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Sergio
2016-05-16, 09:12 AM
I'm roleplaying an evil (still dunno if chaotic\neutral) barbarian in a neutral-good aligned party. I'm wondering if you've got any tips on how I would be able to maximise my character's potential;also how I should act and what would a smart character do.

Know that I pray Malar, and I revel in fighting. Not to imply that if there is a particular worthy opponent, I'm used to skin them.

> For example, my party is used to bury their opponents; be it for hiding them from other people, or for respect. I'm pretty sure that, if meeting certain powerful opponents, if humanoid, I will ask them to leave their corpse to me to pray respect, while going inside the forest to skin them and offer their remains to Malar.

So. Tips? Roleplaying tips? Smart evil tips? Thank you

GrayDeath
2016-05-16, 09:25 AM
Well, dont take it the wrong way, but "Barbarian Follower of Malar" is quite close to the furthest from Smart Evil if you ask me.
THe probably low Int of most Barbarians nonwithstaning.

If you want to paly Smart Evil play a Cleric of Asmodeus, a Wizard bent on World Domination, or maybe an LE Warder who only works with the Party because he gave his word (a Concept I am aiming to play some time) and just seems neutral/Lawful to them so far, or somesuch. ;)


If youa re mainly asking on "how do I prevent my nonPaladin Group from finding out": Hide, restzrain yourself, blame your rage for when you slip up.
Still doesn`t make your Character SMart Evil, but Surviveable.

Tiri
2016-05-16, 09:30 AM
Hey, CE can be as smart as LE. As for being smart and evil, both are separate things that simply happen to occur simultaneously in some cases. Although of course your intelligence might be used for evil purposes.

From the limited information you've given, I would say being smart would simply amount to concealing your more questionable activities well.

khadgar567
2016-05-16, 09:33 AM
might well as summon the master of evil in this forum red fell, red fell, red fell

Amphetryon
2016-05-16, 09:37 AM
might well as summon the master of evil in this forum red fell, red fell, red fell

Let me help: Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel.

Sergio
2016-05-16, 09:43 AM
Well, dont take it the wrong way, but "Barbarian Follower of Malar" is quite close to the furthest from Smart Evil if you ask me.
THe probably low Int of most Barbarians nonwithstaning.


You are not wrong in your 'prejudice'. But you have to take my background in mind, and know that I'm far from a beast in my acting.

In fact, I would like to share with you an episode. My tribe is in the verge of extinction, because we are hunted down by Sun Elves, that do hate us. I was tasked to kill a sun elf inhabitating the forest, but when I discovered that she was a young woman, that couldn't pose any threat; I didn't try to kill her; instead, I protected her, even if I didn't mean to; in doing so I followed the dogma of Malar:

Slay not the young, the pregnant, or deepspawn so that prey will remain plentiful

Beside, my barbarian has high stats, and intelligence and wisdom are not lacking (but they are not as high as strength and const, given that their value is around 14-15)





Hey, CE can be as smart as LE. As for being smart and evil, both are separate things that simply happen to occur simultaneously in some cases. Although of course your intelligence might be used for evil purposes.

From the limited information you've given, I would say being smart would simply amount to concealing your more questionable activities well.

depends. What I'm asking is the following: as a barbarian, leaving my tribe, do I really have to have a purpose?

might well as summon the master of evil in this forum red fell, red fell, red fell
wat


The real question for a dm that only likes good oriented party, is: How do I twist my Dm's expectation? He really rewards roleplaying. But I'm wondering on how to do so.

Max_Killjoy
2016-05-16, 09:47 AM
The secret to "smart evil" is DO NOT do things "because evil". The surest sign of stupid evil is a character who does things because they're evil, rather than to accomplish anything.

Have goals and ambitions and plans and desires, and decide how to achieve them -- then remove moral or ethical consideration from the character's self-restraint. Act without conscience, pity, remorse, or empathy. Be ruthlessly pragmatic.

The character CAN still restrain their actions based on utility. Don't randomly take anger out of nearby henchmen -- you need those guys to carry your spears and loot. Don't betray your party "because evil", only betray them when it's absolutely worth it. Don't openly burn villages, rape the fields, and pillage the women, that will just cause trouble you don't need. Etc.

And remember that your character very likely does not see himself as evil and isn't trying to "be evil".

Red Fel
2016-05-16, 09:51 AM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-elyg-KRxHfY/VNS09UML7TI/AAAAAAAANWk/H1qsaihh5CY/s1600/tumblr_mrh35iZIyJ1sfp1fio1_500.gif


might well as summon the master of evil in this forum red fell, red fell, red fell

Ahh, and here we are. There's one L, though. One L, and one E, in Fel, appropriately enough.

Hello, new friend. So you want to play Smart Evil, hmm? Let's get started.

First, let's get a baseline for your character. You're playing a CE/NE Barbarian devoted to Malar, hm? Out of curiosity, which edition of D&D is this? (You might consider moving the thread to the appropriate subforum.) Now, in 3.5, Malar was CE. Since I don't like 4e's alignment spectrum, and you haven't specified an edition, I'm going to go with the 3.5 version of Malar.

Let's go over some basic premises of Malar. First, make your kills bloody and long. Given that PCs are generally murderhobos, this shouldn't be a problem. Second, spurn civilization. For a Barbarian, not a problem, just make sure that "spurn" doesn't mean "burn every building, especially orphanages." In fact, if you look into the lore of the Hunts, Malarites avoided killing the weak, sick, pregnant, and young; there's almost a certain honor to preying exclusively on the strong and healthy.

Now, ideology established, let's talk Smart. Smart Evil boils down to three elements
You have a plan.
You have the means to execute your plan, and the willingness to employ them.
You have the foresight to not jeopardize your plan by being stupid.
Herein lies the problem - I have no idea what your character's plan is. Ideology aside, you've told me nothing about your character as a person - his wants, his needs, his goals, his hopes, his dreams, his fears. It is possible to play engaging and compelling Evil without necessarily playing Smart Evil (so long as you don't play Stupid Evil); I don't know enough about the character to advise in this respect.

So, instead, let's touch on more general RP tips. You're a Barbarian who reveres Malar; this is an easy one. We can play straight to tropes here. You're a strong, savage individual with a twisted sense of honor - there is no glory in preying on the weak, so you test the steel of your soul against the strong. You don't mess with your party, because you emulate the beasts, and the party is your Pack - injury to them is injury to you, and will be met with brutal and stomach-churning retaliation. Prey that provides an admirable hunt is rewarded with a quicker death - not a quick death, but quicker. Most prey does not deserve this honor.

A simple Barbarian deserves a simple worldview. Here's one: All creatures fall into one of three categories - predators, prey, and inferior prey. All predators are prey to something. Inferior prey is that which is not worthy of the hunt, or that which needs to survive so that prey can continue to exist (e.g. the pregnant and the young, whose existence ensures future prey). Your Barbarian views all things in terms of predator/prey dynamics, including combat, religion, and social interactions. Feel free to compare the actions of magistrates with hungry sharks; regard an enemy as a sheep pretending to be a wolf; and so on. Aspire to become an alpha predator, but respect those who could predate you. Smile a lot - showing teeth is a sign of hostility in the animal world.

To be affable to a non-Evil party, or even an Evil one, show loyalty to them. Not L-level loyalty, but respect their strength. Even if you have contempt for the weak among your party, they are part of your Pack, and will be protected. That doesn't mean you can't push them to be stronger - and your character's idea of "help" in becoming stronger may be the equivalent of "if you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball." Just remember that, when playing Evil, you have two obligations: (1) to have a reason to stay with the party, and (2) to give the party a reason to keep you around. Be a good friend, despite being Evil, and they'll put up with your terrifying eccentricities.

I can offer more once I know more about your character.

Democratus
2016-05-16, 10:34 AM
Remember: Alignment is how you treat people you don't care about.

An evil character never needs to be evil to his own party.

Segev
2016-05-16, 03:11 PM
As a follower of Malar, finding the sun elf maiden in your wilderness whom you were tasked to slay becomes an opportunity to turn her into TWO categories of things-you-do-not-hunt. If you are going to protect her, she is to become stronger (to be worthier prey...or to learn to be a hunter worthy to stand beside you). Or perhaps she should bear your children. This one could step on all sorts of alarm-bell toes for a Good-aligned party, so be careful how you present it. Stockholm syndrome is your friend, here: terrify her, but protect her and show her periodic "kindness" in how you protect and provide for her. Offer her opportunities to earn your praise with her strength.

By the time the rest of the party realizes how you met your...companion...they will easily want to believe her version of the tale: that you rescued and protected her. If she has become strong, then perhaps it is even, to your mind, true.

Be the noble savage, with an emphasis on "savage." Play up the harsh realities of your credo of strength and hard action justified by necessity and scarcity of resources. But show respect for others' strength. Toy with prey; too weak, and you need to make it a challenge. Strong enough to be a rival, and you don't want to catch them at anything but their best. Finish things only when they become boring, or when they've provided ENOUGH of a hunt, a challenge, when you've taken them at their best or in spite of every effort to give them a "fighting chance." And be capricious; you can decide to toy with something today, and slaughter efficiently tomorrow. Whatever makes this hunt most fun and glorious to you, this time.

But share generously with your friends. While sometimes, that might make them uncomfortable (when you share that which makes them squeamish), you should only do so to tease, and not in bad sport. As noted, they are your "pack," and they are important to you as allies and even as those for whom you care. Share, therefore, in the things they enjoy, and while you may deride things which make them "soft," be willing to let them have that share of spoils, if needs be.

I would avoid "if you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball" sorts of training. No; you're a hunter, and you teach strength by example and by letting them sink or swim on their own. You teach strength by not providing the asked-for helping hand, or by not letting them know it is nearby, if they are in what might be over their heads. You honor your allies by assuming they can handle it, even if they've proven in the past that they cannot. Step in only at the last moment. If you do it stealthily, you will appear to be "the cavalry" who saved them. IF you do it openly, they may be hurt, but they will still know you DID save them. Explain, possibly even with what passes for gentleness for you, that you believed they needed to learn to try. And that you will be slower to help next time. But be willing to spend the time with them to show them how to improve in safety. Their strength is your strength, after all.

But those who are not part of your pack are worthy of no such thing; for them, you watch to see if they are worthy to be hunted. If they fail, they die and are not worthy. If they succeed, they are worthy...and thus will die anyway, but now with the honor of it being by your blades.

In short, to your party, you are the noble savage. A little rough around the edges, but not mean. To those outside the party, you are mean but capricious and cruel in your toying with them. And you don't slaughter things useful to your pack. Don't ever do something for the evulz. You have goals, even if they're just "for the hunt." While you may spurn civilization, you do not destroy it as a general rule. It does, after all, produce wonderful rivals.

And destroy, utterly and cruelly, those who harm your party.

The Great Wyrm
2016-05-16, 11:45 PM
As a follower of Malar, finding the sun elf maiden in your wilderness whom you were tasked to slay becomes an opportunity to turn her into TWO categories of things-you-do-not-hunt. If you are going to protect her, she is to become stronger (to be worthier prey...or to learn to be a hunter worthy to stand beside you). Or perhaps she should bear your children.

Please pass the brain bleach.

khadgar567
2016-05-17, 03:09 AM
As a follower of Malar, finding the sun elf maiden in your wilderness whom you were tasked to slay becomes an opportunity to turn her into TWO categories of things-you-do-not-hunt. If you are going to protect her, she is to become stronger (to be worthier prey...or to learn to be a hunter worthy to stand beside you). Or perhaps she should bear your children. This one could step on all sorts of alarm-bell toes for a Good-aligned party, so be careful how you present it. Stockholm syndrome is your friend, here: terrify her, but protect her and show her periodic "kindness" in how you protect and provide for her. Offer her opportunities to earn your praise with her strength.

By the time the rest of the party realizes how you met your...companion...they will easily want to believe her version of the tale: that you rescued and protected her. If she has become strong, then perhaps it is even, to your mind, true.

Be the noble savage, with an emphasis on "savage." Play up the harsh realities of your credo of strength and hard action justified by necessity and scarcity of resources. But show respect for others' strength. Toy with prey; too weak, and you need to make it a challenge. Strong enough to be a rival, and you don't want to catch them at anything but their best. Finish things only when they become boring, or when they've provided ENOUGH of a hunt, a challenge, when you've taken them at their best or in spite of every effort to give them a "fighting chance." And be capricious; you can decide to toy with something today, and slaughter efficiently tomorrow. Whatever makes this hunt most fun and glorious to you, this time.

But share generously with your friends. While sometimes, that might make them uncomfortable (when you share that which makes them squeamish), you should only do so to tease, and not in bad sport. As noted, they are your "pack," and they are important to you as allies and even as those for whom you care. Share, therefore, in the things they enjoy, and while you may deride things which make them "soft," be willing to let them have that share of spoils, if needs be.

I would avoid "if you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball" sorts of training. No; you're a hunter, and you teach strength by example and by letting them sink or swim on their own. You teach strength by not providing the asked-for helping hand, or by not letting them know it is nearby, if they are in what might be over their heads. You honor your allies by assuming they can handle it, even if they've proven in the past that they cannot. Step in only at the last moment. If you do it stealthily, you will appear to be "the cavalry" who saved them. IF you do it openly, they may be hurt, but they will still know you DID save them. Explain, possibly even with what passes for gentleness for you, that you believed they needed to learn to try. And that you will be slower to help next time. But be willing to spend the time with them to show them how to improve in safety. Their strength is your strength, after all.

But those who are not part of your pack are worthy of no such thing; for them, you watch to see if they are worthy to be hunted. If they fail, they die and are not worthy. If they succeed, they are worthy...and thus will die anyway, but now with the honor of it being by your blades.

In short, to your party, you are the noble savage. A little rough around the edges, but not mean. To those outside the party, you are mean but capricious and cruel in your toying with them. And you don't slaughter things useful to your pack. Don't ever do something for the evulz. You have goals, even if they're just "for the hunt." While you may spurn civilization, you do not destroy it as a general rule. It does, after all, produce wonderful rivals.

And destroy, utterly and cruelly, those who harm your party.


Please pass the brain bleach.
and the second master of evil spoke ladies and gentlemen preys and predators segev the corporate evil overlord of regulars cast

Sergio
2016-05-17, 09:11 AM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-elyg-KRxHfY/VNS09UML7TI/AAAAAAAANWk/H1qsaihh5CY/s1600/tumblr_mrh35iZIyJ1sfp1fio1_500.gif



Ahh, and here we are. There's one L, though. One L, and one E, in Fel, appropriately enough.

Hello, new friendcut
What an insightful reply. Thanks to you, I was able to paint my physological background and my character is now accepted as it is by my DM (that is usually strictly against bad-aligned people joining the party)

I admit that for now I do not have a purpose. I think that my main motivation, is for now, power?
In fact, I'm kinda undecided about my purpose: I asked the shaman to give me hints on how I could become stronger, and he told me to go inside the forest and inhabit it alone; those who are deemed worthy, would find an answer given by the forest itself.

It is here, in fact, that I've met a druid; this is the end of my background and where my DM will make my journey begin; I told him I wish to get in touch with my animalistic side, and the fist of the forest prestige class was the first one that came to my mind.

My dm is strict on the fact that not everyone is worth of a prestige class; and according on how my trial goes, I could also be rejected and my trial to become fist of the forest be unsuccessful.

1) But, if I'm able to get it, what should my purpose be? I fear I may be unidirectional in my approach if I lack purpose: to become stronger is the purpose of every character that is inside a party. So, how should I approach the whole thing?

2) And beside, you asked me to treat my party as my pack. I was asked by my DM how should I join the party, if there is something in particular that should be happening.
My question is: why would a barbarian following Malar join a pack? Wouldn't I be testing them, just for the sake of it? How could I make my joining meaningful ? Because a part of me tells that by following Malar, I should at least challenge them to see if they are worthy of my companionship. But maybe, that's the thought of a 'stupid evil character'.


3)It's the first time that I play evil, and I find it hard to understand how I should perceive or at least act evil. Sometimes it kinda reminds me "if you can't gain anything from it, don't put yourself on it". But this seems like a strict view.

And you, thanks for listening to me.
Thanks really a lot.





By the time the rest of the party realizes how you met your...companion...they will easily want to believe her version of the tale: that you rescued and protected her. If she has become strong, then perhaps it is even, to your mind, true.

Be the noble savage, with an emphasis on "savage." Play up the harsh realities of your credo of strength and hard action justified by necessity and scarcity of resources. But show respect for others' strength. Toy with prey; too weak, and you need to make it a challenge. Strong enough to be a rival, and you don't want to catch them at anything but their best. Finish things only when they become boring, or when they've provided ENOUGH of a hunt, a challenge, when you've taken them at their best or in spite of every effort to give them a "fighting chance." And be capricious; you can decide to toy with something today, and slaughter efficiently tomorrow. Whatever makes this hunt most fun and glorious to you, this time.

But share generously with your friends. While sometimes, that might make them uncomfortable (when you share that which makes them squeamish), you should only do so to tease, and not in bad sport. As noted, they are your "pack," and they are important to you as allies and even as those for whom you care. Share, therefore, in the things they enjoy, and while you may deride things which make them "soft," be willing to let them have that share of spoils, if needs be.

I would avoid "if you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball" sorts of training. No; you're a hunter, and you teach strength by example and by letting them sink or swim on their own. You teach strength by not providing the asked-for helping hand, or by not letting them know it is nearby, if they are in what might be over their heads. You honor your allies by assuming they can handle it, even if they've proven in the past that they cannot. Step in only at the last moment. If you do it stealthily, you will appear to be "the cavalry" who saved them. IF you do it openly, they may be hurt, but they will still know you DID save them. Explain, possibly even with what passes for gentleness for you, that you believed they needed to learn to try. And that you will be slower to help next time. But be willing to spend the time with them to show them how to improve in safety. Their strength is your strength, after all.

But those who are not part of your pack are worthy of no such thing; for them, you watch to see if they are worthy to be hunted. If they fail, they die and are not worthy. If they succeed, they are worthy...and thus will die anyway, but now with the honor of it being by your blades.

In short, to your party, you are the noble savage. A little rough around the edges, but not mean. To those outside the party, you are mean but capricious and cruel in your toying with them. And you don't slaughter things useful to your pack. Don't ever do something for the evulz. You have goals, even if they're just "for the hunt." While you may spurn civilization, you do not destroy it as a general rule. It does, after all, produce wonderful rivals.

And destroy, utterly and cruelly, those who harm your party.

Okay, thank you. I'm wondering. Would a barbarian of Malar try to 'convert' other barbarians (We got one in the party), or share at least with them his religious creed?

My dm told me in advance, that our cleric will find her sister in dire danger and probably slave to someone; there is also a chance we will find her in a prison, beaten up truly badly. My DM wishes to test the "faith" of the cleric of my party.

As a barbarian of Malar, how would I approach such a situation?

1) I'm sort of sure that I will protect the cleric and his sister;
2) A part of me tells that I would persuade the cleric that his creed and worship did nothing to help her sister; such a thing would have never happened if he was to worship Malar and be educated along such ways.
3) And the third part; I'm pretty sure that I could persuade him to accept my offer and convert, if I followed Malar teaching. Would it be too civilized to do that?

Red Fel
2016-05-17, 09:35 AM
What an insightful reply. Thanks to you, I was able to paint my physological background and my character is now accepted as it is by my DM (that is usually strictly against bad-aligned people joining the party)

And another convert to the cause.


I admit that for now I do not have a purpose. I think that my main motivation, is for now, power?
In fact, I'm kinda undecided about my purpose: I asked the shaman to give me hints on how I could become stronger, and he told me to go inside the forest and inhabit it alone; those who are deemed worthy, would find an answer given by the forest itself.

It is here, in fact, that I've met a druid; this is the end of my background and where my DM will make my journey begin; I told him I wish to get in touch with my animalistic side, and the fist of the forest prestige class was the first one that came to my mind.

My dm is strict on the fact that not everyone is worth of a prestige class; and according on how my trial goes, I could also be rejected and my trial to become fist of the forest be unsuccessful.

Power is indeed a practical and reasonable objective for an Evil character. And it's fitting for a more primal one. Similarly, Fist of the Forest is a great fit for the concept. If you're feeling particularly vicious, you might also consider Frostrager, but that's for another time.


1) But, if I'm able to get it, what should my purpose be? I fear I may be unidirectional in my approach if I lack purpose: to become stronger is the purpose of every character that is inside a party. So, how should I approach the whole thing?

2) And beside, you asked me to treat my party as my pack. I was asked by my DM how should I join the party, if there is something in particular that should be happening.

Good questions. And perhaps that can be part of your character's story arc - he, like you, is aimless. He seeks power, as most Evil characters do, but he does not yet know how he will wield it, or to what end.

As for how you should join the party, a simple option is to witness them doing something that earns your character's respect. Your character is a predator; he respects other predators. If there is someone in the party who is strong and brutal, and you get to see that firsthand, you may approach with appreciation. Being Evil doesn't mean you can't be friendly; to the contrary, you kind of have to be, if only that heroes feel conflicted about fighting you.


My question is: why would a barbarian following Malar join a pack? Wouldn't I be testing them, just for the sake of it? How could I make my joining meaningful ? Because a part of me tells that by following Malar, I should at least challenge them to see if they are worthy of my companionship. But maybe, that's the thought of a 'stupid evil character'.

A bit, yeah. You don't have to test everyone, at least not personally - adventurers are "tested" enough for you to like what you see. And even a Barbarian worshiping the Beastlord isn't so foolish as to presume himself unstoppable - there is strength in numbers. And if your character emulates beasts, they tend to travel in packs, so there must be something to it.

Don't challenge the PCs, is my point. It's not a great way to start a relationship.


3)It's the first time that I play evil, and I find it hard to understand how I should perceive or at least act evil. Sometimes it kinda reminds me "if you can't gain anything from it, don't put yourself on it". But this seems like a strict view.

It's a start. Think of it this way.

Evil is inherently selfish and goal-oriented. That is (1) Evil is willing to exploit others for its own benefit, and (2) Evil is willing to do whatever it takes to get what it wants. That said, "acting Evil" is a broad, nebulous thing. It's not how Evil acts generally, it's how your Evil character acts specifically.

Let's look at some things your character wants.
His pack. The pack is a symbol of status in the beast kingdom. A strong pack means that each pack member is strong. So he wants to belong to a strong pack to reflect his own strength. Further, any insult or injury to one pack member is insult or injury to all, so he wants to protect his pack, and in doing so protect himself.
His faith. He reveres Malar. This means he wants to be brutal, vicious, and violent in the hunt. He wants to be an alpha predator who kills his prey slowly, savoring their fear. He also wants prey worthy of a predator like him - the wolf feeds on the rabbit, not the ant.
Power. Without fangs, the wolf is a sheep. Without claws, the bear is a cub. Power defines his status; it is everything he can hope to achieve.
So, from there, your character can simply view everything in light of these priorities. If he has a chance to advance one, he will be inclined to take it, unless it conflicts with another. For example, he might forego a chance at personal power if it risked jeopardizing his pack.

The thing to remember is that, generally, Evil looks at things in terms of power dynamics. Will this make me stronger, or expose my vulnerability? Will this make me appear soft, or place me in a position of advantage?


Okay, thank you. I'm wondering. Would a barbarian of Malar try to 'convert' other barbarians (We got one in the party), or share at least with them his religious creed?

If he's NE, maybe; if he's CE, probably not. CE is fairly ruggedly individualistic; trying to get people to see things your way isn't quite their speed. That's not to say he wouldn't "talk up" Malar, but he wouldn't force his faith, either.


My dm told me in advance, that our cleric will find her sister in dire danger and probably slave to someone; there is also a chance we will find her in a prison, beaten up truly badly. My DM wishes to test the "faith" of the cleric of my party.

As a barbarian of Malar, how would I approach such a situation?

Well, as a Chaotic, you'd probably prefer personal freedom to slavery (but see Drow, who are the most backwards CE imaginable). That said, you'd probably have general contempt for the weak; even if she doesn't qualify as adequate prey, a creature that can't protect itself will die anyway. On the other hand, your party Cleric only needs to say one thing to draw your attention: "She is family." Family is pack, the pack is family. If she is family of your family, she is family; even if not, having a sister held captive creates a weakness for your Cleric, and a weakness in your pack cannot be tolerated.


1) I'm sort of sure that I will protect the cleric and his sister;

A good response both in- and out-of-character.


2) A part of me tells that I would persuade the cleric that his creed and worship did nothing to help her sister; such a thing would have never happened if he was to worship Malar and be educated along such ways.

Off-hand remarks are tolerable, but again, don't push it; you don't want to have a character who's a jerk.


3) And the third part; I'm pretty sure that I could persuade him to accept my offer and convert, if I followed Malar teaching. Would it be too civilized to do that?

Following Malar's teachings is the opposite of civilized; embodying Malar's teachings by example, likewise, is the opposite of civilized. If you living the Malar high life inspires others to do the same, you haven't done anything wrong. Evil, sure, but not wrong.

Geddy2112
2016-05-17, 09:49 AM
What an insightful reply. Thanks to you, I was able to paint my physological background and my character is now accepted as it is by my DM (that is usually strictly against bad-aligned people joining the party)

I admit that for now I do not have a purpose. I think that my main motivation, is for now, power?
In fact, I'm kinda undecided about my purpose: I asked the shaman to give me hints on how I could become stronger, and he told me to go inside the forest and inhabit it alone; those who are deemed worthy, would find an answer given by the forest itself.

It is here, in fact, that I've met a druid; this is the end of my background and where my DM will make my journey begin; I told him I wish to get in touch with my animalistic side, and the fist of the forest prestige class was the first one that came to my mind.

My dm is strict on the fact that not everyone is worth of a prestige class; and according on how my trial goes, I could also be rejected and my trial to become fist of the forest be unsuccessful.

1) But, if I'm able to get it, what should my purpose be? I fear I may be unidirectional in my approach if I lack purpose: to become stronger is the purpose of every character that is inside a party. So, how should I approach the whole thing?

2) And beside, you asked me to treat my party as my pack. I was asked by my DM how should I join the party, if there is something in particular that should be happening.
My question is: why would a barbarian following Malar join a pack? Wouldn't I be testing them, just for the sake of it? How could I make my joining meaningful ? Because a part of me tells that by following Malar, I should at least challenge them to see if they are worthy of my companionship. But maybe, that's the thought of a 'stupid evil character'.

3)It's the first time that I play evil, and I find it hard to understand how I should perceive or at least act evil. Sometimes it kinda reminds me "if you can't gain anything from it, don't put yourself on it". But this seems like a strict view.

And you, thanks for listening to me.
Thanks really a lot.

Power is probably the easiest motivation for an evil character to have. It fits neutral evil the best, as they don't care about the ways, means, or details, they just want it. If you are seeking animalistic natural power, you are probably wanting to become the top of the food chain in the predator prey tree others have mentioned. You want to be the top dog, the apex predator, harder faster better and stronger than anything else. You won't fail that trial, you will be the best that ever attempted it.

The difference between you and the party is how far you will go and what lines you will cross to get it. If it means that you have to bulk on protein shakes made of the finest orphans, sell your soul to a dark deity, you won't hesitate to become the most powerful thing you can be. Obviously you won't do anything stupid as it will get you killed and you have to keep going to get more power. You are not going to risk losing what you have just to commit evil for the sake of evil. But when it is a legitimate chance to get ahead, you don't mind breaking eggs to make an omelette. Breaking eggs to make an omelette is fine, regardless of how much they scream, beg, how many you break, or how brutally you cook em. Just don't throw eggs on the ground randomly because reasons. People and things are a resource, don't waste them. That is another good way to be evil-utterly objectify everything and everyone, including the party(but don't let them know this). It will prevent you from axing the cleric because you know they will save you if you go down, and even though you could throw the feeble arcane caster through a wall with your off hand, you know his stupid misplaced altruism is going to magically buff you into next Thursday. They are no different than your weapon or armor, tools to get ahead.

You don't need to test your party directly. Since it is an adventuring party, you will come into trouble soon enough and they will be tested, you will too. A powerful undead/dragon/insert powerful boss monster will give the party a run for its money, possibly killing some or all of you. You can steer them to fight the biggest baddest thing, as you wanna be the top? Best way to get there is to kill everything above you. Those goody two shoes adventures think they are "removing these evil scourges from the world" when you are just knocking off the competition. Your "friends" are just minions/pawns/bandaids/bullet sponges as needed. You will prove that in combat you are not to be messed with-they should all know that if they piss you off, you have the raw barbarian power to rip them in half.

"what's in it for me" is not just stupid evil, it is stupid in any ttRPG since the game relies on working together. An easy motivation is to prove yourself to them, that you are THEIR pack leader, that you are the apex predator they can't stop, but work with. If nothing else, you know they will be minions and the like as I said earlier. Smart evil knows they can always gain, and they won't hesitate or let "morals" get in their way to get ahead.

Edit: and what Red Fel said.

Flickerdart
2016-05-17, 09:52 AM
There are a couple of possible goals that an evil, religious murderhobo could pursue, beyond simple power:

Recognition: The rabbit lives out his life in fear of the wolf, even when the wolf is not near. If many people know about the barbarian's strength and brutality, then many will fear him. The barbarian could wear a wolf's head mask when he fights, and let unworthy prey go so they can tell tales of the wolf-headed monster that tears through his foes.

Conversion: The world of men is mired in laws and rules that let the weak rule over the strong. The barbarian's life would be much simpler and more enjoyable if everyone lived like him and followed the tenets of the Beastlord. It is not important that they worship him, merely that they reject the rule of law, and look out for themselves instead of the greater good. Start with your party members by subtly encouraging them to emulate you. Eventually, give the same advice to NPCs you meet.

Segev
2016-05-17, 04:22 PM
Would a barbarian of Malar try to 'convert' other barbarians (We got one in the party), or share at least with them his religious creed?It seems to me that a Barbarian of Malar would be more likely to share his philosophy in the same way that the stereotypical American Indian shares his in the 80s/90s pseudo-western, or the "modern indian sharing the old ways" sort of character. Since you're a main character, and not a potentially-offensive cardboard cutout, try to avoid being 1st-season Chakotay, but sprinkle it in where appropriate. Since you're CE, it's going to be significantly less friendly than most of those depictions, anyway.

As a might-makes-right sort of guy, you generally will simply presume that your ways are the right ones, and find it strange or funny that "civilized folk" have such silly misconceptions that they would disagree with you. Share your philosophy when those clashes of expectations occur. Demonstrate it, otherwise.

So yes, share it. Try to convert in the same sense that a guide tries to "convert" travelers to ways which work in the wilderness. To you, the philosophy is not a belief system; it's simply the way things are.

My dm told me in advance, that our cleric will find her sister in dire danger and probably slave to someone; there is also a chance we will find her in a prison, beaten up truly badly. My DM wishes to test the "faith" of the cleric of my party.

As a barbarian of Malar, how would I approach such a situation?

1) I'm sort of sure that I will protect the cleric and his sister;
2) A part of me tells that I would persuade the cleric that his creed and worship did nothing to help her sister; such a thing would have never happened if he was to worship Malar and be educated along such ways.
3) And the third part; I'm pretty sure that I could persuade him to accept my offer and convert, if I followed Malar teaching. Would it be too civilized to do that?You definitely save the sister. It shores up a weakness in your pack, grows your pack (by adding her to it), and provides opportunity to prove your strength (which makes you have higher status in the pack, since the cleric now owes you).

I would focus any "conversion" efforts here on discussing why this demonstrates that strength is all. With strength, you can save her. Weakness gets her left in chains. I'd almost focus more on "gently" (for you) teaching the girl to be stronger, so she is no longer a weakness to the pack. She, more than the adventurer Cleric in the party, lacks strength. Teach her how to develop it. Your philosophy will naturally come through in this. If she improves, so, too, might her brother's impression of your philosophy.

If it ever comes down to choosing his god's tenants or his family/pack/party, having the sister be a de facto follower of Malar gives him an obviously open door to a better, stronger, more worthy patron for his divine powers. He will see how it has been healthy for her, and is more likely to view his current (weak-minded) god's (pathetic, selfish, confining) teachings as the problem, rather than whatever is causing the conflict between them and his family.

Keltest
2016-05-17, 04:33 PM
Something else to keep in mind is that your character will have a wildly different perspective on things than your good allies. He might, for example, be far more likely to suggest dropping a landslide on a group of enemies to eliminate them than your good counterparts would, if they prey were not worthy of a direct confrontation. Don't get confrontational if they decide against your suggestions, but make sure that theyre effective. Its much harder to dismiss a plan out of hand for being "cruel" if it is the most effective plan put forth.

Quiver
2016-05-17, 04:38 PM
Khal Drogo.

You are a barbarian? You revel in fighting?

Run with that. That's your strength. Amass an army- no, a horde. Raise your reputation; let people know that when the chosen of Malar rides upon them, they should either supplicate themselves before you, or have the skin flayed from their bones.

Your a chaotic evil Conan the Barbarian, and that kind of thing is just destabilising. After all, if lords and kings can't protect their people from you...well, better to join the winning team, am I right?

Granted, you need to be able to avoid getting put down...but that's how you raise your stock and legend.

Tiri
2016-05-17, 09:54 PM
Khal Drogo.

You are a barbarian? You revel in fighting?

Run with that. That's your strength. Amass an army- no, a horde. Raise your reputation; let people know that when the chosen of Malar rides upon them, they should either supplicate themselves before you, or have the skin flayed from their bones.

Your a chaotic evil Conan the Barbarian, and that kind of thing is just destabilising. After all, if lords and kings can't protect their people from you...well, better to join the winning team, am I right?

Granted, you need to be able to avoid getting put down...but that's how you raise your stock and legend.

He does happen to be in a group of Neutral Good characters, you know.

Mutazoia
2016-05-18, 12:37 AM
As there is already a lot of good information above, I'll just add a quick tidbit of general info:

Too many people think of evil as it is portrayed by Hollywood. That is, a dark, scary looking/acting monster (either in form or function) that walks down the street kicking puppies and eating babies.

Evil...true evil, won't be the ugly monster, but will be an average, or even good looking person who will become your best friend and convince you that going to hell in a hand basket is the greatest idea since sliced bread, and will even help you go shopping to buy the hand basket yourself.

If you want a good idea of how to play "smart evil", just watch James Wood's portrayal of Hades in Disney's Hercules....and then imagine a non "G" rated version.

Esprit15
2016-05-18, 03:28 AM
The best evil is the one that people like, or that has people saying "What if he's onto something?" Play up the idea of only the strong surviving. Be the best friend of the party, but have those moments where the monster inside of you momentarily peaks above the surface, reminding them that you're working with the heros, but that doesn't make you one. So long as it does not estrange you from the party, find chances to go too far, morally. Given that you're seeking to go with a predator-prey-future prey outlook, act on that. Mercy against a group a bandits (that don't have any vital information)? After they dared challenge you? Kill them all. Painfully.

Sergio
2016-05-25, 06:59 PM
There are a lot of informations inside here. Thank you to each one of you!

I'll be reading it, process it, then formulate my queries. But I wished to thank you now!

Honest Tiefling
2016-05-25, 07:08 PM
Sooo...Is it at all possible for you to drop hints to your DM regarding the plot? Because this situation seems good for an aberration attack. I am not the biggest fan of Forgotten Realms, but I am near certain Malar is about the natural world, not crazy tentacle stuff infesting everything.

Also mention to your DM that Malar is the ally of a LOT of evil gods. (Seriously, I think he has the most evil alliance of any evil god, and he's a wolfman for crying out loud.) Depending on how you want to play your character, either you need to ignore these loyalties, or your god does.

Keltest
2016-05-25, 07:43 PM
Sooo...Is it at all possible for you to drop hints to your DM regarding the plot? Because this situation seems good for an aberration attack. I am not the biggest fan of Forgotten Realms, but I am near certain Malar is about the natural world, not crazy tentacle stuff infesting everything.

Also mention to your DM that Malar is the ally of a LOT of evil gods. (Seriously, I think he has the most evil alliance of any evil god, and he's a wolfman for crying out loud.) Depending on how you want to play your character, either you need to ignore these loyalties, or your god does.

My understanding is that Malar really wants to be involved in a lot of the evil going around and just generally impress everyone with how evil and powerful he is, but none of the other gods care about him especially much either way.

Honest Tiefling
2016-05-25, 07:50 PM
My understanding is that Malar really wants to be involved in a lot of the evil going around and just generally impress everyone with how evil and powerful he is, but none of the other gods care about him especially much either way.

Overall...I thought it was sorta vague as to how the actual followers of the evil gods interacted with one another. Probably intentially to allow for more intrigue, but could be due to the baddies of Faerun often being handed the idiot ball. But I doubt that just murdering the crap out of the other god's followers is really how its supposed to be done, even if it's only a facade of an alliance.

Through the way you put it makes him seem like a big ol' puppy dog that just wants the extermination of the elven race and some belly rubs.

Keltest
2016-05-25, 08:08 PM
Overall...I thought it was sorta vague as to how the actual followers of the evil gods interacted with one another. Probably intentially to allow for more intrigue, but could be due to the baddies of Faerun often being handed the idiot ball. But I doubt that just murdering the crap out of the other god's followers is really how its supposed to be done, even if it's only a facade of an alliance.

Through the way you put it makes him seem like a big ol' puppy dog that just wants the extermination of the elven race and some belly rubs.

Maybe if he were a priest of some sort, it could cause issues, but joe shmoe barbarian guy doesn't really care who his prey worships unless some fairly specific circumstances come into play.

kyoryu
2016-05-25, 10:45 PM
"what's in it for me" is not just stupid evil, it is stupid in any ttRPG since the game relies on working together. An easy motivation is to prove yourself to them, that you are THEIR pack leader, that you are the apex predator they can't stop, but work with. If nothing else, you know they will be minions and the like as I said earlier. Smart evil knows they can always gain, and they won't hesitate or let "morals" get in their way to get ahead.

No, what's in it for me isn't stupid at all. What's stupid is prioritizing "what's in it for me THIS SECOND" over "what's in it for me in a week, a month, or a year."

sengmeng
2016-05-28, 12:58 PM
Power is often a goal for evil characters, but the truly evil and smart evil seek power to use it for some purpose. Will power make your character the ultimate hunter? No, not if you don't use it to hunt the ultimate prey...

You need to find prey worthy of you, even if you have to groom it yourself. Even if you find it among your friends. You're not betraying them; you're redeeming them. Molding them into your pack. Teaching them the doctrine of the beast. They are not ready; like the young and the pregnant, it is not their time. Yet. And if you fail, if they make you their prey? You've given them the best gift of all, making them the ultimate hunters. No one could call this disloyalty.

GrayDeath
2016-05-28, 01:25 PM
Power is often a goal for evil characters, but the truly evil and smart evil seek power to use it for some purpose. Will power make your character the ultimate hunter? No, not if you don't use it to hunt the ultimate prey...

You need to find prey worthy of you, even if you have to groom it yourself. Even if you find it among your friends. You're not betraying them; you're redeeming them. Molding them into your pack. Teaching them the doctrine of the beast. They are not ready; like the young and the pregnant, it is not their time. Yet. And if you fail, if they make you their prey? You've given them the best gift of all, making them the ultimate hunters. No one could call this disloyalty.


Marvellous.

Just love that Post, needed tob e said.