LMOP Spoiler alert, Ruins of thundertree

[Stygofthedump]

So my 5 person lv3 party is waltzing through this town with no difficulty at all. I suspect they are feeling like even the dragon will be no real threat. So tips on dragon moves please. like grab Character and fly (and mechanics of this please).

Any ideas how I can teach them fear again?

Another thought I had was the mother of all twig blights based on treant stats?

thoughts?

[Foxhound438]

one use of the breath weapon should put them in their place. If they're still gung-ho about fighting it, go to someone who's already unconcious and hit them twice, auto-crit since they're incap, they're dead. eat the body. show them why to be afraid.

[Gastronomie]

one use of the breath weapon should put them in their place. If they're still gung-ho about fighting it, go to someone who's already unconcious and hit them twice, auto-crit since they're incap, they're dead. eat the body. show them why to be afraid.If this guy is joking, it's not funny, and if he's serious, he's a bad DM.

I posted some stuff that could be useful for you in a previous thread so copy-pasting from there:Also, don't make single-boss encounters unless you have a lot of stuff to back up the boss, because due to action economy issues, 4 v.s. 1 is going to end in the boss dying a very miserable death (either that, or he inflicts too much damage and kills everybody).

However, if crafted right, single-boss encounters can be fun. So just giving you an example of what you can do, due to this being table-talk and not a strictly ruled video game (one way is AngryDM's idea of pretending two monsters are one, but my approach is a different one):

So, I recently DM'ed a low-level session featuring a Black Dragon Wyrmling as its single-boss monster (and it turned out everyone really loved the boss encounter). I supposed I should make the boss a dragon since the game is called Dungeons and Dragons anyways, and to introduce these new people to the game, I felt it was better if they could enjoy an epic fight. So, beforehand, I made several tweaks such as (1) lowering its AC, since it's very hard to hit and can get frustrating for a lot of people, (2) increasing its HP by a ton, to make it tougher, (3) lowering its breath weapon's damage, to keep it from killing the wizard in one shot, and (4) giving it a lot of unique fighting techniques.

First off, the dragon is perched on top of the entrance of its hoard room, clinging to the wall like a spider abovehead, so with a good Stealth roll it can ambush the players. Even after that, it shows a variety of unique moves that make the combat more compelling, such as:
1. Having limited "Nimble Escape": If it hasn't attacked yet this turn, it can move without risk of opprotunity attacks. This allows it to fight with not only the frontline fighter, but instead everyone in the party - making everyone feel risk of defeat.
2. Making it take "cool-looking" actions. For instance, it grabs a frontline fighter and tosses it into the air, and proceeds to shoot its breath weapon directly into him bulls-eye. Its effect is actually the same as the normal (more like, debuffed as aforementioned) breath weapon, but it looks better.
3. Making it take "cool-looking" actions Part 2. After it bites onto a character (grappling him), it sways its head and flings him away and into the backrow wizard (DEX save failed), making the two tumbling away into a hoard of treasure - which crumbles and falls on top of them. It takes a turn for the two to wriggle out, and when it does, the dragon is waiting in front of them with its mouth ready...
4. Making it beat its wings whenever it flies up. With failing a low DC, any character in front of the dragon is pushed away or is knocked off his feet.
5. We were using battle grids. Whenever the Acid Breath is used, the area becomes slippery, difficult terrain, and at a low DC it may cause the character crossing it to slip and fall prone.
6. When in danger, the dragon casts "Darkness" as a reaction, against an attacking player (he shoots darkness from his mouth like an octopus's black ink). The darkness engulfs the character, and meanwhile the dragon darts away and up.

Now, of course, none of these are given as the Black Dragon Wyrmling's abilities in the original Monster Manual. In the case of 2, it's actually "against the rules" since the Wyrmling can attack only once per turn, and it's taking two actions here. The same with 6 - while it's stated that a "young or older dragon can cast spells with a spell level no less than 1/3 of the dragon's CR", it's also implied that even as innate spellcasters, a Wyrmling can't cast spells.

BUT WHO CARES IT LOOKS COOL. These are also all stuff you can't see in a video game like Pokemon - stuff that can be done because this is table-talk. Wonderful! And more importantly (actually, this is the only thing that matters, but anyways), the players enjoyed it. They had no idea what was coming next, they said, and they loved how it was possible for them to think outside the box.

[DanyBallon]

If this guy is joking, it's not funny, and if he's serious, he's a bad DM.


Joking or not, that specific dragon breath weapon is a terrifying thing for a 3rd level party. We encounterd it twice, the first time at 3rd level and got lucky to chase him away, but almost lost two party member, the second time, we were 4th level, and manage to kill him, but in a single breath, he killed our fighter, and drop near death our two healers.

To OP, if you want the dragon to instill fear into your player, have them fight him in its lair, where space is limited, and tactical is hard to gain for the players. But I suggest that as a DM you pull your punches and somehow have the dragon flew away before TPKing your party.

[Gastronomie]

Joking or not, that specific dragon breath weapon is a terrifying thing for a 3rd level party. We encounterd it twice, the first time at 3rd level and got lucky to chase him away, but almost lost two party member, the second time, we were 4th level, and manage to kill him, but in a single breath, he killed our fighter, and drop near death our two healers.Which is exactly why I adviced to lower its damage. The original Wyrmlings are obviously not meant for characters of the level.

[Sigreid]

Our party managed to take him at 3rd level, without nerfing him by spreading out and taking advantage of a potion of flying and a fireball scroll we had found earlier. We decided to give it a go because the party is made up of mostly good guys and we couldn't leave it that close to town. There was a lot of luck, and I think everyone but the Druid and Rogue incapped, but no one died.

[Stygofthedump]

Ah, good to know the dragon is to be feared, i havnt looked much at its stats yet. I wont tweek anything then.
Its just the zombies and Tree blights were no challenge.

[Gastronomie]

Ah, good to know the dragon is to be feared, i havnt looked much at its stats yet. I wont tweek anything then.
Its just the zombies and Tree blights were no challenge.You should tweak it. Okay, actually, I don't know what the original encounter is like, but if it's a solo encounter against a dragon and its breath weapon inflicts too much damage for the level, you should tweak it. At least I would. Being a fearful opponent and being a badly designed encounter are two separate things.

Zombies and tree blights, being low-CR, have the ever-perplexing problem of attack accuracy, especially when against frontline fighters with 16~20 AC. You should somehow find a way to spread the attacks among everybody in the party, and stuff like that (the floor behind the wizard erupting, and a zombie crawling out of the basement etc. whatever works).

[Innocent_bystan]

So tips on dragon moves please. like grab Character and fly (and mechanics of this please).


A Dragon should never land within melee range of the party. That will get it killed real quick by a party that knows what it is doing. Do strafing runs with you breath weapon until the party splits up to find cover. Then you land near the farthest PC and kill it with melee attacks. Immediately take off again and do strafing runs until you're certain you can kill off another PC. Repeat as needed. If possible, focus on the guy in robes.

If the dragon falls to less than half hp, retreat until they are bunched up again and breath weapon the bedjeezes out of them. Bonus points if their short term buffs just ran out.

Do not let them rest! A green dragon is evil and intelligent. Guerrilla them until they croak.

[Mjolnirbear]

We went in with NPC advice and a good knowledge check so knew to spread out. We failed to account for the most obvious power: flight. He flew to a new position which meant we were not so much spread out as in a row. One of us dropped right away.

We managed to kill it though. The druid tanked a few hit, letting the mage pile on the damage with amazing rolls for Scorching Ray. I Climbed Onto Bigger Creature (halfling dexadin) just before it hit the running away threshold and managed to land the killing blow by critting with a neck chop (then jumped off the flying dragon onto the bear and narrowly avoiding a deadly fall)

It can be done, but we had insane luck.

[Alerad]

If I remember, it has a listed Stealth score. Have it ambush the party, either using its breath weapon or attacking stray characters when it can.

Have it try to turn the most corrupt character by offering them reward for betraying their party.

The original rules suggest using the cultists as meat shields if you can deceive them (I think).

The Druid might be inclined to help with Protection from Poison.

Antitoxins should help a lot. Being a dwarf even more.

I don't remember how big is the hoard. Can the dragon hide in the pile? Either way, its lair should provide means to escape. Hole in the roof or something.

If the dragon learns the party is in the town it can ambush them while resting. Break a window and breathe inside, then fly away. Wait on the roof maybe to ambush fleeing characters.

If ambushed, breathe poison and run away immediately. Come back in half hour for a revenge round.

But as Gastronomie said if you don't lower the breath weapon (or give enough hints how to prepare vs poison), there is a good chance for a TPK on round one if you roll too well.

[MBControl]

I'm all for killing characters, if they do stupid stuff. Strolling up and bitch slapping a dragon at lvl 3 would qualify.

As a DM, I would give the party multiple clear clues that they do not want to screw with a big threat. Have townsfolk fleeing, buildings exploding with fire, a seasoned warrior telling them straight up "you need to hide, that dragon means certain death", have the Dragon wipe out the town militia in one swoop of flame, carrying a few of them high up into the air and dropping them to their deaths.

Then, if that doesn't teach them PC's the fear they should have, they can die. At some point you have to let the world that surrounds them play out naturally, not adapt it to suit the party.

[Sigreid]

You should tweak it. Okay, actually, I don't know what the original encounter is like, but if it's a solo encounter against a dragon and its breath weapon inflicts too much damage for the level, you should tweak it. At least I would. Being a fearful opponent and being a badly designed encounter are two separate things.



I disagree. Deciding that a fight is too much and that it will have to be made another day is part of being a successful adventurer. Sometimes deciding that the risk is worth it because of a threat to others is part of being a hero. There is nothing in the starter set module that makes you fight the dragon right then. You can take the risk as our gaming group did, or you can come back later.

[BigONotation]

You should tweak it. Okay, actually, I don't know what the original encounter is like, but if it's a solo encounter against a dragon and its breath weapon inflicts too much damage for the level, you should tweak it. At least I would. Being a fearful opponent and being a badly designed encounter are two separate things.

Zombies and tree blights, being low-CR, have the ever-perplexing problem of attack accuracy, especially when against frontline fighters with 16~20 AC. You should somehow find a way to spread the attacks among everybody in the party, and stuff like that (the floor behind the wizard erupting, and a zombie crawling out of the basement etc. whatever works).

It sounds like as a DM, your PCs are the heroes of the story and never have it too rough which is cool and a legitimate way to play.

At my table however, if you are fighting a dragon, it will behave as it's nature dictates exactly. It is an intelligent, manipulative, deadly foe and should put the fear of death into the player's hearts just at the sight of it. The gods above forbid you attempt to ever fight anything above a young dragon in it's lair because it will eat you alive with lair actions + fear + breath weapon unless you have countermeasures ready. Dragons are the alpha predators at my table and are treated as such.

[Gastronomie]

I disagree. Deciding that a fight is too much and that it will have to be made another day is part of being a successful adventurer. Sometimes deciding that the risk is worth it because of a threat to others is part of being a hero. There is nothing in the starter set module that makes you fight the dragon right then. You can take the risk as our gaming group did, or you can come back later.I actually didn't realize LMOP standed for Lost Mine of Phandelver until just now. My INT scores. (But really, I think abbreviating everything is a bad practice...)

Yeah, in that case, I think it is fine as it was.
It sounds like as a DM, your PCs are the heroes of the story and never have it too rough which is cool and a legitimate way to play.

At my table however, if you are fighting a dragon, it will behave as it's nature dictates exactly. It is an intelligent, manipulative, deadly foe and should put the fear of death into the player's hearts just at the sight of it. The gods above forbid you attempt to ever fight anything above a young dragon in it's lair because it will eat you alive with lair actions + fear + breath weapon unless you have countermeasures ready. Dragons are the alpha predators at my table and are treated as such.I try to make it "rough" and "harmful" without it being actually "fatal" (the players at my table have really well thought-out characters with detailed backstories and personalities, and neither of us thinks it'll be fun if they actually die and never come back). For me, it's ideal if all the characters are at low HP at the end of the boss encounter, some of them with harmful conditions, perhaps with some of them temporally incapacitated during the fight - but none of them actually dead. I try my best to make this be the case, as already explained in detail in my other post. At times I also manipulate my rolls behind the DM screen, change the HP of the boss monster, and do other "cheating" stuff, if it feels it's required. Some people don't like it but I believe it's fine.

[Stygofthedump]

Thanks for advice people.
Did you know it doesn't actually fly as a dragon move mode in Module, yea.. gonna fix that. I hope the party will not attempt to fight the dragon, I will not be going soft on them.
I gave twig blights possibility of causing disease (DC10 CON save on hit) just to make players worry a little about wounds.
I might add in a lager twig blight now they are used to seeing little ones on map (we use roll20 maps and so should you, its great!)
I love the idea of zombie digging its way up behind mage and attacking, maybe no move speed but still scary as hell.

[Gastronomie]

When introducing an encounter in which the players cannot hope to win, do keep in mind that most players will be terribly frustrated at a TPK and that it's the DM's job to build "challenging/compelling encounters", not "mission impossible". I don't mind using the Young Green Dragon, but especially if your players are new, you should introduce him in such a way that it's as clear as hell to anybody that they cannot hope to win, that this is an encounter that should be solved with role-play and not attack rolls. Say, if the characters witness it hunting pray and the DM describes in terrible detail of how the breath weapon incinerates a pretty powerful enemy monster the players have already fought in one blow, that will be enough in most cases. If that's not, you can even tell the players, "you can see feom your experience that that venomous breath will kill all of you with a single blow".

If the PCs say they really want to fight it, the DM's job is not to railroad them, though. The right thing for the DM to do is to grant their wishes, have their actions move the story on. Perhaps have a NPC stop them prior to the battle and tell them to visit a particular hermit. Convincing said hermit bestows the party potions of resistance against poison and other stuff like that, allowing them to perhaps gain the upper hand. And stuff like that.

Well, do as you want.

[Sigreid]

When introducing an encounter in which the players cannot hope to win, do keep in mind that most players will be terribly frustrated at a TPK and that it's the DM's job to build "challenging/compelling encounters", not "mission impossible". I don't mind using the Young Green Dragon, but especially if your players are new, you should introduce him in such a way that it's as clear as hell to anybody that they cannot hope to win, that this is an encounter that should be solved with role-play and not attack rolls. Say, if the characters witness it hunting pray and the DM describes in terrible detail of how the breath weapon incinerates a pretty powerful enemy monster the players have already fought in one blow, that will be enough in most cases. If that's not, you can even tell the players, "you can see feom your experience that that venomous breath will kill all of you with a single blow".

If the PCs say they really want to fight it, the DM's job is not to railroad them, though. The right thing for the DM to do is to grant their wishes, have their actions move the story on. Perhaps have a NPC stop them prior to the battle and tell them to visit a particular hermit. Convincing said hermit bestows the party potions of resistance against poison and other stuff like that, allowing them to perhaps gain the upper hand. And stuff like that.

Well, do as you want.

This is one solid way of doing it. Basically you are at a point where you have to decide on part of your DMing style. In one route, you do things the way Gastronomie suggests and the party can count on an encounter either being possible for them or there being huge red warning signs to not do that and maybe some help. The other route is you put stuff in the world and let the party figure out what they want to do about it and live with the consequences. Neither way is wrong, but once you set a path you should be consistent. If you (for lack of a better term) cater to the party's strengths and weaknesses and then suddenly switch to being more unforgiving the party may well feel ill used.

[Stygofthedump]

Yep, veteran players. Should know better, but we will see. dragon is willing to talk but first sign of disrespect then bam! surprise breath weapon
(should this be initiative or surprise? or maybe an insight roll?)

[Sigreid]

Yep, veteran players. Should know better, but we will see. dragon is willing to talk but first sign of disrespect then bam! surprise breath weapon
(should this be initiative or surprise? or maybe an insight roll?)

Initiative. They should be worried about the attack the whole time.

[Vogonjeltz]

So my 5 person lv3 party is waltzing through this town with no difficulty at all. I suspect they are feeling like even the dragon will be no real threat. So tips on dragon moves please. like grab Character and fly (and mechanics of this please).

Any ideas how I can teach them fear again?

Another thought I had was the mother of all twig blights based on treant stats?

thoughts?

I mean, this is probably the hardest fight in the module, deliberately so. Make sure they encounter the Druid who conveys the danger inherent in no uncertain terms. If they try to fight the Dragon it is very likely they will all be devoured.

[Innocent_bystan]

My players didn't actually fight the dragon.

There is a AL adventure 'A courting of fire', in which the players go to an abandoned druid temple to find an artifact that is reported to control dragons.

The druid in Thundertree has heard rumors of this temple and asks the players to try and find the scale for him. In return he will tell them the location of Cragmaw Castle. He will use the scale to drive off the dragon and he has no interest in the treasure hoard, the dragon-controlling artifact will suffice. *grin*

I put a map to the location in the cottage where the cultists live, together with climbing gear.

The adventure gives about as much xp as the dragon fight.

Afterwards, the players were chatting with each other and the druid and one of them, the fighter with the dragon background, wonders is they would have been able to drive off the dragon by themselves. The druid then proposes a drug-induced dragon fighting hallucination to find out. In the hallucination the party found out that they were out of their league. But it sure was fun. It was a no-holds-barred, I-don't-care-if-I-die, let's-use-all-our-consumables slugfest. The party loved it.

[ChelseaNH]

Keep in mind that the dragon won't fight to the death, so they only have to drive it down to half HP to win.

I scared the players by siccing the dragon on the cultists. I figured most of the cultists were balking once the "let's go talk to a dragon" plan went from talk to reality, but one of them was more gung-ho. Since the players didn't confront the cultists, Gung Ho decided he'd prove their worth to the dragon by narcing on the party. Unfortunately, the dragon took offense with his tone and went after the cultists. The party (in hiding) got to see the breath weapon in action, plus the dragon tore down the house where the rest of the cultists were hiding. (One cultist was spared, purpose TBD.)

I also leveled the druid on par with the party and gave him spells (emphasis on the one that helped vs poison). Once the dragon emerged, he was observing in squirrel form and could have helped out the party if they got into it with the dragon.

The party wound up running away while the dragon was busy with the cultists. When it couldn't find them right away, it got worried they were sneaking into its hoard, so it spent time shoring up the defense instead of hunting them.

[ioan]

If they haven't killed the cultists yet, and get to the Dragon.... Get them to fight from the rear whilst the party are fighting the dragon. Because who doesn't hear a Dragon fighting from miles away :)