What makes good characters "fall"?

[Jon_Dahl]

In your games, what has made good-aligned character become non-good?

I had an interesting episode in my campaign yesterday, one that I really wasn't expecting. The PCs are part of an Adventurers' Guild and they have this mission to help a gnome inventor to build a mini-zeppelin. They discovered the hiding place of a criminal who has stolen an important part of the invention. When they were about to leave and catch the crook, they realized that the trip would take 16 days (or more) and one of the PCs had promised a month ago to hold a two-week training course ("How to Adventure") for novice adventurers. The training was about to start in a week. They requested that the PC could postpone the training, but the guild's second-in-command, an authoritarian Lawful Neutral monk, did not have any of it. This had a surprisingly strong effect on my PCs (and players?) and the Neutral Good Warmage/Dragon Disciple said that he has now lost hope in mankind, since there is no genuine good will towards men in this world, and Good is willing to let Evil triumph. In other words, he will stop caring and aim to be Chaotic Neutral. The player has stated this to me.

(Of course the thing is that the criminal is not going anywhere, since he is rather passive and only does a burglary or two per month. He will be there after the training, but I have also considered having a bit more conflict and have the crook die just before the PCs arrive so that the PCs will go against the guild.)

[BWR]

What happened yesterday was this:
After a year or two of pretty bland murderhoboing we suddenly plunged into deep roleplaying. We had a little time ago picked up an evil artifact that didn't ping evil. It slowly transformed, over the course of six weeks, M, the CG Pelor-worshipping bearer turned undead. The week before this happened he started having nightmares and put off telling anyone until too late and we literally just missed the cut-off date. He became necropolitan and the high priest of Boccob we spoke to agreed that he was merely undead and his personality remained the same. Unfortunately, he had a few months earlier been made baron of a small frontier domain. My character, G, and the cleric of the group, A, insisted that he make his new condition known to the king so the king could handle the situation as he saw fit. We did not know the legal status of undead in the realm, the matter of who holds a title (is it until death?) and his relationship to local clergy, notably the Pelor church. The recently deceased PC immediately forsook his former patron in pure self-interest, and wanted to keep his condition secret. The cleric and I worked hard to convince him to come clean. He didn't want to so I went to the palace to inform the king and got an audience the next day. By this time M changed his mind and sought an audience on his own. With some good Diplomacy rolls he got the king to accept the situation and try to keep things quiet (no point antagonizing major friendly religions now is there?)

Three days after returning to M's barony, we were on adventure clearing out the wilderness and M's undead nature became clear to one of our henchmen who understandably panicked a bit. Turns out he was a devout Pelorian and tried to run. M immediately orders the druid in the party to chase and capture him. A giant polar bear sitting on you doesn't make you feel less panicked, then M proceeds to roll a natural 1 on his Diplomacy roll (with no more than a +2 modifier) to convince the guy that everything is ok. Failing to convince the henchman to calm down and keep the secret, M and the other PCs (A being dead at this point) tied the henchman up and discussed what to do, which included straight-up murder.

To sum up the rest, in the space of three days, the formerly CG Pelorian went straight to LN and is heading toward evil, dragging three other PCs with him. Not because being undead changed his moral nature but because he is now super-paranoid that people want to kill him for being undead and is willing to do all sorts of things to keep his secret, including contemplating straight up murder of innocents. M was removed from office for causing too much trouble for the king. G decided to drop out of the group since he didn't trust any of the them anymore and they didn't like his 'betrayal'.

OOC, it was the best session we've had in this game, being tense and fun and a bunch of generally bland characters suddenly getting personality.

[Efrate]

If he was seriously contemplating murder of an innocent who just "doesn't understand" or somesuch, thats a VERY evil thing to do. Good or neutral characters don't just plot the murder of guard x because he found out the big secret. Not without a heck of a lot more reason than he found out, I gotta stay safe, eliminate he who found out.

Also, that alone pretty sure disqualifies him as a cleric of pelor, at the very least needing an atonement. Wee Jas would likely have him, or more likely Vecna the way he is talking. The person being terrified, especially of a priest of his god,a god one of who's tenets is destruction of undead, is understandably freaked out. You thrown the sanctity of his entire religion into doubt in a few heartbeats. For a devout that is kind of a major deal.

Options:

"I understand it is concerning, however you can see my faith/whatever is still strong (assuming it is) and this is not something I chose, merely a trial I must endure. Think of it as a curse I must bear, and please, understand I bear you no ill will nor intent, but I must keep my freedom to do what I need to and I wish not for you jeopardize that" The most CG/NG answer, assuming this is before the death threat, and he actually does want to change.

"My condition would be greatly troublesome if a it became common knowledge. How about I pay you nice bonus fee and let you go home early. Just speak to no one, I value my life. " More CN but still within the realm of reason.

"If you say anything, we kill you. This will not be known." this is clearly an evil as all heck answer and sounds like what he went with. That firmly puts him 100% into the evil category.

[Andreaz]

In your games, what has made good-aligned character become non-good?Sticking to D&D...
Braela led a simple life as a militiawoman for most of her life, doing the occasional bodyguard work in a fairly large settlement. Usually her altruistic side got the better of her and sent her to jail for the occasional misconduct in her militia service.
Her marriage was fine, her kids healthy. But everything changed when the Fire Nation atta... Demons, actually. a mad warlock with a crapton of demons made a mess and in the process exploded her neighborhood along with husband and children.

Once sorrow gave way into anger she began a quest of hunting anything associated with demons, and over a few years generosity gave space to obsession. Eventually she crossed paths with a devil associated with the Black Thorn, and she took the oath. Later she came to terms with her grief and realized much of her nurturing nature, that gave way to a ruthless practicality and an utter lack of compassion before her mission, would never come back. And that was fine.

Today she's a tranquil person, and ultimately someone nice to be near, if stern and demanding of those under her command. But the cruelty and ruthless drive are still there. If she takes a duty for herself, nothing will stand between her and the objective. Her hatred for demons never ceased either.

[Geddy2112]

I have posted this a couple times before, but I am obliged to share it again

He worked for a theocracy, and while the hands of god in heaven seemed useless, the power of the theocracy was real, and measurable.After yet another setback where divine goodness, praying, healing the sick, protecting the meek, and purging the profane resulted in jack squat, he was done with being good. We had saved a town from control of a vampire, cured a deadly plague, and removed a blight from the fields. But not a dang thing changed in the grand scheme-all of the faith and good works meant nothing, as the town went right back into another set of misfortunes by their own choosing.

He tried again to save the town, but this time, nothing good he could do worked, or mattered. The party left the town, the cleric was in tears. He swore against his god for being weak, and that the mortal theocracy he served is the only way.

The next town over, he found a sinner, and brought him to seclusion for an impromptu confession and evangelism. He did the standard witnessing, asked the convert to kneel and close his eyes, then cast silence and anointed him with holy water. At this point, the table is snickering thinking that this is going into a X rated scene. Until the cleric put his gun to the back of his head and blew his brains out. Then burned the body and walked off. The rest of the table was silent and the DM had to step out for 10 minutes, due to the shock. He shifted to LN hard and fast, and wandered the lands as more of a Judge Dredd type, eventually getting formally reprimanded and forced to a desk job by the theocracy.

Good people fall when good actions don't get good results. Evil starts as "the ends justify the means" and the road to hell is paved with good intentions, what have you.

[BWR]

If he was seriously contemplating murder of an innocent who just "doesn't understand" or somesuch, thats a VERY evil thing to do. Good or neutral characters don't just plot the murder of guard x because he found out the big secret. Not without a heck of a lot more reason than he found out, I gotta stay safe, eliminate he who found out.


M isn't a cleric, he was just a follower but the moment after he realized he was undead started talking about Pelor and Pelorians (Pelorites?) as if they were [insert nutjob political party of your choice]. M did try to talk his way out of things but the moment that didn't work started thinking about murder, or keeping him captive somewhere the henchman couldn't blab, then he tried to lie and conceal information from the king when called to answer the charges laid against him by me.
But yeah, there's a reason G left the group.

[JNAProductions]

Player laziness.

[Red Fel]

Any extended conversation with me.

Right, LP?

[WeaselGuy]

My whole group got turned into Vampires one time... That's a pretty surefire way to become Evil. After bumping up our collective ECL a few notches, the DM realized we were pretty much screwed for progression in his campaign, and asked us if we were willing to make new characters at the same level our old characters were at. We agreed, with the caveat that we get to play out our new vampire party's demise. It was a very fun fight, but the odds were slightly stacked against us (Archer Ranger with slaying arrows, Druid with fire spells, cleric and paladin with turning, all versus a sorcerer, a blackguard, a diplomancer, and a barbarian).

[Triskavanski]

Our party was in a bit of a vampire castle thing. After getting betrayed a few times through it, we slowly shifted from helping everyone to being more pessimistic. To the point when the vampire was defeated and was just a shriveled oldman instead of listening to him in exposition or anything, our half-orc fighter just lopped off his head.

I was on the fence myself of lopping the guys head off right there. But it turned out to be the right thing to do, as it apparently was some sort of bait.

Previously there was a werewolf who we ran into. The DM never rolled my Detect Werewolf check though (Lupin in 2nd had a 99% chance to detect werewolves if they had high senses.) The guy was in a position where he really couldn't have been there for too long without being dead if he was a normal mortal. After a bit of questioning, I caught him in a lie. Its hard sometimes to deceive a character who is a cleric of the god of lies.

[Gildedragon]

In your games, what has made good-aligned character become non-good?

I had an interesting episode in my campaign yesterday, one that I really wasn't expecting. The PCs are part of an Adventurers' Guild and they have this mission to help a gnome inventor to build a mini-zeppelin. They discovered the hiding place of a criminal who has stolen an important part of the invention. When they were about to leave and catch the crook, they realized that the trip would take 16 days (or more) and one of the PCs had promised a month ago to hold a two-week training course ("How to Adventure") for novice adventurers. The training was about to start in a week. They requested that the PC could postpone the training, but the guild's second-in-command, an authoritarian Lawful Neutral monk, did not have any of it. This had a surprisingly strong effect on my PCs (and players?) and the Neutral Good Warmage/Dragon Disciple said that he has now lost hope in mankind, since there is no genuine good will towards men in this world, and Good is willing to let Evil triumph. In other words, he will stop caring and aim to be Chaotic Neutral. The player has stated this to me.

(Of course the thing is that the criminal is not going anywhere, since he is rather passive and only does a burglary or two per month. He will be there after the training, but I have also considered having a bit more conflict and have the crook die just before the PCs arrive so that the PCs will go against the guild.)

That's a drastic response... A 1 week warning is being given and adventuring 101: stuff happens unexpectedly.
Also losing faith in goodness because a neutral type was a hardass (especially losing hope because people don't trust Good? That's sorta why Good is Good! It is hard and people might not like it, but it is in the best interest of people)

I've had PCs fall for being too bloodthirsty or goal-driven: when a character repeatedly justifies sketchy means with the ends (player was a big 24 fan)... Well yeah they have stopped being Good. They might be good for the world but aren't Good in the world.
More explicitly: a paladin that treats social encounters as battle, and minor evils as Smite-worthy... I argue that is a shift in perception caused by being too often in battle.
Brief power loss, cleric of Pelor talked to him but he wasn't having it. Next session a cleric of Cuthbert found the PC and the militaristic high order system (LN fiend-fighting fauxladin) suited him. it was a case of Mercy and Idealism being seen as hindrances to logged term good.

[Thealtruistorc]

"Falling?" What a childish way to put it. I prefer to think of it as "waking up."

Now then, let's get down to the good stuff. Heroism and everything that it entails is an illusion; no matter who you regard as a protector or savior or good person, there is definitely blood on their hands, and they, directly or indirectly, have actively contributed to the suffering of others. The leader you so praise gave an order that ended a thousand lives. The wise man you so admire actively stood for violence and oppression. The good Samaritan you use as a role model turns their back when forced to confront something that would question their beliefs.

All heroes are just villains deferred, because deep down everyone knows that they are a cold, heartless monster.

The best way to finally snap somebody to their senses? Put their petty resolves to the test. Force them to kill an innocent, or betray their best friend in order to save their own life. Everybody says that they would take a bullet for their buddy, but next to none would ever do it. Those that are willing to sacrifice themselves for others simply require a bit more creative medicine. How far would they be willing to go in order to stop evil? Would they kill innocents? Rob from them? Would they cause a fellow man horrific, excruciating pain if that meant it would stop him from hurting somebody?

Of course you would do any of these things if pushed to your limits. We would commit horrible crimes, So why hide from them? In a setting where not even objective good is safe from the brutality of the vast, murderous universe, what choice do you have but to lose yourself to it all?

[Winter_Wolf]

Any extended conversation with me.

Right, LP?
What, you got him? If so, bravo, sir. Must have been a good bit of persuasion.


"Falling?" What a childish way to put it. I prefer to think of it as "waking up."

Well some of those horses are pretty high, after all. Sometimes they get pushed off if they're having trouble getting down on their own. *sniff*:smallamused:

[martixy]

Behaving as in a video game or other sorts of similar (meta)gamey actions.

I might be a bit of a bastard DM on that point, but if I spend a crapton of time building a detailed world, I'm not about to let you destroy its verisimilitude without consequence.

[Efrate]

Being chaotic stupid is a pretty good way to fall.

Had a paladin in a campaign, who after being told to stay uninvolved with a minor goblin attack by the local magistrate's guards because only they could unsheath and use weapons in town, decided to fight anyways. He helped, even if not needed, and then was respectfully detained until he could be tried. Pally agreed, giving himself up to be manacled in the basement of a noble's house since he was a holy warrior and not a common thug to be thrown in the tiny jail. He gets manacled and stripped of his gear, and a pair of very nervous but respectful guards keep watch. After less than 5 minutes he decides he's bored, break his crummy manacles, punches a guard, takes the guard's sword and kills both guards. He falls instantly, gets his stuff and then goes out cause there's more things to be killed since the town was still under attacks for the night. He was then gleefully tricked out of his tarished soul by a faustian pack for something like a minor skill buff, and summarily died to a kuo-toa monk. This all happened over maybe an hour of game time.

Conversely
I've also conversely had the most LN cleric of st. cuthbert willing sacrifice himself to take a nasty giant were critter down with him, saving an injured and beaten down party at the cost of his own life. Heironious accepted him into the afterlife asap with easy atonement as a pensioners, cuthbert was kind of ticked but thems the breaks.

I had some evil pcs tend to heroism and good naturally so much that they had to be murdered by their fellows in there sleep for not sticking with the plan, and multiple CN/N people fall by deciding its better to just kill all those incapacitated and helpless bandit prisoners, and their women and children, so they wouldn't slow them down and/or become a threat later.

And cause I'm such a great DM.
I had planned for a Paladin in another game who was sent 90% + of his earnings back to this orphanage which had raised him. It had been suddenly transported to an unknown (to him) plane and they kind of needed everything. He was going to have to eventually go back there, kill everyone, mate with a stream of succubi until he produced an prophesied heir who would overthrow his own deity, on top of said corpses, whilst being fed a steady stream of the souls of the kids he has just knowingly slaughtered, because it was the only way to stop the universe from ending. He was going to know all of this and go into this willingly because it was the "only way" and be fully coherent all the way through. And he would have been given exception from his god and NOT fallen. Cause martyr gods have a different outlook on things. Unfortunately he died to a goblin in a cave and a few cheap alchemical items he failed every save on.

[weckar]

Entering this thread thinking it was about a DM thinking the only fun thing one can do with Paladins was make them fall, my gut reaction to the title was "Bad DMs make Good characters fall".

But, you actually have a much more interesting situation here. And although I don't directly have an answer to your question, the situation does play into a trope that has been bothering recently and which I will just leave here for the time being:
Why is it that no inventor in fiction ever takes research notes? That way, if an important part of your invention / last dose of your cure / etc. is destroyed or used or goes missing or gets stolen -- you can just re-make it. Of course, this does not include those cases or 'rare elements', but can you really always use such a justification?

This is not an attempted thread hijack, I promise...

[Efrate]

Most researchers are in my head cannon mages of some stripe, and it is likely hubris. Very hard to find a mage making any significant progress in anything relevant and/or high level that hasn't played with reality the way my 5 year old daughter plays with her toys. Randomly,silly, and without much if any thought of consequence. You have been taking reality and all the underlying principles for walks in the park for so long you just don't think you can ever be stopped. You likely have some type of contingency set up to keep yourself safe, and there is always a spell to recall what you need. Plus mundane notes can be stolen by anyone, cannot have someone stealing your thunder. Barring all of that, secret page, with a nystuls if need be, who is to say you didn't?

Plus you know plot.

[Jon_Dahl]

Entering this thread thinking it was about a DM thinking the only fun thing one can do with Paladins was make them fall, my gut reaction to the title was "Bad DMs make Good characters fall".

But, you actually have a much more interesting situation here. And although I don't directly have an answer to your question, the situation does play into a trope that has been bothering recently and which I will just leave here for the time being:
Why is it that no inventor in fiction ever takes research notes? That way, if an important part of your invention / last dose of your cure / etc. is destroyed or used or goes missing or gets stolen -- you can just re-make it. Of course, this does not include those cases or 'rare elements', but can you really always use such a justification?

This is not an attempted thread hijack, I promise...

No problem, I think we can handle a little off-topic here. I don't think your question has any relevance with the OP, right? It's just something that came to your mind, right?

Barring that, I'd say that these inventors are so self-taught that they have huge holes in their methology. They can make great inventions but they also produce messy research notes that in the end are so conflicting that they do more bad than good. Nowadays all scientists take these things for granted that everyone knows them.

[AnimeTheCat]

So, I play good characters 90% of the time, and of that 90% of the time, 50% of the time they're exalted characters vying for sainthood. That being said, I've only had 2 characters achieve this (out of about 100 characters in my lifetime). The primary reason was that they "fell". For me and from anecdotal evidence it was always a build up and a conscious choice of the character. Sometimes it was planned, other times it just fit the character so darn well that it was the best choice for role play and it pushed the story forward beautifully. Every time a character fell it fit these criteria:

1) It was a conscious decision of the character.
2) It wasn't caused by one single event, it was a build-up effect. (think of a meter measuring how much poison you have build up in Dark Souls or something).
3) It wasn't a direct fall straight to evil. The characters were always neutral for a time but still saw no salvation from their Gods so they proceeded to turn to the other side in search of something better.

I don't see anything wrong with the way you described the PC playing their character and losing faith in humanity.

My favorite character, of all time, was a LG Paladin of Heironeous turned Blackguard. This was pre BoED so exalted feats weren't a thing in this game. It all started when the party arrived at a peaceful village and we were helping with simple tasks like chopping firewood and patching roofs. The village got raided that night by goblins which the party got the attention of and drew away. After quite a bit of fighting we noticed that there was a lot of smoke rising from the direction of the village. When we arrived back at the village it was all ablaze and the bodies of the townsfolk were strewn, bloody and battered around the dirt streets and you could still hear the cries of children that had been cut, beaten, or burned. As hard as we tried, we only saved two kids that day. That was it from the whole village of 50-60 people. That made my character seriously question the Gods. Time passed and I had regained my faith in my deities. At the time of the incident we were level 5. The next time this had any relevance was when we reached level 10. The way we played it was via "slow XP" and that was the equivalent of 10 years. We had all gained an age category, but we were still going strong. We were answering a request from a monastery that was having its priests and monks killed in the night without the killer leaving a trace. We all knew this monastery, it was where we left those kids ten years ago. We finally caught the assassin, but the killings kept happening. Turns out there were two assassins, the second of which was responsible for killing the party wizard (she had to move, it was a sad day). When we finally caught the second assassin we dug around and found out that they were the kids we had rescued so long ago. This drove my character to deep depression. When I found out why they were doing it (because they hated the fact that they lived and their parents died), I lost it and went off the deep end. I started breaking my vows to viciously slaughter the orcs and goblins that lived in the hills and I was killing any and all of them, including those too young or old to fight and those who were defenseless. I kept this up and eventually turned my gaze to anyone who imposed any sort of negligence towards anyone which led me to kill mayors, lords, inn keepers who whored out their daughters. Anyone. Cold blooded and relentless. it was gradual and had essentially two tipping points but it worked perfectly for my character.

Its such a cliché story, but it is my favorite to this day. Similar things have caused players who I GM for to fall as well. Typically it starts with a small doubt that gets torn open by heartache. Those who can cut it nut up. Those who can't find a different way, and that way is commonly falling.