Way around Vow of Poverty's Restrictions for construct crafting and epic spells?

[magicalmagicman]

I am really enjoying Vow of Poverty for roleplay reasons, not mechanic reasons. Getting by with 0 gp to pay for services is really fun! Along with Vow of Peace too!

The problem is though, I want to craft constructs as a sorcerer or bard, which requires use of scrolls.

Construct material costs also require you to own expensive stuff.

Also... golem manual.

And epic levels I want to develop epic spells and use Rod of Excellent Magic.

Is retraining VoP out the only option for me, or is there someway I can craft constructs with VoP?

Again, I'm really enjoying the vow's roleplay, but unless there is some temporary repercussions for violating the vows, it's not fun to play, which is why I get the feats despite not using any of their benefits.

Also, if you disqualify for VoP, do you lose all bonus feats? I can keep Vow of Peace with constructs, but the problem is, I'm used my bonus exalted feats for it!

[RoboEmperor]

You like planar binding right? Just have your bound creature craft it using Golem Manuals, and once it is done, have it order the construct to obey you. You might want to kill the creature afterwards or have a simulacrum do it for you.

It is the standard hireling work around, except you're doing it with a bound creature or simulacrum or the like. You're asking the outsider to buy the materials for a construct and craft it itself, and then ordering it to make the construct obey you and you alone, then you're killing the creature because it can overturn that command anytime it wants to.

This however is a bit unstable since if someone uses a rod of construct control to take over your construct, there is absolutely nothing you can do it get it back since you're not its creator.

Epic spells are the same. You can use the hireling's stuff to develop the epic spell just like you can use expensive components from an ally.

If I were you though, I'd stick with only Vow of Peace, or otherwise have none character related consequences for a vow of poverty, like you being kicked out of somewhere, or guys are gonna come after you. That way you don't waste a feat on something you don't care about mechanically.

[weckar]

If I'm not mistaken, the Golem Manual itself is a magical item. Therefore, even a summoned outsider could not use it on behalf of the VoP character. In fact, one could argue that the VoP character couldn't own/control any constructs at all as they are by their nature magical objects.

[unseenmage]

If I'm not mistaken, the Golem Manual itself is a magical item. Therefore, even a summoned outsider could not use it on behalf of the VoP character. In fact, one could argue that the VoP character couldn't own/control any constructs at all as they are by their nature magical objects.

Constructs as Magic Items winds up being a rules interpretation that the GM can instutute. The evidence for and against is all at GM discretion.

That said I lean towards that interpretation myself and ageee that a VoP character couldn't make/own them.

'Own' is probably the key word here. If VoP allows ownership of slaves then it could allow ownership of Constructs one presumes.

[RoboEmperor]

With the hireling workaround, you don't own the slave, your hireling does, and your hireling is making the slave serve you.

Now this can conflict with VoP under the "Can't borrow a cloak of Resistance" thing, but then again, a construct is a creature not a magic item, and you're allowed to accept help from your allies, just not their magic items except potions.

So I guess it all comes down to whether constructs are considered magic items, which I'm sure, they're not, just like how undead are not considered magic items.

[Psyren]

Constructs as Magic Items winds up being a rules interpretation that the GM can instutute. The evidence for and against is all at GM discretion.

Constructs in general - yes. But golems specifically are explicitly magic items, at least in 3.5.

[RoboEmperor]

Constructs in general - yes. But golems specifically are explicitly magic items, at least in 3.5.

Oh you're right. Found the RAW. So i guess you have ditch the VoP for golems, no way around it, unless the hireling is permanent, like from Leadership or Planar Cohort from Thaumaturgist.

[weckar]

Even if they weren't, the Golem Manual is a magic item (just checked). You'd have a hard time convincing any DM, I'd think, that it is not used on your behalf.

[RoboEmperor]

Even if they weren't, the Golem Manual is a magic item (just checked). You'd have a hard time convincing any DM, I'd think, that it is not used on your behalf.

I don't understand why this matters. Just like how an ally can use wands on you, your hireling can use the Golem Manual for you. Only problem is that the golem will be your hireling's creation not yours, which is why I've been suggesting using a simulacrum or kill your hireling if its a temporary one from planar binding.

[weckar]

I don't understand why this matters. Just like how an ally can use wands on you, your hireling can use the Golem Manual for you. Only problem is that the golem will be your hireling's creation not yours, which is why I've been suggesting using a simulacrum or kill your hireling if its a temporary one from planar binding.
Kill your hireling... technically Vow of Peace? I guess?

Also, yeah I kinda misremembered the rules there (Apologies) - but I got struck with another issue: Who is going to fund this endeavor? Constructs aren't cheap, and you wouldn't be able to provide the funds required...

[magicalmagicman]

Yeah thanks everyone. I'm gonna give up on this. I'll probably retrain the VoP when I get to the construct stage.

[Red Fel]

And let's not overlook the fact that we started this from a position of "I love the RP and fluff of Vow of Poverty" and moved straight into "How can my character work around his Vow of Poverty?"

Exalted feats require fluff dedication. It's not RAW, but seeking work-arounds for the sacrifices the character is making violates the spirit of the Vow. It's like if someone took Vow of Peace, and said, "Okay, now how can I successfully orchestrate an NPC's death?" You may not. I get that neither you nor your allies will be personally killing the NPC, but creating the situation in which you intend him to die violates the spirit of the Vow. So, too, is this; it's an attempt to deliberately gain a substantial material benefit that you have ostensibly forsworn.

Bothers me, is all.

[AnonymousPepper]

And let's not overlook the fact that we started this from a position of "I love the RP and fluff of Vow of Poverty" and moved straight into "How can my character work around his Vow of Poverty?"

Exalted feats require fluff dedication. It's not RAW, but seeking work-arounds for the sacrifices the character is making violates the spirit of the Vow. It's like if someone took Vow of Peace, and said, "Okay, now how can I successfully orchestrate an NPC's death?" You may not. I get that neither you nor your allies will be personally killing the NPC, but creating the situation in which you intend him to die violates the spirit of the Vow. So, too, is this; it's an attempt to deliberately gain a substantial material benefit that you have ostensibly forsworn.

Bothers me, is all.

Or, he just doesn't think it fits the fluff. *shrug*

Personally? I think you could get around the issue of owning a golem by paying it. >_>

[Deadline]

With the hireling workaround, you don't own the slave, your hireling does, and your hireling is making the slave serve you.

Book of Exalted Deeds explicitly lists Slavery as an evil act. That's not something an Exalted character can condone (well, they can, but they wouldn't be Exalted anymore, which means they also wouldn't have the VoP feat anymore either).

I'm with Red Fel on this one.

[Hecuba]

I'm going to take the OP at face value and assume that you are looking for a way around crunch that preserves the fluff.

It's worth noting that making magic items need not necessarily imply owning or using them. Any interpretation of Vow of Poverty that would not allow, for example, a member of a religious order to live a simple life in a monastic cell and do work for their religious order probably needs some additional flexibility added.

To my eye, the best way around the Vow of Poverty issue for construct creation is to make free-willed constructs or constructs that are the property and in the service of some organization you serve. From there, see if your DM will allow you to take one or more of said constructs as a cohort under Leadership (don't abuse it. Just don't) with it presented as a fellow ascetic who chooses to follow you.

Free-willed constructs seem better. You could re-fluff these warforged-esque constructs into something appropriately exalted (the echoing memories of sacred warriors and saints given form or what have you) and bypass the creation forge.

The key is they should not at any time be your property or exist in your personal service.

[unseenmage]

...

It's worth noting that making magic items need not necessarily imply owning or using them. ...
...

Crafting does require one to utilize crafting tools though, there's no getting around that.

However, the 3.0 spell from Savage Species called Minor Servitor will. It's just like Animate Objects except it creates a sentient, free-willed construct who is your friend.

Sandstorm's Awaken Sand spell also makes a sentient, free-willed construct. Check the Dust is Lazy link in my sig for ways to mske that spell rock out loud.

Not sure how you'd get access to said spells but they ARE ways to make unowned, noncrafted Constructs.

[Gildedragon]

You want the fluff but the crunch bothers you:
Don't take the feat; act it out anyway. Have your magic items be virtual items paid for with virtual gp: that is to say, you fluff the items as invisible, intangible things, emanations of your sanctity. There is no periapt of health, it is part of you; the +5/+5 quarterstaff is a gnarly unremarkable walking stick that has naturally developed magic by being near you; the robe you wear acts as platemail (itchiness leads to the acp and acf; your speed is naturally low; putting the robe on requires time because you wash it and yourself always before putting it on) because of your innate physical skill and virtue. Fluff can be changed at will (just talk with your DM).
If you want to play an ascetic that derives magic-item-like powers from their ascetism, just play one and ignore vow of poverty, you can do its benefits better.
But what, you may ask, about giving to the poor?

First: talk with your DM about what I am to suggest, this is the sort of thing that IS wholly innocuous if the DM is aware of it, but looks super bad if they aren't.
Assume that your magic items were created on the cheap (up to a 33% discount) so keep circa 33% of your gear's worth as tithing money. Coins you have and find for the purpose of giving to the poor and hungry and misfortuned; money with which to ransom slaves, pay temples for healing potions NOT meant for the party, etc. Overall, healing and feeding the poor has no mechanical bonus (except perhaps a one-time one-step-towards-helpful attitude change) but pure fluff... Or it can help move the story forward.
Giving the gp away doesn't even have much economic impact on PCs as they'll get the cash back by next level.

[Psyren]

Crafting does require one to utilize crafting tools though, there's no getting around that.

Improvised tools are free :smallbiggrin:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Improvised tools are free :smallbiggrin:They're also not on the list of approved items, and therefore break VoP.

[daremetoidareyo]

Domain access act from complete champ can give you access to warforged domain. Warforged domain allows for rebuke/commanding of constructs. Find other people's constructs, command them to obey you. Zero cost!

[Hecuba]

They're also not on the list of approved items, and therefore break VoP.

Indeed: to be clear, I'm recommending that a degree of raw flexibility be used for VOP, as long as everyone involved feels it keeps to the spirit of the rules on question.

Heaven knows the great needs it.