Why didn't Belkar take damage from the fireball? [spoilers]

[Zaldrak]

It's obvious that even Belkar himself was surprised... Why did he suddenly became immune to fireballs? Ideas?

[basilisk 89]

Evasion. He says it.

[Zaldrak]

Well, rangers do get evasion, but I find it strange Belkar didn't know he had it...

[ThorFluff]

Obviously, they've all gone up a lvl without noticing it, hence evasion.

[Spiryt]

Evasion. He says it.

Yeah, I was surprised he took damage here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html) anyway. He is halfling after all, he HAS good reflex save :smallwink:. And certainly was ranger 9 already.

[Porthos]

Well, rangers do get evasion, but I find it strange Belkar didn't know he had it...

Considering that Belkar doesn't use half of the Ranger Class Features, I'm not surprised at all that he didn't notice he had it until he needed it. :smalltongue:

[the_tick_rules]

oh right, i forgot rangers got that.

[Deuce]

Yeah, I was surprised he took damage here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html) anyway. He is halfling after all, he HAS good reflex save :smallwink:. And certainly was ranger 9 already.

Yes, a good reflex save, but he can still roll bad enough to fail sometimes.

[Eriol]

Considering that Belkar doesn't use half of the Ranger Class Features, I'm not surprised at all that he didn't notice he had it until he needed it. :smalltongue:
qft


Really, I'm surprised that Belkar functions AT ALL most days.

[truemane]

He functions on pure, undiluted spite.

Unleaded.

[factotum]

Yeah, I was surprised he took damage here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html) anyway.

But he didn't. If you look a bit further down you'll notice he has absolutely no signs of damage, even though he appeared to be caught right in the middle of the Fire Storm. Also, without Evasion he still would have taken half damage from the storm even if he made his Reflex save.

[A_S]

But he didn't. If you look a bit further down you'll notice he has absolutely no signs of damage, even though he appeared to be caught right in the middle of the Fire Storm. Also, without Evasion he still would have taken half damage from the storm even if he made his Reflex save.
But V, who clearly doesn't have evasion and therefore must have taken damage, also shows no signs of it afterward. I think they just weren't hurt enough for it to show up on their art (Rich has gotten more liberal with his damage markers as the strip has gone on). And the one person we know for sure avoided damage, Haley, is shown jumping out of the path of the spell, which Belkar is not, implying that he didn't have (or else, was unable to use, because of a failed save) Evasion.

[Porthos]

More importantly, Belkar is shown grimacing in pain during the Fire Storm. So count me in the "He failed his save" camp. :smallsmile:

[nerdnumber1]

I think Belkar would do better as a two weapon fighting specialized fighter (or rogue with the fighter bonus feat varient or possibly the Thug fighter varient) since all he really does is kill things with daggers. He could be even better with some non-core two-weapon fighting feats, but I don't think that the Giant wants to incure the wrath of the powerful wizards (who may or may not live by the coast).

[squidthingy]

or mabye the EoFaF didn't really want to hurt belkar and was just trying to scare him into letting him free

[MReav]

I don't even get why Belkar didn't realize he had Evasion. You see him clearly evading the Black Dragon's breath weapon.

[Alysar]

Yes, he's grimacing, but he might just be bracing himself for the damage he is expecting.

[Dunamin]

And the one person we know for sure avoided damage, Haley, is shown jumping out of the path of the spell, which Belkar is not, implying that he didn't have (or else, was unable to use, because of a failed save) Evasion.
It is most likely that he failed his save, rather than didn't have Evasion. After all, neither Haley nor Belkar jumped in comic 469 and both emerged unscathed.

[Draz74]

I don't even get why Belkar didn't realize he had Evasion. You see him clearly evading the Black Dragon's breath weapon.

Unless he was just barely outside the effect of the breath weapon. One square outside of the line effect? Fluff-wise, that could still inspire a "running away with a look of fear on face" thing.

[Emperor Ing]

In KOTOR, (VERY DnD-esque), High dexterity equals higher chances to evade the attack. I think that this is reflective of that. Besides, wouldn't using the evasion feat require you to actively get out of the way? Maybe belkar has some sort of fire damage immunity, or the skull failed to do damage. Dont forget haley didnt get damaged either.

[lonewolf23k]

I don't even get why Belkar didn't realize he had Evasion. You see him clearly evading the Black Dragon's breath weapon.

It's a running gag that Belkar mostly treats being a Ranger as a good way to get the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat for free. He lacks any sort of Tracking ability, has no Animal Companion, and can't cast spells because his Wisdom Score's lower then dirt...

[Chronos]

It's a running gag that Belkar mostly treats being a Ranger as a good way to get the Two-Weapon Fighting Feat for free.Nah, it's more than that. Rangers also get more skill points than fighters do. And even if he didn't take quite the same skills that most rangers do, Belkar does get good milage out of his Move Silently and Hide skills (when it suits him to). I don't think there's any good way to get those skills as a true fighter (they're cross-class, and with only 2+int bonus skill points per level, you can't afford very many cross-class skills).

[Demented]

Actually, Belkar is surprisingly effective at tracking, if you can keep his mind to it.

Of course, whether that's technically tracking, or just an instinctual knowledge of where sweaty humans congregate....

[starwoof]

Besides, wouldn't using the evasion feat require you to actively get out of the way?

Now thats a very common misconception. Evasion actually allows the character to open up a temporary gate to a parallel dimension called 'Rogue Space', and by stepping through that gate they avoid the damage caused without actually moving at all. :smalltongue:

[Alysar]

Now thats a very common misconception. Evasion actually allows the character to open up a temporary gate to a parallel dimension called 'Rogue Space', and by stepping through that gate they avoid the damage caused without actually moving at all. :smalltongue:

Yes, it is very similar to L-space.

[mockingbyrd7]

Now, I'm not an expert at D&D, but I've played, and if this were simply game-terms, Belkar would probably be best off taking two levels of Ranger for 2-Weapon Fighting, Animal Companion, stealth, etc., then switch to Fighter for higher hit dice, better armor possibilities, and more feats.

[Master_Forcide]

Now, I'm not an expert at D&D, but I've played, and if this were simply game-terms, Belkar would probably be best off taking two levels of Ranger for 2-Weapon Fighting, Animal Companion, stealth, etc., then switch to Fighter for higher hit dice, better armor possibilities, and more feats.

But then his experiance would dip due to multiclassing -- or at least it would if you count the levels of Barbarian he has. (Do Halflings get Ranger as a favored class?)

Besides, the party already has a Fighter.:smalltongue:

[JaxGaret]

Now thats a very common misconception. Evasion actually allows the character to open up a temporary gate to a parallel dimension called 'Rogue Space', and by stepping through that gate they avoid the damage caused without actually moving at all. :smalltongue:

Ha! Good one :) And fairly accurate, game mechanics wise.


Yes, it is very similar to L-space.

I would say it is more akin to Hammerspace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerspace).


On topic: this may or may not be the point where it is revealed that Belkar isn't a straight Ranger/Barbarian, and has levels in another class. Thus it would make sense that he is confused about gaining Evasion; he assumed that fighting the Hobbo horde would gain himself no XP, but it actually did, and raised his Ranger level to 9, thus garnering him Evasion. It is possible that since the characters were 3.0 to begin with, they don't know what 3.5 characters gain, and thus he did not know that at 9th level he would get Evasion.

All of that speculation would mean that he is a Ranger9/Barbarian1/Somethingelse3ish, since the party is just about 13th level now, IIRC.

[Oberon]

Now, I'm not an expert at D&D, but I've played, and if this were simply game-terms, Belkar would probably be best off taking two levels of Ranger for 2-Weapon Fighting, Animal Companion, stealth, etc., then switch to Fighter for higher hit dice, better armor possibilities, and more feats.



Well I'm assuming Belkar is similar to some of the people I've played with, in that he'sentirely unaware of his class features until someone tells him about them, and totally ignorant about what skills/feats would be good and just takes the ones that sounds cool. Therefore his biuld is probably pretty inefficient.

[The Familiar]

Now, I'm not an expert at D&D, but I've played, and if this were simply game-terms, Belkar would probably be best off taking two levels of Ranger for 2-Weapon Fighting, Animal Companion, stealth, etc., then switch to Fighter for higher hit dice, better armor possibilities, and more feats.

For the record, the "better armor" of Fighter would be wasted, since the Ranger Combat Style would be unusable in anything more than Light Armor.

However, Belkar did multiclass to Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0132.html) for the hit die and Rage, and when convinced that retreating is a good thing probably runs faster than Haley these days.

Sometimes multiclassing is a good thing, sometimes it's rather redundant and complicated, such as in the case of a Bard versus a fighter/rogue/sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)...:smalltongue:

There's more to life than just ability min-max and class optimization, otherwise, every character would start out as a 1st level Rogue just for the Skills bonanza, and Multiclass from there...


He lacks any sort of Tracking ability, has no Animal Companion

Belkar does have Track--he just has no ranks in Survival (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html) to boost it. Despite his...uh, shortcomings...he has demonstrated the ability to track when necessary; the trick is to get him motivated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0154.html) to do so.

He wants an Animal Companion (preferably (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0140.html) a canine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0432.html)), but what animal is nuts enough to bond with a character who (openly) feels everyone else is XP waiting to be harvested? I think the incident with the Eye of Fear and Flame illustrates why he hasn't attracted one yet (maybe ever): so long as Belkar can't play nice with his toys, any potential Animal Companion's sense of Self Preservation will override any desire to release the fury at his command. :smallwink:

[evileeyore]

He wants an Animal Companion (preferably (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0140.html) a canine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0432.html)), but what animal is nuts enough to bond with a character who (openly) feels everyone else is XP waiting to be harvested? I think the incident with the Eye of Fear and Flame illustrates why he hasn't attracted one yet (maybe ever): so long as Belkar can't play nice with his toys, any potential Animal Companion's sense of Self Preservation will override any desire to release the fury at his command. :smallwink:

No... what he wanted was a riding dog. Not a Companion.

What Belkar needs a wolverine or a badger. Something mean spirited and nasty enough to keep him from getting to close, but still mean spirited and nasty enough to get in the thick with him.

But just low enough in power to not steal his thunder.

Granted he'd probably still kill it out of hand, but....

[Kish]

For the record, the "better armor" of Fighter would be wasted, since the Ranger Combat Style would be unusable in anything more than Light Armor.
Whereas, if he just spent fighter bonus feats on the two-weapon fighting feats rangers get for free, he'd be able to use them in full plate. Mechnically, Belkar would have been much better off as a fighter. Of course--as a pure fighter, he would have had to go to Fighter College.

[Ampersand]

Why didn't Belkar take damage from the fireball? Because he's secretly a half-azer half-salamandar half-ifrit half-fire elmental half-gensai half-lava man half-red dragon half-gold dragon.

Obviously.

[Selgeron]

the only advantage he has from going ranger is that he doesn't need high dex to take the two weapon fighting feats and could thus just put his best stats into strength to do more damage. If he was a fighter he would have to have a dex into the 20s to get the best two weapon fighting feats, and that sort of leaves your strength behind. And belkar is already a halfling, so maybe this was the best way for him to do two weapon fighting and not have -1 damage to every swing.

[dogmac]

I think it is more than that.

You'll notice until Haley smashed the skull, none of the hobgoblins heard or noticed anything. But as soon as skully was gone, fireballs, sound, etc, noticed. So I think there is a deeper cause, I just don't know what.

Cheers

Di

[valis]

How come no one has mentioned this comic. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html

[Arnen]

How come no one has mentioned this comic. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html

He was unaffected by that because Unholy Blight would not harm someone who's Evil, like Belkar.

[Glyphic]

In this particular comic, it's proof that Belkar is Evil, and thus not affect by "unholy Blight", a spell that effects good-aligned creatures..

And Evasion wouldn't help here, anyway. Evasion works for Reflex saves that have damage assigned to them.

[Unrepentant]

Another ranger ability that I'm pretty sure Belkar has gotten a lot of use out of is Favored Enemy. My guess is Human and Goblinoid, however based on the smackdown he laid on Trigak the chimera and the hag, Magical Beast and Monsterous Humanoid are not out of the running. But from what I've seen, Human and Goblinoid are his selections.

[Unrepentant]

Granted he'd probably still kill it out of hand, but....

Not necessarily...I think Belkar would love having a mean spirited, violent animal companion. If it pooped on V while s/he was meditating, all the better.

[Gundato]

In this particular comic, it's proof that Belkar is Evil, and thus not affect by "unholy Blight", a spell that effects good-aligned creatures..

And Evasion wouldn't help here, anyway. Evasion works for Reflex saves that have damage assigned to them.

I think he might have been referring to the amulet. Did we ever find out what that does?

[Aquillion]

Another ranger ability that I'm pretty sure Belkar has gotten a lot of use out of is Favored Enemy. My guess is Human and Goblinoid, however based on the smackdown he laid on Trigak the chimera and the hag, Magical Beast and Monsterous Humanoid are not out of the running. But from what I've seen, Human and Goblinoid are his selections.My guess? Belkar's been houseruled to get a broader favored enemy than normal (like, say, favored enemy: Other sentients). This would be horribly broken in the hands of someone who was set to exploit it, but in his case it barely lets him keep up with everyone else.

I mean, can you really see Belkar choosing one specific type of creature to focus on killing?

[mockingbyrd7]

Another ranger ability that I'm pretty sure Belkar has gotten a lot of use out of is Favored Enemy. My guess is Human and Goblinoid, however based on the smackdown he laid on Trigak the chimera and the hag, Magical Beast and Monsterous Humanoid are not out of the running. But from what I've seen, Human and Goblinoid are his selections.

One of them has to be Kobold; he has openly said that he hates kobolds (strongly implied in the Oracle series, stated quietly in strip 44.)

My guesses are Human, Kobold, Goblinoid, although Kobold and Goblinoid would only be very useful at low levels. (Although, Belkar is focused almost 100% on the now and not on future planning, it seems.)

[Liliedhe]

As far as the Animal Companion is concerned, maybe Belkar wants to wait till he is Level 20 to get a Megaraptor or a Dire Tiger... Sounds like something Belkar would do... :smallbiggrin:

[The Familiar]

No... what he wanted was a riding dog. Not a Companion.

Riding Dog and Wolf are both on the list of available basic Companions, and the Alternate lists for higher levels only get more interesting: what's to stop him from wanting his Animal Companion Cake and ride it too? :smallwink:


Whereas, if he just spent fighter bonus feats on the two-weapon fighting feats rangers get for free, he'd be able to use them in full plate. Mechanically, Belkar would have been much better off as a fighter. Of course--as a pure fighter, he would have had to go to Fighter College.

That is true, but it takes time (levels) for a Fighter to get what a Ranger gets for free (and without the Dexterity requirement to boot)--and Belkar is not a Paragon of Patience.

Besides, plate mail is also noisy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0024.html) and Belkar would loose some of his freedom of movement (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0133.html).

[pjackson]

As far as the Animal Companion is concerned, maybe Belkar wants to wait till he is Level 20 to get a Megaraptor or a Dire Tiger... Sounds like something Belkar would do... :smallbiggrin:

No.
Belkar doesn't have the patience for that.

I have known players who have created similar characters, and Belkar seems very believable PC to me.

Belkar started as a ranger under 3.0 rules, when they were heavily front loaded.
The player might have looked at the rules seen that humans are a possible favoured enemy, and though it would be fun to play an evil halfling who likes killing humans.
Dual weapons, and sneaky skills also appealled.
Tracking didn't so he did not take any skill.
He thought of the character as a fighter type, so didn't allocate enough wisdom for future spell casting.
When they converted to 3.5 he relied on the DM and other players to tell him what the changes were and did not pay attention to gaining evasion when he found his weapons shrunk.
Probably he was rather disillusioned with the ranger class by then, but took the 11th level for Combat Style Mastery - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
He looked for another mellee class to switch to - not caring about the xp penalty, but wanting full BAB progression probbaly for the extra attacks it gives.
Fighter looked boring and required planning what feats to get, but raging looked fun so he chose barbarian.

He probably ignored the animal companion feature until mounts became an issue. Then he found out about riding dogs and the idea appealled, until he found that he would need to train it, and would need ranks in Handle Animal.
It is a class skill for Barbarian's though so it is still possible he could decide to get one. Maybe after seeing argent he would want a dire wolf, but he would need 3 more levels of ranger for that.

[evileeyore]

Riding Dog and Wolf are both on the list of available basic Companions, and the Alternate lists for higher levels only get more interesting: what's to stop him from wanting his Animal Companion Cake and ride it too? :smallwink:Lack of intellect.

[Squark]

In KOTOR, (VERY DnD-esque), High dexterity equals higher chances to evade the attack. I think that this is reflective of that. Besides, wouldn't using the evasion feat require you to actively get out of the way? Maybe belkar has some sort of fire damage immunity, or the skull failed to do damage. Dont forget haley didnt get damaged either.

KOTOR is based on the Star Wars RPG, which uses the d20 system, the same system D&D uses started.

[Elthanir]

Belkar does have Track--he just has no ranks in Survival (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html) to boost it. Despite his...uh, shortcomings...he has demonstrated the ability to track when necessary; the trick is to get him motivated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0154.html) to do so.

Possibly a better example (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0022.html)...

[darkelf]

Obviously, they've all gone up a lvl without noticing it, hence evasion.

erm, but they were on top of the walls before, and are now on the ground, which means they went down a level. :smallwink:

[see]

erm, but they were on top of the walls before, and are now on the ground, which means they went down a level. :smallwink:

Yeah, yeah, I remember that strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html) too.

Mind, someone at TSR did grab a thesaurus. To quote the 1e PHB:


The term level has multiple meaning in this game system. Although substitute terminology could have been used in ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, common usage of the term level to include multiple meanings is prevalent amongst existing players, so the term has been retained herein.
[…]
It was initially contemplated to term character power as rank, spell complexity was to be termed power, and monster strength was to be termed as order. Thus, instead of a 9th level character encountering a 7th level monster on the 8th dungeon level and attacking it with a 4th level spell, the terminology would have been: A 9th rank character encountered a 7th order monster on the 8th (dungeon) level and attacked it with a 4th power spell. However, because of existing usage, level is retained throughout with all four meanings, and it is not as confusing as it may now seem.
I note 3.x has replaced "level" with "challenge rating" to indicate monster threat potential. In exchange, we now have the rather more confusable mix of character level/effective character level/class level, and the difference between epic-level and epic class levels.

[Jodwin]

What I'm most surprised in is how no one has noticed, or mentioned, the inconsistency with the strip #34 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html) where we can see that the character/person has to be aware of his own abilities in order to use it. I guess we could assume that some Greater Being (a god, a theoretical DM, etc) is making Belkar use his evasion without him being aware of it, but that would be kinda silly. :smallsmile:

[evileeyore]

What I'm most surprised in is how no one has noticed, or mentioned, the inconsistency with the strip #34 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html) where we can see that the character/person has to be aware of his own abilities in order to use it.Ummmm, no.

In #34 all those bonuses are optional. Durkon doesn't automagically get them, he really does have to remember to use them (or so it would be in a TT RPG). However Evasion fundamentally alters the outcome of a Reflex Save.

Standard Reflex save is "Save for Half". Evasion makes that "Save for None". So the very fact that Belkar saved means he uses the altered save mechanics for his Reflex saves.


However yes, he likely had to be reminded by the Game Master... i know my players often need those hints....:smallwink:

[Fighteer]

What I'm most surprised in is how no one has noticed, or mentioned, the inconsistency with the strip #34 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html) where we can see that the character/person has to be aware of his own abilities in order to use it. I guess we could assume that some Greater Being (a god, a theoretical DM, etc) is making Belkar use his evasion without him being aware of it, but that would be kinda silly. :smallsmile:
This is not true. Characters always get all the bonuses or penalties that apply to them in any given situation. However, since we're talking about human beings here, it's entirely possible (and by that, I mean it happens all the time) for both the DM and the player to lose track of or forget a complex set of modifiers.

The strip was a gag on players who suddenly "remember" favorable modifiers after the outcome of an action has already been determined by the DM.

[Kreistor]

Heh... guys, the gag was the Giant poking fun for the Giant's own oversight. The Class and Level Geekery II thread has established that the characters are L13 pretty accurately, and Belkar wouldn't have gotten Barbarian until L12 at the earliest. That makes Belkar a L11 Ranger, and Rangers get Evasion at L9.

But Belkar has never been written with Evasion. Why?

Because the Giant overlooked it for 400+ comics. Belkar always had Evasion, but the Giant didn't realize he had it until something recently forced him to read the Ranger abilities table, and he suddenly realized Belkar had it. Call it an epiphany. It's nto the first time a player has had to have someone else point out that they have an ability they are overlooking.

[MReav]

But Belkar has never been written with Evasion. Why?

Because the Giant overlooked it for 400+ comics. Belkar always had Evasion, but the Giant didn't realize he had it until something recently forced him to read the Ranger abilities table, and he suddenly realized Belkar had it. Call it an epiphany. It's nto the first time a player has had to have someone else point out that they have an ability they are overlooking.

You know, I thought http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0182.html was specifically showing Belkar using Evasion. Maybe the Giant knew Belkar had Evasion, forgot about it, then forgot that he had shown Belkar using Evasion.

[Jodwin]

Ummmm, no.

In #34 all those bonuses are optional. Durkon doesn't automagically get them, he really does have to remember to use them (or so it would be in a TT RPG). However Evasion fundamentally alters the outcome of a Reflex Save.

Standard Reflex save is "Save for Half". Evasion makes that "Save for None". So the very fact that Belkar saved means he uses the altered save mechanics for his Reflex saves.


However yes, he likely had to be reminded by the Game Master... i know my players often need those hints....:smallwink:

I don't really see what difference it makes in between, say, a racial attack bonus against goblinoids and evasion when it comes to applying them due to the character's lack of knowledge about their own abilities, but thanks for agreeing and disagreeing at the same time, I guess. :smallamused:



This is not true. Characters always get all the bonuses or penalties that apply to them in any given situation. However, since we're talking about human beings here, it's entirely possible (and by that, I mean it happens all the time) for both the DM and the player to lose track of or forget a complex set of modifiers.

The strip was a gag on players who suddenly "remember" favorable modifiers after the outcome of an action has already been determined by the DM.

So are you saying that even if Roy had not reminded Durkon about his improved combat abilities in #34, he still would have been able to use them? Since that didn't really seem to be the case...which is exactly what I'm getting at here: Someone had to mention Durkon about his improved combat abilities in order for them to take effect in #34, this is a fact. From a storytelling point of view, if this unwritten "rule" is true for each and every character for them to use any of their abilities, then Belkar must be aware of his Evasion in order to use it - regardless of who reminded him of his Evasion. It could just as well be the theoretical DM, a party member, or anything else.

But if he was able to use his Evasion without being aware of it himself in any way, there's an inconsistency with #34 from a storytelling point of view. This is merely stating a fact, which everyone and their dogs can read from the strips for themselves.


And in case it wasn't clear enough yet: I'm not trying to argue anything, I'm just stating a seemingly overlooked fact. Whether it's an oversight from Rich's part or not doesn't really matter, rather I'm surprised that the geekery in this topic hasn't strayed into the area of more or less consistent writing and what it means for the applications of DnD rules in the context of this here story. :smallconfused:

[Spiky]

The only times G has mentioned Evasion, the character did not move, got blasted, but took no damage. Compare 19 and 470. All the other comics where Haley or Miko or others dodge are probably something else. Is there some form of physical dodge?

[Spiky]

So are you saying that even if Roy had not reminded Durkon about his improved combat abilities in #34,

You're missing the point. It was a joke on players, not PCs. It was Roy's player that told Durkon's player that he had all these features to use. It was a joke outside the comic, but shown in the comic.

The jokes about Belkar "forgetting" he has tracking skills and other abilities are also usually this kind of joke.