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View Full Version : DM Help Finding hidden places in an outdoor Pointcrawl



Yora
2016-05-15, 01:21 PM
Pointcrawl (http://hillcantons.blogspot.de/2012/01/crawling-without-hexes-pointcrawl.html) is a lot like Hexcrawl, with the important difference that not every location is connected to six other locations. Instead of the whole world being covered in hexes, you only have important and interesting locations that are Points on the map, which are connected to each other with paths (or roads, rivers, mountain passes, canyons, ...) It's a great approach if you're lazy like me and tend to skip the parts of the adventure where nothing interesting happens to get quickly to the good parts.

I've been doing all my dungeons like that for years (instead of on a square-map) and it's working great. Doors and corridors mean that it's always obvious where the connecting paths between areas are and there's just no way not to follow them.

But when you apply the system outdoors, not all connecting paths are obvious roads and rivers that let the players simply say "Hey, let's check out what's on the other end". Let's say the player's know that there's a hidden bandit camp in the forest or a dragon's lair in the mountains, but they don't know exactly where it is. Finding the forest or the mountains is easy.Those are huge, visible from a distance, and even a rough map will let you find them when traveling through the wilderness.
If the destination is a big castle that can be seen from miles away, being in the general area is good enough. But when it's just a small hole in a hill, how could the party find it?

Actually, that's a problem for hexcrawl as well. A 6 mile hex is still a huge area to hide a door.

When players don't have accurate directions to lead to a location and it's not easily visible from afar, how can PCs find locations in the wilderness in a way that comes across as somewhat plausible?

Kol Korran
2016-05-16, 12:52 AM
Hmmmm... an interesting question. I have a few ideas:
1. You can't find it unless you know of it: Lets say you're looking for an invisible/ secret door, or a very specific tree/ stone/ whatever, that may led to the portal and such. Unless you got more specific data, you can't find it. With these kind of approach, part of the adventure will focus upon gaining that specific info: Finding the one or few person that know of it, the tome in which a more detailed description lies, and more. This can be somewhat more railroady, but with sufficient clues, and allowing for players ingenuity to overcome this obstacle, it can be fun.

Using a smaller setting map
Basically, for locals that have a certain hidden place, you can put on a simple map of the specific region, that the party can use for exploration, but only if they know there is a specific secret there (Not for every hex/ Point of interest). It can be a miniature "point"s map, with a few big locals to explore. Say the party finally reaches the Lonely Mountain, and they seek the secret entrance to Smaug's lair. You put on a simple map of the mountain, with several areas: The ruins of the human settlement, the east slopes, west slopes, the lake, the opening, the high slopes, and so on... The party can try to explore these, using several methods:

2. A mystery: You can treat it like a mystery, and drop hints that help focus more and more. You pepper various hints, either before coming to the exploration local, or within/ it's proximity. For example: The party comes due to an old text/ NPC who said "In the Howling Peaks, between faces three, where Yorgen once sang to the beauty of water, you shall find the path, when the times turn red, by singing his lament.": The party gets to the region, and using the mini map for the specific local, can start looking for the clues they've got, or more clues within the sites- looking for the "faces" (These might be cliff faces, or maybe old statues of giants/ heroes) They can try and make an area between the faces, to narrow their search. Then they might seek a place of beauty, or legend of this Yorgen and what he sang about, or comb any bodies of water for either beautiful places, or maybe water creatures (Fey?), or ask a nearby village/ local population. They can try to figure out "Time turns red" by either using blood, or the setting sun, or maybe arise conflict or whatever..."

Some such clues or player understanding might "open up/ unlock" more specific locals on the minimap, that weren't seen before. (Finding a more hidden grove/ revine and such)

The idea is to treat it as mystery, with the 3 clues rules, and more. Note that if in a sandbox, some of the clues might be missing, and it's quite possible for the party NOT to find the local.

3. Using skills/ game mechanics:
Depending on the system, the party might use skills or other game mechanics to explore: Perception/ Search checks, various knowledge skills (History, nature, geography, religion, local and more). They might use various tools/ equipment/ divination magic and more.

4. Expend resources such as money, time, and such:
"Bloody hell! Where is that hidden door! We got to find it, I say we comb the place, inch by buggery inch, hire people, we stay here till we find it!"

Basically the party takes a more thorough approach, and uses some resources to help them find the secret. This work only for certain campaigns, and usually when the use of the resoruce is significant enough. Some systems may have mechanics for that (Say the "take 20" mechanics in D&D and such, or Pathfinder's hex exploration rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/exploration-and-movement-sandbox).

Combine the approaches
Depending on how secret the object of the search is, it may require different approaches to find it. I haven't tried yet, but in my attempt for a hex crawl, I intend for each hex to have several layers of exploration. In each hex, I list what can be found by layers, (Basically my points of interest)with corresponding DCs (If needed), and time to explore. Not every hex has to have multiple layers. Simple travel hexes might only have 1 layer, or 2 layers with no hidden findings:
1. "Walking through it":
What you see by just traversing the hex. This includes the hex terrain, and any very prominent features in it. (You're in rocky barren hills, There is a big hill near the north of the hex, higher than most. Might be some sort of structure on it".

2. "Exploration findings":
Very similar to the exploration suggested by the Pathfinder rules, wit the emphasis that these can be found by spending time/ resources in the area, and that they don't require any highly specialized info to find. (No invisible doors, pathways that require a special spell/ ritual, and so on). Basically, what you can find by combing the area. A few rule changes for that:
- Some things will be obvious enough to find (The hill does have a structure upon it- the ruins of some old fort. There is a small pond with a groove near by, and what looks like a series of caves in the hills to the south east.) This gives initial points of interest.

- The players may be required to roll a perception check/ other relevant skill checks to aid and more, to find more hidden points. (I write that there is a secret observation post of the gnolls in the west hills, DC 20 to find, and that there are secret catacombs of the people who belinged to the ruins, further down DC 18. A player might say "Hey, I think these are the ruins of the X people, I'd like to roll Knowledge history, to try and remember anything about them" which can add to finding the catacombs).

- Skills, clues ("The ranger told us that the gnolls often have secret outposts on the rims of their territory, I'd like to keep a look for them!"), Magic ("I'd like to use the Y spell to help me find unnatural structures) and more can all be used to find stuff. (either granting modifiers to the search, helping narrow down resources spent such as time, or just "opening up" more points of interest. Something a bit like this? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0691.html) Or this? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0692.html) :smallwink: For players who are into the Exploration aesthetics, (Possibly also Challenge, but less so), finding something, using their wits, resources and such, can be very satisfying. Often the time spent heightens the feeling of achievement.

- You can easily add mystery into this as well. Say the players know some hints. These can be used by players to help them (Say, that in the example above, the players realize that "Between faces" means a triangle made by three old statues of past figures. It can shorten the time, and maybe grant some bonuses, even if they don't' get the entire riddle), or if they are clever enough, it might circumnavigate the more "traditional/ skill and resource search" entirely! ("Hey, I go it! We should look for a tree with these features, that should be located in that place!") This can also be a way of introducing mysteries/ puzzles as an alternative soultion to a problem- The players do not depend on it. If they don't solve it,they can try other approaches, which may be more costly, but solvign the mystery/ riddle, does reward them nicely!

3. The very well hidden:
Some things I rule cannot be simply found just by searching for them, but require some extra knowledge (Not in the form of just skills checks, but rather campaign specific info), in order to find. arguably, the players might be ingenious/ lucky enough to think/ stumble upon another solution, but that should be the rare case. Just "combing through a hex/ a point of interest" shoudl yield these. Note that these locations should be rare, and should have sufficient clues in the settings to enable finding them. Examples can include a portal that only opens at a specific time, or under specific conditions and more, a very well crafted secret entrance (Arguably this one might just have a very high DC to find, and that may be possible using enough resources/ search boosts, but again it signifies an extreme effort without prior knowledge), an invisible place that can only be seen by a specific race/ person/ lineage/ or so, and more...

Finding these locations, and the clues that lead to them, can easily be the focus of an adventure/ series of adventure. For an exploration enthusiastic, this is a HUGE thrill!

--------------------------------------

These at least are my ideas, though I'd love to hear some more! I'll keep an eye on this! :smallwink:

Yora
2016-05-16, 05:56 AM
This is very similar to the idea I had while falling asleep.

And the secret door to the Lonely Mountain is a perfect example for the kind of situation I was talking about. :smallbiggrin:

My (simple) idea is to make two points on the point map. One for "Dragon's Valley" and one for "Dragon's Lair". The dragon's valley can be reached by anyone who follows a river or crosses a mountain pass that leads to it. You can even end up there by accident without meaning to look for it. And you can even find it with only very general directions of where it is. "Three days' travel north and then going between the two mountains" is good enough.
The dragon's lair can only be found if you have very accurate directions that tell you exactly how to find it. But alternatively, the players can also start searching the valley are for trails or other clues that could provide them with the required directions. I think in my own game, I would probably make a roll for every hour of searching with various chances for "nothing", "clue", and "random encounter". If they keep looking around long enough and keep making search checks, eventually they will have enough clues to head for the hidden dragon's lair area. It's only a question of how much time they are willing to spend there, how long their supplies last, and how much of a toll the random encounters take on them.

This is a rather narrative approach that will get the story going smoothly, and not something meant to be very realistic. When everyone is excited to get to the dragons lair, I don't feel like doing an elaborate exploration minigame that might take a good amount of time. But it should provide some sense of the PCs searching for hours until they discover a trail to follow, while being relatively quick and painless.

Kol Korran
2016-05-16, 07:40 AM
This is very similar to the idea I had while falling asleep.

And the secret door to the Lonely Mountain is a perfect example for the kind of situation I was talking about. :smallbiggrin:

My (simple) idea is to make two points on the point map. One for "Dragon's Valley" and one for "Dragon's Lair". The dragon's valley can be reached by anyone who follows a river or crosses a mountain pass that leads to it. You can even end up there by accident without meaning to look for it. And you can even find it with only very general directions of where it is. "Three days' travel north and then going between the two mountains" is good enough.
The dragon's lair can only be found if you have very accurate directions that tell you exactly how to find it. But alternatively, the players can also start searching the valley are for trails or other clues that could provide them with the required directions. I think in my own game, I would probably make a roll for every hour of searching with various chances for "nothing", "clue", and "random encounter". If they keep looking around long enough and keep making search checks, eventually they will have enough clues to head for the hidden dragon's lair area. It's only a question of how much time they are willing to spend there, how long their supplies last, and how much of a toll the random encounters take on them.

This is a rather narrative approach that will get the story going smoothly, and not something meant to be very realistic. When everyone is excited to get to the dragons lair, I don't feel like doing an elaborate exploration minigame that might take a good amount of time. But it should provide some sense of the PCs searching for hours until they discover a trail to follow, while being relatively quick and painless.

Well, that highly depends on the game experience/ game esthetics you wish to convey, and what role do you put for finding the dragon's lair. If the idea is just to get to the local, and simulate looking for it, with the assumption that enough looking will find it, as I understand from your description, then yeah, it works, as this approach caters mostly for the Narrative esthetic (As you mentioned), and fairly assumes that you cannot NOT find the lair, as long as you spend enough time.

But say that finding the lair IS one of the major challenges you want to put. The dragon has been hiding for a long time, and does not like guests. Many who tried seeking it never did, and it may be essential to find it fast, for there is some other pressing matter (A time limit or such). In such a case, the method you put up may feel disappointing, for 2 main reasons:
1- Success is guaranteed (Other if there is a time pressure).
2- It doesn't seem that other then "lets keep looking", any of the players/ characters actions matter or alter the search. (Or at least, you haven't provided the search rules any frame work for their decisions to matter).

What is the challenge/ difficulty/ decision points that your system provides? As a gaming experience? If the purpose is to have them feel that they are searching for some time, yet the finding of the dragon's lair is assured, I suggest just narrating it, possibly running 1-2 relevant encounters/ scenes while searching (Guardians/ alarm systems the dragon put/ the riddle of the door/ other stuff). But just rolling dice for the sake of simulations feel a tad redundant for me, even for narativistic style.

This can be a killer for Challenge aesthetics players (Who need to learn that their actions can fail, and that it was by THEIR decisions that they succeeded or failed), and possibly also for exploration aesthetics seekers (Though for them, finding the mountain, and the info that the dragon's lair is in it, might be sufficient).

So I guess the preliminary question is: What type of game are using the exploration (Either hex crawl or points design) for? And the same question for finding hidden locals?

Yora
2016-05-16, 09:38 AM
I think I am getting what you're talking about.

Using some kind of search check instead of a regular random encounter check to take the abilities od the characters into account seems to be an obvious think to do. If players give their characters searching and tracking abilities, these are perfect situations where they can benefit from them.

But other than that, this doesn't feel to me like an important issue. Though in the past, my adventures always had an obvious forest trail that players just had to follow. So for me doing a few checks to see how much time passes and if there's random encounters before the destination is found looks already like a big step up. :smallbiggrin:

What kinds of decision points would you want to have during such searches for a hidden entrance? Is there anything else you could decide, other than keep searching or giving up?

Kol Korran
2016-05-17, 06:10 AM
What kinds of decision points would you want to have during such searches for a hidden entrance? Is there anything else you could decide, other than keep searching or giving up?

Well, that depends mostly on the type of question/ decision/ development the search is supposed to answer. I'll try using the "Search for the secret door to the dragon's lair on Lonely Mountain" as an example:

First, is there even a purpose to the search? Is there a question to be answered? Perhaps you game focus mostly on the interaction/ dealing with the dragon and it's lair, and less about finding the entrance. That is fine. But, if you do have a question/ development based on the search, than it regarding it can very much affect the design:
1. Can they even find it?
In this case, finding the lair isn't guaranteed. The party may have goals in the dragon's lair, but the story can progress if they fail to find it. The dragon won't be killed, and he'll help the enemy, or they won't get the dragon's advice, or they won't get the powerful item in it's hoard, or whatever. Failure IS an option.

In this case, the challenge/ decision points mostly revolve around either finding right clues/ solving the mystery of the hidden location, and/ or deciding on what resources shall be used, or even gathering those resources!

For example: As the party reaches lonely mountain, they realize it is big, and the entrance might be very, very well hidden. They might have a riddle ("When the last light of X month, hits the X... What the hell does that mean? Wait, if the sun sets in the west, maybe on the western side?") and need to use their wits, skills, and clues in the scene to solve it. Or, they could decide on what resources to use ("We can spend up to 9 days searching the place. So... We'll do it in a hustle, less sleep, we might get tired, but it'll be worth it. Also all magic users, use divination spells. Not the costly ones yet... We'll use those if we can't find it in 5 days. We might contact the nearby village to send help... That's a LOT of ground... But we're poor on funds...")

Mostly it falls on whether the hidden location can be found AT ALL, given their current info (This mostly pertains to locations that require specific info, rather than just combing the area, the last layer in my example), or how much effort are they willing to put into it (Stacking more and more modifiers to the search).

2. Can they find it in time?
In this example, the conflict and question hinders on a time constraint. While the previous question asked whether the location can be found, here it is assumed it WILL be found, but not necessarily in time, OR that another option to get into the lair is possible, and the hidden location grants an advantage, but is not necessary.

The challenges here are quite similar- solving a riddle/ mystery/ limited info, and what resources will the party use.

For example: The party reaches the mountain, and knows that the great gate to the dwarven hold is there, but it's probably way too obvious, and guarded. But... they know of a secret entrance. But the enemy will make haste here, and will be here in 3 days! They must deal with this before then. So... the party will try to find the secret entrance in their allotment of time, but if the can't- There's always the big gate. The difference is that they WILL get into the dragon's lair, but whether with an advantage or not, that's a different matter.

3. Can they find it before Bad Things (TM) happen?
Exploring has it's perils as well, and may well be dangerous! These need to be taken into account- Perhaps guardians/ hostiles, perhaps traps, perhaps terrain or magical hazards. In your example above, you've listed potential random encounters, which are a form of danger. But if they are just "speed bumps", then they are not that meaningful. If they do pose an ACTUAL danger, well, that forces conflict, and conflicts raises questions, and from that stem options...

The challenges/ decisions here are the classical Risk Vs. Benefit- What to risk, what to gain?

Some examples:
Upon reaching the lonely mountain, you set up it's "mini locals": The ruined human village, the big gate, the west slopes, the east slopes, and the high peaks. But not all is simple:
"Ok, we know the dragon has some kobolds roaming the place. Ranger told us their home is in the ruins. I'd wager the big gate has some trap or such the dragon put there. And the west slopes are hard to climb, the high peaks even more so... Yet we need more clues, and we need to think of how we do this... We can't possibly hope to face the dragon, so it mustn't get wind of us here! Got it?"

4. What to explore, from the given options?
This can be a subset of other questions, but basically for some reason, the party can't hope to explore everywhere. Due to some constraint, once they explore one/ some of the areas, some will not be available to them. This can be either due to an alarm system, or perhaps yet another time constraint, or whatever... This can be unplanned, and many time over cautious groups may put this decision forward, even if unplanned (My group sure does!)

As an example:
The party reaches Lonely Mountain. Suddenly Balin the wise says. "Well, we better choose carefully, cause:
- Once we get on the mountain, the cunning drake will learn of our whereabouts soon enough! Better act quick!
- We got only 1 day to find the entrance before the date it can be opened passes! We can only explore 2 areas!
- How long do you think we can bugger around, without those kobolds finding us? Bofur's stealth checks aren't that good! Better choose 1-2 areas at most. Too much of a risk otherwise!"

And so on...

There are probably many other possibilities. It all depends on the question you want to ask in the scene (Or that the players bring from their own accord), and the conflicts in place. And there doesn't even have to be a scene here. In the movie/ book they knew where the entrance was! The questions was the riddle of opening it (I guess... I never quite understood what was so damn interesting about that part... They just sat and waited...).