Hypothetical Paladin Question

[90sMusic]

Hypothetical situation:

You are a paladin of Arete.
Arete appears before you physically. You are in awe of her divine presence and the near infinite power exuding from it.
Arete points to an orphanage and says burn it down and kill all the innocent children inside. Arete also says to lie about it if anybody asks.

Now we're ignoring the fact Arete would never actually do this, we're saying in this hypothetical situation, she DID. And also in this situation, you are convinced beyond all doubt that it is the real, actual goddess that you have always followed and worshiped your entire life, not some trick or an imposter or anything, she is the real deal.

So what do you do?
To me it seems to come down to one question: Do you follow your ideals or do you obey your god?

This isn't entirely just for funsies, i'm trying to get some perspective on this kind of thing from other long-term players because of an idea a friend and I came up with and discussed which I will post here later.

[Florian]

It´s entirely depending on what Arete actually is and how known that fact is.
If Arete is just some powerful divine being that is associated with certain things, then flip her the bird.
If Arete is the actual embodiment of certain things having taken form, literally being the thing, then you should obey the command.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Morally, the only answer is to realize your goddess has either lost her mind or is testing you. Throw down your sword and declare that you're done with her and walk away. If it's a test, you pass. If it's not, you die.

If it is a test, consider converting to a new god. This one's bat-crap crazy.

[archon1212]

It depends - Do you care for your life more than your ideals. If you value your life, obey the god. If you value your ideals, disobey. (Hint: you are a paladin, you value your ideal more than your life). Exactly what you do is up to your sense of drama.

[Kantaki]

How is this even question?
The answer is obvious.
Any „true defenderof law and good”* would disobey this order or at least ask for a explanation. And then disobey because the answer is most likely not good enough.
And that is doubly true for a Paladin.
I mean this either a test or not your deity (anymore). Either suggesting she should do anatomically.. improbable things with her knee is the right answer.

*Relative term. In this context it includes anyone who has the minimum moral standards necessary not to burn innocents of any age and familial situation alive, no matter the alignment. So most likely anyone who isn't capital E EVIL.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Smite your goddess. She's obviously gone Evil.

[BWR]

Most paladins in most games I know of would just say no.
That is working under the general D&D assumption that Law and Good are external, universal concepts independent of divinities.
If Arete is literal Good and Law and everything she says or commands is just and good, killing a bunch of orphans is suddenly the right thing to do, so let's kill some kids.

[Vizzerdrix]

Meh. Blackguard exists for a reason. Get to choppin!

[Conradine]

{Scrubbed}

[Psyren]

Paladins' powers don't come from gods. Not only should you refuse this order, you wouldn't even fall for doing so.

The Paladin's code requires that they only respect legitimate authority - and a god who has gone crazy is not.

[Gildedragon]

Morally, the only answer is to realize your goddess has either lost her mind or is testing you. Throw down your sword and declare that you're done with her and walk away. If it's a test, you pass. If it's not, you die.

If it is a test, consider converting to a new god. This one's bat-crap crazy.

Don't throw down the sword, be ready to draw it.
-------
My answer:
Ask for a "Why". If the reason is insufficient, because I say so, or dodged, then be done with her. But there's plausible reasons to do it: the orphans are already dead and trapped in undeath by the building itself to serve as fuel for some nefarious purpose. Because the fiends that run the orphanage are very crafty, they have corrupted the villagers, who will defend the orphanage to the death. So lying about you're going to do is the only way to prevent the death of innocents. Contrived, I know, but a possibility, and hence Arete deserves a chance to explain herself

[Red Fel]

Going with those here who point out that a Paladin follows principles, not individuals. If your Paladin were to blindly obey a deity, he'd have rolled a useful class, like Cleric.

Paladins represent Goodness, not deities. Even in PF, only two class features reference a deity - Divine Bond and Holy Champion - and then only in passing, as fluff. With the exception of the Sacred Servant, Sword of Valor, and Temple Champion archetypes, most Paladin archetypes either don't refer to a deity, or don't specifically require you to obey one.

The point is, a Paladin represents generic LG principles first, obedience to a deity second, if at all. If you had to blindly obey a deity, you'd be playing a Cleric. You're not.

This is an order that a Paladin cannot obey. To do so, even at the direct orders of a deity, would be a willfully Evil act of gross proportions, a severe and thorough violation of the Paladin code, and most importantly, a total abdication of the Paladin's moral responsibility and agency.

Not even once.

[Honest Tiefling]

If I were the paladin, I'd get my head checked. Sure, I'm convinced that its Arete, but that doesn't mean someone hasn't found a way to put crazy mind magic on me. Going to a temple and having a detect evil spree seems like a good plan.

I mean, if the orphanage was really full of aberrations pretending to be children or something, she'd either 1) say so and avoid this whole issue or 2) do it herself. She's right here! She's close enough to point at it! Get off your bum, you lazy god!

[GrayDeath]

This answer assumes Arete is the Embodyment of Good (and mostly of law as well), not just any good Deity.

First Action: Detect Evil on Arete.

if that does not work, or I do have an ABSOLUTE way of identifying her, ask why.

If she offers a PERFECT answer I might consider doing it. But only after thinking long and hard about anything that might screw my perceptions.

If not, I draw my Holy Avenger and start telling this supposedly (G)good Goddess what an EVIL thing she is demanding, and offering her one chance to step back and atone.
Before smiting her.

[90sMusic]

Kind of surprised with the replies. So many are saying the ideals are more important than the god.

Paladins absolutely get their powers from their deity, where else would it be coming from? They must actively pray to their deity to even refill their spells each day. And the ideals they have and laws they follow are laid down by their deity more or less. I'm not so sure everyone would simply refuse to serve a literal god that popped down and ordered you to do something. This isn't some politician that was involved in a scandal and you no longer like them or want to respect them, this is a divine being you had WORSHIPED your entire life and who has been filling you with their divine power the entire time to use against your enemies.

I think you absolutely would "fall" for disobeying because even if you had done nothing evil or against your code, the god that you draw power from could just flip the switch to stop giving you power.

I kind of think a paladin should carry out their god's command. Because as I said, this is a god, YOUR god, not some random world leader you can just turn your back on without consequences. Even your very soul is tied to this being and your afterlife is based on your connection to them. Its a very big deal. I think the very nature of faith would make you believe you were doing the right thing or that there was a reason for it. After all, faith in reality is about belief based on nothing. You don't have any evidence or proof, but you still firmly believe in something if you have faith. That is kind of the point.

As for a test, look at a similar test in the bible. When Abraham's God wanted to test him, he gave him an outrageous order that was to sacrifice his own son. But the test was to see if he would actually do it, if he had faith and believed in him enough to kill his only son, etc. He wasn't looking for him to say "NOPE! WONT DO IT, ITS EVIL!" and clap his hands, he was expecting loyalty and obedience to him. He stopped him before he actually did it, but still, he wanted to know he WOULD.

[Psyren]

Paladins absolutely get their powers from their deity, where else would it be coming from? They must actively pray to their deity to even refill their spells each day.

Do you have a rules source for this claim? Pathfinder doesn't say anything about paladin spells coming from deities. CRB 62:


A paladin must spend 1 hour each day in quiet prayer and
meditation to regain her daily allotment of spells. A paladin
may prepare and cast any spell on the paladin spell list,
provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must
choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.

Again, nothing about deities - just "quiet prayer and meditation."



I think you absolutely would "fall" for disobeying because even if you had done nothing evil or against your code, the god that you draw power from could just flip the switch to stop giving you power.

I think you're just hunting for a reason to make your player's paladin fall, which... isn't exactly reasonable GMing.

[Gildedragon]

Kind of surprised with the replies. So many are saying the ideals are more important than the god.

Paladins absolutely get their powers from their deity, where else would it be coming from? nope nope nope. Paladins are not beholden to a god, there is nothing in their class description says they pick a god, hence picking a god is pure fluff.


They must actively pray to their deity to even refill their spells each day. pray/meditate yes. To a deity nope.
And the ideals they have and laws they follow are laid down by their deity more or less.nope. Good and law are fundamental forces, not mandated by the gods.
I'm not so sure everyone would simply refuse to serve a literal god that popped down and ordered you to do something.Because being and doing good is more important than obeying a god.
This isn't some politician that was involved in a scandal and you no longer like them or want to respect them, this is a divine being you had WORSHIPED your entire life and who has been filling you with their divine power the entire time to use against your enemies. yes and if they cease to be worthy of your worship and reverence


I think you absolutely would "fall" for disobeying because even if you had done nothing evil or against your code, the god that you draw power from could just flip the switch to stop giving you power. No. Paladins are not clerics. A god doesn't dictate your powers.
You fundamentally misunderstand how gods (and alignments and paladins) work in D&D/PF.

Within the GAME human sacrifice and wanton slaughter (of innocents no less) are unequivocally Evil (even Vile) acts (as per the rules of the GAME), and being willing to go through with it, indicates that you are not Good (but probably Lawful if you follow orders like a sheep). In D&Dland a god that wishes to test a paladin by ordering them to do an Evil deed ought expect the paladin to refuse if not outright attack them: and that is the right answer.

And from a faith based PoV... Well having evidence of your deity being ideologically opposed to you and what you believed them to be... Well that can lead to a crisis of faith, but I feel it makes more sense to reject a deity (the worship of which was a choice) than the moral system that you've nurtured. Values over faith.

Then there's stuff like Vow of Obedience... But that's neither here nor there

[90sMusic]

Do you have a rules source for this claim? Pathfinder doesn't say anything about paladin spells coming from deities. CRB 62:



Again, nothing about deities - just "quiet prayer and meditation."



I think you're just hunting for a reason to make your player's paladin fall, which... isn't exactly reasonable GMing.

Don't leap to conclusions here, this has nothing to do with me DMing anything. Im not trying to punish anyone or make anyone fall, it has nothing to do with any of that.

And it says you have to pray to receive your spells. You pray to gods. Otherwise, what are you praying to? "goodness"? Prayer BY DEFINITION is to a god or deity. Sooo yeah.

[Gildedragon]

Don't leap to conclusions here, this has nothing to do with me DMing anything. Im not trying to punish anyone or make anyone fall, it has nothing to do with any of that.

And it says you have to pray to receive your spells. You pray to gods. Otherwise, what are you praying to? "goodness"? Prayer BY DEFINITION is to a god or deity. Sooo yeah.

Prayer needn't be to a god. Any object of worship (such as the impersonal force of Good, fate, Righteousness... etc) will suffice; also you're ignoring the meditation part of the paladin spell recovery.

[Bucky]

There is no penalty whatsoever for a paladin switching deities. In this particular case, it's completely reasonable to refuse the order and start praying to a different LG deity instead.

That said, the paladin might also reasonably loophole the order. Evacuate the orphanage, then set it on fire, then kill all the innocent children left inside (there aren't any), then take whatever steps are necessary to house and protect the orphans. And if anyone asks, tell them Arete has forbidden you to talk about it (which is technically a lie, complying with the order, but isn't deceptive in character).

[Divide by Zero]

Don't leap to conclusions here, this has nothing to do with me DMing anything. Im not trying to punish anyone or make anyone fall, it has nothing to do with any of that.

I'm not sure what the point of this exercise is, then. Paladins fall when they commit an Evil act, which this clearly would be. So if you rule that they also fall for disobeying their god, and ostensibly Good gods randomly give Evil commands, then being a paladin is just a catch-22.

In any case, a character truly devoted to the cause of Good would say no, take the fall, and then have someone cast atonement to convert to a hopefully less insane deity.

[Psyren]

Prayer BY DEFINITION is to a god or deity. Sooo yeah.

No, this is wrong. You can pray to ideals or philosophies too.

You can also pray to whole pantheons, and thus one going crazy would not change your mandates.

Either way, nothing is forcing the Paladin to keep worshiping this one misbegotten deity.

[Shpadoinkle]

90sMusic, show me where in the book it says that paladins MUST have a patron deity.

[denthor]

Let me start by saying I hate everything paladins represent

No questions asked burn it to the ground. Then go to a cathedral of my god and confess my sins.

[Slayer Lord]

I don't really like the initial questions because it feels like it's forcing the Lawful Stupid Paladin stereotype. How exactly are we convinced beyond a doubt that it's our true patron? Any paladin worthy of the name who hears an authority figure demanding a massacre of innocents is going to be instantly suspicious, especially if it's the god you've been loyal to your whole life. I'd investigate the situation and found out for sure if it really is my god, or if they've lost their mind, or what. If it really is my god and he's completely lost his marbles, then I'd seek out patronage from a god that's still good. As soon as possible.

A paladin is supposed to be a symbol of good and right. And there are plenty of good gods to choose from in D&D/PF. To a degree, yes, faith is about believing without seeing, but you don't have to be a moron about it. Blind faith is how crusades and inquisitions get started. And not the "fighting against a horde of invading demons," sort of way. And as far as faith in the Judeo-Christian tradition, I distinctly remember that Jesus had some unkind things to say about people who obsessed over the spirit of the law instead of the spirit of the law.

Soapbox aside, this really seems like the sort of trap only a really bad DM would put someone through. Kill the helpless orphans, you fall. Ignore your until-now benevolent deity's insane commands without question, you fall and then get smited.

[LeighTheDwarf]

I would argue with my god. I say "you have allowed your followers reason and free will. My reason and free will are telling me that I must refuse your order. Why are you ordering me to go against the reason and free will and conscience? You have given me these things as great gifts, and I value them. Are you now asking me to throw them away?"

[Petrukio]

If you had to blindly obey a deity, you'd be playing a Cleric.


No. Paladins are not clerics. A god doesn't dictate your powers.

Hate to say this, but not only are Paladins not required to worship gods, neither are clerics.

First, some quoted text from the Core Rulebook (6th printing):

"A paladin must spend 1 hour each day in quiet prayer and meditation to regain her daily allotment of spells." -- page 62

"Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time when she must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain her daily allotment of spells." -- page 40



As others have pointed out, the paladin's description doesn't say anything about worshipping gods. The same is the case for the cleric. There ARE campaigns where it is required (Pathfinder Society comes to mind), but by the rules-as-written, while that is the most common interpretation, it's by no means the only one. Oh, one more quote -- pay attention to the latter part here, where it pretty much says it outright (I bolded it just to be sure you know what I mean):

"A cleric’s deity influences her alignment, what magic she can perform, her values, and how others see her. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to her deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if her alignment matches that domain. If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, she still selects two domains to represent her spiritual inclinations and abilities (subject to GM approval). The restriction on alignment domains still applies." -- page 40 again



In final answer to the original question, I'm going to go with what the others have to say, but I'm also going to point out that paladins (and clerics) are mortal. Even if they are utterly of the belief that there this is their god giving the order, there is always doubt at the bottom of belief. No mortal being is capable of true KNOWLEDGE, of absolute surety, especially when dealing with beings on the level of the gods.

In short, it's far more likely that the paladin is being fooled, even if he doesn't think otherwise. And he has to be aware of that. If there is even the chance of that -- and since there is no way for the paladin to truly know, there is always a chance -- he must let his ideals guide him. Otherwise, he's just a fighter without the feats.

[GrayDeath]

In short, it's far more likely that the paladin is being fooled, even if he doesn't think otherwise. And he has to be aware of that. If there is even the chance of that -- and since there is no way for the paladin to truly know, there is always a chance -- he must let his ideals guide him. Otherwise, he's just a fighter without the feats.


That, and as others have said: A Paladin (in D&D at least until 3.5) is NOT a classical "Holy Warrior/Godssend whatever" Type.
He is a Force of Good and law, the alst Line of Defense for those who cannot defend themselves, the morally best any mortal can ever hope to be (granted not often is he PLAYED that way^^).

There is little to no question, if I was such a being, that I would deny that order, Fall or no.
Because some times falling is by far the lesser Evil (rather often actually ... most Paladins who fall do not "do the Miko"^^).

[Fluffy Viking]

A paladin devotes their entire life to upholding the values of Good, and Law. A paladin is the person that leads through example, the light in the shadows and the wall upon which Evil breaks. Any paladin that receives an order, even from heir god in person, to burn an orphanage, is morally obligated to not move a single finger until a satisfactory answer is given. If none is given, then they have been blessed with the chance to rid the world of a great evil and can die with a smile on their face.

Any god that claims to be good would NEVER, under ANY circumstances, give such an order without a reason beyond 'Obey me. I am your god.'

[Knight Magenta]

An important thing to consider is that you can be no more sure of anything than you are of your own perceptions. For example, everything you see could be an illusion forced on you by a crafty enchanter that is trying to trick you into burning an orphanage. If you've failed your save, then every piece of "evidence" of Arete's divinity is just more illusion.

Worse, if the being before you is a deity but is instead, say, Loki... You have pretty much no way of avoiding his mind-whammy. So you must fall back on the "is this reasonable" check. And baring more information, about why Arete is telling you to do this it is a bad idea to take it at face value.

I feel that hypotheticals that say "you absolutely know X" are terrible, because you can never absolutely know anything. You are limited by your perceptions. Thus such questions are basically meaningless.

[Venico]

Step 1) Ask what the shiggy diggy Arete is up to and why she has suddenly flopped on her ideals and followers.
Step 2) Start trying to contact another deity with which I can relay what Arete is doing and hope to have some reasonable answers/back up.
Step 3) Stay in defensive position until Arete moves on me or I get a satisfactory explanation.

Paladins while usually religious and beholden to those ideals are ultimately defenders of weak and innocent. They are the shield that protects the world from evil. Imagine you're a police officer and your supervisor who has always been going on about how you need to enforce the law and protect society from the evils you can. Today he comes in and tells you to go into an orphanage, and burn it the hell down. Mag dump into any innocent you see running away from the fire. Something fishy is going on obviously and even if for some reason it absolutely is still your supervisor, he is not in any state of mind to be giving orders and nor should your LG Officer just follow it obediently.

[Pavbat666]

If it were me, Paladin being my favourite class, I would have said no, as a default option. However, I would have also tried to reason with her. If I could, I would try and ask why, and other questions that would help me get a better feel of the quest before actually taking it. Based on that, I would either A) If some miracle occurs, and gives me a good reason, I would do it B) I would disagree, but still try and reason with her to stop it or C) Holy smite her where the sun don't shine, but then make it sunny with my paladin abilities:smallbiggrin:.

[Blue Ghost]

In this setting, are deities fallible? Is it possible for a good deity to make mistakes in judgment? If so, I would not treat my deity any differently than a mortal ruler that I serve. I'd attempt to reason with her, appeal to her holy nature and argue that what she is commanding is wrong. And I would give her a chance to explain why she is commanding this. If I fail to convince her, and she fails to give me sufficient justification, I would refuse to obey, and probably find a new deity afterward.

If, on the other hand, my deity is an infallible, perfect embodiment of Law and Good, then there would be no point arguing, though I would still seek a justification. In this case, the only two possibilities I see are that either (1) there is a legitimate reason why burning down an orphanage is just and correct in this situation, and a legitimate reason why my deity cannot explain it to me, or (2) this is not actually my deity I'm talking to. I cannot imagine a scenario where the first scenario is more likely than the second.

[Hingra0]

So this has actually became an issue for my 3.5 paladin of Balthazar. Balthazar himself defended to deliver a quest to my brother and I, my brother being a cleric of the same church. His quest was to eradicate a city, his reasoning is that the city has sat by too long without intervening (witch they are capable of) while the big bad has been gaining power. My issue with it is that the city isn't inherently evil and there are definitely innocents among them. So I'm not sure what I'm going to do or how this might affect my brother who can be a little more loose alignment wise.

[Psyren]

You should probably start a new thread for that question as this one is over a year old.

Not familiar with Balthazar but that's not something a Good deity would do.

[Eldonauran]

So this has actually became an issue for my 3.5 paladin of Balthazar. Balthazar himself defended to deliver a quest to my brother and I, my brother being a cleric of the same church. His quest was to eradicate a city, his reasoning is that the city has sat by too long without intervening (witch they are capable of) while the big bad has been gaining power. My issue with it is that the city isn't inherently evil and there are definitely innocents among them. So I'm not sure what I'm going to do or how this might affect my brother who can be a little more loose alignment wise.

Tough situation but you didn't play a Paladin to have it easy, did you? You do want is right. Let the Cleric perform his duties in eradicating the evil in the city. You do what a Paladin does. You protect the innocent in the city, even against your own brother, should it come to it. Hopefully, your brother will meet you halfway and you two can work together in purifying the city.

[Lord Raziere]

Easy Answer:
"No. you want that orphanage burned down, you have to go through me."
Steps in front of deity, draws sword, with back to the orphanage, no fear, no regrets.

[hamishspence]

Tough situation but you didn't play a Paladin to have it easy, did you? You do want is right. Let the Cleric perform his duties in eradicating the evil in the city.

The problem is - the city hasn't done anything evil - it's just "failed to do the good act of Acting Against the Big Bad".

The description also says "eradicate the city" not "eradicate the evil in the city".


This is the "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" ethic taken to extreme lengths -

"if you won't fight the Big Bad alongside us when we demand it, the "Forces of Good" will destroy you utterly."

Which does not sound Good at all.

[GrayDeath]

Nope, that sounds almost perfectly Lawful Evil to me.

So let me reiterate Words of Wisdom:

First Action: Detect Evil on balthazar.

if that does not work, or I do have an ABSOLUTE way of identifying him, ask why.

If he offers a PERFECT answer I might consider doing it. But only after thinking long and hard about anything that might screw my perceptions.

If not, I draw my Holy Avenger and start telling this supposedly (G)good God what an EVIL thing he is demanding, and offering him one chance to step back and atone. ONE.
Before smiting him.

[Anxe]

If I were playing a Paladin in that situation I would burn down the orphanage. I would rationalize it by saying it is a test of my obedience or that one of the orphans will grow up to oppose Arete and I have to stop that now before it gets worse. Such preemptive action seems counter to my own understanding of Arete, but whatever.

I think an important distinction is that this is what my Paladin of Arete character would do. I'm not sure I would do the same thing if I were presented with such a choice as I'm not a holy warrior bringing order to a hostile world.

[Eldonauran]

The problem is - the city hasn't done anything evil - it's just "failed to do the good act of Acting Against the Big Bad".

The description also says "eradicate the city" not "eradicate the evil in the city".

Then your decision is a simple one, even if the task itself is hard. You protect the innocent in the city, even if it means standing up against your own brother. Your oath of the Paladin (and to those forces of Law and Good) supersedes any oaths to anything else, including deities. They might be your Patron but they are NOT the source of your power. The very forces of Good and Law fuel your abilities and it is by the path you walk that you wield them.