Ultimate Ninja Assassin

[DracoKnight]

So playing around with a new character concept (my character in my IRL group's 9th level game is on death's door; demonic arcane poison that a cleric couldn't heal with greater restoration). Building a Shadow Monk/Assassin multiclass and playing an Alert Vhuman. Building him as Rogue 1/Monk 6/Rogue 2,3/Monk 7/Rogue 4-13.

Is there a better way to build a ninja (FEFates: Birthright class), or have I found the best way to do it?

[Lombra]

So playing around with a new character concept (my character in my IRL group's 9th level game is on death's door; demonic arcane poison that a cleric couldn't heal with greater restoration). Building a Shadow Monk/Assassin multiclass and playing an Alert Vhuman. Building him as Rogue 1/Monk 6/Rogue 2,3/Monk 7/Rogue 4-13.

Is there a better way to build a ninja (FEFates: Birthright class), or have I found the best way to do it?

I'd start 6 monk levels, 3 rogue, and then all the way either monk or rogue: level 7 abilities of the classes overlap and it's kind of a waste of time, anyways there are various threads on ninja characters, if you check among those which I started (I don't kow how to put links) there's a very well discussed build (along with links to other similar threads)

[CNagy]

Sneak in 3 levels of Hunter Ranger or Battlemaster Fighter; it doesn't expand your stat reqs at all and adds in some more "Ninja enters a room and everyone dies" either through Horde Breaker or Action Surge. If UA is fair play, Mariner fighting style will give your Ninja some very Ninja-like autoclimbing speed, otherwise you can add some static damaging with Dueling or some extra accuracy to your ranged with Archery.

[Jarlhen]

My issue with this stuff is always that you can't see through Darkness. Warlock is just such an amazing addition to the monk. You need 5 levels of rogue to catch up to Hex (1d6/per attack for a total of 3d6 vs 3d6 sneak attack) and you can see through Darkness. You do absolutely get some nice stuff from the rogue, like expertise and all that. It's just when you dig into it and push come to shove the one big problem with monk is the damage. Hunter can also help immensely there by for hunter's mark and one of the specials. I've never been to keen on the assassin archetype. Combat happens so frequently outside of the character being able to surprise the enemy that I've always felt it was a waste unless you're specifically trying to assassinate someone, which you normally don't. Swashbuckler is more reliable and even thief gives some nifty bonuses.

Essentially my issue is that the thematic choice isn't that appealing from a mechanical point of view. I hate warlock so much, it's just such a good dip from a combat point of view for so many classes. Plus you can hex people actively looking for you so they have disadvantage on perception stuff!

[Gtdead]

My favorite Ninja build is Monk 6/Warlock 2 or 3/Rogue x

I like warlock 3 because of guidance but it's not necessary to the build.
Hex is an amazing boost to a guy that already does 3 attacks per turn and monk isn't the most durable frontliner. Darkness' defensive advantage is extremely important to him too in solo situations.

The damage is similar to full rogue but he gets shadow jump and the best darkvision. Guidance is very nice too, stack it with expertise for huge checks.

[Specter]

As much as I hate to suggest this multiclass, Warlock 2 is solid if going for darkness kills: Devil's Sight goes a long way with Sneak Attack. I'd go for Rogue 6/Monk 14, Diamond Soul is as good a capstone as any.

[Corran]

As others have already mentioned, the lack of darkvision will really hurt you.

On the other hand, assassin-ninja types, need a lot of feat support (more on that later), and multiclass builds often lack in this department, so variant human is probably the best pick (optimization-wise) if ofc you can find a way to bypass the lack of darkvision. One way is to rely on items, but that is an idea I was never comfortable with. The spell darkvision is another way, but burning resources for sth that simple as darkvision is again sth I was never comfortable with (plus it is not always easy to make room for (enough) spells. That is why I like a warlock 2 dip for devil's sight, but even better at least one level in shadow sorcerer (if UA is allowed).

Back to the feats. Assassinating really profits (or more accuratelly, really needs) from alert and lucky. Especially for lucky, I am convinced that it is assassin-types that make the best use of it (as it not only can apply in surprise attacks, but in initiative as well). Those two feats aside, which are a necessity, you have to raise your stats, and since mny multiclass builds often pay the price of multiclassing by having reduced feats/ASIs, this is why I always prefer my assassin-ninja builds to focus in melee, as focusing in range although superior in many ways, puts a lot of competition regarding feat selection. Plus I always favoured the melee approach regarding assassins, it just sits better with my taste.

One last thing. I really want spell support for my assassin-ninja builds, as spells open so many possibilities (from infiltrating and escaping, to tracking down your victim and prepare better your surprise attacks).


Having said all that, this is my favourite assassin-ninja build.
My favourite assassin build in its final form is paladin2/ rogue 3 (assassin)/ warlock 1/ sorcerer 14 (preferably shadow origin for darkvision, so that I can grab human for the much needed extra feat).
Disclaimer: I am totally against paladin 2 dips, though this build is probably the only exception in my book.

Have a look at this thread if you have the time: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...erer-cutthroat

Because I dont remember exactly in how much depth I go into in the above thread, here are a few points:
1) BB (Twinned) + cunning action (disengage) - one of the best uses of sorcery points.
2) Darkness + cunning action hide + alert (works even better if you are of the shadow sorcerous origin, in which case you have advantage on your attacks too).
3) Gr invisibility + cunning action hide (essentially the same trick ass above, though with no collateral damage to your group from darkness, plus you can als twin greater invisibility to help an ally - this is massive).
4) Quicken hold + smite - for when you want to take sth out and you are in a hurry.

The warlock level is important, as it gives you hex (which helps tremendously with your assassination as besides the extra damage it lowers the enemy's initiative, and initiative is key to assassinating). Also, armor of agathys, use it with your high level spell slots (the build ends with an 8th level slot) to increse survivability and dpr, both by a quite significant amount.

The paladin levels are a bit of a hinderance (str 13), though divine smite is what really takes your assassination to the required level. And ofc quicken cantrip adds to that.

The sorcerer spell list is a bit lackluster, though it offers some real gems to an assassin, with etherealness as the capstone at lvl 19 (what better capstone for an assassin?).

For concentration your go-to spells are going to be darkness or gr invisibility, helping you employ maybe the best skirmishing tactics there is. Hold spells for situational uses, and make sure to have either haste or polymorph or sth in these lines as a backup strategy for when you are fighting against sth with good senses.

Metamagics: twinned and quickened are a given, for third metamagic I suggest subtle over heighten.

Feats: Alert, Lucky (those two are crucial to assassins, alert for obvious reasons, lucky is the best feat for assassin, rerolling those surprise round attacks or even initiative can be game-changing). Also resilient con (better than warcaster in this case, the extra hp and better con saves are worth that +2 AC of a shield, plus you are better off with a rapier and a free hand for style reasons imo). Last ASI can go to dex, to raise it to 18, and you are done.

Cantrips and spells are detailed in the thread I provided, if I am not mistaken.

Progression:
Start as a paladin (better hp, but mainly better saves). If shadow sorcerer go with human as darkvision will be taken care of, and for feat grab alert or lucky.
Aim for paladin1/ sorcerer2/ rogue2 at level 5, for darkness.
At level 6 grab a 3rd level in rogue for assassinate.
At level 7 metamagics come into play.
At level 8 divine smite.
At 9, alert or lucky (whatever you didnt take at 1st)
As you gain more and higher level spell slots, your assassinate is going to improve (more and higher level slots to smite).
At level 12, improved invisibility.
At 13, resilient con.
At 14, the warlock level, now is the time, the benefits were mentioned above.
At 17 disintegrate (I involved this spell despite a 14 in charisma and despite not going for heighten spell, because of the rule of cool, you are oing to use it situatonaly, but it is a nice spell that is why I felt to mention it.
At 19, etherealness, what a treat!
At 20, 8th level spell slot, use it to upcast etherealness, or with armor of agathys more likely, or to counterspell that important spell that you really need to counter, or...).

During the levels I didnt mention you get a lot of useful things, like sorcerous origin features, more spell slots and new spellsm sorcery points, etc.


!!!! Most multiclass builds, especially most multiclass assassin builds I ve seen, suffer during normal encounters, though this is not the case for this one. Thanks to the scag cantrips and to a few tricks, you stay relevant throughout the whole game. And although almost every level is important because you get sth really cool, there are no BIG levels upon which the build starts to work normally, you dont need to reach level X so that you can start enjoying this build.


Take a look at the spell selection presented in the thread I linked, I put some time into trying to pick the best spells for an assassin (while also trying to pick some personal favourites here and there without doing much harm optimization-wise). I made an effort so that each spell level has a couple of regular uses and several situational (upcasting spells goes a long way). Balancing your resources in the proper way is extremelly important! (lvl 5 spell slots have the least regular uses, but you can always use them to refuel your sorcery points).

And remember, your spellcasting is mostly utility! But your dark magic juice is what sets you apart from other assassins! Enjoy!

ps: Oh, and this guy fights in melee, hit and run (or hide and seek) tactics.

Edit: Figthing style mariner, breastplate until you get your dex to 18, then you can switch to studded leather if you like, though it is the same really. You can even equip a shield if you really need the extra AC in some specific fights, though you will be better off without it in most cases (and remember, resilient con > warcaster for this guy, dont be fooled by that +2 to AC). Avoid extra attack, you dont need it, you have scag weapon cantrips nd you can make the most of BB. Focus on that as I suggested, dont spread your character. Also avoid TWF, it isnt worth it, again, due to scag cantrips.

Finally, a word about assassin builds. I ve found that the problem with the most recommended assassin builds is that they focus too much on surprise damage, at the cost of effectiveness under normal encounters, to the point that they can either one shot the bad guy and spoil the fun for everyone, or not succeed and then be mediocre during the rest of the encounter. This is not the case with this build. Assassinataion is still right where it should be (powerful, but not ridiculous), and you are not left behind the power curve

Another assassin-build I like (which uses a greatsword surprisingly) is this:
We aim for

fighter (battlemaster) 3/ bladelock 5/ rogue (assassin) 3


In the first case, your best bet is to take the remaining levels as a warlock, or at least go up to warlock 13 and take a 4th level in rogue or fighter for a feat, though I think warlock 14 has more valuee in it. I like feylock for gr invisibility as an alternative to darkness, but fiendlock is arguably the better choice (extra points for how dark one's own luck works with assassinate regarding the enemy's initiative). Final build, fighter3 (BM)/ Fiendlock (blade) 14/ rogue (assassin) 3.

The problem of this build is that it takes some time to flourish. My personal advice is to aim for rogue 2/ warlock 3 asap, but you have to either start or throw an early fighter level for medium armor proficiency. Thus being fighter1/rogue2/warlock3 at level 6 (edit: Start as fighter for medium armor and con save prof). The you take 2 more warlock levels for extra extra attack and 1 more rogue level for assassinate, the order is completely up to you, and it depends on if you want to improve your assassination or your fighting during normal encounters first, putting you at fighter1/rogue3/warlock5 at level 9. Then you take 2 more fightr levels, so you have finally the majority of the tricks you can hope for, being a fighter3/warlock5/rogue3 at level 11. Then finish up as a warlock.

Feats.
At this point you only have 1 ASI/feat from warlock 4, which you will take according to my suggested progression at characer level 6 or 7. GWM is a must, but so are feats like alert and lucky. Actor is also a very cool feat for an assassin with your talents, though you might just not have enough room for it. Between these feats and more that I didnt mention, and pumping your ability scores, I would suggest starting vhuman for this much all needed feat, rather than halforc for some minor cool racial features. You need that feat man, you need all the feats you can get. And since warlock 2 offsets the biggest drawbacks of humans in regard to being an assassin (lack of darkvision), we are cool. My starting stats would be (with the racial increases): STR 16, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 13 with 2 more points remaining. I would invest those 1 of my two remaining points to pump con to 13 if I pwas planning on taking the resilient feat, alternatively I would put those 2 points in either int or wis, if I planned on taking the actor feat, or most commonly, I would put those 2 points to charisma and be done with it. Yeah, with alert, lucky and GWM, and assuming vhuman, you only have room for one more feat/ASI, it is tough to spend it on a feat like actor in good consciense, however funny that might be. Resilient could be a good choice for a feat taken at hight level, in which case resilient con is what you have to plan for, as it will also raise your hp and help with some other stuff as well. Or just pump your str to 18 as your last feat. Too many feats that are useful, so little room.


The trouble with almost all multiclassed assassin builds, is that contrary to a pure assassin rogue, they stay behind the power curve for a long part of their careers. This build is marginally excluded from this category, though there is an uneven distribution of power level-wise, meaning that there are still those very big levels that you have to hit in order to be good at what you are supposed to do, and those levels come a bit later than expected.

The truth is, that as assassination goes, there are builds with better damage output, and as far as usefulness in things besides assassination goes, there are other assassin builds that are more powerful. What I personaly like about this particular assassin build, in regards to other assassin builds, is that it gets an easy and painless access to the scrying spell, and that funny enough it is the only assassin build that uses a heavy weapon (greatsword), as opposed yo the other dex-oriented assassin builds.

Would I call it a one-trick pony? Probably yes, but the trick would be that it uses GWM very efficiently, especially when darkness is on. There is some worrying lack of synergy and some overlap or rather antithesis in regard to the functionality of this build, but oh well...

Regarding a heavy-monk cutthroat, I found two old threads that might be of interest to you. Here, have a look if you want:
1) http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479309-Monk-Rogue-multiclass-path-when-and-what-to-upgrade-to-create-ninja-character&highlight=Ninja+vs+ninja

2) http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?457592-Ninja-vs-ninja-%28vs-ninja-vs-ninja-%29&highlight=Ninja+vs+ninja

[MaxWilson]

My issue with this stuff is always that you can't see through Darkness. Warlock is just such an amazing addition to the monk.

If you're already Alert then Devil's Sight is less valuable, since you already have all the defensive benefits of Devil's Sight (attackers can't see you = they have disadvantage). The only thing Devil's Sight will get you is advantage on attacks (because then you can see them, so you don't take disadvantage to cancel out the advantage from them not being able to see you), which is the less-valuable half of Devil's Sight.

In fact, Alert is better than Devil's Sight defensively because it also works in heavy obscurement like Fog Cloud/Stinking Cloud/when blinded by Hunger of Hadar/etc.

Assassin/Shadow Monk sounds fine without warlock. Watch out for readied actions though, and be prepared to play tricks with your Minor Illusion to set those readied actions off. Get used to using your bow a lot. Also get used to scouting ahead alone--Shadow Monk/Rogues have low DPR but high survivability/stealth, which means they work best as solos instead of part of the party. Your main job is to scout ahead of the party and make sure they never walk into anything unprepared.

-Max

[Rysto]

One issue with Hex is that it costs a bonus action to retarget it, which interferes with your unarmed strike bonus action. If you're taking on a horde this will lower your damage output (but against one big monster it isn't a big deal). Sneak attack doesn't have that problem, although you can't get sneak attack damage with your unarmed strike (so try not to miss with your weapon attack :D)

[Corran]

If you're already Alert then Devil's Sight is less valuable, since you already have all the defensive benefits of Devil's Sight (attackers can't see you = they have disadvantage). The only thing Devil's Sight will get you is advantage on attacks (because then you can see them, so you don't take disadvantage to cancel out the advantage from them not being able to see you), which is the less-valuable half of Devil's Sight.

In fact, Alert is better than Devil's Sight defensively because it also works in heavy obscurement like Fog Cloud/Stinking Cloud/when blinded by Hunger of Hadar/etc.
A few thoughts on this. First, devil's sight compensates for the lack of darkvision which is essential to a scouter. Although it doesnt work in dim light, so ''compensates'' might be a bit of an exhaggeration. Secondly, I think that the advantage on your attacks is more important than the disadvanatage on incoming attacks, as cunning action will let you hide and thus you wont get attacked that often. Edit: Nevermind, I though we were talking about a build that involved rogue.


Assassin/Shadow Monk sounds fine without warlock. Watch out for readied actions though
Had grapples in mind. Thankfully shadow step can prove really useful here.

and be prepared to play tricks with your Minor Illusion to set those readied actions off.
Can you please provide one example? My imagination always betrays me when I have to use illusions.


Get used to using your bow a lot.
Again I come up with a question, as I have not much experience with this combo, though I plan on using it often from now on in my campaign, so I am wondering about possible drawbacks. Is that because you think it is likely that most enemies will just spend their turns running away from the obscured area?

[Tanarii]

A few thoughts on this. First, devil's sight compensates for the lack of darkvision which is essential to a scouter.I thought Darkvision was one of the spells Way of the Shadow Monks could cast using Ki?

[MaxWilson]

A few thoughts on this. First, devil's sight compensates for the lack of darkvision which is essential to a scouter. Although it doesnt work in dim light, so ''compensates'' might be a bit of an exhaggeration. Secondly, I think that the advantage on your attacks is more important than the disadvanatage on incoming attacks, as cunning action will let you hide and thus you wont get attacked that often. Edit: Nevermind, I though we were talking about a build that involved rogue.

Shadow Monks never lack darkvision, so that's a non-issue. Because of the way heavy obscurement works (can see out but not in), you already get advantage on many ranged attacks. For melee attacks you can withdraw without needing to Disengage, so the only thing Devil's Sight is giving you is the chance to melee-attack at advantage instead of attacking at range. For a party-oriented build that might be fine, but my recent experience with Rogue 2/Shadow Monk 7 was with a solo (NPC bad guy) and my other Shadow Monk experience is with PCs who are comfortable scouting on ahead of the party alone. In both cases, offensive advantage is relatively unimportant because defensive advantage is so powerful--who cares if you are only doing 18 points of damage per round instead of 30 if you get three or five free rounds of attacks without retaliation?


Had grapples in mind. Thankfully shadow step can prove really useful here.

I was referring more to counterfire. Once the PCs (or monster, as the case may be) get their act together they can start readying actions to shoot back at you as soon as you shoot at them.


Can you please provide one example? My imagination always betrays me when I have to use illusions.

Well, if the PCs have a readied action to shoot back at you in your Darkness as soon as they hear your arrow "whooosh" towards them, cast a Minor Illusion on the round prior, and then on the round you attack, precede your attack with a Whooshing arrow sound so they waste their readied actions attacking the wrong square.

I generally like audible illusions more than static visible ones, so insane cackling and villain monologuing are also things I would do from a Minor Illusion while the fight was going on. Remember it doesn't take an action to change the sound.


Again I come up with a question, as I have not much experience with this combo, though I plan on using it often from now on in my campaign, so I am wondering about possible drawbacks. Is that because you think it is likely that most enemies will just spend their turns running away from the obscured area?

Not entirely. It's a bit more subtle than that. It's the fact that it is very powerful to not have any weak points. If all of an enemy's possible responses are bad for him and good for you, you've just checkmated him, and it remains only to play things out.

Mobile monks are quite good at defensive melee fighting (and Mobile is so obviously good for monks that I tend to forget that there exist non-Mobile monks), but if you try to rush into melee every round it's easy to wind up in a place where you accidentally let an enemy get an attack in on you by ending your turn too close to him. (How easy it is depends on the initiative rules in use at the table--I use an initiative system which deliberately makes melee kiting harder and more unpredictable.) But monks are already very strong at ranged combat due to their missile catch and good shieldless AC, and if you can ensure that both sides have disadvantage on their attacks (if only your enemy has disadvantage, that's fine too) such as being at long range or by lying prone, then the missile catch becomes even stronger. (I've seen 7th level shadow monks take out entire squads of hobgoblin archers largely on the strength of missile catching.) So if you put Mobile together with patience and the willingness to win a medium-range missile duel via missile catch, your enemy has no good options. Even if he tries to hide behind total cover, you'll just sneak up on him under PWT, beat him unconscious with your fists, and leap away out of range. Lose/lose/lose situation.

(Unfortunately, missile catch does not work on Eldritch Blast. Half the damage suffered by the aforementioned Rogue 2/Shadow Monk 7 NPC villain came from Eldritch Blast. I think it was 7 points of damage from an arrow, and another 7 from an Eldritch Blast hit, and by then half the party was down and they surrendered the treasure map. Anyway, magic is the weak point of this build.)

[Waazraath]

My take on this:

Monk (shadow) 6 (for darkness, shadow teleport, extra attack, stunning fist, etc); rogue 3 (assasin) for extra damage, expertise in stealth, extra damage with sneak attack; warlock 3 for telepathy, an invisibile familiar as extra scout, see in (magical) darkness, a ranged attack, temporary hp and extra damage with armor of argathys (or extra damage with hex); fighter (battlemaster) 3 for extra damage with action surge, fighting style, and maneuvers (incl. a reaction attack maneuver); monk +5, for extra ki, invisibility at will, and other monk goodies.

You can be a devestating assasin, sneak with expertise stealth, get to 60 feet of a target, teleport in, surprise round, 2 attacks, action surge, another 2 attacks (and another 2 with flurry if the DM rules that the initial teleport wasn't part of the surprise round), every hit is a critical hit, all attacks made with advantage, roll initiative, win (in most cases, with maxed out dex), make another 4 attacks (2 from flurry), again all of them with advantage, or make two attacks and use the bonus action to create a 60 ft distance again to hostiles. Use superiority dice as needed.

High damage, strong fighter / martial artist, with lots of supernatural (killer) abilities.

Edit: forgot to mention the poison kit proficiency and disguise self at will.

[DivisibleByZero]

Shadow Monk/Rogues have low DPR

Ummm.... No.
Straight rogue, attack action: 1d8+10d6+5 ~42
OR dual wielding, attack plus bonus,higher chance to land SA: 12d6+5 ~41

Monk6/Rogue13/Whatever, attack action, higher chance to land SA: 8d6+5, +1d6+5 ~42.5
OR using martial arts with bonus: 8d6+5, +1d6+5, +1d6+5 ~51
OR using Flurry with bonus: 8d6+5, +1d6+5, +1d6+5, +1d6+5 ~59.5

6 levels of monk increases DPR in every way. Not by a ton, but it does.

You're trading 3d6SA (10.5) for another 1d6+5 (8.5). That's two points lower, but greatly increases your chance to land SA, which has a big impact on your overall DPR.
Getting extra attack on a rogue is HUGE for DPR, and even more so with Flurry.
There isn't much difference in damage with only the attack action, but it frees up your bonus action without lowering your chance to land SA, and if you decide to use your bonus on attacking it just goes up. That's huge.

[Tanarii]

When you calculate DPR for a Rogue, either Monk MC Flurry or straight Rogue TWF, do you do it under the assumption they'll only use their bonus action if they miss with the attacks from the Attack Action? ie will use their Bonus action for other purposes once they've done they've landed SA.

Not saying it should be done that way. But I can see that particularly common for a Rogue with Cunning Action available, as that's a resource free bonus action option. Unlike a single-class Monk, in which the attack is the resource free bonus action option.

[MaxWilson]

Ummm.... No.
Straight rogue, attack action: 1d8+10d6+5 ~42
OR dual wielding, attack plus bonus,higher chance to land SA: 12d6+5 ~41

Monk6/Rogue13/Whatever, attack action, higher chance to land SA: 8d6+5, +1d6+5 ~42.5
OR using martial arts with bonus: 8d6+5, +1d6+5, +1d6+5 ~51
OR using Flurry with bonus: 8d6+5, +1d6+5, +1d6+5, +1d6+5 ~59.5

6 levels of monk increases DPR in every way. Not by a ton, but it does.

You're trading 3d6SA (10.5) for another 1d6+5 (8.5). That's two points lower, but greatly increases your chance to land SA, which has a big impact on your overall DPR.
Getting extra attack on a rogue is HUGE for DPR, and even more so with Flurry.
There isn't much difference in damage with only the attack action, but it frees up your bonus action without lowering your chance to land SA, and if you decide to use your bonus on attacking it just goes up. That's huge.

That's not the kind of build I was referring to. Rogue 2/Shadow Monk X.