Can Druids in Elemental-form wear armor, use weapons or carry other magic items?

[NiklasWB]

Hi guys,

I've tried searching for the answer for this but I haven't found anything.

Basically I've been toying with the idea of a water themed Circle of the Moon druid. I really like to have a theme when it comes to characters like the druid since they are otherwise kind of all over the place with their abilities and spells. So I picked water... sounds fun. Then I started reading up on Water Elementals.

Moving forward, one thing that struck me when researching this character was that I can't find anything on whether my character would be able to still use armor or weapons when in Elemental form (after level 10).

I mean, reading the rules on Wildshape in the PHB it seems that as long as the form you Wildshape into can physically use the items, they should be fair game. So, wildshape into a bear, a lot of items become off limits, but wildshape into a human sized ape... a lot more (if not all) items would be available. Then comes the elementals and in essence my question is this: can they wear armor and use weapons that my character could use in their normal form? Take a water elemental for example... their liquid-like form would very much be able to fit into a suit of armor or wrap its 'hands' around a weapon... So that should work, right? There is also the Elemental Myrmidon monsters from the Princes of the Apocalypse adventure... They all wear armor and carry weapons, and they are simply somewhat stronger elementals. So there's more evidence that an elemental can carry a weapon or use armor than any evidence to the contrary. Or am I missing something?

I think Air and Water and Elementals and should be easier to justify since they can wrap around things easier but still maintain some sort of 'mass'. The same could be said about Fire Elementals, but there you have the whole deal about actually burning or melting the items you carry (not necessarily a problem with magic items). Earth Elemental have a more 'set' and solid shape that would make it harder to accommodate armor, but a big weapon should probably work.

What do you guys think? Does this make Elementals too powerful? The AC could theoretically become a bit higher than the Elementals usually have by adding some of the medium armors (if not made of metal). The weapons however probably wouldn't add a lot to damage since the Elementals can only use their Multiattack with their special attacks.

I would appreciate any input before I decide to go ahead and finalize the character concept.

[hymer]

Ask your DM. Sorry, but there it is. The rules are silent on wild shapes using items except for a few (ambiguous) cases, and it will be up to the DM to decide on armour and weapons for water elementals.

[Eriol]

I echo what Hymer said, but I would also ask, how do you think your attacks will be calculated? What types of weapons will you use that will be better than the dice that Elementals already use? And how that impacts what the DM will allow and such.

Basically, if for thematic reasons, you can probably find a way, but be careful that you'll achieve what you think you'll achieve in case of combat advantage. It may be no advantage at all!

[Regitnui]

Well, the polymorph or "Change Shape" rules in the MM say that the equipment is merged with or carried by the form; I'd personally go with the items merging with you if you wildshape, but you could pick up other weapons and use them.

[MaxWilson]

Hmmm. It's already known that a Mage Armored Air Elemental has an AC of 18, but you're right--what happens if that air elemental picks up a shield? Druids already have shield proficiency...

I don't think you can improve much if at all on your natural attacks (2d8+5 is already better than a greatsword) but with a shield you could hit AC 20. Definitely something I'll be keeping in mind for my next moon druid. In fact, maybe I'll even pick up the Shield Master feat so I can use my bonus action in wildshaped form.

[dejarnjc]

Well, the polymorph or "Change Shape" rules in the MM say that the equipment is merged with or carried by the form; I'd personally go with the items merging with you if you wildshape, but you could pick up other weapons and use them.

Wildshape rules let you choose what happens to your equipment.

[NiklasWB]

I've got to say I'm a bit surprised people don't seem to want to go outside the "Ask the DM"-comfort zone on this. I mean, it goes without saying that the DM has the final say. I'm usually the DM of our group, so the decision will probably be up to me and the guy that will be taking over as DM when I get to play.

If we assume that it's a given that the DM will get to have the final say, how would you guys rule this one as DMs? Since the Wildshape rules clearly specify that the Player decides whether the items are (a) merged with the new form, (b) drops to the ground or (c) are worn (and only if it's physically possible due to size and shape), I don't see any real reason why an elemental couldn't use armor or weapons in terms of RAW. Size and shape is a bit of a non-issue with elementals, especially water, fire and air.

As I pointed out in my original post, the damage outpost while using a weapon in Elemental form would probably be less effective than using the Elemental's natural attacks (which also have Multi Attack, something the druid doesn't have unless he multi-classes). The only benefit of using weapons would be if the items grant any abilities or spells other than pure attack or damage increase. So this would be a more of a flavor thing, and would not offset balance. You're pretty much forced to still use Slam (or the other equivalent elemental attacks), but having a weapon can have thematic reasons or grant magical benefits.

Armor on the other hand could probably bump up a druid's AC a fair bit. Say you are a Water Elemental with 14 in AC and 14 in DEX. Put on a non-metal Half Plate (you retain your proficiency in medium armor since it is derived from your class) and a shield, and your AC all of the sudden jumps to 17+2=19. That's a fair bit more protection. However, this would also mean you would have to find a non-metal Half Plate in the first place.

In terms of other items it gets a bit more unclear... I'd say that the bigger the item is, the easier for the elemental to realistically use it. Rings and similar small items would probably be harder to maintain it's shape inside off (without 'slipping out'), while Bracers and Helmets would be easier.

When it comes to my particular character concept I was mostly looking to have a non-metal Half Plate of Elemental Water be part of his backstory and heritage, as well as a trident or spear. So the character would probably get an AC of 17 (no shield) instead of 14 in elemental form... That hardly seems overpowered (seeing as Earth Elemental already has 17 AC). Neither does being able to do a single 1d8+4 attack with a trident or spear in elemental form as opposed to two attacks at +7 that does 2d8 + 4 damage.

[hymer]

If we assume that it's a given that the DM will get to have the final say, how would you guys rule this one as DMs?

I'd rule it so that the elementals would not benefit from using weapons, and generally speaking could not wear armour (barding would be okay for animal shapes). I could see the sense in homebrewing magical items to support wild shape combat potential, but I would certainly not make a blanket ruling that the four basic elementals can and do use weapons and armour.

[Giant2005]

What about casting spells in Elemantal form? Unlike Beasts, Elementals have all of the tools required to cast spells (they can speak, and have hands).

[hymer]

What about casting spells in Elemantal form? Unlike Beasts, Elementals have all of the tools required to cast spells (they can speak, and have hands).

There's a blanket ban on spellcasting in wild shape (until lvl 17 18, of course).
Edit: And going beyond that, since we're discussing semi-hypotheticals here, I would most definitely not allow it. It's a tremendous boost to moon druids, and therefore a relative downgrade of the land druid.

[Eriol]

Armor on the other hand could probably bump up a druid's AC a fair bit. Say you are a Water Elemental with 14 in AC and 14 in DEX. Put on a non-metal Half Plate (you retain your proficiency in medium armor since it is derived from your class) and a shield, and your AC all of the sudden jumps to 17+2=19. That's a fair bit more protection. However, this would also mean you would have to find a non-metal Half Plate in the first place.
I'd be REALLY careful with that. Both mechanically and flavour-wise. AC is kind of a weird stat, in that it integrates "resistance to smashing/cutting" via the toughness of leather, hide, or steel, and also can integrate "ability to dodge" via DEX. This comes most obviously to a head with the "Draconic Resilience" feature of Sorcerer, in that it specifically says "When you aren't wearing armour, your AC is 13 + dex modifier." This clearly indicates how if you layer over steel armour, you don't keep the 13 as base. And in most heavier-armour cases, you'd also lose your DEX bonus, since that's not contributing.

My point here with regards to Wild Shape is that how much of the 14 (or 17, or whatever) of a monster/beast/elemental's AC is each of those components? Shields are pretty blanket as adding AC, but armour is kind of a "maybe it does, maybe it doesn't!" kind of case. It's easy to imagine that an Air Elemental's AC is nearly all DEX-based, whereas with Water it could be similar in that it can "shape itself" out of the way of attacks. If you start making it conform to the shape of armour, it's easy to justify the idea that it's less dextrous, and thus its AC should drop from that too.

When you start messing with non-humanoid things, the rules aren't necessarily as obvious as "you can 'wear' it, and thus I get more +AC!" IMO. I'd rule that if they want to, you could wear it, but it'd basically be no difference, and perhaps even worse in some cases.

[Giant2005]

There's a blanket ban on spellcasting in wild shape (until lvl 17, of course).
Edit: And going beyond that, since we're discussing semi-hypotheticals here, I would most definitely not allow it. It's a tremendous boost to moon druids, and therefore a relative downgrade of the land druid.

Interestingly, the level 18 ability doesn't actually allow you to cast spells in Elemental form - it specifies beast forms.

[Giant2005]

I'd be REALLY careful with that. Both mechanically and flavour-wise. AC is kind of a weird stat, in that it integrates "resistance to smashing/cutting" via the toughness of leather, hide, or steel, and also can integrate "ability to dodge" via DEX. This comes most obviously to a head with the "Draconic Resilience" feature of Sorcerer, in that it specifically says "When you aren't wearing armour, your AC is 13 + dex modifier." This clearly indicates how if you layer over steel armour, you don't keep the 13 as base. And in most heavier-armour cases, you'd also lose your DEX bonus, since that's not contributing.

My point here with regards to Wild Shape is that how much of the 14 (or 17, or whatever) of a monster/beast/elemental's AC is each of those components? Shields are pretty blanket as adding AC, but armour is kind of a "maybe it does, maybe it doesn't!" kind of case. It's easy to imagine that an Air Elemental's AC is nearly all DEX-based, whereas with Water it could be similar in that it can "shape itself" out of the way of attacks. If you start making it conform to the shape of armour, it's easy to justify the idea that it's less dextrous, and thus its AC should drop from that too.

When you start messing with non-humanoid things, the rules aren't necessarily as obvious as "you can 'wear' it, and thus I get more +AC!" IMO. I'd rule that if they want to, you could wear it, but it'd basically be no difference, and perhaps even worse in some cases.

None of that would even matter because the AC wouldn't interact with any natural AC of the form. Only the armor's value would count for anything, + the form's Dex modifier (or part of it) if the armor is light or medium.

[hymer]

Interestingly, the level 18 ability doesn't actually allow you to cast spells in Elemental form - it specifies beast forms.

But to be completely confusing, it also says 'any shape you assume using wild shape' (IIRC). :smallsigh: And you're right, 18th lvl, of course.

[NiklasWB]

None of that would even matter because the AC wouldn't interact with any natural AC of the form. Only the armor's value would count for anything, + the form's Dex modifier (or part of it) if the armor is light or medium.

Well, the Princes of the Apocalypse book tells us that Elemental Myrmidon (basically elementals in plate armor) have an AC of 18 (like anyone in plate armor would). It would be logical to assume that the elemental wearing medium armor would then get an AC of (base AC of the armor in question + DEX).

I also think the idea of an elemental becoming less dexterous in an armor that clearly grants AC according to DEX score is flawed. A normal player character doesn't get less dexterous (or suffer an AC-drop) when wearing medium armor. Even if the AC is scaled back to a maximum of +2 in DEX, they are still potentially very dexterous and their DEX score stays the same. The same should apply to an elemental. A water elemental has an AC of 14 (natural armor). Replace that with a half-plate and you remove the natural armor benefit, but you swap it with the benefit of the half-plate. It's the same as with monks, barbarians and sorcerers. If you wear armor, you calculate the armor according to the "normal armor rules". And the normal armor rules would give an elemental 15+2=17 since it has a dexterity of 14 (ie. +2). So this is the same as "Draconic Resilience" or "Unarmored Defence". Instead of having an AC of 14 through a special ability, you gain the "normal" AC of wearing one particular set of medium armor based on the armor itself and your DEX score.

[dev6500]

Elementals are depicted as being humanoid in form and so are just as capable as other humanoid creatures of using equipment designed for humanoids. I could imagine a earth, air, or water elemental using a weapon. Also do note that elementals are large and therefore could use weapons meant for a large creature. A large greatsword does double the weapon dice of a regular greatsword so (4d6 instead of 2d6).

In the area of armor, elementals are large and regular medium armor would not fit them anyway.

[Vogonjeltz]

Interestingly, the level 18 ability doesn't actually allow you to cast spells in Elemental form - it specifies beast forms.

Actually, it says "beast shape" which is the term used by the Wild Shape class feature to differentiate from a Druid's "normal form".

So, as written, you can do spellcasting in the form of an elemental.


Moving forward, one thing that struck me when researching this character was that I can't find anything on whether my character would be able to still use armor or weapons when in Elemental form (after level 10).

MM page 123 describes the elementals.

Air, Water, and Fire elementals lack solidity being made of Air, Fire, and Water respectively. Any armor or weapon would simply fall through them. (Also, see their Air Form; Fire Form; and Water Form features.)

Even though it's possible for the earth elemental, being earth and stone, to hold and wear things, the size (large) makes it impossible to wear the medium sized armor, nor would weapons sized for the druid be as effective as the natural slam attack it already makes.

So, I'd say no, weapons/armor good for the druid are useless and unusable for the beast shape as any elemental.

[Quintessence]

Well, the polymorph or "Change Shape" rules in the MM say that the equipment is merged with or carried by the form; I'd personally go with the items merging with you if you wildshape, but you could pick up other weapons and use them.

Druid wildshape rules clearly state you can choose to have items merge with the new form, be worn by the new form if able, or have them simply drop to the ground.

[NiklasWB]

MM page 123 describes the elementals.

Air, Water, and Fire elementals lack solidity being made of Air, Fire, and Water respectively. Any armor or weapon would simply fall through them. (Also, see their Air Form; Fire Form; and Water Form features.)

Even though it's possible for the earth elemental, being earth and stone, to hold and wear things, the size (large) makes it impossible to wear the medium sized armor, nor would weapons sized for the druid be as effective as the natural slam attack it already makes.

So, I'd say no, weapons/armor good for the druid are useless and unusable for the beast shape as any elemental.

Ok, so I've read through the entire page 123 very carefully and I couldn't find any mentioning of the elementals lacking solidity. It states that the elemental exist as shapeless beings on their respective Elemental Planes but that they are made physical when brought to the Material Plane. Again, we know that elementals CAN most definitely wear armor (Elemental Myrmidons in Princes of the Apocalypse book), the question is simply if one should allow a druid to wear armor in their specific Elemental Wild Shape.

Size (being large creatures) may be a slight issue and would probably affect Earth Elemental to the point of them not being able to use it, since their form is not as malleable as the rest. However, Water-, Air- and Fire Elementals are able to shape their bodies to squeeze through small spaces, which means they would also be able to squeeze into a regular sized armor without problem.

[Karion]

A large greatsword does double the weapon dice of a regular greatsword so (4d6 instead of 2d6).

Really? Could you please provide a source for that?

[RickAllison]

Really? Could you please provide a source for that?

Page 278 of the DMG. It's in the section on recalculating CR in the subsection on damage.

[Karion]

Page 278 of the DMG. It's in the section on recalculating CR in the subsection on damage.

Thanks, will make sure to read that when I get to my books.

[Gwendol]

Ok, so I've read through the entire page 123 very carefully and I couldn't find any mentioning of the elementals lacking solidity.

You mean except for "An air elemental is a funneling cloud of whirling air with a vague semblance of a face." or "A faint humanoid shape threads through the core of this wild, moving flame.", or "A water elemental is a cresting wave that rolls across the ground, becoming nearly invisible at it courses through a larger body of water."? (bolded for emphasis)

Not to mention the fact that all three can enter other creatures space should give you a hint that their form is not solid, and that if they somehow still were able to don armor that ability would no longer work. Finally, they are all large which means the druids gear will not fit anyway.

[NiklasWB]

You mean except for "An air elemental is a funneling cloud of whirling air with a vague semblance of a face." or "A faint humanoid shape threads through the core of this wild, moving flame.", or "A water elemental is a cresting wave that rolls across the ground, becoming nearly invisible at it courses through a larger body of water."? (bolded for emphasis)

Not to mention the fact that all three can enter other creatures space should give you a hint that their form is not solid, and that if they somehow still were able to don armor that ability would no longer work. Finally, they are all large which means the druids gear will not fit anyway.

Again, we KNOW that elementals CAN wear armor (Elemental Myrmidons in Princes of the Apocalypse book)... that is undisputable, at least in the Forgotten Realms 5e. See for example: Water Elemental Myrmidon (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/00/a0/23/00a02340cff27b520f7bd3b7c23ac3ee.jpg)

Furthermore, the very fact that an Elemental can shape itself to become somewhat humanoid in shape makes the argument about lacking solidity invalid. The water, air or fire that they are made up out of obviously can exert force in different ways and directions than normal air, water or fire would be able to... So one has to keep 'magic' in mind. It's not 'norma'l air, water or fire we're talking about after all. But while we are on the subject - air moving creates pressure, water moving creates pressure, even fire moving creates some sort of pressure, so it's is not really a stretch to think that armor could be held aloft simply by the movement and pressure of the Elemental's 'body'.

The 'Large being'-restriction also shouldn't be set in stone when it comes to creatures that can shape their bodies. In this instance I think logic would trump a general rule which applies in 99,9 % of the time to creatures made out of flesh. I mean, the RAW may say no, but sometimes the RAW simply hasn't taken everything into account.

[hymer]

I realize you don't want to hear this. Nevertheless: You're putting an awful lot of emphasis on a fairly small detail, there, and making some rather sweeping assumptions from it. We know that in one particular adventure and world, someone can create a myrmidon by binding a free elemental into a ritually created suit of plate armour. Although this armour is (probably) made and enchanted specifically to accomodate this myrmidon, these bound elementals are noticeably hampered by the armour. The air elemental's speed is reduced to a third, the earth elemental loses earth glide, and so on.
It is quite a leap to go from this specific, magical ritual, to make any general assumptions about armour for elementals, other than that it is obviously not easily accomplished.

[Gwendol]

Furthermore, the very fact that an Elemental can shape itself to become somewhat humanoid in shape makes the argument about lacking solidity invalid.

No, it doesn't. The shape the element takes does not make it more or less solid (water is more dense than gas, after all). The myrmidon is a special case, and there is not supporting evidence of it being a general case.

[NiklasWB]

I realize you don't want to hear this. Nevertheless: You're putting an awful lot of emphasis on a fairly small detail, there, and making some rather sweeping assumptions from it. We know that in one particular adventure and world, someone can create a myrmidon by binding a free elemental into a ritually created suit of plate armour. Although this armour is (probably) made and enchanted specifically to accomodate this myrmidon, these bound elementals are noticeably hampered by the armour. The air elemental's speed is reduced to a third, the earth elemental loses earth glide, and so on.
It is quite a leap to go from this specific, magical ritual, to make any general assumptions about armour for elementals, other than that it is obviously not easily accomplished.
It's not about me wanting to hear it or not, I just don't find the evidence against them being able to use armor to be particularly strong. You say the Myrmidons pertain to one particular adventure, setting and world, well ok, but come on... it is still official D&D, its an official adventure, the Forgotten Realms is pretty much the standard/most well know/widely used setting, so I'm pretty sure what goes in the Forgotten Realms can be said to be the norm, not an exception. It doesn't much more official than that. And yes, the Myrmidons have ritually grafted to armor, but nowhere does it say that those armor should in any way be seen as special other than how they are formed. "Suits of plate armor" is the term used, which as far as we know are just Plate Armor. The AC of 18 even supports this. You then go on to make assumptions that those armor are "made and enchanted specifically to accomodate this myrmidon". I don't believe there is anything to support this claim. About the speed of the Elementals in armor you are only partially right. The water Elemental is actually faster in armor than out of it (40 feet on land compared to 30 feet), but becomes slower when swimming.


No, it doesn't. The shape the element takes does not make it more or less solid (water is more dense than gas, after all). The myrmidon is a special case, and there is not supporting evidence of it being a general case.
I guess you chose to skip over what I said about 'magic' and the fact that the Elementals aren't made up of 'ordinary' water, air or fire. But anyway I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this. As has already been pointed out, it is all up to the DM.

[Gwendol]

You are the one pointing to the myrmidon as evidence of elementals in general being able to wear armor. That they may be able to carry the armor does not mean they can benefit from wearing them, and they certainly are not proficient with armor.

[NiklasWB]

You are the one pointing to the myrmidon as evidence of elementals in general being able to wear armor. That they may be able to carry the armor does not mean they can benefit from wearing them, and they certainly are not proficient with armor.
Ok, that makes no sense whatsoever. The question is about whether a Druid in Elemental form can wear and use the armor. If Elementals can wear armor (meaning any armor at all), then a Druid in Elemental form most certainly can benefit from it and are most certainly proficient in it (Druids retain all features gained because of their race and class. Druids are proficient in light and medium armor. Only heavy armor would be a no-go).

My reasoning comes from the combination of:

A: Elementals are physically capable of wearing armor as evident by the Myrmidons. It doesn't fall right through them and they retain some sort of magical or non-magical mass. There is nothing to support that the Myrmidons should be seen as an exception, rather than an indication of the nature of Elementals in general.

B: Most elementals are malleable enough to fill the space of any armor-sized container, and can therefore fill the space of a light or medium armor. This would also counter the restriction of Large creatures normally not being able to use medium sized armor.

C: Druids are proficient in light and medium armor. These proficiencies carry over when they wildshape.

Conclusion: Druids should be able to carry and benefit from light and medium armor even in Elemental Form. It may restrict their movement speed somewhat in some cases, and would restrict them from squeezing through small spaces (that the armor is too bulky to pass through), but those would be the only main limitations.

Either way, you seem set on not wanting to allow this, and that's fine, I'm obviously not going to change your mind. Much as I expected though, the reasons for not wanting to allow this seems to have more to do with some people not 'liking' the idea, and less about what makes sense.

[Karion]

B: Most elementals are malleable enough to fill the space of any armor-sized container, and can therefore fill the space of a light or medium armor. This would also counter the restriction of Large creatures normally not being able to use medium sized armor.

If you're a Large creature that somehow fit into a smaller armor it would not cover as much of your body as required to get the full benefit from the armor. I'm imagining a tall and slender elf putting on a chain mail made for a halfling - it'd be sorta like a sports bra, and certainly should not give as much AC to the elf as to the halfling.

Anyway, if I was DMing I'd probably just ask the player to meld their gear into their new form and not get any benefit from it - from balance reasons more than anything else. Not that I think it would break the game or anything, but it seems like an unnecessary buff to the druid.

[Regitnui]

I'm imagining a tall and slender elf putting on a chain mail made for a halfling - it'd be sorta like a sports bra, and certainly should not give as much AC to the elf as to the halfling.


You know somebody somewhere insists their elf archer gets full AC from that amount of armour. Unrealistic as it may be.

Also, I wonder if that might not be a viable business? Providing half-sized 'stripper armour' for burlesque shows and adventurer taverns. There has to be somebody making all the metal bikinis.

[Vogonjeltz]

Ok, so I've read through the entire page 123 very carefully and I couldn't find any mentioning of the elementals lacking solidity. It states that the elemental exist as shapeless beings on their respective Elemental Planes but that they are made physical when brought to the Material Plane. Again, we know that elementals CAN most definitely wear armor (Elemental Myrmidons in Princes of the Apocalypse book), the question is simply if one should allow a druid to wear armor in their specific Elemental Wild Shape.

Size (being large creatures) may be a slight issue and would probably affect Earth Elemental to the point of them not being able to use it, since their form is not as malleable as the rest. However, Water-, Air- and Fire Elementals are able to shape their bodies to squeeze through small spaces, which means they would also be able to squeeze into a regular sized armor without problem.

Shape is not solid. And on 123 it has descriptions of what Air/Fire/Water elementals are. The Air/Fire/Water elementals are still just air/fire/water, that respectively is incapable of supporting or holding matter. Each of them also a a feature, Air Form, Fire Form, or Water Form, respectively, that indicates they can effortlessly coexist in the same space as any creature. These specifics are found on the very next pages, 124-125.

When researching information, I recommend not artificially constraining ones self to a single page.


You know somebody somewhere insists their elf archer gets full AC from that amount of armour. Unrealistic as it may be.

They can insist all they want, but they are wrong insofar as the rules of the game go (PHB page 144) so being super super insistent wouldn't do them any good.