A pact with a Pit Fiend

[TheIceborn]

So I was DMibg an adventure with my friends. My storyline was pretty straightforward: through the adventure the playerd found out that the forces of nine hells of Baalor are gathering their forces to attack the world through a portal.
Now, the problem showed up when I forgot I have two evil characters in my group...instead of attempts to stop that invasion, they went through the portal and made a deal with a Pit Fiend that they will be his spies in exchange for immortality(homemade deal system).
Now, I really want to backfire them for doing so, just to teach them never to mess with the devils, but I honestly have no idea how because they already managed to sell the story to the rest of the group that they barely escaped with their lives(which is true because awizard fell into a fire pit) and that they
learned a lesson....do you guys have any advice on what should I do?

[TheIceborn]

P.S. DnD 3.5 edition

[Kelb_Panthera]

Assuming you mean immortality as in everlasting life, rather than inviolate life, a simple doublecross is the obvious solution. They made a pact to sell their souls and the pit-fiend can't collect his due until they're dead. The -moment- they've outlived their usefulness in the conquest effort, they get great big targets painted on them.

Spies are useless once their cover is blown. So find a way to reveal them to the party or to the heads of the resistance effort as spies, then come at them -hard- with devil assassins looking to collect their master's due.

[DeAnno]

They made a pact to sell their souls and the pit-fiend can't collect his due until they're dead.

It doesn't really seem like they did. They made a pact to sell information. Devils are Lawful Evil.

[TheIceborn]

No Kelb is right...freaking genius :D
Immortality, just set in the afterlife, can be interpreted as selling their souls :3
Amazing :D

[Kelb_Panthera]

It doesn't really seem like they did. They made a pact to sell information. Devils are Lawful Evil.

Information isn't worth immortality and if they weren't damned before then that sealed it and put that particular devil's mark on both of them. Whether they intended to sell their souls directly or not they defacto did exactly that.


No Kelb is right...freaking genius :D
Immortality, just set in the afterlife, can be interpreted as selling their souls :3
Amazing :D

I was thinking more, "Hey, I guaranteed you'd never die of old age. I never said you'd live forever :smallamused:"

[DarkSoul]

I was thinking more, "Hey, I guaranteed you'd never die of old age. I never said you'd live forever :smallamused:"That's a pretty standard interpretation of immortality in D&D. I'd go with that. Use the PCs until they're no longer useful, then have them killed and take their souls to hell.

[Gildedragon]

Have them still be able to age "Yes you will live forever but I'd didn't promise youth" (aging penalties still befall them); getting "killed" puts them out of commission for a few days until they regenerate (if you want to have them struggle then have rocks fall on them, let them figure out how to free themselves from boulders)
Or they get stasised between missions
Or they get ghosted/suel-lich-ed and need to possess bodies to live... Or some other type of hungry undead
The pact penalties ought be in service to your story: roleplay oriented and story propelling: have the missions set ages apart or in the outer planes, and don't worry too much about screwing players over (they'll do it themselves)

But regardless of it all: the fiend will keep to the letter of the pact, only going further if it benefits him. So it might be good to have the precise wording.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Nothing in the deal, as far as I can see, implies that the Devil won't just kill them once they've outlived their usefulness. Immortality is no protection from being killed, after all (or at least, not in D&D)

[the_david]

https://youtu.be/uvMiz0-nPxs

[denthor]

This was the plot of a Twilight Zone episode.

A man wanted immortality in the episode he did all kinds of things to try to get himself killed. Somewhere in there he wanted to jump out of the window of a large building his wife intervened and fell Instead.

He then goes on trial for the murder of his wife after confessing to you what happened he gets life in prison.

The end of the episode he begs the devil to end the contract and take his life.

If they ask for their life to end because it is so horrific and they see No Way Out the Devil wins.

Since your contract doesn't state That they have to have all their limbs in order to continue to live if they ever become non functional, for the wizard if he has a ring staff that allows him to cast any spell in a Spellbook cut off the offending hand that holds such an item. This is Lawful under D&D. This would cripple the wizard And possibly want him to get out of the contract.

I summon Red Fel to this thread to critique my suggestions

[Malroth]

An immortal, non outsider who is eternally bound to spy for you is a very very useful thing. Once the forces of hell have used them to enslave everybody they once loved it's time to move them over to another prime material plane where they can work sowing discontent in some slave mines for a few centuries before dumping them in the abyss to be horribly tortured by their blood war enemies to plant disinformation.

[ATHATH]

This was the plot of a Twilight Zone episode.

A man wanted immortality in the episode he did all kinds of things to try to get himself killed. Somewhere in there he wanted to jump out of the window of a large building his wife intervened and fell Instead.

He then goes on trial for the murder of his wife after confessing to you what happened he gets life in prison.

The end of the episode he begs the devil to end the contract and take his life.

If they ask for their life to end because it is so horrific and they see No Way Out the Devil wins.

Since your contract doesn't state That they have to have all their limbs in order to continue to live if they ever become non functional, for the wizard if he has a ring staff that allows him to cast any spell in a Spellbook cut off the offending hand that holds such an item. This is Lawful under D&D. This would cripple the wizard And possibly want him to get out of the contract.

I summon Red Fel to this thread to critique my suggestions
You summoned him (or at least attempted to) incorrectly AGAIN. I'll do it correctly for you this time, but the next... You'll be at Mr. Fel's mercy.

Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel.

[Daefos]

Since your contract doesn't state That they have to have all their limbs in order to continue to live if they ever become non functional, for the wizard if he has a ring staff that allows him to cast any spell in a Spellbook cut off the offending hand that holds such an item. This is Lawful under D&D. This would cripple the wizard And possibly want him to get out of the contract.
I think you severely overestimate how crippled this wizard is.

[Honest Tiefling]

Why would devils want to collect immediately? These people just sold out THE ENTIRE WORLD for their own petty greed. Yeah, I don't think those two are getting redeemed anytime soon. I think helping condemn several thousand people to eternal damnation isn't something you can just use the atone spell for, even if your part was relatively minor.

But you know what would be great? If more mortals fell in love with the idea of serving the devils, as is their rightful place. The twist is, did the devil ever say their contract was over? Or can it be twisted that they have to provide more and more information for the devil to retain their immortality? They could be twisted into becoming spies for the devil, helping the fiends along in their quest to reform the mortal world.

Problem is, that's probably going to suck for the party. Devils come and rough them up for their gold. They can't get a break at inns. Magical healing? Only if they praise their true masters and cast down all pretenders. They can't get magical items, because the devils are taking them all. Their hometown is constantly on fire. Maybe helping a race of powerful fiends that view you as essentially property surrounded by a squishy shell wasn't such a great idea after all.

Eventually the party is going to figure it out. They can try to reverse the damage they've done, or get chased out. If they've shown potential, they can be recruited in the crusade against chaos. (Essentially becoming NPCs.) Or they can try to fix this mess BEFORE they die and start the long, arduous process of being a Lemure...In oh, say, a few centuries.

[icefractal]

I have to say, "kill them and claim it technically still counts as immortality" seems a bit unimaginative. And if that was the end result you wanted, why not just have the Pit Fiend char-broil them when they first met? It's not like devils have to make deals with anyone who asks.

Since presumably the Pit Fiend in question felt that they were useful enough as spies to make a deal with, why wouldn't it just keep exploiting them that way? Probably upping the ante bit by bit - Just watch them and report what happens ... this time, leave a note saying X ... this time, leave this particular note and don't read it ... this time, deliver this poisoned apple ... this time, kill the messenger before he gets there.

By the time their info stops being relevant, it can just switch over to using them as assassins. They'll end up in the nine hells when they die anyway (even with immortality, nothing lasts forever); why throw away two mortal agents to speed up an inevitable process?

[Gildedragon]

alternative: retire those characters; they get NPCed into recurring villains
simply put: their bodies become immortal but their minds are taken over by some small fiends. give them the half fiend template or (if human) boost them as if they were Inspired (ECS 290), or just treat them as possessed creatures; their minds are still in there, but the fiend's taken over for good.

that way the fight against the fiends can continue, but now there's agents of evil that are wearing their friends' bodies... and 2 new characters whose homes were destroyed by these two corrupters.

[Inevitability]

Devils are known for torturing fallen souls (for fun, information, and spell components). A person who can't die can endure most torture indefinitely, even if he still suffers from it. The pit fiend might very well just be creating a future liquid pain-factory.

[HolyDraconus]

You summoned him (or at least attempted to) incorrectly AGAIN. I'll do it correctly for you this time, but the next... You'll be at Mr. Fel's mercy.

Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel.

There's layers to evil you know. Sometimes the best kinds are done by willing idiots.

[Conradine]

If we give credit to Fiendish Codex informations, it's not extremely complicated to make a good deal with a devil.

It's enough to clearly write in the contract that if the devil [ or one of his associates, or a mercenary paid by the devil or by one of his associates ( paid with every kind of benefit, be it money, power, gifts or anything else ), or a person manipulated / coerced / deceived by the devil ] causes directly or indirectly any kind of harm to the character, he ( or his superiors ) will not be able to collect the character soul.

To make the deal better for both devil and character, character's soul should never be offered. Devils appreciate many other things: gold, services, magic items, and obviously the drug Liquid Pain ( in description is said it's "very valued by externals" ). It's also possible to offer other people's soul ( by Soul Bind or an evil magic altar item I forgot the name ) or living sacrifices to the devil's master. This way the character's soul do not become property of that specific devil after death.

Being Neutral Evil instead of Lawful Evil would help, also. The character would not end in Baator at all, so the devils would have no advantage in killing him.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If we give credit to Fiendish Codex informations, it's not extremely complicated to make a good deal with a devil.

In theory, perhaps, but in practice your soul is -the- prize he wants. Whatever else you might offer, simply the act of knowingly cutting a deal with a devil is a lawful and evil act. You're moving toward where it wants you just by talking your way out of being splattered all over the walls. It may or may not ask for your soul directly but your damnation -is- its goal.


It's enough to clearly write in the contract that if the devil [ or one of his associates, or a mercenary paid by the devil or by one of his associates ( paid with every kind of benefit, be it money, power, gifts or anything else ), or a person manipulated / coerced / deceived by the devil ] causes directly or indirectly any kind of harm to the character, he ( or his superiors ) will not be able to collect the character soul.

You ever see Bedazzled, with Brenden Fraser and Elizabeth Hurly? The contract that fell in Fraser's lap when the devil (Hurly) asked him to sign, a tome that looks like a unabridged dictionary, is a -standard- contract for the Baatezu. A DM would be well within the bounds of reasonable call to give you a wisdom or intelligence or perhaps even a decipher script check to determine if there are any loopholes in the contract that the devil can (will) exploit. Even then, simply making a passing mention of the fact you made a deal with some goofy berk the other day to a rival in the organization is a fun work-around. Now he just needs to get as much use out of you as he can before his rival arranges your death to keep you from being of further use to him.

In -every- case, you'd still end up in baator and have to make an appeal, per FC2, and -if- you can convince the judge that you were cheated you -may- be resorted to your proper after-life destination. Dealing with devils is very bad business for anyone who's not another devil or some shade of immortal.


To make the deal better for both devil and character, character's soul should never be offered. Devils appreciate many other things: gold, services, magic items, and obviously the drug Liquid Pain ( in description is said it's "very valued by externals" ). It's also possible to offer other people's soul ( by Soul Bind or an evil magic altar item I forgot the name ) or living sacrifices to the devil's master. This way the character's soul do not become property of that specific devil after death.

Those things are valued because they have value in the damning of souls. Outsiders need not eat, sleep, or drink and they barely need to breath. Devils get their entertainment from torturing mortal souls into becoming lemures. There is -no- commodity more highly valued than souls in Baator. You -may- be able to offer up enough scratch to outweigh your own soul but don't count on getting a fair deal in that and don't think for a moment that the devil won't try to angle to get your soul damned in the process somewhere along the way too.


Being Neutral Evil instead of Lawful Evil would help, also. The character would not end in Baator at all, so the devils would have no advantage in killing him.

Metagaming aside (most mortals have no idea what their aligment is), faustian pacts are engineered to cause and maintain damnation, else the prize offered is forfeit. Staying NE without violating the contract is a hell of a feat (forgive the pun.)


Not that any of this matters to the OP. The deal is already struck and it likely took -none- of the above (from either of us) into consideration. Their souls are almost certainly already forfeit and their death inbound.

[Gildedragon]

To make the deal better for both devil and character, character's soul should never be offered. Devils appreciate many other things: gold, services, magic items, and obviously the drug Liquid Pain ( in description is said it's "very valued by externals" ). It's also possible to offer other people's soul ( by Soul Bind or an evil magic altar item I forgot the name ) or living sacrifices to the devil's master. This way the character's soul do not become property of that specific devil after death.

Being Neutral Evil instead of Lawful Evil would help, also. The character would not end in Baator at all, so the devils would have no advantage in killing him.

Souls are a bit more prized by outsiders though... a fair bit so. Also making a fiendish pact ought push one to LE. Maybe the soul isn't explicitly damned, but the deal itself ipso facto damns one to hell... or it should.

Now living agents are a lot more useful than souls in the abstract. And since they asked for immortality, well that makes them handier.

My immediate plan of action would be to NPC them, but assuming one doesn't want to do that:

The deal is signed with a fiendish graft. It functions a lot like a Tooth of Dhalver Nar for a custom vestige: it grants an ability and it puts one under the influence of a being, and more importantly: it can be removed.

The Item: a (near) indestructible tooth or eye

The Ability: gain temporary hit points equal to max HP+10 (regain them at 1/round or 1/hour), Rejuvenation (1d6 days, they reform around the tooth). No longer affected by aging penalties.

The Obvious Cost: Loss of a tooth or eye. Fiend can always see through them as if through Greater Prying Eyes, and cancommunicate with them as if the dream spell (or the sending spell if they don't sleep) at will. They can be rebuked or turned as evil outsiders (but not destroyed). They have a strong aura of evil. They no longer benefit from [healing] spells, nor healing effects; nor have natural healing of HP.

The Hidden Cost: When they reform, they are at -10 HP + the maximum of temporary HP granted by the device (so they seem to be at full HP). They can renege on the contract whenever they wish (by removing the eye or tooth), doing so, however, will take away the temp HP they have, which... well... is the only thing keeping them alive. And by the time they grow sick of the pact they probably have committed so much evil they are damned.

[Conradine]

In theory, perhaps, but in practice your soul is -the- prize he wants. Whatever else you might offer, simply the act of knowingly cutting a deal with a devil is a lawful and evil act.


A way to balance would be to make a deal with demons for every deal you make with devils. For every soul in receptacle / vial of liquid pain / sentient sacrifice offered to the minions of Asmodeus / Mammon / Belzebub / Dispater ecc. you offer one to the servants of Demogorgon / Graa'tz / Orcus ecc.

So you stay Neutral Evil as a yugoloth.



It may or may not ask for your soul directly but your damnation -is- its goal.

Its goal is to get promoted by providing resources to his master. A soul in a receptacle is worth 10 xp of Dark Craft. If you offer to the devil several doses of Liquid Pain, several well- made sacrifices or two souls-in-receptacle, you already advanced his promotion more than your personal damnation would.



Metagaming aside (most mortals have no idea what their aligment is), faustian pacts are engineered to cause and maintain damnation, else the prize offered is forfeit. Staying NE without violating the contract is a hell of a feat (forgive the pun.)

Well, yes, a true faustian pact ( Pact Certain or Pact Insidious ) would require to stay Lawful Evil.
I guess a simple translation would not require that ( I give you souls / liquid pain / sacrifices, you give me gold / services / dark magic ecc. ).



Those things are valued because they have value in the damning of souls. Outsiders need not eat, sleep, or drink and they barely need to breath. Devils get their entertainment from torturing mortal souls into becoming lemures. There is -no- commodity more highly valued than souls in Baator.

The Book of Evil Darkness states that evil externals consume and enjoy liquid pain, which is quite logic if we consider that the Seven celestial lords subsist on Liquid Joy.
Beside that, gold , Liquid Pain and magical items can be used to support Baator's armies in the Bloody War. Devils need no food or water, ok, but they still money both to support their net of followers on the material plan and to create good weapons and golems in order to keep the armies of Abyss at bay.

[Conradine]

Even then, simply making a passing mention of the fact you made a deal with some goofy berk the other day to a rival in the organization is a fun work-around.

That would count as "damage directly or indirectly done by someone manipulated / deceived by the devil or it's associates".



The contract that fell in Fraser's lap when the devil (Hurly) asked him to sign, a tome that looks like a unabridged dictionary, is a -standard- contract for the Baatezu. A DM would be well within the bounds of reasonable call to give you a wisdom or intelligence or perhaps even a decipher script check to determine if there are any loopholes in the contract that the devil can (will) exploit.


The simplest counter would be "I write the contract, you sign it. Take it or leave it".

Obviously, that would be possible only if the character has something that the devil truly values, needs or desires.
A less harsh option would be " we can discuss the details, but I write the contract". And writing in in an Anti-Magic field, just to be sure no invisible tricks are made to modify it.



These are the kind of things that only a Cleric with Knowledge domain or an highly intelligent Wizard would do.

[ATHATH]

@Kelb: Ooh, that's a really well thought out contract idea. Can't the Wizard just use a scroll of Pact of Return to survive the tooth/eye's extraction, though?

[Kantaki]

What exactly does the deal say?

Because there are many forms of immortality.
Being forever remembered as the ones who betrayed the mortal realms to the forces of hell and were rewarded as they deserve for example.

After all, if your story is carried on through the ages, if your (mis)deeds are remembered forever, isn't that true immortality?:smallamused:

I mean seriously, what kind of devil worth their salt doesn't have this kind of spin ready before their mark is even born?

[Red Fel]

You summoned him (or at least attempted to) incorrectly AGAIN. I'll do it correctly for you this time, but the next... You'll be at Mr. Fel's mercy.

Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel.

Yo.


So I was DMibg an adventure with my friends. My storyline was pretty straightforward: through the adventure the playerd found out that the forces of nine hells of Baalor are gathering their forces to attack the world through a portal.
Now, the problem showed up when I forgot I have two evil characters in my group...instead of attempts to stop that invasion, they went through the portal and made a deal with a Pit Fiend that they will be his spies in exchange for immortality(homemade deal system).
Now, I really want to backfire them for doing so, just to teach them never to mess with the devils, but I honestly have no idea how because they already managed to sell the story to the rest of the group that they barely escaped with their lives(which is true because awizard fell into a fire pit) and that they
learned a lesson....do you guys have any advice on what should I do?

Well, first off, there are many, many ways to pervert a generic "immortality" request. Were they specific?

I'll point you to the classic sci-fi horror story, the aptly-titled "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream (http://hermiene.net/short-stories/i_have_no_mouth.html)." The basic premise: Sometimes, something gives you immortality so that it can guarantee your eternal suffering. (Warning: This story is extremely dark, graphic, and disturbing. Not suitable for some audiences.)

Here's the problem. That's fine for an epilogue - showing how the deal backfired. But that's epilogue; it's not really helpful to the story now. What if you want payoff now? Answer: Don't grant the deal.

It's simple. If these guys are Evil, they're already destined for the Lower Planes. Particularly if they're Lawful Evil, a powerful Devil has no real incentive to make a deal with them - they're no thread to the Hells' plans, and they're bound for that plane anyway.

Don't confuse Devils, who are prone to making Pacts, for creatures with an irrational compulsion to make Pacts - they can and do turn them down. Particularly when the Devils have no incentive, and see no gain from the bargain.

Here's what I understand of your scenario. The Hells are invading, and these Evil PCs are dumb enough to go in early on and offer to do recon. That's adorable. Do these fools think that the Hells haven't already done recon? Do they think that the Hells are commencing an invasion if they're not already prepared on both sides of the portal? Hell isn't some comic book villain.

http://www.mtv.com/news/wp-content/uploads/geek/2012/03/ozymandias.jpg

Sadly, it seems you've already given them their Pact. Poor planning on your part. Now you have two options. Give them their "reward" now, effectively killing their characters, or wait until the epilogue, in which case they're going to basically be acting against the party until the campaign ends.

That's not to say the second option lacks merit. If you're prepared for in-fighting and hurt feelings, if your players are mature enough, this could be powerful, particularly when these PCs realize at the last minute how badly they've been had, how much they've sacrificed for nothing. But for them to receive their just desserts, the campaign needs a downer ending - Good needs to lose, otherwise Hell owes them nothing. So keep that in mind.

But yes. Immortality is easy to turn into a punishment. You've got the Pirates of the Caribbean immortality, where your visage is frightful to look upon and physical pleasures give you no joy; you've got the Prometheus immortality, where you live forever but are disemboweled every day; you've got the statuary immortality, where you are an inanimate or otherwise locked-in being, capable of observing the world but not interacting. You could even go for more "creative" options - heck, Doctor Who gave us a particularly nasty quartet of them (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4xm9NHNUf8).

If all they asked for was immortality, there's a lot of nasty you can do with that.

[Gildedragon]

@Kelb: Ooh, that's a really well thought out contract idea. Can't the Wizard just use a scroll of Pact of Return to survive the tooth/eye's extraction, though?

Kelb? -huff-

And yes, the pact is survivable: it is meant to keep the PCs PCs; as I said, my personal impulse at something like what these PCs did is to NPC them (poorly worded contract, quislinging humanity... the mortal mind is no longer in the driver's seat) but the OP seems to want them to remain PCs.

But if they are to remain PCs there has to be the possibility of redemption (players change their minds on their alignment after all) and redemption has to come from contrition and an effort to make amends, both of which are hard to accomplish while benefiting from the contract (as they remain tools for their fiendish master), and IMPOSSIBLE if already receiving their eternal punishment.

Note that the PCs don't know that they aren't regenerating HP (they are always at fullish health from their point of view), so it would require them to be canny and well prepared against fiendish trickery to survive going back on the contract.

[Kelb_Panthera]

A way to balance would be to make a deal with demons for every deal you make with devils. For every soul in receptacle / vial of liquid pain / sentient sacrifice offered to the minions of Asmodeus / Mammon / Belzebub / Dispater ecc. you offer one to the servants of Demogorgon / Graa'tz / Orcus ecc.

So you stay Neutral Evil as a yugoloth.

Cutting deals with demons is -way- dumber than cutting deals with devils. For one, they don't have the hierarchic structure to give you anything outside their own, personal, power unless you're going to one of the demon princes or their agents. Even then, the structure is much weaker; more of a mutually beneficial tribalism than a proper chain of command. When you then consider that there's -nothing- holding a demon to its word, it becomes -really- obcvious that cutting such deals is quite foolish. He's as likely to try to eat you as to hold up his end.

And there's that nagging little details of the fact that making a deal with a demon is just making a deal with a demon. Making a deal with a devil is making a deal with the entire organization and making any deal at all is a more lawful act than a chaotic one. These two actions are not equivalent.





Its goal is to get promoted by providing resources to his master. A soul in a receptacle is worth 10 xp of Dark Craft. If you offer to the devil several doses of Liquid Pain, several well- made sacrifices or two souls-in-receptacle, you already advanced his promotion more than your personal damnation would.

The ultimate goal of his master, of all of the masters up to Asmodeus himself, is to damn as many souls as possible to ensure they have enough troops for their divinely mandated war against the infinite hordes of demons and to empower themselves to perform dark miracles. Any other goals are secondary to this, period.



Well, yes, a true faustian pact ( Pact Certain or Pact Insidious ) would require to stay Lawful Evil.
I guess a simple translation would not require that ( I give you souls / liquid pain / sacrifices, you give me gold / services / dark magic ecc. ).

Immortality is not a simple deal, it's a dark miracle. Even so, it doesn't change the fact that knowingly dealing with devils is both lawful and evil in a way that dealing with a demon just isn't.



The Book of Evil Darkness states that evil externals consume and enjoy liquid pain, which is quite logic if we consider that the Seven celestial lords subsist on Liquid Joy.

Homegrown is always cheaper and there are plenty of petitioners in hell to extract agony from. Don't expect to get full price.


Beside that, gold , Liquid Pain and magical items can be used to support Baator's armies in the Bloody War. Devils need no food or water, ok, but they still money both to support their net of followers on the material plan and to create good weapons and golems in order to keep the armies of Abyss at bay.

Their organization is more than extensive enough to gather the resources gold would be used to pay for (baatorian green steel anyone?) and what did you think they were doing with the energy extracted from those souls if not producing magic items and dark miracles? Gold is only useable to bribe mortals into selling their souls.

These things aren't worthless to the Baatezu but they're -much- devalued compared to what mortals think of them while collecting as many souls as possible is the ultimate goal of the organization itself (a slight twisting of the intention of their creators).

[Conradine]

And there's that nagging little details of the fact that making a deal with a demon is just making a deal with a demon. Making a deal with a devil is making a deal with the entire organization and making any deal at all is a more lawful act than a chaotic one. These two actions are not equivalent.


Well, that's true. Making a formal deal with a contract is a lawful action.
I was thinking about informal translations, "I give you one thing, you give me another", without formal agreements. Of course, it would require to be strong enough to defend yourself from an attack.



The ultimate goal of his master, of all of the masters up to Asmodeus himself, is to damn as many souls as possible to ensure they have enough troops for their divinely mandated war against the infinite hordes of demons and to empower themselves to perform dark miracles. Any other goals are secondary to this, period.

That is not correct.
The ultimate goal of every single devil is to advance himself, through Promotion. Every devil, from the lowest imp to Mephistophele Lord of the Eight, is to grow powerful enough take the place of his master. They also want to win over demons and also over celestials, but personal ambition comes first.

To make a quite extreme example, Levistus would happily betray the batoorians for the demons if given the chance, since he knows he will never be able to gain power in hell. ( source: Fiendish Codex )



Immortality is not a simple deal, it's a dark miracle. Even so, it doesn't change the fact that knowingly dealing with devils is both lawful and evil in a way that dealing with a demon just isn't.

TRUE immortality ( being impossible to kill ) is a dark miracle, I agree.
But I disagree that dealing with devils must automatically be a lawful act. If done formally, yes. But it can also be a cautious exchange of goods, like selling stolen jewels at the black market.



Homegrown is always cheaper and there are plenty of petitioners in hell to extract agony from. Don't expect to get full price.


I've checked the Liquid Pain spell description on the Vile Darkness pdf ( page 98 ). It says "target: one living creature".

Actually, petitioners are the incarnated souls of the dead, they're not living by any means. I don't think that externals ( execpt material plane native externals life Tieflings ) qualify for the "living creature" definition. There is even a prestige class ( Mortal Hunter, page 64 of the Vile Darkness ) that specify the difference between mortals and externals.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That would count as "damage directly or indirectly done by someone manipulated / deceived by the devil or it's associates".

"Prove it." :belkar:

"Damage," "direct," "indirect," "manipulaltion," "deception," and "associates" would all be defined in the contract, probably in different places, and where, exactly, is the deception or manipulation? He certainly didn't lie, even by ommision, and simply stating a fact as a form of manipulation is one *hell* of a stretch.



The simplest counter would be "I write the contract, you sign it. Take it or leave it".

Two problems:

First; nothing short of your soul even has a shot of getting "take it" on that offer. Souls in receptacles are seriously devalued since you can only extract a fraction of the power of that soul by consuming it and all other resource offers are too trivial to warrant any consideration unless we're talking artifacts. Artifacts can be stolen but souls can't (at least not without drastic depreciation).

Second; the standard practice in contract law is that any ambiguity in the contract favors the signatory over the contract drafter. Devils are utter masters of word-smithing and twisted meaning. Even if you -did- somehow get the fiend to take such a deal, you'll probably end up getting a -way- worse deal than if you'd signed his. Beating a foe at his own game when he's been playing for eons longer than you've been alive or will live is a losing proposition if I ever heard one.


Obviously, that would be possible only if the character has something that the devil truly values, needs or desires.
A less harsh option would be " we can discuss the details, but I write the contract". And writing in in an Anti-Magic field, just to be sure no invisible tricks are made to modify it.

I'm sorry if this comes off rude but that's just laughable. Cutting magic out of the negotiation process leaves you -far- less secure in the deal than if you used it to best effect. It also leaves you physically vulnerable if the fiend says, "screw it," and tries to just murder you because it's become clear you won't play ball.


These are the kind of things that only a Cleric with Knowledge domain or an highly intelligent Wizard would do.

Hardly. Devils value such souls higher than common rabble or even many high-class warriors but every soul in the pit is one more lemure for the blood war. They will offer deals to -anyone- that will sign on the dotted line, usually in the disguise of some not-devil. Just knowing that it -is- a devil puts you a leg-up compared to most of the dumb berks they damn.

Taking over societies is also a viable method for damning souls but it's more efficient to do so through infiltration and assimilation than overt conquest. Shifting the entire society to LE will produce a preponderance of damned souls without any deals made. You can offer up doing this for them or to help them do this but devils are greedy. They're going to try to get yours too and they probably will if you hold up your end.

[Gildedragon]

Actually, petitioners are the incarnated souls of the dead, they're not living by any means. I don't think that externals ( execpt material plane native externals life Tieflings ) qualify for the "living creature" definition. There is even a prestige class ( Mortal Hunter, page 64 of the Vile Darkness ) that specify the difference between mortals and externals.
It's outsiders, not externals.
They are living creatures: Con score = living; and even if it didn't Vow of Peace doesn't count them in their list of "non-living creatures" which you can harm without losing the benefit of the feat.
Note that Mortal Hunter doesn't a) define living creature, it defines "Mortal" and b) defines it only for the purposes of the class.

For purposes of this prestige class, “mortal” is a term meaning any creature not of the outsider, undead, construct, or fey types
It doesn't even cover elementals...

[Conradine]

These are the kind of things that only a Cleric with Knowledge domain or an highly intelligent Wizard would do.

I meant that evoking a devil, think about an anti magic field ecc. are options that assumes the dealer is an expert of magic and the planes.




"Damage," "direct," "indirect," "manipulaltion," "deception," and "associates" would all be defined in the contract, probably in different places, and where, exactly, is the deception or manipulation? He certainly didn't lie, even by ommision, and simply stating a fact as a form of manipulation is one *hell* of a stretch.

Since there is a plea tribunal in hell ( Fiendish Codex ), showing an high enough Knowledge - law skill and putting on the contract a contractual clausa that forbid the devil's master from getting the soul if the contract rules are broken, EVEN if the soul end up in Baator, should make the devil think twice before trying is luck.
After all, if the plea is won, sure, a lawful evil character still ends up in hell ( much diabolicar laughter ensues ) but the clause would forbid the devil's master to claim that soul and it can - even worse - be claimed by the archdevil's rivals. In the end, a Belzebub's devil that causes a soul to be get by Mephistopheles would be punished quite harshly.



I'm sorry if this comes off rude but that's just laughable. Cutting magic out of the negotiation process leaves you -far- less secure in the deal than if you used it to best effect. It also leaves you physically vulnerable if the fiend says, "screw it," and tries to just murder you because it's become clear you won't play ball.

Actually, an evoked creature cannot enter an anti-magic field. The outsider would just disappear. The anti-magic field would allow the mortal to write and sign the contract knowing that the paper isn't being magically alterated. I was assuming the devil is evoked and the bargaining is not happening on Baator.



First; nothing short of your soul even has a shot of getting "take it" on that offer. Souls in receptacles are seriously devalued since you can only extract a fraction of the power of that soul by consuming it

Source?

[Gildedragon]

I meant that evoking a devil, think about an anti magic field ecc. are options that assumes the dealer is an expert of magic and the planes...Actually, an evoked creature cannot enter an anti-magic field. The outsider would just disappear. The anti-magic field would allow the mortal to write and sign the contract knowing that the paper isn't being magically alterated. I was assuming the devil is evoked and the bargaining is not happening on Baator.



There's no such thing as an Evoked creature: one can Summon or Call a creature (both Conjurations, not Evocations). Summoned creatures do wink out when entering an AMF, but not Called ones. Either way if the conjured creature has SR, if an antimagic field is put on them, the AMF has to beat the SR to make them vanish.
If it is a summoned fiend, they probably wouldn't accept a deal where it is asked to enter an AMF; sees it as bargaining in bad faith. A called fiend doesn't care, and if the contract is magically treated, then it will resume its magic as soon as it is taken out of the field.


Since there is a plea tribunal in hell ( Fiendish Codex ), showing an high enough Knowledge - law skill and putting on the contract a contractual clausa that forbid the devil's master from getting the soul if the contract rules are broken, EVEN if the soul end up in Baator, should make the devil think twice before trying is luck.
After all, if the plea is won, sure, a lawful evil character still ends up in hell ( much diabolicar laughter ensues ) but the clause would forbid the devil's master to claim that soul and it can - even worse - be claimed by the archdevil's rivals. In the end, a Belzebub's devil that causes a soul to be get by Mephistopheles would be punished quite harshly.
a fiend that loses a trial is probably punished regardless... though their counsel probably has max ranks in the skills needed for the court; whereas the legally appointed public defender has... well 1 rank, maybe. Though without the diabolic protection, a stray mortal soul stands a snowball's chance in hell of not getting eaten right away, or conscripted into the blood war the moment the case is ruled in their favor (but are condemned to Baator on separate grounds).
Remember that the trial is to dispute one's damnation to Baator: win the trial and the damnation instigated by agreeing to the pact is rescinded.

[Conradine]

Beating a foe at his own game when he's been playing for eons longer than you've been alive or will live is a losing proposition if I ever heard one.

If you bargain with a Pit Fiend ( 18 DV - 21 max points in a skill, Int 26 ), I agree , it's really hard. But there are lesser devils.

Anyway, since the OP is about true immortality, I guess that any character trying to do such a deal should be at least level 15 or more.




There's no such thing as an Evoked creature: one can Summon or Call a creature (both Conjurations, not Evocations).

Sorry. English is not my native language. In italian, Summon translates "Evocare" so I italianized the word and wrote Evoked.

Sorry again.:smallbiggrin:



If it is a summoned fiend, they probably wouldn't accept a deal where it is asked to enter an AMF; sees it as bargaining in bad faith. A called fiend doesn't care, and if the contract is magically treated, then it will resume its magic as soon as it is taken out of the field.


The idea was "I wrote the contract here in front of you ( and you - devil - stays outside the antimagic field ), with you watching me writing every word, so we both know neither you or me used magic ink or other tricks and the contract is only what you saw me write on it. Then we sign it - you using a long pen from outside the antimagic field - and then no successive changes to the contract would make any difference".

[Gildedragon]

Sorry. English is not my native language. In italian, Summon translates "Evocare" so I italianized the word and wrote Evoked.

Sorry again.:smallbiggrin:

No prob. But the use of the school name makes it a bit... odd.
Question, though, what is the school of Evocation called if "Evocare" is used for the Summoning subschool?

[Conradine]

Summoning is "Evocazione" and Evocation is "Invocazione".

[Jack_Simth]

Remember that the trial is to dispute one's damnation to Baator: win the trial and the damnation instigated by agreeing to the pact is rescinded.Mind you: It's ONLY the pact's effects that are rescinded. As it says in Fiendish Codex II, page 25: "It is also possible for a defendant to win her case on merit, only to suffer condemnation to the Nine Hells on unrelated grounds if her corruption score or obeseisance score (see page 30) equals or exceeds 9"

So... yeah, the PC's in this scenario are pretty likely doomed. With the "Afterlife is immortality" spin, the evil PC's basically just told the devil that they'd give him info and themselves. The devil in question need merely wait. May or may not speed things up.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I meant that evoking a devil, think about an anti magic field ecc. are options that assumes the dealer is an expert of magic and the planes.

That's a bold assumption. Most people that devils deal with are not amongst that crowd and most of that crowd know better than to deal with devils beyond summoning them or binding them for particular tasks to which their powers and attitudes are specifically suited. It's much easier and much safer that way. It takes a certain amount of hubris to think you can outdeal an immortal, cosmic contract lawyer.



Since there is a plea tribunal in hell ( Fiendish Codex ), showing an high enough Knowledge - law skill and putting on the contract a contractual clausa that forbid the devil's master from getting the soul if the contract rules are broken, EVEN if the soul end up in Baator, should make the devil think twice before trying is luck.
After all, if the plea is won, sure, a lawful evil character still ends up in hell ( much diabolicar laughter ensues ) but the clause would forbid the devil's master to claim that soul and it can - even worse - be claimed by the archdevil's rivals. In the end, a Belzebub's devil that causes a soul to be get by Mephistopheles would be punished quite harshly.

You're definitely not getting anything at all for less than your soul with a clause like that and yours had better be a soul worth the wait. Expect a counter-clause forbidding becoming undead at the very least. There's also the issue of devils that want to jump ship to another infernal organization -after- your soul is collected sending you ahead as a tribute by deiberately manipulating that clause.



Actually, an evoked creature cannot enter an anti-magic field. The outsider would just disappear. The anti-magic field would allow the mortal to write and sign the contract knowing that the paper isn't being magically alterated. I was assuming the devil is evoked and the bargaining is not happening on Baator.

You're not getting a deal out of a summoned devil. There's nowhere near enough time for a contract to be properly negotiated, reviewed, and signed and I can't imagine the masters of such devils would approve of any contract so hastily struck.



Source?

It's simple.

FC2 says that higher level souls can simply get -more- reward for their souls, per the XP rewards table on page 24. While wealth and position can get you more still, at the basic level you're simply worth a greater expenditure of infernal power if you're of a higher level.

So the question then becomes; -why- are higher level souls worth more? When souls are processed (read; tortured to a mewling mass and eventually turned into a lemure) the divine energy that the gods imparted on mortals is extracted so that the gods that signed the pact primeval wouldn't need to funnel power to these beings directly. This being the case, it must be true that higher level characters have -more- of this divine spark to extract. Since the gods created mortals to produce such energies much, much faster than outsiders can to fuel all the machinations of the outer planes and class is not considered, the only thing that -could- represent this divine spark is the character's XP.

The processing done in hell is simply a method of extracting that power much faster than the natural processes by which mortal souls gradually break down to feed the planes themselves and the gods that created them.

A 5th level character who's signed a pact insidious for a 7 point reward had 1800 points worth of power poured into him. If all they can get back is the 10 that a soul trapped in a gem is worth, that'd be a really poor investment. If, on the other hand, they can get that 1800 back plus another 10,000 and change, why woulnd't they make such a deal? It's an obvious win.

The catch is that even a pact certain can be broken, so if the soul isn't furthering the infernal agenda in its body on the prime then it's time to pay the piper. A deal that would forbid the devil from collecting his due while it toddles along working against its own damnation is a deal that endangers the investment. That's a problem to be avoided.

[LTwerewolf]

You can get way more creative than "kill them." Have them gradually turn into lemures once their usefulness has faded. They're functionally immortal as lemures, under the pit fiend's command, and added to the legions of the hells. Once they're lemures they can't even think enough to be upset about it.

[archon1212]

I think there is a slight difference between devils, and the institution of hell. the institution of hell is there to damn souls, and to punish them once damned. The devils are created to aid this goal, but do not necessarily take actions with maximum utility towards this goal - they mostly seek their own promotion, or to obtain power, or to complete tasks given to them by their masters, or to win the blood war. They don't care if the institution of hell fails, if they achieve their personal goals.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think there is a slight difference between devils, and the institution of hell. the institution of hell is there to damn souls, and to punish them once damned. The devils are created to aid this goal, but do not necessarily take actions with maximum utility towards this goal - they mostly seek their own promotion, or to obtain power, or to complete tasks given to them by their masters, or to win the blood war. They don't care if the institution of hell fails, if they achieve their personal goals.

There is precious little difference. Devils are creatures of law incarnate, while each of them certainly value their individual goals more than any other devils' it is also part of their nature to hold the goals of the organization at least equal to, if not above their own. They know, with every fiber of their being, that they are nothing without the organization, even if they do think that -they- should be at its head, rather than the current archdukes.

That said, their loyalties are divided, by design no less, between the organization as a whole and their own division of the same and then further within their own command vs the division as a whole. Asmodeus deliberately setup the nine hells as a competitive system to draw the most efficient and effective use of power toward the organization's, his, ultimate goals by ensuring only the best could succeed and advance.

They're also utterly beholden to the system in any case, since failure is rewarded with demotion; being a useless git of a devil to the organization will ultimately end with being turned into a mane and used for battle fodder in the blood war. Any individual can, of course, flee from this fate and sever his ties with Baator but to do so is something extreme beyond imagining to most devils since it leaves him with no means to seek promotion and an extremely limited road to power compared to what he's giving up.

Basically, the separation you're talking about is largely an academic rather than a practical one.

[TheIceborn]

We've had another session, and the PCs signed the deal. They just read it quickly, not even thinking about concequences or holes in it.
Basically the PCs cannot die of old ageif they destroy the portal to the upper realms, located somewhere on the material plane(homemade world).
My players DID made sure that their obligance to the devil ends after their mission is completed, giving him no further use of them.
And someone said that this was poorly done by me because they probably already did find out everything they could about the human defenses. They did, but the key information, the one about the location of the portal, is still out of their grasp, and that is why the fiend NEEDS that deal with my PCs. After the PCs are resolved with(he sends two cloaked winged devils with them who will, if necessary, call for reinforcements to kill them), the fiend is convinced the celestials are the only beings strong enough to repel his invasion.
Additionally, in this DnD campaign, the planes are slowly starting to crash one upon another. No one except the devils knows yet because it happened only in their realm so far. That's the reason of their invasion, now they don't have to fight the abyss armies only, they are fighting on two fronts because the realm of Hades crashed in the middle of their kingdom.

[Conradine]

The processing done in hell is simply a method of extracting that power much faster than the natural processes by which mortal souls gradually break down to feed the planes themselves and the gods that created them.


Extremely intersting.

In your opinion, would they still get the same amount of energy - although more slowly - if they skip the torture part and let the Lawful Evil petitioners be naturally absorbed by Baator?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Extremely intersting.

In your opinion, would they still get the same amount of energy - although more slowly - if they skip the torture part and let the Lawful Evil petitioners be naturally absorbed by Baator?

Of course, but the blood war demands they produce and use more than the trickle they'd get that way. If they waited for the natural process to occur the whole wheel would be endangered. Baator would be overrun by demons and the whole of the upper planes would have to join the fray. The great wheel would run red and black with the blood of angels and the ichor of demons and the balance of reality would shift toward chaos.

It might even awaken the leviathan and mean the end of the prime and ultimately the end of everything as the demons eventually overwhelm everything when there are no more mortal souls fueling the upper planes anymore.

For the balance to be maintained and reality to continue as it has for untold eons, the Baatezu's processing is a necessary evil.

[ATHATH]

@Kelb: Would any Devils accept, say, a charged Talisman of Transferrence as payment? What about a charged Thought Bottle?

[Kelb_Panthera]

@Kelb: Would any Devils accept, say, a charged Talisman of Transferrence as payment? What about a charged Thought Bottle?

I think you've misunderstood. Devils will accept whatever you offer them in exchange for a fair price (by their standards). They'll just try to angle to get your soul in the process too.

He'll give you goods or services worth about 5 gp for every 1 xp in the talisman of transference plus 100gp for the talisman itself, per the usual going rates for such (even though the XP in the talisman are worth about 25 gp per point in absolute terms.)

He'll ask you what you think you're trying to pull with the thought bottle. The XP stored can only be recovered by the one who stored them.

But in both instances, he'll angle to offer you something that's worth just a bit more than you have in trade goods so that he can ask you to sweeten the pot with "a favor" that will be something that pushes you toward damnation if you accept.

If you're cutting a deal for something more nebulous or something that would make damning and subsequently collecting your soul unnecessarily difficult then you basically have to expect to be overcharged (perhaps grossly) or have the deal rejected outright. Cash and goods that aren't specifically suited to fighting demons just don't have nearly the value of a soul or services that further their goal of collecting more souls, especially given that the latter almost certainly nets them your soul in the deal.

Immortality is worth a wish equivalent, at least, and it makes collecting your soul more annoying since they -have- to kill you and can't just wait it out (not that they wouldn't do that anyway if you're not furthering their goals in exchange). If you also include a stipulation that is an unavoidable, "You must be in no way responsible for my death to avoid breaching the contract," then they basically have no recourse but to wait for the vagaries of fate to deliver your soul to them. It could be tomorrow, it could be in 10,000 years. Worse, you might escape damnation in the meantime. You'll have to offer something pretty incredible to make that a decent deal. Something in excess of 50,000 gp of value and more useful to their goals than just raw cash or trade goods.

The kind of immortality where you -can't- be killed shouldn't even be on the table from a metagame perspective. Even gods and the soul-locked (heroes of horror) can be killed with enough effort and ingenuity. That kind of immortality just isn't a thing in D&D.