The Black Knight

[MrStabby]

So one of my characters failed his last death save.

Good news is it means i get to charge in with another character and i wanted to play a Black Knight type guy. Big. Strong. Evil.

The problem is that paladin is probably not an ideal class as we have a new player, keen to showcase the paladin and it would be nice to give her the space to do it.

So what I am thinking of is that the friends of my dear departed character could find me in prison and in return for freeing me I swear an oath to serve whoever sets me free - lets me be evil and gives me a reason to stay in character whilst still avoiding starting party conflicts.

Mechanically I was thinking of something similar to one of my first 5th ed characters - a str assassin / champion character using shield mastery to knock enemies prone (+expertise in athletics) and to hopefully land critical sneak attacks on them. It was kind of fun but I made some mistakes - assassin was good but if you got the assassinate off then the fight was over so you never got to appreciate using your ability and champion didn't add a lot of fun abilities.

I will be joining the party at level 7. I am thinking fighter 5, warlock 1, rogue 1 for classes (fighter first for Con saves and heavy armour). It's pretty MAD unfortunately but could be a blast to play. Warlock is for more toys - some short rest spells give me some choices and variety between rounds. I am thinking fey pact - the fear ability seems pretty in-keeping with my vision for the character, as does hex (also good for opposed athletics checks) and misty step. Rogue gives me sneak attack (again, works for an evil no-holds-barred type of combatant. Expertise for athletics (obviously) and i am thinking intimidation will give me a role to play (coupled with what should be an OK charisma).

So at the start I am happy with where the character sits - a strong bully of a character that pushes his enemies around, some mundane viciousness but also just a little eldritch evil. My problem is where to take it from here.

The first choice is what archetype for the fighter. I am thinking battlemaster seems the most fun - a whole bunch of short rest abilities is something I like.

But what classes to take next? Fighter 6 would get me an important ASI (taking a feat at 4th level + other class requirements makes this valuable). A second rogue level gets me cunning action - I already have a lot of bonus action options but the ability to close to combat a bit quicker or to cut down a fleeing enemy is nice. Disengage is for wimps - if I need to not be in combat with someone I can use my shield to shove them (but hey it might be useful from time to time). Hide? In heavy armour? Maybe not.

Alternatively I could take a lvl 2 in warlock. It gets me invocations so huge style points there. I am not sure what i would want though. Devils sight seems thematically strong and opens up human as a better race to play. Maybe eyes of the rune keeper for the other. Now i can read ANYTHING and I can do it in the dark.

My preference is probably to push for BM 5, Arcane Trickster 3, Warlock 1 at 9th level. It gives me some good wizard spells to use my warlock slots on and yet more combat options. It also means sneak attack actually hurts. I am not set on this though - do people thing a different progression is to be preferred?

What should the late game plan be to have a versatile close combat machine? BM8, AT7, Warlock 5 would let me hold person with advantage from being stood invisible, which is pretty cool whilst maintaining stats scores with ASIs. Alternatively I could go to BM11 for that lovely extra attack, AT7, W2 for some powerful sneak damage to top off other abilities.

Alternatively I could push Warlock beyond this point - really explore the otherworldly evil side of the guy with more powerful spell slots - but I am not sure there is much that could be a better use of an action than attacking.

Finally there is the option of another class (because only three classes is just not enough). Barbarian has its charms - both mechanically and RP. Sorc and Bard are at least same casting stat as the warlock, but only metamagic actually has much appeal. the other classes need stats I am not sure I want to support. Sure i don't expect to reach level 20 but it is nice to have a plan.

Finally, I am not sure what race would work. One advantage of being so MAD is that so many races support relevant stats. V human is always solid, especially if I intend to pick up a 2nd level of warlock quickly, Dragonborn can give me a link to an evil creature (hmm maybe a parental shadowdragon patron as the fluff for the warlock pact?), Half orc is nice an brutish, and good with pushing people prone. Half elf is ok...

What is the best:
1) In terms of power
2) In terms of fun combat options and diversity
3) Supporting roleplaying a Wicked Badass?

[Toaau]

Tis but a scratch!
I'll show myself out.

[manny2510]

I think fighter/bard would be most appropriate. Vicious mockery to weaken your opponents, and martial skill to finish them. Cowardice is evil in itself. Also the Bards cross-class spell dips are really nice. I'd also remember that spells require a free hand so no shield.

[Tanarii]

Why not EK instead of warlock? Gives you the spells, and I've always felt it screams black knight. Keeps you on track as a fighter too, plus gives you an extra ASI. The only problem is you'll need Warcaster, but that's true for warlock too, and you just picked up an extra ASI so you can have it and Sheild Master.

Edit: also it stacks with you AT levels for spellcasting, unlike warlock.

[Specter]

In terms of power and coolness, I'd go for Fighter 12/Rogue 8. Uncanny Dodge, 3 attacks, 6 ASI's, MADNESS.

The most badass weapon in my opinion is a whip; it's pure pain and humiliation. Couple that with Sentinel and watch them cry. Dual Wielder and two whips, I hear? Awesome!

If you grab Magic Initiate, go for Warlock spells; stuff like Hex and Thaumaturgy gives you plenty of the dark flavor you want and you won't need 13CHA and delaying progression to multiclass.

Socially you can be the bad cop; intimidate and harass the cattle while your paladin friend swoops in to play nice.

[MrStabby]

Why not EK instead of warlock? Gives you the spells, and I've always felt it screams black knight. Keeps you on track as a fighter too, plus gives you an extra ASI. The only problem is you'll need Warcaster, but that's true for warlock too, and you just picked up an extra ASI so you can have it and Sheild Master.

Edit: also it stacks with you AT levels for spellcasting, unlike warlock.

This was kind of what I started with. There were a few good spells accessible at a low enough level to make me want to take it but I just didn't feel I got enough uses from shield early enough... One of the reasons for a warlock level (besides the whole eldritch theme thing). The ASI is attractive, dumping charisma is attractive also... but I want sweet intimidate skills. Needing warcaster kind of sucks, I forgot about that. For some spells I would cast once at the start of a fight before drawing my weapon it isn't a big deal but for other spells it may be. I am away from book now, anyone know if I need a free hand to cast shield?


In terms of power and coolness, I'd go for Fighter 12/Rogue 8. Uncanny Dodge, 3 attacks, 6 ASI's, MADNESS.

The most badass weapon in my opinion is a whip; it's pure pain and humiliation. Couple that with Sentinel and watch them cry. Dual Wielder and two whips, I hear? Awesome!

If you grab Magic Initiate, go for Warlock spells; stuff like Hex and Thaumaturgy gives you plenty of the dark flavor you want and you won't need 13CHA and delaying progression to multiclass.

Socially you can be the bad cop; intimidate and harass the cattle while your paladin friend swoops in to play nice.

So the whip thing and the full fighter/rogue progression is cool, but that was pretty much my last fighter rogue (background of being a slaver).

Magic initiate for the warlock stuff? Maybe viable and not something I had really given thought to. It gives a bit of the flavour but not the nice bonus short rest hex slots and it means not getting a second level for invocations. It also means giving up on the fey ability to frighten enemies. I think the invocations are cool and would add a lot to the character but if i can get that flavour another way I would like it.



I think fighter/bard would be most appropriate. Vicious mockery to weaken your opponents, and martial skill to finish them. Cowardice is evil in itself. Also the Bards cross-class spell dips are really nice. I'd also remember that spells require a free hand so no shield.
Ok... you have my attention. I still can take expertise in athletics and intimidation so thats something. Some extra spell slots, which i did want.

So two questions... firstly what are you rating as the great cross class spell dips? And as i am a little attached to having a shield, which of them don't have somatic components? As I won't be keeping up as a full caster spells that scale well with level would be particularly fine.

[Specter]

So the whip thing and the full fighter/rogue progression is cool, but that was pretty much my last fighter rogue (background of being a slaver).

Magic initiate for the warlock stuff? Maybe viable and not something I had really given thought to. It gives a bit of the flavour but not the nice bonus short rest hex slots and it means not getting a second level for invocations. It also means giving up on the fey ability to frighten enemies. I think the invocations are cool and would add a lot to the character but if i can get that flavour another way I would like it.

Fair enough.

Most invocations mimic spells or give stuff other classes get, so you could look at what you want and see if there are other means to do it. If you're really interested in warlock perhaps it's better to take 5 levels and then go full Rogue, so you get Extra Attack like a fighter would and skill efficiency.

[Corran]

Just go with an oathbreaker, it is the natural choice for what you want to play.

Dont fear that you will be stepping into the other paladin's toes. Seems to me you have figured out how you can play the ''evil'' concept you want without putting the party's balance at risk. Mechanically each oath can play quite differently. And as far as rp goes, you can be a contributing force to the new player's rp, seeing as you are something entirely different (if not opposite). You can help the new player showcase her paladin's good and noble personality at every step of the way. Help her demostrate how different her character is to yours, or tempt her character to an evil path instead. Either way, the rp potential between two such characters who have found a way to co-exist in a group, is huge and extremelly interesting!

ps: Mechanically it will not be any different than if you were playing any other melee-heavy character. The only drawback is the aura of protection overlap, but hey, I dont think you are going for full party optimisation.

[wunderkid]

Could a cleric be a viable route? You can keep the Armor. Nets you spells. Can use an arcane focus unlike the EK iirc. Plenty of spell slots without dipping. Little bit of fluffing and you keep the black Knight theme. I've not looked massively into clerics myself as I play rogue/bard so I'm afraid I can't be much more help than that right now

[djreynolds]

EK is just fine. Throw in some death cleric, could be a nice build. 6EK/14 cleric

[SuckerBob]

And as i am a little attached to having a shield, which of them don't have somatic components? As I won't be keeping up as a full caster spells that scale well with level would be particularly fine.
You could always give up an ASI to get War Caster, which gives you a bunch of other cool stuff for if you want to do some more casting. Somatic components are no longer a problem!

Edit: re your first point of inquiry, I would rate spells like Faerie Fire, Dissonant Whispers and Bane as pickups for your Bard spells, as they are awesome and they could work with the kind of character you're trying to make play-wise and RP-wise

[MrStabby]

Could a cleric be a viable route? You can keep the Armor. Nets you spells. Can use an arcane focus unlike the EK iirc. Plenty of spell slots without dipping. Little bit of fluffing and you keep the black Knight theme. I've not looked massively into clerics myself as I play rogue/bard so I'm afraid I can't be much more help than that right now

Cleric could work - my original reason for rejecting was wisdom. A cleric gets a lot of good spells that really need wisdom, especially if you get up to level 2/3 spells and above. All the fighter ASIs could help a little though. I do like the idea of level 11 fighter level 5 cleric to run into melee with spirit guardians up, hit 3-4 things in combat to give disadvantage on saves against it


EK is just fine. Throw in some death cleric, could be a nice build. 6EK/14 cleric

Surely you want at least 7 on the EK? Throw out a twinned necromancy cantrip then a melee attack?


My overall concern with cleric is how long it will take to actually get to feeling like the character I want. At level 6, I could be death domain 1, EK 5 which is ok but then I am only really taking the spell slots from the cleric side (yes, there are good level 1 cleric spells, but none I really think add to the theme of what i want to build - also as the level 1 EK spells are so good warlock may give a little more power by giving me more spells per day). By EK 11, Cleric 9 though I would have a lot of nice toys.

I am also still tempted to keep the rogue in for expertise if I did this - although intimidate might be less good if I am using wisdom not cha as a required 13 stat.

This would be fighter 5, cleric 1, rogue 1 ASAP then progress fighter to 11 then cleric to 5. After that (which is level 17 anyway) I could take another rogue or two levels (maybe pick up assassinate) or keep pushing cleric.

[djreynolds]

Well lets see what you want, yes.

I would think you want at least 8 levels of cleric, death, for the additional necrotic damage. Its thematic that you add necrotic damage.

You could grab warlock level 12. And 8 levels of EK or 8 cleric. The extra attack from EK would save you on an invocation of warlock.

The thing is we are trying to duplicate a paladin, in the blackest sense.

Can you live with medium armor? A shield? A polearm?
How much warlock do you want?
I think you are correct, warlock gives the feel of the black knight best, but you will need to invest in charisma.
You could go EK 1st level and snag heavy armor, then just go warlock, and then at least 3 levels of EK as that shield spell is too tasty to pass up.
Its up to you if you are going to take 12 of warlock for the extra necrotic damage. You really just need strength and charisma, and you could squeeze in 13 wisdom for some death cleric.

12 warlock, 6EK, and 2 death cleric for channel divinity. This could work. Polearm master. Lots of slot to spam the shield spell. 6EK will give you to ASI, you will need them.

[Tanarii]

This was kind of what I started with. There were a few good spells accessible at a low enough level to make me want to take it but I just didn't feel I got enough uses from shield early enough... One of the reasons for a warlock level (besides the whole eldritch theme thing). The ASI is attractive, dumping charisma is attractive also... but I want sweet intimidate skills. Needing warcaster kind of sucks, I forgot about that. For some spells I would cast once at the start of a fight before drawing my weapon it isn't a big deal but for other spells it may be. I am away from book now, anyone know if I need a free hand to cast shield?Fair enough if you don't feel EK doesn't fit your flavor as Eldritch enough (in spite of the name obviously).

Yes, casting the Shield spell requires a free hand, it has a S component. You need warcaster or have your weapon sheathed. Since you can't draw and sheath your weapon on each round without an action, that pretty much requires Warcaster.

Also, Warlocks can't cast the Shield spell at all. So you're getting 0 uses of it from going Warlock. In fact, with the Battle Master Fighter 5 / Warlock 1 / Rogue 1 build you suggested, you're only getting 1 spell per short rest, with 2 spells known. That's identical to the 3 / LR an EK gets with the assumed 2 SR per LR, and less spells known.

Edit: Personally I don't worry about enough uses of the Shield spell for a S&B EK. Those 1st level spell slots are all going to Burning Hands/Thunderwave, Chromatic Orb, Fog Cloud, or Charm Person/Disguise Self. You've already got plenty of AC, and need the spells more for AoE, Ranged, Anti-ranged, or Utility.

[JellyPooga]

Tis but a scratch!

Warlock (Blade Pact, Undying Patron) 14 / Cleric (War Domain) 6

You really can be dismembered and not care much about it...

"Come back, you coward!"

[MrStabby]

Right - in the end I opted for eldritch knight and to drop the shield mastery in favour of polearm mastery + sentinel. My thinking was that PAM gives me an extra attack so i end up with the same number of attacks if I use one to shove as if I had taken the shield mastery feat. I thought that having a character which made use of strategic positioning a bit more and was focused on battlefield control would be more fun than a pure damage build.

As it is I am having a blast with the character - shield helps keep me safe (DM ruled I could disengage one hand for somatic components of spells with a 2 handed weapon but not with a shield) but there is a good amount of offensive power there. I am playing as a v.human and the lack of dark-vision is getting to me though.

I can act as a great bodyguard - protecting softer targets till an opportunity opens up then go offensive. It is also great fun to intimidate with Expertise when the party decides to not play nice any longer.

We have just hit level 8 now and I am EK 5, Feypact Warlock 1, Rogue 1 and wondering what to take next. EK to 6 would give me an ASI, something I think I need pretty soon. Warlock to 2 would give me invocations and let me take devils sight to overcome the lack of darkvision would also be very good. I am not sure which to prioritise.

I am also trying to work out there to go longer term. Sticking with EK gets me lots of good stuff for the team - ruining enemy saves will go down well with the casters I am bodyguarding and getting a third attack is always fun (although by that time we would be character level 14 at least so probably heading towards the end of the campaign). The extra ASI at level 10 is also pretty good (as well as some new spells known). The problem is that there are a few wasted features - war magic (one of the stronger features) isn't great if I am focusing on using the attack action.

Warlock 3 can get me level 2 spells, and a pact feature - so some bonus to freeing up levels for that. Rogue 2 can get me cunning action - bonus action is clogged up but getting dash as a bonus action would have been very useful in a couple of encounters.

The other thing I am thinking of is barbarian - same HP as if I put the bonus fighter ASI into constitution but rage, reckless attack and other features are actually quite attractive especially for an evil bodyguard type character.

Anyway I have probably a month or more to decide where to go - any debate on which of the different class features are most fun?

[Sir cryosin]

Go straight valor bard pick up heavy armored feat to have heavy armor.

[MrStabby]

Go straight valor bard pick up heavy armored feat to have heavy armor.

I already have heavy armour proficiency - not why adding valour bard would add anything there?

[R.Shackleford]

So you made me want to make a Black Knight, I'm going for Funoptimization.

Human Variant Soldier Cleric (Death)
Feat: Heavily Armored (Heavy Armor prof, +1 Str)

Str: 16
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 16
Cha: 10

HP: 10
AC: 16 (starting equipment, get heavy armor soon for 18 AC)
Speed: 30
Initiative: 0

Skills: Athletics, History, Animal Handling, Insight, Intimidation

Gain: Chill Touch (targets 2)


Level 4: Charger

Level 8: +2 Str

Other ASI: Boost Str and Wis maybe go for Sentinel, Warcaster, or something else.

At level 8 I will be dashing around with a greatsword (or longsword if I'm going sword and board) dealing 2d6 + 4 + 1d8 + 5 (feat) damage (20 ish) while my dead minions run around working interference. For this build I wouldn't rely on Spiritual Weapon as much and just keep spamming Blindness/Deafness a lot. Oh, and I would keep Bless up too, though from time to time I will start out with a Bane.

As a Cleric, going last isn't a bad thing. I'll let the enemy move first and then charge at them. In all honesty I probabaly wouldn't take this past level 8 and just go Barbarian... Sure I wouldn't be able to use rage a lot (as I'm heavy armor) but things like Reckless Attack, Danger Sense, Extra Attack, Feral Instinct (adv initiative), and Brutal Critical all work while in heavy armor....

Maybe I have an emotional attachment to my armor and it keeps my anger in check...

Cleric (Death) 12 / Barbarian (Bear and Eagle) 8 would do nicely even when armored.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Answering your question, I'd take the second Warlock level,. I'm a sucker for at-will stuff, and it sounds like you really want the Darkvision. Then Fighter +2 for the ASI and War Magic, and back to Warlock for another level for second level spells and a familiar/extra cantrips, then take the rest as a Fighter.

[Malifice]

Warlock 5, Fighter 2. Pact of the Blade.

Take Fighter at 1st level for HP, Heavy armor and Con saves. The rest doesnt matter.

Human. Pimp Strength and Cha to 16, dump Dex and Int to 8. Decent (14) Con, OK Wis (10 works). You have a Paladin in the party. Let that schmuck help your saves. Wear heavy armor. Plate if you can get it.

Feats: Heavy Armor master and Heavy weapon master. Defence F/S (or Heavy).

Invocations: Thirsting blade, False life at will. Spells: Fireball, hex, hellish rebuke.

Skills: Athletics, Perception; take Deception as well because... Paladin.

Cast Hex. Short rest as soon as you can. Maintain concentration on Hex during your short rest. Get back your spell slots. Now spam your False life invocation over and over until you roll a 4. Gain 8 temp HP.

Pre combat (or on the first round) convince the Paladin to Bless you. Enter battle. Deal 3d6+13 damage 2/ round at +[4-7] to hit. Action surge when necessary for 4 attacks and a 12d6+52 damage nova, and dont forget your free bonus action attacks when you drop an enemy. Ensure you target Strength with your Hex, and dont be scared to use your Athletics to knock hard to hit targets to the ground for advantage on attacks before you nova on them.

Whenever you kill an enemy (which should be most rounds), replenish 8 Temp HP. If things look grim, use your bonus action to second wind and heal 1d10+2.

If someone hits you with your AC of 19, reduce the damage by 3, and then apply the rest to your temp HP. Make a Con save (at +6 plus bless, plus the Paladin save aura) against whatever damage got through to maintain Hex. As a reaction, hit your attacker with a Hellish rebuke for 4d10 damage while laughing maniacally. If he dies, replenish 8 more temp HP. Watch as your DM starts... not attacking you anymore.

If you get bored tanking like a boss, and smashing foes to little bits with your Demonic greatsword, fireball them. Dont forget to increase your temp HP by 8 if any of them die.

Short rest. Repeat.

Next level take another level of Fighter. Battlemaster is recommended. Menacing attack (just because, and frightened is cool and thematically appropriate, plus it adds another +1d8 to the damage), Riposte (for yet another method to troll your DM with a reaction smack to the head when he hits you and makes you lose some temp HP), and Precise strike (to ensure those GWM attacks that miss, dont).

From there, it should be Warlock all the way. Get resistance to damage, +1d10 to a save or skill of your choice 1/ short rest, 3 slots per short rest (at this point you should be running around covered in Rimefrost via Armor of Agathys all the time), +Cha to damage and 4 slots/ short rest and 9th level spells as your capstone. Blow your ASI on Warcaster (Greenflame blade opportunity attacks and advantage to Con saves for the win) with the last two on getting Cha to 20. Grab a belt of giant strength and a magical greatsword asap.

Troll your Paladin further by using this as your character pic:

http://static7.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/31229/5079872-0008171008-Dark%25.jpg

[Lollerabe]

More or less everything Malifice said, get extra attack from fiend lock asap.

Oh and screw that picture THIS is your guy:

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/84/2c/54/842c5495fe81228e4708ba5addaa0521.jpg

[MrStabby]

More or less everything Malifice said, get extra attack from fiend lock asap.

Oh and screw that picture THIS is your guy:

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/84/2c/54/842c5495fe81228e4708ba5addaa0521.jpg

I am sorry but I think this is really bad advice. I already get a second attack from the fighter and further extra attack abilities from other classes do not stack. Also you seem to have missed that the character is a fey-pact warlock not a fiend pact.

[Lollerabe]

Sorry stabby I kind of missed the point that you already made the char, in that case ignore both malifices post and mine. The post was meant as a suggestion for making the concept come true from scratch. Pardon I derailed the thread.

[MrStabby]

Sorry stabby I kind of missed the point that you already made the char, in that case ignore both malifices post and mine. The post was meant as a suggestion for making the concept come true from scratch. Pardon I derailed the thread.

Ah not to worry. I do like warlock but I have played them a few times so I wanted a bit more of other classes - no problem with a dip but wanted to explore other concepts.