Rogue using a shield

[Hogsy]

There's the Confouding Shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-trick-combat) weapon trick from the weaponmaster handbook which allows you to take 10 when feinting, right below that trick is another one which says that if you successfuly feint somebody in combat they provoke an AoO from you. Anyhow, Confounding Shield doesn't actually need you to use your shield nor does it mention it at all. Does that mean that a Rogue who doesn't even use a shield can pick it up with mere 5 ranks in Bluff to take 10 on all feint checks? That's pretty cool.

[Tuvarkz]

From the feat's description:


Choose one weapon trick option (one-handed weapon, polearm, ranged, two-handed weapon, two-weapon, or weapon and shield).

You can perform weapon tricks in combat when armed appropriately for that option.

You need to be wearing a weapon+shield to use weapon+shield tricks

[Hogsy]

From the feat's description:



You need to be wearing a weapon+shield to use weapon+shield tricks



Oh, I missed that one. Does a buckler count as a shield?

[Gildedragon]

Oh, I missed that one. Does a buckler count as a shield?

Yes (plus some stuff to get to max character count)

[Hogsy]

Yes (plus some stuff to get to max character count)


Alright, so what if you were using a buckler while wielding a weapon in that arm? Would that be sufficient to use the feat I described above?

[Ashtagon]

Alright, so what if you were using a buckler while wielding a weapon in that arm? Would that be sufficient to use the feat I described above?

If you attack with a weapon on the same arm as the buckler, you lose the buckler's benefits for that round. That should logically include being treated as wielding a shield for the purposes of any special abilities.

[Hogsy]

If you attack with a weapon on the same arm as the buckler, you lose the buckler's benefits for that round. That should logically include being treated as wielding a shield for the purposes of any special abilities.

What if you put spikes on it or get a feat(I'm 100% sure I've seen one) to shield bash with Buckler, it would proc the sneak attack and in general work, right? And with the spikes you'd be able to enchant it as if it was a weapon.

[Ashtagon]

What if you put spikes on it or get a feat(I'm 100% sure I've seen one) to shield bash with Buckler, it would proc the sneak attack and in general work, right? And with the spikes you'd be able to enchant it as if it was a weapon.

That doesn't matter. There are various forms of weaponised bucklers in D&D (two such bucklers in Complete Warrior, possibly some in 3.0e too; not seen any in PRD though) , and all of them note that if you use it as a weapon in any given round, it provides no defensive benefit in that round.

[Tectorman]

That doesn't matter. There are various forms of weaponised bucklers in D&D (two such bucklers in Complete Warrior, possibly some in 3.0e too; not seen any in PRD though) , and all of them note that if you use it as a weapon in any given round, it provides no defensive benefit in that round.

Would the combat tricks qualify as defensive benefits, though?

[Ashtagon]

Would the combat tricks qualify as defensive benefits, though?

I think the key point is that to use the combat tricks, you must be considered to be wielding a shield. If you use a buckler-weapon as a weapon, for that round, you are not considered to be wielding a shield.

Basically, I wouldn't allow it in my games. RAW, using buckler-weapons is undefined, at least within the PRD, because the PRD doesn't appear to have buckler-based weapons (or even shield-bashing with a buckler).

[Hogsy]

I think the key point is that to use the combat tricks, you must be considered to be wielding a shield. If you use a buckler-weapon as a weapon, for that round, you are not considered to be wielding a shield.

Basically, I wouldn't allow it in my games. RAW, using buckler-weapons is undefined, at least within the PRD, because the PRD doesn't appear to have buckler-based weapons (or even shield-bashing with a buckler).

Does shield bashing remove the AC bonus you get from a shield? If so, these wouldn't work with a heavy shield either considering you're shield-bashing with it. With that in mind, you'll be using a buckler as a shield and shield-bash(Through this feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/kobold-press/general-feats---3rd-party---kobold-press/buckler-mastery), you simply choose the -1 to attack rolls and it retains its defensive use thus acting as a shield). That should allow you to take 10 on feint checks and proc sneak attacks on attacks both with the Buckler and your main hand. If however shield-bashing removes the AC bonus of the shield for that given round, it won't work.

[Yanisa]

Does shield bashing remove the AC bonus you get from a shield?

Yes. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/shield-heavy-or-light) But there is Improved Shield Bash (Combat) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-shield-bash-combat---final). So you can shield bash and keep that AC.

But I don't think that one is necessary. As the moment you feint you still have your AC bonus from shield. Then after that Feint you start shield bashing. In my opinion the trick works fine with a normal shield bash. But to be fair the rules are a bit unclear on when exact you are counted as "armed with a shield" and not.



___



And counting feats. A rogue with the following feats can sneak attack each round with all his attacks.
Two-Weapon Fighting -> Improved TWF (2 feats)
Shield Proficiency-> Improved Shield Bash (2 feats)
Combat Expertise -> Improved Feint -> Greater Feint (3 feats)
Weapon Trick (Confounding Shield) and Weapon Trick (Feint and Bash) (2 feats)

That's 9 feats, a bit feat heavy. (Intimidate does it quicker, easier and has more rogue support.)

[Ashtagon]

Yes. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/shield-heavy-or-light) But there is Improved Shield Bash (Combat) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-shield-bash-combat---final). So you can shield bash and keep that AC.

But I don't think that one is necessary. As the moment you feint you still have your AC bonus from shield. Then after that Feint you start shield bashing. In my opinion the trick works fine with a normal shield bash. But to be fair the rules are a bit unclear on when exact you are counted as "armed with a shield" and not.


By RAW, if you shield bash, you lose the defensive benefits of the shield until the same point in your next round.

You could feint as your move action (assuming you have Improved Feint), then shield bash as your standard action. At this point, you lose your shield bonus until your next standard action comes up.

[Yanisa]

By RAW, if you shield bash, you lose the defensive benefits of the shield until the same point in your next round.

You could feint as your move action (assuming you have Improved Feint), then shield bash as your standard action. At this point, you lose your shield bonus until your next standard action comes up.

I get that, but the only requirement the feat has is that you can use the trick "when armed appropriately". Most weapon trick groups explain what that means (Two Weapon Fighting only works when Wielding Two Weapons, duh), but weapon and shield lacks such a explanation. I could argue that Shield Bashing and loosing your AC still means you are armed with a shield, because you can shield bash in AoO's. And with that logic you can shield bash first and then use Confounding Shield.

[Sayt]

There is the Shielded Gauntlet Style from Armor Master's Handbook.

Style Feat lets you treat spiked gauntlets and gauntlets as bucklers, granting a +1 shield to ac and counts as a buckler while you get the shield to AC.
Second feat changes your attack die to sacred weapon damage of a warpriest 4 levels lower than yours and gives you a free AoO per round with the gauntlet (That can also be a steal or disarm that doesn't provoke)
Third feat makes you no longer lose shield bonus when you attack with the gauntlet or use it to hold a weapon, and you get the gauntlets ehancement bons to the shield AC from the first geat as if it were a shield enhancement bonus.

It's a lot of feat investment, but it should all come online by the time you get feint and bash.