Shadow Conjuration (Creation) clarification

[magicalmagicman]

It says "Shadow objects or substances have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them."

Could someone clarify?

So like if I create a wall of iron, I know it has x% of its hp, but what about hardness? Those who disbelieve still have to break it like it's iron?

I'm mainly interested in True Creation with shadowcraft mage. I want to create a kingdom out of shadow.

[Troacctid]

Those who disbelieve ignore it completely, as if it were a figment.

[Gildedragon]

Those who disbelieve ignore it completely, as if it were a figment.

No. They ignore it up to their pseudoreal percentage. 110% pseudoreal effect is more dangerous if disbelieved

Against a wall (using standard values)
If disbelieve you still have to deal 20% of normal damage (and are affected by only 20% of the hardness/hardness affects only 20% of the time) to bring it down for good; otherwise you'll only be able to go through it 80% of the time

If you believe: you think wall has full hp, and that it isn't an illusion, and can't go through it at all, and experience full hardness

[ILM]

The way I read it, the rules are clear. Spells that deal damage work as described. Creatures also work as described in the spell. Objects and substances work as normal except against those who disbelieve, in which case they are only 20% (or whatever) likely to work. So basically, forget about hp and hardness: roll a dice and the wall either exists in full or not at all.

Edit: also, I've never agreed with the logic of Arcane Disciple applied to ScM, and I think you should check with your DM. Just my habitual 2 cents.

[magicalmagicman]

The way I read it, the rules are clear. Spells that deal damage work as described. Creatures also work as described in the spell. Objects and substances work as normal except against those who disbelieve, in which case they are only 20% (or whatever) likely to work. So basically, forget about hp and hardness: roll a dice and the wall either exists in full or not at all.

Edit: also, I've never agreed with the logic of Arcane Disciple applied to ScM, and I think you should check with your DM. Just my habitual 2 cents.

I was thinking of Wyrm Wizard not Arcane Disciple.

[RoboEmperor]

The way I read it, the rules are clear. Spells that deal damage work as described. Creatures also work as described in the spell. Objects and substances work as normal except against those who disbelieve, in which case they are only 20% (or whatever) likely to work. So basically, forget about hp and hardness: roll a dice and the wall either exists in full or not at all.

I am 100% sure you are wrong about this. A wall is not a spell effect. The spell effect is creation of the wall. By your logic anyone who disbelieves a shadow creature can walk right through them, which you can't. Objects and creatures are basically the same (look at golems).

Although AC is affected, the spell description makes no mention of damage reduction, so no, hardness is unaffected, but HP definitely is.

[Troacctid]

A creature is, by definition, not an object. (See the PHB glossary.)

[RoboEmperor]

A creature is, by definition, not an object. (See the PHB glossary.)

After dissecting Shadow Conjuration, I think I'm wrong.

Spectral Weapon is another shadow spell using quasi real stuff, and against disbelievers it still does 20% damage, but this is probably a completely different spell altogether since the weapon only requires touch attacks, and even grants proficiencies.

Anyways, right after it talks about shadow objects, it says it works only 20% against disbelievers, although in a new paragraph, but I think it still talking about objects.

So if we think that you created a dagger and stab at a disbeliever, it only has 20% chance to work, which means the dagger doesn't do anything.

I reverse my statement. Walls will only work 20% of the time. Since you're using shadowcraft mage though I wouldn't worry about it, since to use true creation, you'll be at 100% or 110% quasi reality anyways.

[ILM]

Anyways, right after it talks about shadow objects, it says it works only 20% against disbelievers, although in a new paragraph, but I think it still talking about objects.
Yes, that's what I was going on as well. I'm as sure as can be that this paragraph is just the continuation about the part on objects and substances, but it's definitely crap editing. Par for the course with WotC...


I was thinking of Wyrm Wizard not Arcane Disciple.
Same thing.

"select one spell from any class's spell list (including divine spells), of a level equal to or lower than the highest-level arcane spell you can prepare and cast. You can add this spell to your arcane spellcasting class spell list as a spell of the same level"

Either this makes it a genuine "sorcerer or wizard spell", in which case once you've selected it any other sorcerer in the world can learn the spell naturally - hey, it's a sorcerer spell now - or it just adds it to your own list but not for all the other sorc/wizs in the world, in which case it's hardly a "sorcerer or wizard spell".

Not going to start a debate again, but I'd advise making sure your DM agrees with you.

[magicalmagicman]

Either this makes it a genuine "sorcerer or wizard spell", in which case once you've selected it any other sorcerer in the world can learn the spell naturally - hey, it's a sorcerer spell now - or it just adds it to your own list but not for all the other sorc/wizs in the world, in which case it's hardly a "sorcerer or wizard spell".

Why can't it be a sorcerer/wizard spell just for you exclusively? It adds to YOUR sorcerer/wizard list (assuming you are a sorcerer or wizard).

[Florian]

It says "Shadow objects or substances have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them."

Could someone clarify?

So like if I create a wall of iron, I know it has x% of its hp, but what about hardness? Those who disbelieve still have to break it like it's iron?

I'm mainly interested in True Creation with shadowcraft mage. I want to create a kingdom out of shadow.

It´s not that hard to handle this family of spells:

First, it´s an Illusion. certain forms of Interaction allow a Disbelief Check.
Seconds, it´s a quasi-real shadow of the mimicked thing. Even if disbelieved, something happens/remains.

So in case of you Wall of Iron, it has all relevant Variables with the exception of hp, even hardness.

[ILM]

It´s not that hard to handle this family of spells:

First, it´s an Illusion. certain forms of Interaction allow a Disbelief Check.
Seconds, it´s a quasi-real shadow of the mimicked thing. Even if disbelieved, something happens/remains.

So in case of you Wall of Iron, it has all relevant Variables with the exception of hp, even hardness.
Except that's not at all what's written.


Shadow objects or substances have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them.

Against disbelievers, they are 20% likely to work.
(I recommend ignoring that line break between the two sentences, as previously discussed).

Also,

Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

[...] A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw.
So, you see the wall, you don't get a save. You study it carefully or give it a knock, and then you get a save. Had it been a regular figment, your fist would go right through and you wouldn't need a save - only the shadow here gives it enough substance for you not to immediately notice it's an illusion (and in fairness, I guess that last point is my own interpretation rather than strictly RAW, which is unclear on that point).

[ILM]

Why can't it be a sorcerer/wizard spell just for you exclusively? It adds to YOUR sorcerer/wizard list (assuming you are a sorcerer or wizard).
I can't stop you from reading it the way you do, but take a step back from the words and see how the system works.

You create a character. He's a wizard. What spells can he cast? Well, there's a list of spells listed as "wizard" spells (more often sorcerer/wizard, actually). This list is commonly referred to as the wizard class spell list, or list of wizard spells (note that "class spell list", or even "spell list" are never explicitly defined in the books). You can only learn spells from that list.

That's like the basic list. Then you get snazzy abilities that let you learn spells from elsewhere. Cool. Wyrm Wizard, Recaster, yay.

Shadowcraft Mage (or Shadow Evocation/Conjuration) says you can emulate sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spells. Not spells you can learn or cast - sorcerer or wizard spells.

So it all boils down to what you consider a sorcerer or wizard spell, right? I disagree with the notion that if it's a spell you can cast, and you happen to be a wizard, then it's a wizard spell; much less the notion that it's a wizard spell just for you, a concept which is even less supported by the rules, and in fact in direct opposition with the basic idea that a wizard spell is one that all wizards can cast. It raises too many questions, it opens too many doors. I find it much more sensible to say that a wizard spell is one which has "wizard" in its spell entry text, and that the wizard spell list is the collection of all such spells. If you're a wizard and can cast a spell that's not on that list, more power to you, you have a special power - but it doesn't automatically qualify it as a wizard spell. Especially in the context of shadow illusions, where the undisputed RAW already lets you emulate about a billion spells - do you really need to expand that even more?

But hey, if that's how you read it and if that's how your DM reads it, more power to you. :smallsmile:

[magicalmagicman]

So it all boils down to what you consider a sorcerer or wizard spell, right? I disagree with the notion that if it's a spell you can cast, and you happen to be a wizard, then it's a wizard spell; much less the notion that it's a wizard spell just for you, a concept which is even less supported by the rules, and in fact in direct opposition with the basic idea that a wizard spell is one that all wizards can cast.


add this spell to your arcane spellcasting class spell list
So by RAW it adds it to my wizard's class spell list. Doesn't that make it into a wizard spell? Just like how spells from PHB become beguiler spells even though the spell descriptions don't have the beguiler tag on it, wouldn't this act make it a wizard spell for me exclusively, since unlike other wizards, they don't have it in their wizard class spell list?

Its like Domain spells for clerics. Domain spells are not cleric spells, but a cleric with that domain can choose those domain spells as if they are cleric spells (miracle spell description).

I'm not saying because I can cast a spell it becomes a wizard spell, I'm saying Wyrm Wizard specifically says it becomes a wizard spell, or a warmage spell if you were a warmage that took wyrm wizard.

[ILM]

A wizard spell is a spell that all wizards (barring specialization) can learn, right? So what's a wizard spell "for you exclusively"? A spell that all wizards can learn except only you can learn it?

To your example about beguilers: there is a beguiler spell list. It is laid out explicitly on page 11 of CA. There's only one list, not one list per beguiler. If you're really going by RAW, Wyrm Wizard adds one spell of any class spell list "to your arcane spellcasting class spell list". Not "to your arcane spellcasting class spell list for you exclusively." So a strict reading is: as soon as a wizard picks a spell with Spell Research, it becomes a wizard spell for everyone everywhere, and that makes as much sense as invoking a non-existent "for you exclusively" restriction.


Its like Domain spells for clerics. Domain spells are not cleric spells, but a cleric with that domain can choose those domain spells as if they are cleric spells (miracle spell description).
Yes. And that's explicitly laid out in Miracle, which is not the case for Shadow Conjuration/Evocation. I'd agree with you if Shadow Conjuration stated that you could emulate any sorc/wiz spell, including spells to which you have access through other means and can cast from your sorc/wiz spell slots but sadly that's not the case.

TL;DR: the RAW here is poorly worded and makes little sense, Shadow Evocation/Conjuration is already powerful enough, I lean towards not making it even crazier.

[magicalmagicman]

To your example about beguilers: there is a beguiler spell list. It is laid out explicitly on page 11 of CA. There's only one list, not one list per beguiler. If you're really going by RAW, Wyrm Wizard adds one spell of any class spell list "to your arcane spellcasting class spell list". Not "to your arcane spellcasting class spell list for you exclusively." So a strict reading is: as soon as a wizard picks a spell with Spell Research, it becomes a wizard spell for everyone everywhere, and that makes as much sense as invoking a non-existent "for you exclusively" restriction.

I think "your class list" is different from a "global class list", because there is a **** ton of things that add spells to your class list, like Malconvoker with Planar Binding to name one.

A spell has to be both in your spells known and your class spell list for you to be able to prepare it , which is why everything that gives spell known adds it to your class spell list, even if they don't explicitly mention it, like the Mother Cyst feat, and that's why almost everything that adds to your spell known also says it adds to your class spell list.

Clerics and Domains are the best example. Domain spells are not added to the cleric's class spell list, so the cleric can only use domain slots to prepare the domain spells. If they were on their spell list, they could prepare it with any spell slot they have.