Mordheim City of the Damned

[Spacewolf]

So a quick search shows that the last thread for this was long enough ago I'd probably get in trouble for rezing it, so here's a new one.

So has anyone played this game from my understanding it came out of early access not to long ago and I recently picked it up, so far I've played a Chaos Cultist Warband and a Skaven pack. I have to say I think the Skaven have a play style that suits me better with their high damage, high speed as opposed to Chaos High HP, low speed with some spells. I am noticing a slight split now I'm reaching the point where 1000 points counts as a normal match, before this I was kicking ass as the Skaven but struggling as Chaos, after this I was doing better as Chaos but worse as Skaven (Still usually winning but rarely cleanly). That could be because I lost my Lvl 5 gutterrunner the first time he was downed and I accidentally fired the wrong Clan rat as well which put me behind, or because the Chaos leader is trash early on but gets better once you get some spells on him. (I'm also not really a fan of spells in general, since I don't want to add yet more RNG to the game.)

I haven't played on-line yet has anyone else tried it out? I don't really want to get pounded into the ground by someone with thousands of hours considering how painful the game makes it to retreat. So I will probably stick to single player.

Anyway that's about it for my general thoughts I'd like to hear if anyone has a different opinion or tips for getting better.

[TheSummoner]

The game is pretty unforgiving. I've only played as the human mercenaries so far and usually ended up restarting the campaign due to overly crippling injuries on my captain.

The big takeaway I've gotten is to get your defensive skills early. For each character, decide if they're going to rely on dodging or parrying for damage avoidance and get the skills that will allow them to do that before worry about offensive or utility skills.

On my current attempt, I'm experimenting with a wolf priest. I imagine his spells will make dealing with daemons (and to a lesser extent, impressives) much less of a problem.

[LCP]

I was put off during the early access phase by the extremely long loading times, but very recently I tried it again and they seem to have been optimised a little better - my poor old laptop can just about handle it now, and I've been getting into the game with a skaven warband. Haven't tried multiplayer yet but it's on my list of things to do - there is an "exhibition match" mode with no permanent repercussions so that you can dip your toe in without risking a permanent crippling of your warband. Even then though I'm slightly worried that getting slaughtered by an anonymous randomer could be a negative experience, so I'm going through all the single-player stuff first.

I definitely find life much easier at high levels than it was at low - I think more defensive skills and larger HP pools make things more forgiving. I also find Cult of the Possessed to be my most hated opponent - I think possibly because late-game Possessed warbands have so many mutations.

My main gripe with the game is that the single-player replayability seems pretty low even before I've finished the campaign. I've got 4 kinds of opposing warband to face, with 3 kinds of mission on 8 possible maps (although the procedural variation on the basic map templates does keep things fresh to a certain extent), and I always know that the opposing warband will mirror my warband composition slot for slot. It seems like if the dev team had diverted some of the effort they put into littering the city with random traps into boosting the variation a bit (more types of mission, allow AI warbands to outnumber you or be outnumbered, or choose different slots - I don't use an Impressive but I would like the opportunity to fight them from time to time) then the game would still be surprising you much further into the campaign. At the very least it seems like it would be easy enough to unlock the unique campaign mission maps and add them to the standard rotation after you've completed that campaign mission. Right now it seems like the city of Mordheim is 50% Merchant's Quarter and 50% Noble's Quarter.

Of course the selection of warbands is a big part of that, but I understand that with a small team they had to keep things focused. Witch Hunters are apparently coming as a DLC so I look forward to that.

I'd also like it if they put a little more "RPG" in "tactical RPG". Right now there's the campaign missions, and then there's regular missions which are pretty much pure grind. I assume not everyone in the city of the damned is trying to kill each other in team-based battles every hour of every day - I'd like it if there were some non-combat locations I could visit or NPCs to interact with. Then again that's probably a big ask in terms of development resources.

The best thing I have to say about the game is that the maps are gorgeous. They really have the atmosphere down.

[TheSummoner]

Speaking of gripes with the single player campaign and the amount of RPG in the game, I'm a bit disappointed plot of the story missions... Atleast for the mercenary campaign.

The story seems to be nothing more than "Complete random task that will somehow help Barnon von Leitdorfer with nothing tying the tasks together beyond that." I know a major aspect (and part of the appeal) of the setting is the fact that that your guys are just one group of many for you to customize as you like, but they could've still had an overarching plot for the story missions without dictating anything about the player's warband. Maybe a chaos warband is trying to summon a greater daemon. Maybe the skaven have uncovered something far more dangerous (and valuable) than wyrdstone in the ruins of the city. Something to tie the missions together. Maybe the other warband's plotlines are better, but the mercenary campaign just seems really disconnected.

[LCP]

The Skaven campaign seems to be pretty uniformly about nicking stuff. I can't see an overarching thread but I can admire Fylch Sharptail for his consistency.

"Fylch has new task-mission from Murderlord"
"do you want me to steal a thing"
"YOU MUST TAKE-STEAL A THING-THING"

[snowblizz]

Speaking of gripes with the single player campaign and the amount of RPG in the game, I'm a bit disappointed plot of the story missions... Atleast for the mercenary campaign.

The story seems to be nothing more than "Complete random task that will somehow help Barnon von Leitdorfer with nothing tying the tasks together beyond that." I know a major aspect (and part of the appeal) of the setting is the fact that that your guys are just one group of many for you to customize as you like, but they could've still had an overarching plot for the story missions without dictating anything about the player's warband. Maybe a chaos warband is trying to summon a greater daemon. Maybe the skaven have uncovered something far more dangerous (and valuable) than wyrdstone in the ruins of the city. Something to tie the missions together. Maybe the other warband's plotlines are better, but the mercenary campaign just seems really disconnected.
I believe that comes from the original table top game's limited background (massive though it is in volume, has no actual plot).
Chaos palyers *are* actually trying to summon an entity known as the Shadow Lord, that's why they collect wyrdstone to power his manifestation. For Skaven *nothing*(nothing-nothing!) is more precious-valuable than warpstone. And ofc the human factions are all glorified thiefs. In that sense stealing the stuff is fairly onsistent as plot, I think what you are asking for is something interesting, but since all overarching objectives are fetch quests I can see why it's not developed. Also would require you to delve more into what is now an entirely defunct background since GW shafted Warhammer for their new Age of Sigmar setting.



My main gripe with the game is that the single-player replayability seems pretty low even before I've finished the campaign. I've got 4 kinds of opposing warband to face, with 3 kinds of mission on 8 possible maps (although the procedural variation on the basic map templates does keep things fresh to a certain extent), and I always know that the opposing warband will mirror my warband composition slot for slot. It seems like if the dev team had diverted some of the effort they put into littering the city with random traps into boosting the variation a bit (more types of mission, allow AI warbands to outnumber you or be outnumbered, or choose different slots - I don't use an Impressive but I would like the opportunity to fight them from time to time) then the game would still be surprising you much further into the campaign.
It doesn't necessarily mirror you exacly now it seemed. I have a friend (two acutally) who played this a lot so I've seen a fair bit. And he definitely met impressives without having some, or when brining his own didn't always meet one. However since it "point matches" you I think it's fairly easily that it generates one if you also brought one (because there are only so many slots and so much stuff you can stuff on other models).


At the very least it seems like it would be easy enough to unlock the unique campaign mission maps and add them to the standard rotation after you've completed that campaign mission. Right now it seems like the city of Mordheim is 50% Merchant's Quarter and 50% Noble's Quarter.
That's kinda how it felt from watching the game. They should probably work more on that IMNSHO. The hilariously annoying thing where you could let an impressive climb up on something, but there was no spot for an impressive climbing down (no, not even the spot he climed up) could do with some work e.g.
And would love it if in the future one could mod the units, like in the table-top version you could convert your models. (I don't want 2 Rat ogres to look the same)



I'd also like it if they put a little more "RPG" in "tactical RPG". Right now there's the campaign missions, and then there's regular missions which are pretty much pure grind. I assume not everyone in the city of the damned is trying to kill each other in team-based battles every hour of every day - I'd like it if there were some non-combat locations I could visit or NPCs to interact with. Then again that's probably a big ask in terms of development resources. Actually pretty much everyone is. Do they really sell it with a RPG appelation? Because the table top version is definitely not that. Any such elements would come from the interaction of it's players. Unsurprisingly when the creators ran the games it was much more role-playing than when the average gamers played it in my experience.


I'm waiting a bit more for this game to develop, see what factions and stuff become DLC and if there will come some kind of deal on that stuff later on. Becasue I smell vast amounts of additional DLC being sold in the future. But with 2 friends playing it's getting very interesting to multiplayer...

[TheSummoner]

I believe that comes from the original table top game's limited background (massive though it is in volume, has no actual plot).
Chaos palyers *are* actually trying to summon an entity known as the Shadow Lord, that's why they collect wyrdstone to power his manifestation. For Skaven *nothing*(nothing-nothing!) is more precious-valuable than warpstone. And ofc the human factions are all glorified thiefs. In that sense stealing the stuff is fairly onsistent as plot, I think what you are asking for is something interesting, but since all overarching objectives are fetch quests I can see why it's not developed. Also would require you to delve more into what is now an entirely defunct background since GW shafted Warhammer for their new Age of Sigmar setting.

And for a tabletop game, that's absolutely fine. The GM (presumably, I've never played tabletop Mordheim so I could be wrong) is supposed to come up with plotlines, stories, and challenges to keep things more interesting and varied than just collecting magic rocks. In a video game adaptation, there is no GM to do that, so the devs should've filled in for that role themselves for the campaign.

To use one of your own examples... Ok, so the Cult of the Posessed want to summon the Shadow Lord. There is a particular faction of Sisters of Sigmar who become quite troublesome for your warband in their attempts to do so. The first story mission could involve going after a large deposit of wyrdstone or some sort of magical artifact only to ambushed by the Sisters. This could introduce you to your campaign's antagonist faction. The final mission could be wiping out this faction in the ruins of some temple under their control. Of course, it wouldn't all be Chaos vs Sisters for the entire campaign, but each mission would somehow contribute to the overall goal of defeating that group of Sisters... Perhaps one mission you pit them against a group of mercenaries by slaughtering part of the group and making it look like the Sisters did it. Another could involve trying to learn information that will help against them from the Skaven who inevitably backstab you.

Collecting the wyrdstone is part of your faction's overall goal, but it isn't a storyline. It's more of a plot element than a plot itself if that makes sense... No matter how much wyrdstone you collect, Clan Eshin will never be satisfied, Siegfried isn't becoming the Emperor, the Shadowlord isn't getting summoned, and the Sisters are going to get taken over by the Lahmians. It's great as a backdrop to the setting, but it doesn't work well as the campaign itself.

[Spacewolf]

I don't really mind the maps to much it sort of gives the feeling of being a small scale street gang, since that's what you are after all, making the story maps playable wouldn't really work either since they give quite an advantage to one side or the other depending on who's attacking and who is defending.

I think more variation within the warbands and more warbands would be the best thing to provide long levity, possibly with some sort of map effect to spice up the games. (Rain that reduces visibility or warp rain that causes damage if you end your turn outside a building. That sort of thing.) Some sort of fluffy options for how to train your warband would be cool as well, Chaos could sacrifice peolpe, skaven could eat their wounded, etc.

[snowblizz]

And for a tabletop game, that's absolutely fine. The GM (presumably, I've never played tabletop Mordheim so I could be wrong) is supposed to come up with plotlines, stories, and challenges to keep things more interesting and varied than just collecting magic rocks. In a video game adaptation, there is no GM to do that, so the devs should've filled in for that role themselves for the campaign.
There's no GM. It's a 2 player game, a miniature skirmish game. There was a limited numebr of scenarios available "in the box" I think 6 so you could randomize with a d6 (the only dice used in the game). Any story did only exist in so far as you had people in a group playing against each other who would collectively create story, which is what the developers did when they played. Whether ppl did varied, and e.g. pick-up gaming at stores or tournaments would generally not (beyond that you would keep stuff happening to your warband, or not if you were a cheeky git.)

I'm just mentioning this as an explanation of why I think the game is as it is currently. They have tried to do a fairly straight adaptation of the table-top game to the computer being fairly true to bring the atmosphere and the core idea over. Essentially take the multiplayer version of the game, that's basically the table-top game. The rules are different in the computer game (luckily!) but that's the closest you get how the original worked.

I agree with the premise it sounds like it needs more plot. Since it works very differently as a single player game. And that's a weakness I'm sure, because the table-top game needed a setting, while a cmapaign needs a plot. Something I've argued endlessly about in relation to the table-top version, which by many was treated liek it was an ongoing story and not a fixed setting for your own stories to take place. Basically, there is a reason, it's not good, but AFAICT it's probably deliberate.

Oh and for the record, the Shadow Lord was in fact able to use the wyrdstone to "escape". This "idea" was used later on in the game the table-top Mordheim descends from (it was essentialyl a spin-off).

[LCP]

Any story did only exist in so far as you had people in a group playing against each other who would collectively create story, which is what the developers did when they played.

That's exactly it though - with multiple players in a continuing campaign, the story is emergent (even if it's just "those guys keep beating us up! We hate those guys!"). With no league framework for multiplayer and no persistent enemies in single-player I think COTD falls short of even that mark as far as narrative play goes - and I think if you're going to bother with things like tracking persistent injuries on specific warriors then narrative play has to be fairly important.


It doesn't necessarily mirror you exacly now it seemed. I have a friend (two acutally) who played this a lot so I've seen a fair bit. And he definitely met impressives without having some, or when brining his own didn't always meet one.

The only Impressives I've met while playing single player have been neutral-affiliated Daemons. As far as I can tell from checking around online, single-player skirmishes the opposing warband will match you slot for slot (i.e. same number of heroes, same number of henchmen, same number of impressives).


making the story maps playable wouldn't really work either since they give quite an advantage to one side or the other depending on who's attacking and who is defending.

There is already a massive asymmetry in the deployment types offered on the regular maps (you are scattered! everyone dies turn 1!) so I don't think that's a huge issue - but I'd say most of the story maps do have an axis of symmetry somewhere.

Wishlisting beyond "more warbands", I think the overmap is the obvious tool they could use to help the game tell more of a story. Right now it is effectively a pretty-looking list of available missions. You can do a lot more with a map than that - you can show how the warband's territory evolves and grows, you can track persistent rival warbands with characters you'll come to know and despise, you can give extra meaning to the different regions of the city beyond "I will be playing on one of these 4 maps". But I think those kind of changes are probably more of a Mordheim COTD 2 thing than a DLC thing so I'm not holding my breath. I think the devs have publicly stated that they're waiting to see how well this game does before they commit to the full scope of DLC warbands etc.


Anyhoo, seems a few people here play it - does anyone want to try out a friendly online match or two some time?

[TheSummoner]

I'd certainly be up for it, but I'm lacking a decently leveled warband at the moment. Once I've had a chance to get one off the ground, sure.

[LCP]

We could start a GITP Mordheim group with new warbands from scratch. Seems like it would be the simplest way.

EDIT: Just played the Alluress mission in the campaign - 4 Daemonettes + one resurrecting uber-Daemonette is not fun. Took me two tries and cost me my ace Poison Wind Globadier (lost a leg and a strategy point - he's no use to me now). The first try tanked my warband rating by about 50%.

and then the boxes Fylch asked me to steal didn't even have anything in them

what the **** Fylch

[Spacewolf]

Which mission is that? I'm up to Act 2 mission one in the Skaven camp so I assume it will be one of the next ones.

Yea I wouldn't mind trying out multi with a new warband.

[Eldan]

They could have at least included more of the missions from the tabletop game.

The tabletop game was actually massively expanded over the years. From supplements and white dwarf, you get another dozen warbands. The undead are still sorely missing and probably no one wants to see the damn elves (yes, sure. ****ing longbows. Exactly what the game needed), but the dwarf caravan was a fun band, or the Circus of Chaos. Or the Greenskins.

We did have a two-year campaign, once. Rather loosely organized by a GM: we had a story event every two months, where he would bring up a special mission and then we had the option of playing up to three "official" games between story missions and record the results for the campaign on sheets.

The story mission were quite brutal, too. There was the flooded streets one, that was fun. Turn one, all ground level is difficult terrain, halving movement. Turn two, anyone still on the ground needs to make strength checks to move. Turn three, everyone still on the ground drowns. Turn four, it reaches the first building level and giant rats begin to swarm up the walls to escape the water. That was fun.

Or the wizard's tower. There's a magical artefact in the middle of the map. It's guarded by monsters. And real proper monsters, too, not just rat ogres. There was a gigantic chimera, a basilisk a few others. A lot of fun to try and lure them towards enemy warbands.

[TheSummoner]

We could start a GITP Mordheim group with new warbands from scratch. Seems like it would be the simplest way.

I'm in. If we're doing new warbands we should keep the permanent injuries. Adds a bit more challenge. It's not just about winning, you've got to keep your guys in fighting shape too!

That said, new warband is a bit limiting (no warlock or champion for mercs for example), so if all goes well maybe we could do a higher level thing further down the line.


EDIT: Just played the Alluress mission in the campaign - 4 Daemonettes + one resurrecting uber-Daemonette is not fun. Took me two tries and cost me my ace Poison Wind Globadier (lost a leg and a strategy point - he's no use to me now). The first try tanked my warband rating by about 50%.

and then the boxes Fylch asked me to steal didn't even have anything in them

what the **** Fylch

Life is cheap in Mordheim. Skaven life is cheap in general :smalltongue:


Which mission is that? I'm up to Act 2 mission one in the Skaven camp so I assume it will be one of the next ones.

Mercenaries have a similar campaign from what I've heard. It's 2-3 for them.

Furthest I've made it is 2-1 so I can't comment on difficulty or strategy for that level.


Stuff

That sounds crazy in the most awesome way possible.

[Maethirion]

If a GitP group is going to happen for this game, I'd be keen to be involved as well. I got put off during the beta because of the long loading times as well, so I'm pleased to hear that's been fixed. I'll have to give it another go.

[LCP]

Which mission is that? I'm up to Act 2 mission one in the Skaven camp so I assume it will be one of the next ones.

2-3 I think. It's pretty deadly - you need to kill a fairly mean boss, then she immediately resurrects and you need to run around finding 5 mcguffins to stop her doing so indefinitely. Even the second time round when I knew where everything was I took fairly heavy casualties.



On GITP multiplayer - how should we do this then? New warbands for everyone, only play within the group would keep things simple - but AFAIK there's no league/group structure I'm aware of that we could use to keep track/make sure people don't go and grind against the AI. Guess we rely on the honour system?

[TheSummoner]

Honor system would be simplest. If we're doing low level, new warbands it should be fairly obvious if someone starts using skills they shouldn't have yet or have unusually high wounds/sp/op

[LCP]

Well I was thinking we would let the warbands level up over time through multiplayer skirmishes only. Having to create a new warband from scratch every single game could get a bit tedious.

Anyway, have created a steam group:

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/gitpmordheim

Message me for an invite (my steam ID is "Pippington").

[LCP]

So, nobody still interested in this? I haven't received any messages.