Redcloak's god the Dark One (speculation)

[Guts]

I have been thinking about Redcloak's god and what it wants from its followers, the goblins and their relatives. what do know we about it? i guess it must be evil since Redcloak is evil and I think high priest and god should have similar viewpoints and alignments or red would have fallen by now. The only other thing we know about it is that Shojo said that the goblins erect their own god, leading one to assume that the dark one was not one of the original gods that created the world and the snarl.

Can a mortal become a god in DnD and by what means?

Also, Ive been rereading Berserk, and came up with the dumb theory that maybe red's god is maybe like the collective evil concsciousness or dark feelings of the goblin race and trying to give them a solid or more complex reason to be evil? Mean since their race is generally evil it could work. May be that was what Miko meant "souless nihilist' (the souless part at least). Rather than the god creating or 'supervising and guiding' a race, it was the race who created the god?

Or maybe the dark one is a Xykon or belkar like bastard who is playing Redcloak and the rest of its people for its own amusement?

[DreadSpoon]

Can a mortal become a god in DnD and by what means?

Yes, but it's an irrelevant question. D&D is just a framework in which to build worlds, and the specific rules of those worlds are up to the GMs.

In the super popular official Forgotten Realms setting for D&D, a number of the current gods were once mortals. In most settings I run, gods don't even exist (I'm a fan of the "all the gods are dead" type settings, like Uresia). Other D&D settings have very specific religious setups, like Rich's example setting "The New World" (links on the left).

However, it has been shown in the OOTS that mortals, and even inanimate objects, can become gods - recall how Odin almost made Banjo the Clown a god.

[sikyon]

However, it has been shown in the OOTS that mortals, and even inanimate objects, can become gods - recall how Odin almost made Banjo the Clown a god.

Banjo IS a god, abit perhaps not the most powerful one. Odin almost let Banjo join his pantheon.

[Joracy]

Yeah, despite not being to powerful Banjo "smited" Roy. A little lighting bolt came from no where but it was really tiny :P

[Fitzclowningham]

I always thought he just worshipped Magublyiet (sp?) but wouldn't use his name.

[Snipers_Promise]

He worships Cthulhu.

[TreesOfDeath]

He worships Rich, who continues to bring pain and suffer to innocent stickmen for his own amusment

[Morty]

I always thought he just worshipped Magublyiet (sp?) but wouldn't use his name.

Because characters in webcomic will use copyrighted name from D&D pantheon. What the hell is with people trying to put generic D&D dieties into OoTS? Is it too hard to belive that there may be completely thought-up gods there?
As for OP, I really don't think so. Goblin god(s) just happened beacuse goblins needed them. That's how gods are created in non-D'n'D worlds. Goblin beliefs created gods who epitome goblin racial traits.

[evileeyore]

Maglubiyet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglubiyet), aka Fiery-Eyes, the Mighty One, the High Chieftain, the Lord of Depths and Darkness, the Battle Lord. thought to also be The Iron One, Neutral Evil goblin god of war and leadership, is a good call as Hobs also worship him.

Other possibilities are:

Bargrivyek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bargrivyek), aka "The Peacekeeper", Lawful Evil goblin god of cooperation and territory.
Khurgorbaeyag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khurgorbaeyag), aka "The Overseer", Lawful Evil goblin god of slavery, oppression and morale.
Nomog-Geaya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomog-Geaya), aka "The General", Lawful Evil god of hobgoblins, war and authority.

Maglubiyet is both a Greywhawk and Faerûn deity.
Gods of Greyhawk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Greyhawk_deities)
Gods of Faerûn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Forgotten_Realms_deities)

[Fitzclowningham]

Because characters in webcomic will use copyrighted name from D&D pantheon. What the hell is with people trying to put generic D&D dieties into OoTS?

Just doing my part to keep you feeling superior.

[Lavidor]

Well, about becoming gods. In OOTS, it seems to be that if you declare someone/thing to be a god they're a god. (not powerful until they get enough followers but still a god).

[TheNovak]

Just doing my part to keep you feeling superior.

/cheer! That made me laugh :smallbiggrin:

And on the topic of copywritten gods, I don't think it could be Cthulhu, either. It's just some charismatic goblin dude who got all his buddies to worship him, and it spread from there. That sort of thing happens in our world, too.

Please ignore the subtext in the previous paragraph.

[Lord_Butters_I]

D&D divinity rules are really up to the DM, aka Rich. I don't know about anyone else, but I say that if a mortal either kills a god or gets a god to imbue him with a portion of his/her power then (s)he becomes devine rank 0, and gets divine ranks by how many worshipers. But that's just me. Other DMs have been known to have a finite number of divine ranks among the gods and for a god to get more or for a mortal to get any they need to kill a god or convince a god to give up some ranks.

In OotS I would say that it's worshiper based, as Banjo the Clown is technicaly a god, abeit one with only one worshiper and therefore essentially no power. It's a pretty unanimous rule that the amount of worshipers governs how strong a god is.

[Shatteredtower]

Considering what Redcloak calls his deity, I wouldn't be surprised if the MitD either was his deity or an aspect of it. I mean, they've got a lot in common, when you think about it. :smallwink:

[Dunamin]

Considering what Redcloak calls his deity, I wouldn't be surprised if the MitD either was his deity or an aspect of it. I mean, they've got a lot in common, when you think about it. :smallwink:
Though an amusing thought, that's probably not the case considering how much verbal abuse he sends its way.

[BardicLasher]

All necesarry information on Redcloak's diety is explaind in Start of Darkness.

[Fighteer]

All necesarry information on Redcloak's diety is explaind in Start of Darkness.

And how. I still predict lots of threads speculating about the Dark One's alignment, though.

[Morty]

All necesarry information on Redcloak's diety is explaind in Start of Darkness.

For those who can buy it... dang:smallannoyed:


And how. I still predict lots of threads speculating about the Dark One's alignment, though.

Wait, isn't Dark One specifically stated to be evil? I mean, Xykon names him "evil goblin diety".

[Fighteer]

Wait, isn't Dark One specifically stated to be evil? I mean, Xykon names him "evil goblin diety".

If Redcloak's recounting of the Dark One's history to Xykon in SoD is to be believed, all goblinoids are cannon fodder created specifically for the purpose of giving cheap XP to the clerics of the other gods. The Dark One seeks to redress the imbalance by bringing the goblinoids up to equal footing with the rest of the humanoid races... no matter the cost.

Yes, you and I all know this is Evil according to the copy-and-paste definition, but many will say it justifies his (and Redcloak's) actions.

[Elfanatic]

RANT

Well, as we see in the Crayons of Time, Red's god is not a 'true' god: he/she/it was not at the beginning of time and did not create people or worlds in his/her/its own image. It came to power because of worship. It did not create, it was created.

As such, I think that the 'Goblin god' is simply not a god. * runs for cover *

Let me finish. As the High Priest of the Ori say in the series Stargate, a god is nothing but a powerfull being who is worshipped by people. The Goblin 'god' may well be very powerfull, but I doubt that there is a special heaven and/or hell for goblins, or that there are demons and/or angels the priesthood can summon for aid: all signs of godhood, or extraplanear bling-bling. The Goblin 'god' doesn't even have to be sentient: think of Gork and Mork, and the power of the Waaagh! (Orcs & Goblins, Warhammer Fantasy). There the green gods are best described as "sneaky hit" and "direct hit".

But lets look at it through the eyes of Red's god.

So: I AM A GOD!!! Well, not a real god, but I'm powerfull and being worshipped and sh*t. But there are other beings, real gods. They have more power and resources than me, and could hurt me and my followers. The goblin race is oppressed, seen by many races as unintelligent beasts. They are low-level encounters for PC's. It's a travesty!

But wait! What if I release the Snarl? I know where the gods hid their secret clubhouse. I could survive the undoing of creation. And then the gods would have no choice but give me a fair share of the world. They would need my help in imprisoning the Snarl again. I could recreate the goblin race: make them faster, make them stronger, make them smarter. They will finaly get the respect they deserve. And any goblin who performs above and beyond the call of duty will of course be resurrected in the new world (Redcloak, Priest-Father of the Goblin race :smalltongue: ).

[BardicLasher]

If Redcloak's recounting of the Dark One's history to Xykon in SoD is to be believed, all goblinoids are cannon fodder created specifically for the purpose of giving cheap XP to the clerics of the other gods. The Dark One seeks to redress the imbalance by bringing the goblinoids up to equal footing with the rest of the humanoid races... no matter the cost.

Yes, you and I all know this is Evil according to the copy-and-paste definition, but many will say it justifies his (and Redcloak's) actions.

Well, I'm not convinced that 'evil' and 'unjust' are always the same thing. I think Redcloak's entirely justified in attacking Azure City, but it's still evil.

[Fighteer]

Elfanatic, you should put your post in spoiler tags, since it discusses events in Start of Darkness.


Well, I'm not convinced that 'evil' and 'unjust' are always the same thing. I think Redcloak's entirely justified in attacking Azure City, but it's still evil.

You've got to remember that Redcloak was going to set aside his quest for "The Plan" and settle down until Xykon came back. Everything that's happened since then is tainted by the one unforgivable act that he commits at the end of the book. Justified or not, he's become irredeemable, unless he does finally choose to betray Xykon at the end. He's become quite a Darth Vader-ish figure, actually.

[BardicLasher]

You've got to remember that Redcloak was going to set aside his quest for "The Plan" and settle down until Xykon came back. Everything that's happened since then is tainted by the one unforgivable act that he commits at the end of the book. Justified or not, he's become irredeemable, unless he does finally choose to betray Xykon at the end. He's become quite a Darth Vader-ish figure, actually.

He's doing evil acts, yes, but they're justified. He's doing what's best for his people who are at an eternal war with humans that they were forced into. He's fluctuated in evilness throughout the course of the strip, but I'd say he's far from irredeemable... He went a long way recently with the hobgoblins.

[Elfanatic]

Elfanatic, you should put your post in spoiler tags, since it discusses events in Start of Darkness.

No offense, but I haven't read SoD yet (or bought it, for that matter). I just made some educated guesses. But in order to preserve the peace and make sure I don't find a decapitated horse's head in my bed, I will put it in a spoiler tag.

[Morty]

Then it seems that even if The Dark One is evil, his cause is just.


As such, I think that the 'Goblin god' is simply not a god. * runs for cover *

Why? It's commong thing in fantasy for people to create gods, not the other way around. Small Gods anyone?

[SPoD]

Yeah, a large portion of SoD is given over to explaining exactly what The Dark One's deal is, and what he expects from Redcloak.

I think if we assume that any of the gods in the OOTS world are "gods," we have to assume that The Dark One is too. There's no evidence that he is "lesser" than the others, except in that he wasn't around at the beginning and lacks certain knowledge.

[Fighteer]

He's doing evil acts, yes, but they're justified. He's doing what's best for his people who are at an eternal war with humans that they were forced into. He's fluctuated in evilness throughout the course of the strip, but I'd say he's far from irredeemable... He went a long way recently with the hobgoblins.
True, but he still has the 800-pound gorilla hanging over his head: the reason he's still working with Xykon at all. The concept that evil acts are justified in the service of a greater good is in itself an Evil way of thinking.


No offense, but I haven't read SoD yet (or bought it, for that matter). I just made some educated guesses. But in order to preserve the peace and make sure I don't find a decapitated horse's head in my bed, I will put it in a spoiler tag.
My apologies, then. You were pretty spot-on with your guessing. :-) However, D&D mythology (and fantasy mythology in general) offers plenty of examples of mortals becoming gods, and they're just as good at the job as the "real thing", whatever that means.

[Elfanatic]

My apologies, then. You were pretty spot-on with your guessing. :-) However, D&D mythology (and fantasy mythology in general) offers plenty of examples of mortals becoming gods, and they're just as good at the job as the "real thing", whatever that means.

True, but there are four rules for true godhood (as I see it, feel free to disagree).

The god in question must:
1. be immortal or close to it
2. have great power(s) and resources (priests, angels etc.)
3. be worshipped, and give his followers a good reason to worship him
4. have a special afterlife for his loyal followers, heaven and/or hell

Many powerfull beings have the first two, and a lot of 'destined heroes' the first three, but how many times do you hear about a mortal-made-god who presides over his own divine realm? Many of them don't even have any divine henchmen to do the dirty work.