Meta-game: what fits this party best?

[Klorox]

Level 1. The party is currently comprised of a monk, a bard, a rogue, and a cleric.

I am thinking I should probably go with some kind of character that can fill the tank role.

I should also mention that we were told to roll for stats, and I feel a little dirty with the stats I rolled (I'm used to point buy).

18/16/14/14/13/13

I'd love to hear suggestions on what class fits into the rest of the party best.

Thank you.

[Gastronomie]

There isn't a single frontline fighter. I'd go Paladin. That or Barbarian.

[Jakinbandw]

Battlemaster human, with tunnel fighter for fighting style and pole-arm master (or possibly sentinel). As far as I can tell, that the best you can do for tanking.

[Kane0]

Tank is probably best, and with stats like that you can't go wrong. Paladin with good Str, Con and Cha plus above average in the rest is great. You could dip into fighter, barbarian, sorcerer or warlock as you please after that.

[Moo, I'm Human]

Half-Orc Campion Fighter, wear full plate+shield, be a tank. Take Tough at some point too

[Townopolis]

With a bard and a cleric, there should be an abundance of healing, so I'd go with barbarian. As someone mentioned in another thread, barbarians get all their good tanking stuff by level 3. After that, it's just more rages and more damage, which is okay in a party with as much indirect defense as that. You just need to be the guy to stand out front and tank the hits.

Any fighter subclass will work as well, as will paladin. Ancients paladin is the tankiest paladin, in case the bard and cleric aren't as keen on rocking support as those classes tend.

You can also try barbarian(totem) 4/spell-less ranger(hunter) 4/fighter(battlemaster) 12, which is less about optimization than it is about having as many options in combat as possible. And, uh, if you do go that route, tell me how it goes. Seriously, though, I don't have a group to try that MC in and want to see how well it does.

[bid]

a monk, a bard, a rogue, and a cleric.
18/16/14/14/13/13
Dexadin. Vuman 14 18 14 14 14 16 just because. Start with shield master and proficiency in athletics. If you like ankle-biters, got stout with 14 20 15 13 13 16 to grab resilient(Con) later.

Cleric cannot handle frontline by himself, you have the stats for paladin MADness and you can MC even if you dump to Str13. See if the cleric will go trickery for a stealthy party.

In a way, your stats are excessive. You have to play utility to allow the others to shine. Monk/rogue will love you if you shove their target down. Bardic inspiration can help you if you miss your check too.

[bid]

a monk, a bard, a rogue, and a cleric.
18/16/14/14/13/13
The other MAD plan is barbarogue.
Start half-orc 20 14 17 13 13 14 and aim for wolf 5 / swashbuckler 9. Wolf is perfect for rogue/monk and you can taunt with panache. You can also get expertise in athletics and shield master, to shove 3 targets every turn. Or you could slice and dice with TWF.

[captain-mills]

I agree with those saying Paladin. That's a pretty solid front-line fighter, especially for tanking. Barbarian would be alright, but with those stats a Barbarian build runs the risk of outshining everyone else to the point of annoyance. Go with the Oath of the Ancients for good tanking abilities. Plus Ancients Paladins seem to work pretty well with bards in an rp sense.

[MaxWilson]

Level 1. The party is currently comprised of a monk, a bard, a rogue, and a cleric.

I am thinking I should probably go with some kind of character that can fill the tank role.

I should also mention that we were told to roll for stats, and I feel a little dirty with the stats I rolled (I'm used to point buy).

18/16/14/14/13/13

I'd love to hear suggestions on what class fits into the rest of the party best.

Thank you.

The party doesn't have anyone who can cast wizard stuff like Rope Trick, Wall of Force, Evard's Black Tentacles, Teleportation Circle, etc. Therefore you need a wizard. But it also lacks a front-line tank.

Therefore, I recommend either (1) a Bladesinger, or (2) a Life Cleric 1/Wizard X. With heavy armor and the Shield spell plus spells like Blink and Blur you'll be a fantastic frontline tank, but you'll still have lots of utility out of combat. Pick any wizard specialty you like--Illusionist and Enchanter would both be fun in different ways, and Necromancer is extremely powerful and has a great concentration economy. A third option, with those stats, would be to play a Fiendlock 2/Abjuror X with the Armor of Shadows invocation recharge up your Arcane Ward for free. I'd probably make it a variant human with the Medium Armored option so you can still get a base AC of 19 on top of your Arcane Ward/Blur spells/etc.

In all three of these variants you wind up covering the tank role and the wizard role simultaneously and very well.

[Klorox]

The party doesn't have anyone who can cast wizard stuff like Rope Trick, Wall of Force, Evard's Black Tentacles, Teleportation Circle, etc. Therefore you need a wizard. But it also lacks a front-line tank.

Therefore, I recommend either (1) a Bladesinger, or (2) a Life Cleric 1/Wizard X. With heavy armor and the Shield spell plus spells like Blink and Blur you'll be a fantastic frontline tank, but you'll still have lots of utility out of combat. Pick any wizard specialty you like--Illusionist and Enchanter would both be fun in different ways, and Necromancer is extremely powerful and has a great concentration economy. A third option, with those stats, would be to play a Fiendlock 2/Abjuror X with the Armor of Shadows invocation recharge up your Arcane Ward for free. I'd probably make it a variant human with the Medium Armored option so you can still get a base AC of 19 on top of your Arcane Ward/Blur spells/etc.

In all three of these variants you wind up covering the tank role and the wizard role simultaneously and very well.

This was my initial thinking as well, but I went about it differently.

I was thinking either a mono-classed mountain dwarf wizard (abjuration) or warlock (the medium armor would allow these two characters to tank at a decent level), or an eldritch knight who may or may not take wizard levels later.

If I don't worry about the wizardly stuff at all (the bard can cover that stuff... kind of), I always liked the idea of a pole-arm master character. IDK if I'd make him a fighter or a fighter/barbarian multiclass though.

But, I did start this thread so I could get some opinions. :)

[Hrugner]

I have to wonder if this group tends toward stealth play with a bard monk and a rogue in the party. If so, you may not want to slow things down by bringing a heavy armor wearer into the group.

[Gtdead]

I'd probably go for a gish. Your party can already stand its own ground. Going for a tank may seem convenient but its by no means necessary. Warlock (blade) or bladesinger would be my choice.

[Specter]

No tank, you say? Go for:
a) Human Barbarian with the Sentinel feat
b) Fighter (Eldritch Knight) with Shield and Absorb Elements;
c) Fighter (Banneret); Give 'em health! See what I did? Huh? Huh? Nevermind.

[Citan]

Level 1. The party is currently comprised of a monk, a bard, a rogue, and a cleric.

I am thinking I should probably go with some kind of character that can fill the tank role.

I should also mention that we were told to roll for stats, and I feel a little dirty with the stats I rolled (I'm used to point buy).

18/16/14/14/13/13

I'd love to hear suggestions on what class fits into the rest of the party best.

Thank you.
Hi!

Well, you have such good stats that many many builds would be possible... ;)

Let's start with the basics:

Barbarian
+ You can help your friends getting advantage (wolf) or get damage resistance (bear).
- While your roll is good, it doesn't help much with Barbarian. You would have to choose either to max STR and "be stuck with" medium armor, or try to use Unarmored Defense and go Dex build. Not so bad though.

My advice would be to make a STR build and go bear to soak up damage.

Paladin
All Oaths are good, Ancients is especially great for tanking.
+ All proficiencies, disease immunities, Aura of protection (+CHA to saves) and resistance to magic (Ancients Oath).
+ Deal decent consistent damage, good nova with smites, plenty of spell utility that can alleviate the cleric's job (ex: you cast Bless while he has to concentrate on a Shield of Faith, Bane, Enhance Ability or Spirit Guardians).
- None for you (because good stats. ;))

My suggestion would be either a S&B dex build with finesse weapon, so you also get decent at avoiding Dex-spells and high initiative, or STR build with Polearm Master and Sentinel to block enemies.

Fighter
All subclasses can be good, but I feel Eldricht Knight would be the best by far.
+ All Fighter goodies, you will deal good damage and get many ASI/feats to tailor your character as you feel needed.
+ Eldricht Knight! You will get many good defensive buffs to help you tanking, as well as many offensive spells. And you have good enough stats to make spells count once you get Eldricht Strike.
- You don't get any damage reduction compared to Barbarian or Paladin.
- Nor healing/support spells that could alleviate the cleric job.

As for how to build Eldricht Knight, every way would be good. I would tend to favor a DEX build because you can swap melee with ranged as you want, but STR build with GWM is very nice too.

Moon Druid
While there is admittedly a few levels where you will feel a bit frail or less useful, Moon Druid is a very solid class overall. Especially since you can still concentrate on spells while Wild Shaped.
You would also get plenty of spells that nobody else in the party can get that can be used in many ways (such as the Conjuration spells).
If you like the idea of Wild Shape, this can be a very solid choice, especially if there is a good chance you will play this character up to 20.

Bard
This will seem a bit a stretch, but it could work as long as you use Magic Secrets to poach good spells. Would be more complex and much less sturdy than the others though... As a single-class. Dips would make things very different. ;)
Ooops did'nt see you had a bard already... While you could be technically very different, let's not try our chance here.


Now for the true discussion. Do you dislike multiclass?
Because otherwise, considering how good your rolls are, I'd say you'd best profit your luck to dip crazy!


DEX Paladin with tricks
Swashbuckler Rogue (3): better Initiative, movement, damage, skills.
Draconic Sorcerer (6): offensive spells, metamagic (Twin, Quick), better HP and armor, bonus damage on one damage type (fire or thunder suggested because of smite spells).
Shadow Sorcerer (6): this archetype brings a beast that gives disadvantage against your spells.
Fighter (3): additional Fighting Style, action surge and archetype benefit (all are good).

CHA Paladin with tricks
Undying Light Tome Warlock (3): Shillelagh: condemns you to the use of a quarterstaff, so good only if you want to take Polearm Master feat or you just want to get as many feats as possible.
Lore Bard (6): same idea, although you also get another Magic Secret and plenty of skills (although for skills you already have a pure Bard so best to avoid this).

STR Paladin with tricks
Fighter: same as above.
Barbarian: wolf (if you took Ancients Oath) or bear.

Enhanced Eldricht Knight
EK 11 / Wizard 9: Abjuration for more tanking, Evocation to roast everyone, Bladesinger for a pure Dex, dual-wielding build.

Last but not least... ;)
An example of tri-class build (just for fun, don't follow it unless you're very experienced with multiclass ^^)

Eldricht Knight 12 / Paladin (Devotion for archer, Vengeance for melee) 3 / Swashbuckler Rogue 3
Starting stats before racial modifiers:
STR 14 / DEX 18 / CON 16 / INT 13 / WIS 13 / CHA 14
Half-Elf would be nice for CHA, other wise any race with +2 DEX.
This character will sweep through the battlefield (cunning action) before anyone else reacts (Swashbuckler +CHA to Initiative), landing heavy hit and disabling a powerful enemy in one go.


Ancients Paladin 7 (note: thought about Crown but not sure about how often one would use the "take damage instead of" ability)
Abjuration Wizard 2 (for replenishable shield, spells shield, absorb elements)
Undying Light Warlock 1 (for Armor of Agathys, Hex, bonus damage to fire and radiant)
Long Death Monk 3 (THP on kill)
Nature Cleric 2 (Shillelagh, resistance to elements on reaction).
Shadow Sorcerer 1: for free Constitution saving throw when falling to 0 (it's really OP as is, I think they will put a limit as "1 per short rest" at least), cantrip, spells.
The three last levels can be used to get more spellcasting or ASI (Paladin 8, Wizard 3 and Monk 4 would be nice).

This can be played several ways. As a classic STR build (you will use only utility/buff spells), with heavy weapons.
As a WIS build, with Shillelagh, to use a quarterstaff with Polearm Master or Sentinel.
Or as a Monk first build, which means DEX first WIS then, with Sentinel feat (you already get bonus action attack). Although this build would be more frail unless you cram a level of Fighter for Mariner fighting style or switch Shadow Sorcerer for Draconic Sorcerer.
Anyways, you would be very resistant to damage, and get plenty of spells and abilities to preemptively buff yourself or react on a danger.

Just don't ask me how the heck you're supposed to level this guy from level 1 onwards (I could think about it, but it's not like one would really try to play it, yes?)... And let's not even think about the RP implications... XD



Also, here are some threads that may or may not interest you... ;)
Tank topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?487466-Best-tank-for-group-with-no-healer)
EK+Bladesinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?487980-Eldritch-Knight-Bladesinger-Multiclass)

[Asmotherion]

I'd suggest a melee arcane magic user. Maybe fighter and then eldrich knight? Or simply a sorcerer (dragon/favored soul) with some green flame/booming blade spamming?

Problem is, at level one you can't know what path the party members will walk. With the right multiclass and/or archetype, all characters may fit various roles. For example, the bard might go lore and become a blaster, or valor and be a melee mage.

The lack of an arcane master though is visible in this party, and the cleric won't have time to both heal AND blast. That, and my motto that says "more casters is always better"... till you step in a dead magic zone, but that's a situational story for an other time.


Anyway, I'd like to see a warlock in that party to be honest.

[Democratus]

Since aggro doesn't exist in D&D 5e the concept of a tank is much more limited.

If you can plug up a 5-foot access point then a character can serve as a tank. Otherwise there's nothing stopping NPCs from attacking any other party members.

[Rysto]

Dexadin. Vuman 14 18 14 14 14 16 just because. Start with shield master and proficiency in athletics. If you like ankle-biters, got stout with 14 20 15 13 13 16 to grab resilient(Con) later.

What's the benefit of a Dexadin if he's going to go with Shield Master? Why not STR-based?

[Citan]

What's the benefit of a Dexadin if he's going to go with Shield Master? Why not STR-based?
Maybe I'm missing his idea, but if I'm not it would be because a reasoning on the following lines...
1) Single-class Paladin has no obligation to have good STR.
2) If no good STR, then heavy weapons are out of question.
3) In one-handed weapons, there is not much (none?) damage potential difference between finesse and non-finesse weapons.

Now for the benefits:
- Much better Initiative.
- Can still wield heavy armor (just maybe losing speed) or loses only just a bit of AC if you wear light/medium armor.
- Much better saves against many attack spells.
- When the worst comes, you can use a bow when needed.
- If/when you need to be stealthy, it will be easier.

The greatest could be if you manage to keep STR to 13 at least, so you can later, if you want, dip one level in Rogue to get Expertise in Athletics so you can shove all you want (although it's certainly not an obligation, and probably a bad idea if you go to character lvl 20. Expertise is never worth losing Paladin capstone).

[Rysto]

Sure, I get all of those benefits, but if you're going to build around shoving people prone, it seems to me that you'd want the additional +3 or +4 that you'd get from maxing STR. But I could be wrong.

[Sir cryosin]

Go dex based tank here is build
RACE: half-elf variant from scag pick elf weapon training. See if you can get drows weapons for Rapier if shortsword works.
Put the 13's in str, int the 14's in wis, con. Put 16 in char with bonus is now 18 put the 18 in Dex the other +1's were you want I'll say con and what ever.
Your ac will be 16 now with every lv you get a +1 to hp from dragon sorc ability. Here's what you do you use spells like shield, blink,ect to tank with and you your cantrips greenflame blade , shocking grasp, and Booming Blade to attack with then drops big aoe's with you facing groups of monsters. Try keeping the attention on you your wearing robes you shouldn't have high AC. First ASI use on dex to max it for 17ac. Then work on your con score. I know why not max char well an 18 is fine. If you play this smart it's a fun build to play. Shock grasped and Expedia retreat is a lovely combo

[Sir cryosin]

Being a tank does not mean you're a meat Shield it means you're keeping a aggro and then the enemy's attention focus on you and it's about mitigating the damage or circuit venting it completely. Sorry about any spelling errors I'm on my phone.

[Democratus]

Being a tank does not mean you're a meat Shield it means you're keeping a aggro and then the enemy's attention focus on you and it's about mitigating the damage or circuit venting it completely. Sorry about any spelling errors I'm on my phone.

Since there is no aggro mechanic in 5e, why would monsters focus on the fighter when its much easier to kill other party members?

[Sir cryosin]

Since there is no aggro mechanic in 5e, why would monsters focus on the fighter when its much easier to kill other party members?

That's were you have to be clever try insulting the monsters are the enemies be a nuisance to them if you're running in and hitting them and then running out they're going to want to chase after you if you look like a glass Cannon or they're most likely they're going to go for you first the point of it is give them reason. To go after you instead of anybody else in your party

Edited: be confident cocky and clever and daring

[Gtdead]

Aggro mechanics may be limited, but there are ways to control the enemy's movement.

A Paladin for example can use command to control enemy movement, can grab sentinel to immobilize those that try to move past him, he's powerful enough to be a threat to those that ignore him and it's pretty hard to kill (especially ancients).

Sure "tank" and "meatshield" are poor definitions to use for such a character, but well, people like them ^^

[MaxWilson]

Since aggro doesn't exist in D&D 5e the concept of a tank is much more limited.

If you can plug up a 5-foot access point then a character can serve as a tank. Otherwise there's nothing stopping NPCs from attacking any other party members.

Well, there is the Mounted Combatant feat to let you plug up a 10' access point with your horse. To be fair, a 5' or 10' access point is not exactly rare in dungeon crawling; overland, tanking doesn't really work, but long-range archery is fantastic in that scenario. One or both of tanking/archery is almost always applicable, kind of like how one or both of archery/shadow monking is almost always applicable.

Also, grappling/shoving lets a warrior control enemy movement even better than "drawing aggro", because you can control enemy movement against their will even if they know exactly what you're doing to them. (Esp. Valor Bard specialized for it, but I've found that even a regular Paladin with +7 to Athletics is still pretty good at grappling most monsters CR 1-10 especially with Hex support from a warlock; this is due to Extra Attack and the fact that monsters don't generally have a high Athletics skill.) It also prevents enemies from running away to summon reinforcements or heal up. Most tanks can only control one or two targets at the most (Fighter/Enchanter could potentially control up to five, two with grappling, one with Hypnotic Gaze, two more with Split Spell/Tasha's (Uncontrollable) Hideous Laughter) but combine that with the aforementioned 5' chokepoints and it works pretty well.

But yeah, generally spellcasters do it better. Evard's Black Tentacles/Web/Spike Growth let you plug up a 20' (EBT/Web) or 40' (Spike Growth) access point. In fact, Careful Web from a sorcerer lets your party actually stand inside of the Web (they automatically make their saves against the spell, apparently for as long as it lasts) while the enemy is tangling themselves in the web every round.

Also, the Paladin spell Compelled Duel pretty much is "draw aggro" as I understand the term. I'm going to lump that in with the spellcasters though instead of the "tank" per se.

================================================== =========


That's were you have to be clever try insulting the monsters are the enemies be a nuisance to them if you're running in and hitting them and then running out they're going to want to chase after you if you look like a glass Cannon or they're most likely they're going to go for you first the point of it is give them reason. To go after you instead of anybody else in your party

Edited: be confident cocky and clever and daring

Also, illusions.

If the wizard can use Seeming to make the spellcasters look like hulking greatsword barbarians, and the fighters look like rogues, and the barbarians look like spindly wizards in robes... good times will be had by the PCs.

[Wulfskadi]

If you want to go full offensive, choose barbarian. You definitely have the sats to pull it off. Put your highest in strength, then con, then Dex. This would give you a pretty high AC and some decent saves if you also invested a 14 in wisdom. If you took half orc you could max your strength right off. If you take dwarf you could do something similar and max your stats pretty quickly, giving you room to take feats or increase other stats for saving throws. You can get a ton of attacks and some epic defensive and offensive abilities to let you either punch through enemy lines or just take everything thrown at you

If you want to play defensive go with Paladin. Though you have slightly smaller hit dice, you also have that 5xlevel healing ability. Additionally you can take heavy armor so you dont have to invest in Dex, letting you put your highest in str, con and char. Additionally you can become a secondary healer for your party (though the ranger already can fill this slot). However you can also play damage dealer with the divine smite ability, though you don't get as many attacks as a berserker, but you get fighting style which can allow some interesting bonuses, defensive and offensive.


To sum up. I would go with Barbarian if I were you. Every group needs a meat shield and that is probably the best with the stats you got. You could pull off paladin, or fighter even, and with a couple feats you could make them practically indestructable. But if you want a solid, wall-type warrior whose strength can come through where magic fails, go Barbarian

[Klorox]

Since aggro doesn't exist in D&D 5e the concept of a tank is much more limited.

If you can plug up a 5-foot access point then a character can serve as a tank. Otherwise there's nothing stopping NPCs from attacking any other party members.

This is true, but that's why the fighter/barbarian/paladin needs to be in front. You'll draw the most initial attacks and hopefully get into a situation where opponents have little choice but to fight you, instead going after weaker party members.

Wielding a polearm would make this more likely, as you'll have the reach to stop enemies.

[Citan]

Since there is no aggro mechanic in 5e, why would monsters focus on the fighter when its much easier to kill other party members?

Hence the recommended builds of pure Paladin, multiclass Paladin (with Sorcerer or Bard) or Eldricht Knight + Wizard.

Paladin gets Compelled Duel, which could be Twinned if multiclassed to ensure at least 2 creatures won't go after the squishies.

Crown Oath gets a "mass Compelled Duel" channel divinity if I remember correctly.

Command is also great either as lvl 1 Twinned, or upcast at higher level. Just the "flee" or "approach" command can change many things, and things it's a movement made with creature's move speed (not pushed or lifted away) it can provoke opportunity attacks. Can combo well with Polearm Master and Sentinel (order them to close in > enter your reach > provoke OA > you hit them, they lose their remaining speed).

Bard gets Dissonant Whispers which also provoke a movement with potential OA.

Bard (or Wizard) gets plenty of illusion spells and can poach terrain-changing spells such as Spike Growth or Entangle (great to combo with Monk's Stunning Strike to restrain creatures) or Spirit Guardians / Moonbeam.

Even Druid though could shape the battlefield, between Conjuration and Wall spells, but lacks a bit in the defense department compared to the others for a good portion of his career so... Same with pure Wizard.

Hence for a character who can aggro and withstand the heat, the above mentioned builds: simple enough to build and work well (especially Paladin if you want to protect party, between passive auras, spell auras and Circle of Power...).
Unless you want to go crazy and get every interesting (low-level) command/defense feature available to classes, doable but messy. ^^

[bid]

Sure, I get all of those benefits, but if you're going to build around shoving people prone, it seems to me that you'd want the additional +3 or +4 that you'd get from maxing STR. But I could be wrong.
You're more build around shield and stealth. Shield master is just a freebie for your bonus action.

[Klorox]

What do you guys think of this idea?

Mountain dwarf wizard (probably abjuration)

STR 16 DEX 14 CON 20 INT 16 WIS 13 CHA 13

He can tank in a pinch (probably as well as a bladesinger), wear medium armor, and use a war hammer with two hands.

With that 20 CON, he'll be great at concentration checks, and he will have just about as many hit points as your average fighter.

[Klorox]

OTOH, I'm kinda thinking I should go with a paladin of some kind. Not sure which yet, but compelled duel seems like something this party needs.

[bid]

Mountain dwarf wizard (probably abjuration)
STR 16 DEX 14 CON 20 INT 16 WIS 13 CHA 13
What!? Simple and elegant, nice one.

[Klorox]

What!? Simple and elegant, nice one.

Yeah, and he'd be great at abusing green flame blade if forced into melee. Or booming blade. I can't remember which is better.