then develop as you wish. With the Shillelagh included, you just have to bump your CHA so you will have space for Polearm Master, Warcaster, Inspiring Leader etc.

That way, you can either accompany your melee friends into the fight, empowering them with Bless (helps Sorcerer too by the way ^^) or Crusader's Mantle, or fall back a bit to cast powerful spells.

If you prefer being a nearly full caster, 2 level dip in Paladin (for melee options) or 1 level dip in Cleric is also very solid. ;)

If you don't like multiclassing for any reason though, Lore Bard is the best choice considering your current party.

Thanks for the in-depth analysis!

1: I actually agree with you on all counts on the bard. I actually just took a look at the Sorcerer spells known list, and they get a whopping 15 spells known at level 17, which means that she is going to have to be painstakingly selective. I actually hadn't realized how restrictive the sorcerer class was in gaining spells known - but I guess the meta magic is a good enough trade-off. Re: Instruments - I had actually missed that little caveat. I just read over them and you are totally right. Though the disadvantage doesn't apply as a blanket to all bard spells, it only applies to spells that inflict the charmed condition. That, admittedly, is a large chunk of bard spells. I just hope there aren't that many things immune to charm or I'm going to be boned.

3: I was thinking sword and board with shield master, actually and had considered devotion. The only issue here is that in order to be stellar with that bonus action shove, you need the STR for athletics, not just a To-hit bonus. While I am a fan of the flavor (always have been) of the devotion paladin, the class-abilities (Aura of devotion is kind of meh, you already have a stellar will save by then, and you get perma-prot-evil/good way too late in the game to be relevant - I don't even know if the game will last that long.) and more specifically the bonus spells seem lackluster by comparison in my humble opinion. Perhaps they aren't, but I don't feel they would be fun for me. Also, shillelagh only works on wooden weapons, I'd be relegating myself to using a club or quarterstaff, when I see the character using a warhammer or longsword at any given time

4: Not too sure I like the flavor of a paladin/bard. I'd rather the character have a core competency than just be all over the place. Remember, I'm going for not being that-other-guy that can do everything you can do, only you can do it better because you didn't split your attention 3 ways. Also, a major gripe of mine would be feeling gimped half the time. We're starting at level 1. If I go half and half, to use your example of BA6/PA6, it'd take way too long to derive core benefits from either class, and I'd feel completely useless, not to mention impatient. I don't even know if this campaign is going to go the distance to level 20, let alone level 10. The GM hasn't said - I suppose it depends on everyone's energy levels. Anything more than a 1-2 level dip would feel excessive to me.

I'm really digging that knowledge cleric idea though - I'd be starting with a WIS of 14, most likely if I go half-elf (STR: 8, DEX: 13+1 = 14, CON: 12 +1 = 13 (+1 Resilient later), INT: 12, WIS: 14, CHA: 14+2 16, and AC of 10 + Scale 4 + Dex 2 + Shield 2 = 18.) Between Knowledge 1st level & Sage, I'd get all knowledge skills. Though, that expertise bonus that knowledge domain gives would be on Nature/Religion, and I kind of want it to be on Arcana/Religion.

[Naanomi]

Take Arcana and History as your knowledge cleric skill, background replicates skills you already have so choose the other two (and don't forget investigation!)

[bid]

I'm really digging that knowledge cleric idea though - I'd be starting with a WIS of 14, most likely if I go half-elf (STR: 8, DEX: 13+1 = 14, CON: 12 +1 = 13 (+1 Resilient later), INT: 12, WIS: 14, CHA: 14+2 16, and AC of 10 + Scale 4 + Dex 2 + Shield 2 = 18.)
I would reverse that, you can get Str9 Dex13+1 Con13+1 Int12 Wis13 Cha14+2. Then it's a toss up with Int10 / Wis14.

[Nelyo]

Oh snap. I just read it in the PHB - it totally allows you to take another skill in lieu of a skill the background grants. One of our GMs in the past, when it was vaguely worded, ruled that if you got something from two different sources, basically it sucks to be you, and you get shafted out of a bennie. But it's clearly worded in the PHB XD. Happy panda.


I would reverse that, you can get Str9 Dex13+1 Con13+1 Int12 Wis13 Cha14+2. Then it's a toss up with Int10 / Wis14.

Well, having a 10 INT doesn't fit the character - he's relatively intelligent, knows Common, Elven, and like +5 Languages thanks to his race/background/cleric domain (Speaking of - any thoughts on what languages might be most useful?). I even thought INT 12 was a bit low, but then I thought it would be stupid to have him start off as a cleric without at least a 13 in wisdom. I know you can, but it wouldn't feel right given the multiclass attribute restriction. That's like starting as a wizard with 10 INT, because you want Portent at level 2, and then having charisma 16, and becoming a sorcerer, bard or warlock or something.

Your stat array is odd to me though. The 9 STR and 13 WIS would require an ASI later on. Also, the character is starting as a cleric - Sacred Flame would have an even smaller chance than it already does with WIS 14 at being successful. That would be an awful start, unless I decided to be completely passive, using guidance/bless/cure to the exclusion of anything offensive. The 9 STR also wouldn't help early on. And the 14 CON would later get bumped up to 15 when I take resilient (CON), so that would require another ASI to bring it up to 16, and give a +1 to something else which would likely be useless because everything is already at an even number.

I appreciate the input, but I'm not seeing a way where I come out of this one winning :P.

[Naanomi]

I like the 9/14/14/12/13/16 spread... Shows why you were smart enough to start the life of a scholar; but not so bright you found it satisfying (and charming enough to keep distracting the hot librarians)

No ASI needed, both can stay where they are... 9 strength for a bit more carry weight, 13 Wis for multiclassing... Don't need more

Speaking of which: another background option if you want to stay in the graces of/maintain ties to your religious order: after your initial studies it was clear your temperament didn't fit the life of study and paperwork and they sent you off on 'field work' (I.E. Get you outta the temple so you quit causing problems)

[bid]

Also, the character is starting as a cleric - Sacred Flame would have an even smaller chance than it already does with WIS 14 at being successful.
Well if you wan to start Wis14, at the very least put your racial +1 there. If you want best Int, your half-elf base should be Str8 Dex13 Con13 Int13 Wis13 Cha14 before racials.

I understand the RP concept, but playing 8+ levels with only +1 to concentration and hp will be painful. If you start Con13, it's because you will resilient(Con) at lore 4. I would rather go inspiring leader and one shot of Cha+2 before going there, therefore I really wouldn't mind the odd bits, start Con14 / Int11 and Con+1/Int+1 if I ever reach level 19 and found nothing better (maybe not in that order).

BTW, you couldn't MC out of wizard with Int10. The MC prerequisites work both ways.

[Citan]

Thanks for the in-depth analysis!

3: I was thinking sword and board with shield master, actually and had considered devotion. The only issue here is that in order to be stellar with that bonus action shove, you need the STR for athletics, not just a To-hit bonus. While I am a fan of the flavor (always have been) of the devotion paladin, the class-abilities (Aura of devotion is kind of meh, you already have a stellar will save by then, and you get perma-prot-evil/good way too late in the game to be relevant - I don't even know if the game will last that long.) and more specifically the bonus spells seem lackluster by comparison in my humble opinion. Perhaps they aren't, but I don't feel they would be fun for me. Also, shillelagh only works on wooden weapons, I'd be relegating myself to using a club or quarterstaff, when I see the character using a warhammer or longsword at any given time

4: Not too sure I like the flavor of a paladin/bard. I'd rather the character have a core competency than just be all over the place. Remember, I'm going for not being that-other-guy that can do everything you can do, only you can do it better because you didn't split your attention 3 ways. Also, a major gripe of mine would be feeling gimped half the time. We're starting at level 1. If I go half and half, to use your example of BA6/PA6, it'd take way too long to derive core benefits from either class, and I'd feel completely useless, not to mention impatient. I don't even know if this campaign is going to go the distance to level 20, let alone level 10. The GM hasn't said - I suppose it depends on everyone's energy levels. Anything more than a 1-2 level dip would feel excessive to me.

I'm really digging that knowledge cleric idea though - I'd be starting with a WIS of 14, most likely if I go half-elf (STR: 8, DEX: 13+1 = 14, CON: 12 +1 = 13 (+1 Resilient later), INT: 12, WIS: 14, CHA: 14+2 16, and AC of 10 + Scale 4 + Dex 2 + Shield 2 = 18.) Between Knowledge 1st level & Sage, I'd get all knowledge skills. Though, that expertise bonus that knowledge domain gives would be on Nature/Religion, and I kind of want it to be on Arcana/Religion.

3. Sure, it's your character so up to you to decide. :)
Whatever you do anyways, since you seem set on taking Shield Master feat to grapple, may I suggest Expertise in Athletics for a Lore Bard? :) Still on that topic, AFAIK,
Also, you're right that the Devotion spells seem lesser than those of the other oath, mainly because they are all core spells, and most of them are a bit situational.
Not sure about the charm immunity being lackluster though. My gut agrees with you, but I wonder what opinion of more experienced 5e players would be on that particular topic. ;)

4. You're right, you would get good Bard spells much later. So then heavy multiclassing is not good for you, and that's it. ;)

On your suggestion build, something puzzles me. You just said above that a) you wanted to use Shield Master to shove and b) using martial weapons such as a warhammer or longsword.
First, how would you get proficiency in martial weapons? Lore Bard (except longsword) nor Knowledge Cleric provides it.
Second, considering these weapons and your will to shove, shouldn't you have a good STR instead of dumping it?

[bid]

Second, considering these weapons and your will to shove, shouldn't you have a good STR instead of dumping it?
Starting cleric, the only finesse weapon is dagger. Might as well start bard and dip cleric later.

Shove works the same way as grappling, expertise in athletics is enough that you can dump Str safely. I would say shield master and shove only works for valor and its extra attack.


Once again, I believe an organic RP growth is called for. Start as bard and when you reach level 3 choose which build you feel like taking: valor with shield master, or lore with knowldege. If your DM accepts the AL rule, you can retcon your stats to match your choice.

[Naanomi]

Dipping cleric doesn't get the armor proficiencies you want, it is important to start with cleric.

[bid]

Dipping cleric doesn't get the armor proficiencies you want, it is important to start with cleric.
Not really, you can make do with light armor until the cleric dip which adds medium armor / shield.

[Rysto]

Dipping cleric doesn't get the armor proficiencies you want, it is important to start with cleric.

Yes it does. Clerics are the one exception to the "dips don't get your heavy armour" pattern. The key is that they're a bonus proficiency granted by choosing a cleric domain, and not one granted by the class itself.

[Naanomi]

Yes it does. Clerics are the one exception to the "dips don't get your heavy armour" pattern. The key is that they're a bonus proficiency granted by choosing a cleric domain, and not one granted by the class itself.
You are correct, good catch! Still I'd start with cleric, one level of 'two less save DC on my attack than normal' is survivable, level one flys by fast and it is when you will appreciate the armor and shield most

[Nelyo]

I haven't quite figured out how to quote multiple things on the forums just yet, so bear with me XD

@Citan: I wasn't planning to use a warhammer/longsword in tandem with shieldmaster on the lore bard. Sorry if that was unclear u.u, I meant for that to be a part of the paladin build, not the bard. As Bid said, I'd have to be going for the valor college to get any real mileage out of it. I want the character in question to stay as far away from melee as possible. Though that bit about using expertise on athletics is interesting, I hadn't even considered that. Either way, the lore bard will probably be wielding some simple weapon (mostly for show, given an 8 STR) and a shield in the other hand. Or maybe he can rock the Captain America look, and only have a shield. Not sure :p. I just know I want the shield's bonus.

@Bid: Question though on the stat array. You'd said a 14 CON would be worth it from the get go, even if it would result in an odd stat of 15 later on with resilient. I agree with you about delaying resilient til later (there's more important stuff to get). Though, how much of a difference, really, is an extra +1 going to make? I'm going to be in the back-line behind the barbarian and the monk. Not only that, but I will effectively have an AC of 18. This is the same AC my paladin would have had with starting chain mail and shield. Not a lot is going to be hitting me for a while. And to exacerbate the poor would-be attacker's problems, I will also have vicious mockery and dissonant whispers at my disposal. I don't think concentration's going to really be a huge issue for me til later levels as my GM adapts to those shenanigans :p.

@Bid & Naanomi - yes, that exactly, on getting cleric first level. First level goes by fairly quickly, and the bump to AC will be extremely helpful. Also, another cheesy reason for me starting cleric, is because I feel the will save proficiency bonus would get more mileage than the dexterity save. And of course, Resilient - Con later on. I was also playing with the idea of inspiring leader, and wondering when to get it. Its presence would probably be most felt at early levels, but I don't know that CHA 18 would be a good thing to leave until level 8. I'll have to deliberate on that one.

[bid]

I haven't quite figured out how to quote multiple things on the forums just yet, so bear with me XD

Or maybe he can rock the Captain America look, and only have a shield.

Though, how much of a difference, really, is an extra +1 going to make?

Also, another cheesy reason for me starting cleric, is because I feel the will save proficiency bonus would get more mileage than the dexterity save.

I was also playing with the idea of inspiring leader, and wondering when to get it.
Right beside the "reply with quote there's a "+ button, not that there's anything wrong with separate replies.

You prolly want a dagger (finesse = use Dex) on your belt but still keep your hand free for casting. If you stay safe in the back row, you'll never need a weapon. Although the monk is not a good class to make a wall and will weave in and out of enemy range.

You are somewhat right about Con14. That's 10-15% extra health and 14% less failure on the DC 10 base concentration check. I feel your front line is porous enough that it will make a difference.

Wis save is a good reason, since you don't care about weapon proficiency at all.

The usual gambit for all classes is feat at level 4 and ASI at level 8. As long as you start with a 16, inspiring leader at level 5 is fine. 3 bardic inspirations per short rest is enough.


It's refreshing to see someone with novel constraints, keeping all mental stats high for RP reasons. Solving Con13 / Int13 / Wis13 may end up suboptimal but it shouldn't have an impact.