Advice for a huge griffon special mount ?

[HurinTheCursed]

Hello all,

Our L15 pallie was authorised to get a griffon special mount instead of his horse, with the added hit dice our DM even made it huge.

However, animals get no magic slots in our games unless the equipment is designed for animals (horseshoes, some collars...). What would you advice regarding the feat and equipment selection of the noble beast ?
The goal is to enhance to global effectiveness of the rider, ie increasing his survability and giving him more chances to charge or more to do when he cannot.

Feats:
- Power attack: with no weapon, the griffon should still manage +24 to hit.
- Snatch can be good to make an enemy useless and enables rake attacks, 1d8+5 each.
- Improved Snatch
- Rend lacks synergy with its prerequesite Snatch, an extra 2d6+15 is nice.
- Improved Multiattack seems a decent choice especially with Power attack or Snatch.
- Weapon focus claws not even half as good.
- A non abusive reading of Improved Rapidstrike leaves me unconvinced since claws attack only deal 1d6+5. 1-2 secondary attacks won't mix well with power attack but would help triggering rend. Would rake attacks be included ?
- Large and in charge seems pretty good to limit medium meleers and fleeing enemies (huge, STR 30 soon).
- Improved natural attacks seems weak for both attack (respectively +3.5 and +2 damage).
- Improved flight would allow to reach perfect flight.
- Air heritage, if allowed.
- Power Dive is an option but its only a weaker attack and making the guy prone, not much better than move + main attack. Btw, is it a single standard action or is a move action required as well to be performed ?
- Power climb
- Flyby attack
- Fleet of Foot is very very nice, but requires 2 dex increases and the useless Run feat.
- I'm not familiar enough with melee flyers to know how Wingover is needed with 80 feet movement and good manoverability.

Equipment:
- A Pectoral of maneuverability seems mandatory.
- A Bridle of ease, A&EG 79, should help with the taming.
- Animal Trainer’s Kit, A&EG 28 / CAdv 122, +2 every bit helps.
- Collar of Obedience, CAdv 132, +5 bonus
- Leash and Muzzle, Masterwork, A&EG 24, another +1.
- I believe we can manage to get an Amulet of mighty fists, but it prevents any further enchantment.
- A Necklace of natural attacks seems reasonable for the same reason but versatility makes it more expensive and I cannot think of any constant enchantment is worth the 30000 gold for 5 weapons which of 4 weak. Valorous ?
- He will likely get a +1 chainshirt (mithral breastplate at best) with maybe easy travel. Anything else useful ?
- Maybe a howdah from A&EG along with a war saddle ?
- A Pearl of Speech would be great to communicate with him.
- Shrink Collar (A&EG) for smaller indoor places.

Specific spells:
- Wings of Air
- Wings of Air, Greater
- Cloud Wings
- Magic Fang, Greater
- Sticky saddle
- War-Mount
- Golden Barding

[Gildedragon]

Pearl of speech. Griffon understands common already, having them able to communicate back at you is very useful. Slap on a +2 to int on it.

Anything that allows the griffon to shrink (for scouting)

Do not muzzle the griffon. It will make diplomacy with them harder. An 11hd griffon that got a bonus to int will be as smart as your average barbarian (6 int; 8 starting, -2 racial in exchange for +2 str). If one doesn't muzzle Krog, one ought'n't muzzle Griff.

[ShurikVch]

Anything that allows the griffon to shrink (for scouting)Shrink Collar (A&EG): make wearer Small (3' height, 60 lbs. weight), but all other attributes stay same; 10k gp

[DarkSoul]

There's more than one way to read Improved Rapidstrike? Seems pretty clear to me, what's the "abusive" reading? And no, the rake attack wouldn't be included. Going by the stat block you could only choose Improved Rapidstrike (claw). Rake doesn't have an attack roll so you wouldn't be able to choose it.



Snatch is nice for instant grapples, but the automatic damage only applies to small or smaller targets coming from a huge creature (-3 size categories). Improved Snatch would increase the auto-damage to medium creatures or smaller, which might be worth it.
Rend might be better than it looks, considering it doesn't say the claw attacks have to come from different claws. With Improved Rapidstrike and a high BAB, there's a good chance two claw attacks will hit in any given round. This would work with the claw or rake attacks because they're explicitly defined as extra claw attacks in the MM glossary. Rend also doesn't seem to be limited to one rend per round, so theoretically you could hit with both claws, rend, then grapple with the Snatch feat. You could also count rake as a successful claw attack (because it is, by the rules), hit with one more claw, rend again, then Snatch again. With a high BAB, Rend would technically trigger on multiple successful claw attacks from one claw via Improved Rapidstrike.
Power Attack is decent in general, but I think you'll want to keep the griffon's attack bonus up.
Large and In Charge is definitely something to think about.
Don't discount Flyby Attack. Limiting the opponent to attacks of opportunity from movement is a lot better than sitting there on its turn and eating a full attack.
In combination with Flyby Attack, Power Climb might be worth taking. Good maneuverability can ascend at any upward angle, and this feat doesn't cut your speed in half when you do it. You can literally drop 40 feet, attack, and ascend 40 feet vertically on the griffon. Every round.


Take a look at this thread (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=25.0) for some more ideas. One thing that's not mentioned there is the Sticky Saddle spell from the Spell Compendium. If you can have your saddle enchanted as a use-activated item with that spell, I think it'll definitely be worth the cost (likely 16k: paladin-only spell level 1 x paladin caster level 4 x 2,000 gold x 2 for duration measured in minutes/level, according to the DMG)

[HurinTheCursed]

These are good ideas indeed, thank you all.
My character is less mobile but it has 75 more hp, miss chance, 20' reach, knockback and soon combat reflexes rampaging bullrush, good saves, steadfast boots... Squishies hide behind him but the paladin doesn't. He often suffers of being isolated and targeted by multiple melee opponents if he remains in a reachable position.
This griffon is way more impressive and powerful than was the horse but secondary attacks are not that strong, he should not focus on damage but on allowing the rider to do damage and premain safe -> Control and Mobility.


Feats
- The griffon has 3 feats to pick, 2 others could be retrained (multiattack is already a good pick).
- I think of Snatch only as of an alternate way to get improved grab, small targets are way too rare to make the automatic part useful but rolling is ok without power attack. I'm not even sure the campaign has enough medium opponents to make improved Snatch worth it.
- Regarding rapidstrike, I've read diverse interpretation, some applying the improved version to a new pair, some not. Exemple in linked thread, Improved Rapidstrike: Every time you take this feat you can make four extra attacks per turn. With a +21(right)/+21(left) basis for claws, Rapidstrike would give +21(right)/+21(left)/+16(left) (+8.5 damage if it hits), and Improved rapidstrike will give +21(right)/+21(left)/+16(right)/+16(left)/+11(right) (+17 damage if both hit) ? It's how I understand it but I find the asymmetry odd.
- I had not seen how rapidstrike and rend could combine sweetly. The problem with rend is that you need snatch and power attack and won't use them if you want rend to succeed. And with at best a x1 ratio, power attack is not that great anyway.
- At the opposite, ride-by-attack and pounce make them both chargers but with opposite tactics.
- I believe the paladin player will prefer to use his Ride-by-attack to flyby attack if he can, which is part of what makes fleet of foot so attractive even if a bit redundant with heroic surge. But having both should keep him out of danger so that enemies concentrate on my way beefier character instead.
- Large and in charge deals with small agile flyers while power climb prevents charge every other turn from big clumsy baddies such as dragons.

Spells
- Sticky Saddle is nice, he will be able to cast it as a swift action.

Equipment
- I don't understand the pricing of the Gemstone of Fortification (3000/15000/35000) compared to a fortification armor +1 (4000/16000/36000), I expected (1000/9000/25000) but it might be worth it, even with a wizard to rent.

[ExLibrisMortis]

How about Martial Study (Douse the Flames) and Martial Stance (Absolute Steel)? There are other nice combinations, this one gets you a way to avoid AoOs and a 10' increase to speed.

[DarkSoul]

My interpretation of Improved Rapidstrike is that the extra attacks function just like iterative attacks for high BAB in PCs, effectively giving the creature a main hand and off hand attack, and that improved rapidstrike replaces the effect of the rapidstrike feat. For your example of a +21 attack bonus it would be +21/+16/+11/+6/+1 with one claw and +21 with the other. Having them split between the two attacks would make the feat more powerful, for example giving +21/+16/+11 with both claws.

Regarding rend, it's just additional damage that's tacked on when you hit with two claw attacks. Nothing says you can't roll the second claw's damage, then the rend damage, then roll the grapple check for snatch.

Also, the griffon going for a pin could provide a minimum 9 point AC penalty against the paladin's (or anyone else's) melee attacks against whatever it's got pinned, in addition to making it subject to precision damage. -4 AC for being pinned and -5 more for effective Dexterity score of 0. The AC penalty is much higher against anything with a notable Dex score.

[Fizban]

Improved Flight (Races of the Wild) is the best way to improve maneuverability and will jump you straight to Good, it basically breaks all the standard flying mounts wide open. Flyby attack is theoretically good but note that it does not protect you from AoOs like Spring Attack does (you need a bunch more to do that). A DM ruling is required to make Ride by Attack work in the first place, but assuming it does then you don't need Flyby Attack at all and Griffons are pouncers so they don't want to flyby anyway.

Alternatively, Hover gives you effectively Perfect maneuverability at half speed, while also creating a dust cloud at low altitudes for good or ill. It allows access to Wingstorm (Savage Species, before Draconomicon decided it was dragon only for no reason) which can foul arrows, clear fogs, and even flatten houses if you can get a size buff. Weather you're using Good maneuverability or Hovering, the Wingover feat becomes completely unnecessary: it's for people with poor and clumsy.

For speed increases you want Air Heritage (Planar Handbook) for +30' flight speed, as long as you're allowed to alter the starting feats (and get rid of Weapon Focus at the same time).

Power Climb is pretty good but shines a light on the inconsistencies in the flying mechanics (some things seem to assume flight is calculated horizontally with an elevation tag, while others seem to think it's counted as straight lines). Make sure you know how it's being run so you know what it actually does, and when using flight in general. It should also be abundantly clear that "straight line" does not allow retracing the line you just traveled since that would require turning (even if you could do with with successive move actions, Flyby Attack only gives you one move).

Power Attack isn't great for natural weapons but it's required for almost all the other feats. Improved Natural Attack is bad with the Griffon's small dice on everything but the bite. Large and in Charge is more important for controlling ground, not so important for a super fast flyer. Power Dive is Terrible. The Snatch/Rend line is good. Improved Unarmed Strike is always hilarious since you can add all your natural weapons on top of it anyway, making the unarmed+str attacks basically free damage.

If it's meant for support, you can use Intimidate, Intimidating Strike (PHB2) and Imperious Command (Drow of the Underdark) for some debuff/action denial. Take 5 ranks of Balance and hit up Complete Adventurer for the Nimble Charge skill trick instead of trying to get Fleet of Foot. Even with size reducing magic (based on old 3.0 versions of the spells) you can still have problems inside: Tunnel Fighting+Tunnel Riding helps your mount, but if the mount is learning feats it can just take Tunnel Fighting itself to squeeze without penalty. While we're in Races of Stone, if you can argue that bird feet are dexterous enough to throw rocks (watch a video or something), you can give it the Rock Throwing line (with a side of Brutal Throw from Complete Adventurer).

An Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 should be all you need. Investing heavily in the mount's attacks (or anything else really) is a bad idea unless you're actually making a pokemon trainer build, especially if your DM won't let mounts use normal magic items. Protective gear is more important but still not something you should burn all your money on, a wand of Golden Barding (Spell Compendium) at minimum, +2 Mithral Shirt barding would be better. The Paladin's own spells have a number of buffs including Shield Other, Magic Circle, and Draconic Might. Complete Champion has War-Mount for +2 enhancement on natural weapons (and 2 other spells that combo with it). Mounts and companions are a lot easier to keep alive/use in general when you're using mass buffs rather than relying on magic items on every PC. Note also that any spell the paladin casts can affect the mount via Share Spells, ignoring creature types and personal only limitations.

Your reading of the Pearl of Speech is the cheesy one, but if it works then sure. Otherwise it remains a reasonably intelligent creature with a face and dexterous forelimbs, capable of communicating plenty via gestures and possibly even learning to write with some skill points.

There is absolutely no need for training bonuses whatsoever since paladin mounts are literally called by magic as-is and don't need training, unless of course your game is running them differently.

A Howdah would most likely prevent anyone from charging on it because you're not mounted in a saddle, you're just standing on a moving platform.

Pinning. . . apparently got seriously buffed since the Rules Compendium decided it dropped dex to 0, that's insane. Keep in mind that you have to re-pin your target every round to maintain it: the "if you're pinning" stuff all makes it sound like it stays until broken, but the "pin an opponent' action explicitly only lasts for one round. Successive grapple checks are made based on iterative attack bonuses so you can deal a little damage after pinning them. If you want to use the rake attacks while grappling after the initial pounce, you have to attack with a single natural weapon (at -4) and then claim the free rakes, though it may be possible to then use your remaining iterative grapples to pin since you only spent one on the first natural weapon attack.

[HurinTheCursed]

@DarkSoul: OK, I understand your point better. I still don't get why the "but never more than four extra attacks".
- If it's based on BAB, since the minimum BAB for the feat is 15, which he'll reach one day, that means 3 iterative attacks hence the "two or more extra attacks". However, you get 1 + max 3 extra attacks at BAB20 so never 4 extra thus it's different from getting an iterative.
- Otherwise I see no limitation why it could ever be less than 1 + 4 extra except lack of targets.

- How does Douse the Flames recharge ?

- No way our paladin ends as a pokemon trainer, he is a reknown hero, has leadership, bears a major dragonlance and does way more damage than his griffon will.

- Improved Flight is great but I'm not sure perfect flight is needed (lacking experience once more). If good is enough, it'd be better to get a pectoral for the same effect since items slots are less scarce than feats, but the improved pectoral is out of reach financially. However, it seems going from good to perfect flight provides power climb as well as a few other benefits so power climb seems out. It is probably better than Absolute Steel in most situations as well.
If you have perfect flight and make a free turn, does it prevent charging ?

- Air heritage seems very nice but even for a creature called from another plan, I'm unsure it can be negociated by retraining.

- The paladin and the griffon cannot take all these skills, not class skill, not enough skill points. Funny though since my character has maxed intimidation and has Nimble Charge.

- Tunnel Fighting seems too situationnal, losing 4ac once in a while is bad but not worse countering with a feat.

- Golden Barding seems perfect, with high saves and protection from magic soon it should make the deal. Still a +1 armor would allow some enchantment and a crystal with the barding.

- For Pearl of speech, our druid can use it this way when he is transformed: could understand without and can speak with.

- OK, the howdah is removed then.

- The DM required some training, at least to behave with people other than his master and wear barding. Since a high level griffon is difficult to train for a paladin that has few skill points, material will be required (even if it is borrowed from the druid).

Thanks all again, options getting esier to evaluate.

[ExLibrisMortis]

How does Douse the Flames recharge ?
In principle, it's 1/encounter. It doesn't recharge in combat, you need a level in an initiator class for that. I'm thinking it can be used to escape the round after you did a pounce-charge on the BBEG, but it's also useful for helping the rogue flank (move around without AoO).

[Eisfalken]

However, animals get no magic slots in our games unless the equipment is designed for animals (horseshoes, some collars...). What would you advice regarding the feat and equipment selection of the noble beast ?

No magic slots? That's... kind of dumb. But he did give you a Huge mount, so that's something I guess.

If Miniatures Handbook is on the table, maybe consider grabbing (Greater) Powerful Charge? He may not get a lot of attacks while flying around, but you could make that one attack really hurt. It also helps stack up Improved Natural Attacks, because all of these are "effective size increases" to attacks. Size increases suck at first, but the more you stack them up, the more they start to pay off when a single size increase gives 2, 3, or even 4 extra dice of damage on a high-die attack. INA for bite will take it up to 3d6, Powerful Charge to 4d6, Greater Powerful Charge to 6d6. I think 6d6 + 150% Str bonus is pretty good.

Large and In Charge looks meh to me. 5 ft. isn't really anything that useful, and only the dippiest creatures would attack anything with natural attack reach without either bypassing AoOs somehow, or without a reach/range weapon themselves.

Power Dive actually isn't bad depending on what you use it for. It's basically an overrun that the target can't avoid; they have to match their Str/Dex against your griffon's Str (which is probably ridiculous already). Long as your griffon is better at not being tripped in return, then there are not any consequences to this feat. It does require a move action instead of a charge, but it does very respectable slam damage (2d6 + 150% Str bonus), and basically puts the target prone (making it easier to lay into them). This is what you use when you can't charge for some reason, but need to make a "hard" landing in a combat area. Mixing this with Power Climb is great; you can hard-land a target, dismount you and your buddies, then while you guys start plowing into the mooks, your griffon can get back up there and do whatever (take shelter on a high point to come back down as needed, target ranged attackers hitting the PCs, etc.).

No, you don't need Wingover once you get to those stats. But you'd be shocked how hard it is to get there for some creatures. Feats like Hover and Wingover are for the slow, clumsy guys to have a chance to do the aerial acrobatics without needing magic.

Okay, you do NOT need an animal trainer's kit. Griffons are intelligent; they may not be geniuses, but they have to be talked to. Diplomacy. No brindle of ease, no collar of obedience, no leash and muzzle. INTELLIGENT CREATURE. DIPLOMACY.

Necklace of natural attacks is basically the better option. Don't worry about those claws, they can't get good anyway. Get warning enhancement for that sweet initiative bonus. Definitely get transmuting the instant you can afford it; now your griffon can overcome DR. Maybe holy enhancement if you fight a lot of evil creatures, too. Ethreal reaver may be even more clutch: it's both ghost touch and your griffon can see invisibility. When you're feeling really sporting, speed is a good capstone for more attacks.

For armor, you want blueshine, possibly durable (for 500 gp, it's pretty good DM insurance against things trying to break that armor), greater blurring (permanent miss chance, however low, is clutch), death ward (it's only 1/day, but it's basically more insurance against bad stuff), fortification (any level is useful), speed, linked (very very nice if you get something with this as well; now you can issue telepathic commands to your griffon), healing (regular and greater versions, in case he gets too close to getting knocked out), ghost touch, roaring (excellent for a flying mount, negates normal ranged attacks and has untyped init bonus), basically any armor enhancement you would get yourself if you could fly and melee. Get an armor crystal of adaptation for endure elements, and whatever you need to proof against certain threats.

Actually... get yourself a masterwork exotic military saddle (for the Ride bonus), and you can also get a howdah for the other PCs it sit in; there's no actual rule against it, and makes a crude sense that the driver may need to sit closer to the head than if he's on the back. If you want to get really wild, there is another... interesting option. Get an exotic pack saddle instead of the howdah, and erect a portable hut on it for the PCs and all your gear to sit in. The DM may need to be wheedled on this one, but it's pretty cool to have a flying home.

Pearl of speech is okay, but upgrade to some kind of telepathy fast as you can afford to. Shrink collar isn't usable with the necklace of natural weapons, so be very careful deciding what you need: more combat ability for the times you can actually use the Huge creature, or more times to use him less effectively. Remember, dragons get big, too, and don't hide in nooks and crannies. If you get the collar, you are looking at using it for bringing big boy into the tavern with you, but if a real fight breaks out, he needs his good stuff.

Spells are whatever. Permanency greater magic fang for the bite at +5 if you can possibly convince the DM to get you contact with an NPC druid 20; if not, just settle for a permanent +1 to both bite and claws (which only takes a low-level druid that can cast the spell at all). Really, though, I'd worry more with permanent telepathic bond first; tactically, it's much better for coordinating certain ideas, and if you're ever knocked out, your griffon is at least smart enough to grab you and run for help.

Oh, check blood wind from Spell Compendium; ranged attack with natural weapons means never having to worry about AoOs.

You can't use golden barding with your mithral armor, because the spell creates actual barding (read the spell, it's not a force bonus or ever say that it stops incorporeal, the spell merely creates temporary armor that doesn't have penalties), it's not at all like mage armor or other spells that create force-type effects that simply surround the recipient, or magic vestment which gives an enhancement bonus to existing armor (well, or clothing, whatever). Sorry, but you definitely need the party to help with this one.

If there's a cleric in the party, and they take magic vestment pretty much every day, buy a pearl of power to regain 3rd level spells, then "pay" the cleric for the use of magic vestment on the griffon with the pearl. This is one reason I suggested you get greater blurring enhancement; it has a 20% chance to negate attacks outright, unless the opponent has true seeing or whatever. Also, look for anything to boost natural AC.

I wouldn't be too keen on making this thing a combat mook. If it you put it in a lot of combat, there's more chances for it to die there. Just my two coppers on that, is all. I'm not saying don't look to use it in combat, just be more keen on taking advantage of flight mobility to keep it away from attacks rather than needing butt-loads of AC to survive them. It's more expensive to juice up a big critter for combat than to just keep it out of danger.

[Fizban]

With it's multiple natural weapons, a Griffon's bite will only ever have x1 str. Meanwhile 4 claws and rakes with pounce will multiply all the str and flat bonuses, which is even better if you're pulling permanent high cl GMF. Powerful Charge for +3d6 at no penalty isn't bad, but further feats all have diminishing returns. Improved Unarmed Strike adds a good 3 more bonus multiplying attacks with 1d6 base each (and unlocks Improved Grapple, which can actually be used on things larger than medium).

Depending on how your DM builds and runs foes, Elusive Target is another good idea. Though some AC investment is always necessary you're never going to reach very high, which makes you vulnerable to Power Attack, which Elusive Target nullifies.

I don't see why he'd need "party help" with anything relating to barding. Just the tradeoff of cheaper+easier vs more power. Which brings up something that should have been asked by now: what is the actual budget? There's a world of difference between one character buying a couple items for their mount, and the entire party blowing half their cash on pimping their sweet new ride (which then dies anyway, leaving a pile of useless gear). And just how many HD is it ending up with anyway for that matter? Let us actually evaluate what's going on here:

Standard pal 15 with Griffon has +6HD, na=8, +3 str. It's also being advanced to huge as if it weren't a mount, for +8 str, -2 dex, +4 con, +3 na (giving it na=9, so mount status gives no improvement).

Total: 13 HD, 111 hp, 31 str, 13 dex, 20 con (and 9 int), AC 18, BAB +11, base melee +21, grapple +29. Feats: Iron Will, Multiattack, Weapon Focus (Bite), +2 more.

Thanks to the Huge buff attacks should be okay with some standard enhancement, but not spectacular. Against foes with DR you can settle for the massive penalties of putting them in a grapple. Note that many foes at CR 15+ have Greater Dispel Magic at will, so while permanent GMF is good it will probably get dispelled eventually. Defenses are swiss cheese thanks to the clause about paladin mount natural armor being a replacement rather than a bonus, and with only two feats that's not much to do. Improved Flight and Improved Multiattack are probably the easiest, or IF and Powerful Charge.

[HurinTheCursed]

Plenty of help again, thanks.

- Can someone explain the reasonning behind Improved Unarmed Strike please ? Having multiple iteratives seems huge, but I don't get how it could be applied to natural weapons. This trick is not even in "natural weapons & you".

- You could not know our rogue never needs to flank so he doesn't care about AoO. Douse the Flames kinda limited to begin with, once/combat limits its scope to that of a skill trick IMO.

- I believe the no magic slots come from the rules understanding (the druid plays that way) and the size increase is probably for the same reason. All in all, it's a decent deal and doesn't break the game in either way.

- Powerful charge with 3d6 gets a bit meaningful but with a lance-wielding paladin rider and a pouncing griffon, I believe there's no need to make more damage during the charge (for now at least). He'll be more interested in charging more often, being more dangerous when he cannot charge and increased survivability.

- If it is only a move action (which then allows an attack on the prone opponent), power dive may be better than I understood, but only with improved overrun otherwise it generates attacks of opportunity (at 20-30 dmg each, it takes its toll quickly). On a side note, snatched opponents also end prone. Does power dive work on flying targets ?

- The paladin is much better at diplomacy than handle animal, good news for him. Unlike the druid, no need to invest money then.

- Blood Wind is an interesting idea, but it lasts 1 round since the SpC update and is not on the paladin list, I'm not sure any L15 caster would be keen on spending a standard action for that.

- Elusive Target has requirements too steep for what they bring.

- By my calculations, the griffon should have
now: 13hd, 136hp, 19AC, bite +21(3d6+9) / claws +18(2*1d6+4) / rake +18(2*1d8+4), saves 13/9/7
later: 15hd, 157hp, 20AC, bite +24(3d6+10) / claws +21(2*1d6+5) / rake +21(2*1d8+5), saves 14/10/8

- The griffon is the paladin's special mount, he will go into combat because the paladin needs to go toe to toe to be useful. It flies, has more HP than most of the group, decent AC with armor or spells and mounted combat, good saves and improved evasion, soon spell resistance. Sure, he'll get targeted but he can handle more than the squishies.

- The Necklace of natural attacks would be worth enchanting only if a subset of natural attacks can be enchanted. For example, +1 for all natural attacks to bypass some DR but another enchantment only for the bite. Gold (steel in fact) is scarce in our setting.

- For the budget, the PCs are already low on equipment so for the griffon he can probably reach 10000 now to catch up, 30000 later. It means enchantments are limited, golden barding and war-mount allow great savings. One thing of note is that the setting allows exceptionnal quality items, masterwork can be added linearly up to +5 for an item of legend. The trouble is that I can't think of a weapon made to non-magically improve animal natural attacks (claw extenders would do it if they weren't from dragon mag).
That means DR is a problem as it is for most martials with multiple weapons but it's a sidekick, it's ok. The player has a more durable flying horse, he looks super cool and attacks are a nice bonus but manoverability and tactical feats may have more impact to reduce the % of ressources needed to complete each fight.

- Regarding feats, retraining should be allowed. it means 2 feats now, 2 to retrain and a last at the end.

[Fizban]

Improved Unarmed Strike has nothing to do with the natural weapons, rather it's adding the ability to make an iterative attack. When you do a full attack, you can make all your iterative attacks and then add on all your natural weapons at the same time (at -5, can't remember of the top of my head if Multiattack reduces that but I think it does). Monsters that can't wield weapons usually can't make iterative attacks, but taking Improved Unarmed Strike gives you one. So you'd charge, make your unarmed attacks like a big furry monk without class features, then make your natural weapons including the rake. I've talked it up as a cool idea because it is, but with the actual BAB you're working with you'll need a lot of buffs to make those iteratives land unless you're fighting foes with lower AC.

Both normal overrun attempts and Power Dive are standard actions. Power Dive has no restrictions on targets so you can use it on flyers no problem. Good catch noticing it doesn't nullify the usual AoO for overruning, that's even worse then.

You should be able to make an item that is both an Amulet of Mighty Fists (to buff all natural weapons), and Necklace of Natural Attacks (to get DR piercing). The cheaper of the two costs 150% for mixing items, so 14k for +1 on everything if added to something that buffs a single weapon to +3 or more. The thing is, piercing DR with weapon properties is quite expensive and I don't think it's worth it until very high levels (which you're at) on weapon wielding PCs only (which this is not). Personally I'd try to negotiate for some of the Ranger/Druid spells meant for that purpose (Silvered Claws BoED, Align Fang SpC) : it makes sense that a paladin with a beasty mount would be allowed the beasty buffs.

Knight's Move is a swift action teleport, downside is you have to land in a flanking position but with multiple foes you might be able to use it to flank one guy then charge at someone else instead, and you can take your mount with you thanks to Share Spells. Also Rhino's Rush doubles damage for one hit on a charge if your paladin wasn't already using it.

Hp calculation: mine was off since I missed some stuff, but I think you also gave it max hp on the first hit die, which doesn't apply to companions.

[HurinTheCursed]

Regarding Improved Unarmed Strike, if I understand, a huge creature could have an unarmed iterative d6+Str attack as main attack, followed by its natural attack as secondaries ?
And yes, our opponent's AC isn't very high 16-22 in most cases (few spellcasters, hardly more than +1 armors) so +23/18/13 should mostly hit twice.

When charge is not possible, there's something attractive about sending huge creature prone on the floor using power dive. Once down, it's dead meat. 2 feats is a bit expensive since it seems circonstancial. But I checked and improved overrun doesn't prevent the AoO unlike most of the PHB "improved X" line ! So it has the same default as flyby attack, it decreases survival.

Our DM isn't too keen about custom wondrous items, the paladin's player will have to make a diplomacy check I guess. DR is usually solved through magic and high damage from the paladin and the barbarian, miss chance was more of a problem. The paladin's lance is epic and good-aligned, the barbarian's weapon will be adamantium with truesilver. Spells and silversheen capsules may help others.

This player is not really digging for stuff outside PHB. Knight's Move was already on the spells I wanted to show him, maybe circumstancial but certainly useful. Same for Rhino Rush, great for ending a boss in once, otherwise it's mostly overkill.

For the HP, I could have miscalculated but I think I just multiplied HD*(5.5+Con bonus), rounded down.

[Fizban]

Yes, the iterative attack counts as the primary and then you add all natural weapons as secondaries. So 1/2 str and -5, or -2 with Multiattack, or -0 with improved Multiattack. Delicious. And huge unarmed is indeed d6.

Ah, fighting classed NPCs in low-magic Dragonlance. All you need worry about is the occasional dragon then I guess, not sure what all you're fighting that even has non-/magic DR aside from golems maybe, but I don't remember the stats on the weird fiends and stuff. If your DM is going to make up restrictions on magic items then he should get used to players asking for customization to avoid those restrictions, and a standard two items on one slot markup, for a flat bonus, that's in place of a weapon, is hardly custom. The reason there are barely any specialized "mount" items is specifically because they're supposed to be able to use normal items, what does he expect with a rule like that? Anyway, if the DR guys have low AC then you could just Power Attack through it. Even use an improvised two-handed weapon for 1.5 str and x2 PA.

If the paladin's been playing PHB only and it's been working fine all game, and you're fighting classed NPCs with no gear, you're probably in a pretty low-power game. Though I don't see why you'd need an Epic magic weapon in that case, but presumably it's a Greater Dragonlance because Dragonlance. Just having a huge Griffon around is probably enough of a shock, maybe no need to bring in the wands of Rhino's Rush.

The mount bonus hit dice are defined, d8's with 3/4 BAB and something saves. That knocks 6 hp off the total. (It is apparent that the "mount" progression is actually a warhorse progression-but instead of confusing the poor players with math and creature types they decided to override the natural armor value and re-define animal hit dice. Which then apply to every alternate mount in the game, so alternate mounts don't make any sense and need to be undercosted to compensate).

[HurinTheCursed]

So instead of bite +24(3d6+10) / claws +21(2*1d6+5) / rake +21(2*1d8+5)
He would end up with unarmed +23/+18/+13 (1d6+10) / bite +22(3d6+5) / claws +21(2*1d6+5) / rake +21(2*1d8+5) ?
It doesn't add much tactically but even with a low dice, that's very nice damage if 2 blows land.

So far, dragons haven't lasted long due to good spell preparation and a holy keen +5 dragonlance, a magebane dragonbane guisarme will probably improve the odds further. Gargoyles were a pain for the druid circus and our scout archer, same for the some undead with DR and immunities but so far, area of effect attacks are what caused most trouble. IMO, it doesn't matter if a paladin mount is not good against all enemies, it doesn't matter if 1 or 2 characters are ineffective in some encounters as long as the rest of the team has the right tools to end the threat quickly.

Low equipment for the enemies and thus for us, in a way it's balanced. But it greatly increases the magic / mundane gap but so far enemy magic users are mainly bosses, our group has trouble keeping its magic users lineup and our DM has only added few of his own encounters (which were interesting but dangerous !). Fights are getting more lethal so I'm more invested in being the one who talks to other players (in particular to the least minmaxing minded) about the good options they may have missed, such as heroic surge for the paladin (4 extra attack or move actions a day, great to get a charge !). But it was great our PHB paladin received his dragonlance by level 7-8, it keeps him on par with better tiers during the fight.

Would you mean the griffon loses its magical beast d10 and full BAB, its higher natural AC but keeps its CR for the calculation of levels ? But anyway, since the horse could not improve anymore and that there is very little cost to change to a griffon, it's still better to get the higher CR mounts than keeping the standard one. He'll reach top level before the end of the campaign in theory. So far, the horse was just a taxi, now it's a flying taxi with teeth !

[Fizban]

The exact attack routine of course depends on the exact stats and feats you end up with.

Assuming just standard Weapon Focus: Bite and Multiattack, plus Improved Unarmed Strike, the routine is:

Unarmed -0/-5/-10 (1d6+str), bite -1 (3d6+1/2 str), claws -2/-2 (1d6+1/2 str), and rakes -2/-2 (1d6+1/2 str). Take whatever the max attack bonus is (BAB+str+items and buffs) and apply those modifiers. With 29 str and BAB +11 (7 from griffon and 4 from mount HD) the starting bonus is +20 before magic (dunno where I got 31 str earlier, I'm full of math errors this thread).

Low equipment is unbalanced by definition: all else being equal, monsters have higher stats and PCs are supposed to have magic gear to close the gap, so not having gear means you are behind. Classed NPCs are the least balanced of all monsters, since PC classes are built for monster slaying and are overkill against PC classes (at least those with actual class features, as in magic users). They have to have low gear to avoid bloating PC wealth, but this means that they have no chance of matching monsters in toughness. Basically the only classed NPC foes that work are tough casters at the same level, clerics can be monster-ish but everything else is too far off either end of the spectrum. This is all in the theory of course, obviously in practice people run monsters and classed NPCs in all sorts of unintended ways which can be better or worse and trying to force an existing game into a new mold doesn't work.

The griffon doesn't lose anything. All it does is gain 6 hit dice as described in the mount section (d8, 3/4 BAB, high fort/ref), increase it's natural armor to +8 if it was lower (advanced huge griffons have +9 so nothing happens), gains +3 strength, increases intelligence to 8 if it was lower (griffons have int 5 so this does happen and it improves to 8), and gains the other special mount abilities from the table.

The challenge rating is only used as a guideline for deciding what level you can get it/how much the bonuses are delayed, and is thrown out the window once you start giving free size increases. The correct place to be considering that would be the the Advancement: mount progression does not increase mount size, period. The fact that it is a common occurrence is due to people not understanding the difference between Monster Advancement, and everything else (this just came up in another thread as well, where people think that size increases give you strength by default: they don't, that's part of Monster Advancement). In order to have a Huge Griffon, you need to start with a Huge Griffon.

A Huge Advanced Griffon (11HD) is by formula CR 5. This is obviously bogus and a perfect example of why formulas are never hard rules. Rounding up would bring us to 6, applying +1 for size increase (because large-huge is just as important as med-large) brings us to 7. Elephants are Huge and CR7: the Huge Advanced Griffon (11HD) has more hp, more AC, flight, and pounce. A Dire Tiger at CR 8 is comparable, with Improved Grab and slightly more hp/damage in place of flight. Thus the actual rating of a Huge Advanced Griffon (11HD) should be CR 8.

Now that we have the CR, we can run it through the DMG's mount guidelines: flying mount at CR= level-4, so the minimum available level is 12th (but should be adjusted by the DM if neccesary, whoo boy).

As you have noticed, there is no reason to ever not use the most powerful mount available. Just like a druid's companion, later options are always more powerful. It's even more noticeable for paladin mounts though: the mount progression is written for a warhorse, so it starts with 2 free hit dice because at 5th level a warhorse is already low on hp. But then the DMG's mount guidelines are the only companion section in the game that directly references challenge rating**, and indeed the examples given all match what it says there. The catch is that animal companion bonus HD scale around 2/3 levels, paladin mount bonus HD scale around 2/4 levels*, and challenge rating scales at 3 HD per CR increase. Look at those mounts: you go from the Dire Bat with 4 animal hit dice and a single crappy attack at 6th level, to the Griffon with 7 magical beast hit dice and pounce and rake at 8th level.

If you actually use that CR= -3/-4 as a hard rule, paladin mounts are stronger than any other companion creature. Remember that Dire Tiger I just used for rating the CR of our advanced griffon? A Druid can't get that until 16th level, while a Paladin would get it at 11th. . . with 2 bonus hit dice. So in the end it's actually better that your DM is making the huge size part of the mount progression instead of running the mount guidelines "RAW," because it actually makes it weaker by about one tier of mount bonuses. Even then it's far more powerful than most companion creatures, roughly equivalent to the Druid's gold standard Dire Bear (available at 13th), but with flight and pounce.

Incidentally, I ran the CR based formula through a gold dragon to compare to the Draconomicon and got a result two age categories higher thanks to the draconic CR scaling. I think Draconomicon is using breath weapon damage more than anything else for their mount table.

*Oh, and since the mount bonuses scale faster earlier and don't scale at all for the last 5 levels, but the best DMG mount is only a -3 level penalty, there's literally no reason not to take a Griffon immediately at level 8.
**Actually there's another I know of, an evil caster PrC that's just a justification for giving your NPCs mounts and scroll piles rather than using your DM fiat. And it still limits CR to a max of 6+cha with no bonus HD.

[HurinTheCursed]

// feats

During my initial search, I missed Diving Charge which may apply to all attacks but it's still focused on chargers and makes one further a one-trick griffon.
The Grapple / Overrun line of feats don't seem to be helpful for the paladin.

// items

Grafts might be worth looking. Rejecting undead and abominations, there are quite nice grafts in MoE but source and elements could be a problem. RotD also has good one that are likely to be accepted but more on the expensive side, smashing tail seems worth noting (and would be funny with prehensile tail), the right gleaming scale may be useful in our setting (the book cover shows a BIIIIIIG white dragon).

I'll advise him ioun stones for strength or constitution. They're the only source of long stat enhancement he'll access. And saves boosting items for him will be twice better.

// mount and companion choice

I've been advised to talk the player about a redeemed nightmare but it was a hard sell and the smoke would have preventeed him from seeing without blindsense.
I had strongly adviced this player to ask for an half-celestial griffon, I don't know if he didn't tried or if he failed his diplomacy roll.

I wouldn't worry about the druid animal companions being weaker than the paladin's mount, our druid has two beast on of which is a fleshraker with venomfire.

I'll try to convince him finishing as a Wild Plains Outrider, full attack after a movement will make him a lot more versatile.