Could Asmodeus and Nyarlathotep be the same individual?

[Xuldarinar]

Impossible, right? One is LE and the other is CE, but could it be the case? Vigilantes can have multiple alignments, so why can't some of the oldest and most powerful entities?

The only real thing I can lean upon is that one or more of his forms lines up with depictions of the devil. The Black Man being the one to point to. But thats within the works of lovecraft, not Pathfinder.

So I ask the following;

Could they be be the same entity?
If so, how do you think this would manifest? How did it begin?
If not, why? Could they have some other connection?



While I posted this elsewhere first (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2to2c?Could-Asmodeus-and-Nyarlathotep-be-the-same), the seed that developed into this idea was on these forums and I want to see the thoughts of two separate forums in this one.

Also, thanks to this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20777421&postcount=9) for getting me thinking about this in the first place.

[Vwrt]

If it seems like it's going to be fun to play out, go for it. It's your campaign, so Nyarlahotep can be Colonel Sanders if you like. In one of my campaigns, Asmodeus was behind the myth of Saint Prick, who journeyed once a year to the rulers of several of the outer planes to bring them presents and secretly lay the groundwork for a later betrayal/invasion of those realms once they'd been lulled into a false sense of complacency by regularly receiving generous tribute without having to demand it. The sky's the limit.

It seems to me that Nyarlahotep and Asmodeus are both entities who play the long game, patiently building to long term goals. In his first appearance, the original Lovecraft short story, Nyarlahotep travels the world in human form slowly gathering an army of sinister recruits, and that's something Azzy could also do, although one tends to think that lords of hell might be inclined to send minions to do that for them. They could certainly be the same entity building two different power bases for itself, and if I were putting together a campaign like that my first impulse would be to present them both as campaign antagonists and hint to the characters that they might be able to play one against the other before they eventually have the holy crap moment of the big reveal. Maybe one of them got the drop on the other with some sort of mcguffin and imprisoned them to take their place, giving opportunity to derail the plot with their release. Or maybe even the mind of a lord of hell is capable of fracturing in the face of the unspeakable and indescribable elder things Lovecraft was fond of insinuating, and he grew a split personality when confronted with something even more horrible than himself. He could even be working against his own best interests without realizing it. I say go for it. Devils are excellent antagonists to begin with, and I like indescribably awful Lovecraftian things even better, so I can't see any down side to stirring a bit of both in the same campaign bowl and serving it up. Have fun!

[Tuvarkz]

Besides the mechanical limitations of the Vigilante class, there's the issue of planar outsiders being made of alignment-charged stuff. The mere tendency towards order that would form around Nyalartothep if Asmodeus was the one behind the mask, or the reality-warping that would form around Asmodeus's throne in Hell if the devil was the mask would clearly tip off the whole situation. And then, we can all guess that Asmodeus is too pragmatical to make the suboptimal choice of taking a class outside of a fullcaster progression.

[weckar]

I don't know. I could see either of them finding ways to suppress those effects, and it wouldn't be an unreasonable take on Asmodeus to think he'd be playing both sides of the board if for no other reason than to have more pawns to move into place. Although I can see no easy justification for Nyarlathotep being the 'original', just a guise by Asmy.

Although I wonder whether I'll ever make an Asmodeus-related post that doesn't involve chess somehow...

[inuyasha]

Besides the mechanical limitations of the Vigilante class, there's the issue of planar outsiders being made of alignment-charged stuff...
I have been summoned to this thread!
Okay, so, while what I have to say isn't strictly Pathfinder, I do feel that I should point out the fact that outsiders can in theory change alignment, such as with fallen celestials in the like. And it can happen on a deity-level scale. I'm pretty sure Xuldarinar knows about Pelor the Burning Hate, but I'll provide a link anyway if anyone here doesn't. This's probably the best example I can ever give.

Okay... I can't find the link that I want, but luckily I strangely copied and pasted this newsletter thing from the Wizards forums where I originally found it!


Subj: [PLANESCAPE] - a new Abyssal Lord
Date: 98-05-04 13:41:23 EDT
From: Roland Lamoureux
Sender: [email protected]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]

Here you Go folks a new, evil Tanar'ri (Demon) Lord

PELOR
Climate:Gray Waste
Frequency:Unique
Organization:Planar Ruler
Activity Cycle:Any
Diet:Carnivore"souls"
Intelligence:SupraGenius"21"
Treasure:U,Z,W,X
Alignement:Chaotic-Evil
Armor Class:-11
Movement:14
Hit Dice:47 HP:277
Thaco: 3
# of Att: 4
Dam:1d10+6 1d10+6
Special Att:Spells / summon Tanar'ri(demons)
Special Def:Immunities of Tanar'ri
Magic Resistance:70%
Size: 9' tall
Morale: Fearless(19)
XP Value: 48 000

Pelor a Tanar'ri Abyssal Lord whom in the past once served under the great Queen of the Abyss Lilith over a millenia ago before the Blood War had ever started in the Lower Planes. Pelor was the Bringer of Light for his Queen, until the day he rebeled against her and her rule. Pelor was the first Tanar'ri to escape the Abyssal realm of Lilith. Pelor had decided to flee to the Gray Waste where Pelor easily founded his own Planar realm and had begun to put into the effect his diabolical shemes of damnation, chaos, and destruction upon the multiverse.

However over the years the Abyssal lord Pelor has spent dwelling within the Gray Waste, has had a effect upon his nature. In fact the very Nature of the Abyssal Lord Pelor has changed and is still in a state of flux, as the Abyssal Lord Pelor strives to achieve his higher form of being. Pelor appears as a ageless male planar tainted human with a golden crown of sunstones upon his head. His eyes, teeth, and nails however are clearly demonic in appearence and nature so Pelor still has signs of his Tanar'ri nature.

Combat: Pelor is a serious combatant whom enjoys using physical strength and spells to humiliate first then destroy in the bloodiest of fashions. He is a ambi-dextrous Grand Master in the Long Swords. He has two inteligent artifact long Swords. The Left handed Sword is Uggrazz, capable of inflicting wounds that can not be closed except by a heal, only when they strike a Lawful Good mortal. In his Right Hand is the Loyal Sword SwaD'Wi. This Sword can emit a ray of painful light 10 times a day, for 27 points of Dammage save for half against Death Magic.

Plots and Goals: He has realised the power of belief from mortal so the Abyssal Lord Pelor enjoys creating Cults, and false Faiths in his name upon the prime Worlds he enjoys to visits. To do this he Travels to a desired prime World in the Guise of a kind Priest of Pelor. Using his Crown of Sunstones that acts as a amulet of non-dectection only upon a prime plane. In this Guise He uses his lay on hands 10 times a day to heal 27 points of Dammage. Also he can do minor creation, improved phantasmal force and major creation at will while in this role. All this he does so he can make his Priestly Guise and the Faith of Pelor more Believalbe to the clueless of the prime world he visits. His false faith he has decided is one where Pelor is a Greater God of Healing and protection.

Followers and ressources: Pelor can Gate 1-4 Unique Balors(50% chance) whom appear as Solars, with flaming wings but have a subltle hint of their Tanar'ri taint visible in some part of their body if one looks hard enough. Pelor can use Items allowable to fighters, priests, and mages. The Bringer of Light Pelor has many designs upon many primes and patiently waits for them to mature for the day he can unleash Hellfire and Damnation.

He has a long estasblished False faith upon Oerth, a couple small cults on Toril and Mystara, whom are growing at amusing rate. All of this is part of his scheme only he can see . He also has designs of starting his false faith upon the planes starting in Sigil but thus far has had only a very small success in this goal, thank in large part to a mortal proxy Scion of his he has sent to sigil to spread the Faith of Pelor!

Well there you go folks, what did you think? flames comments--------Roland "Proxy Scion Herald of the Abyssal "Demon" Lord Pelor!"

[Psyren]

...I guess? Anything could be. The better question is would that be interesting. If they were the same person, what would it imply? What would that change about either of them, or about the setting as a whole? Do their worshipers know (or care?) Do the other gods? If yes, why then are the two gods considered to be separate? If no, how do you think others would/should react?

Asmodeus' main job in Golarion, aside from furthering his own aspirations to bring the universe to heel, is keeping custody of the lock and key to Rovagug's prison. If he's Nyaralothep, what if anything would change about that?

[Gildedragon]

...I guess? Anything could be. The better question is would that be interesting. If they were the same person, what would it imply? What would that change about either of them, or about the setting as a whole? Do their worshipers know (or care?) Do the other gods? If yes, why then are the two gods considered to be separate? If no, how do you think others would/should react?

Asmodeus' main job in Golarion, aside from furthering his own aspirations to bring the universe to heel, is keeping custody of the lock and key to Rovagug's prison. If he's Nyaralothep, what if anything would change about that?

If anything having them be different people is more amusing. Nothing quite like two very powerful, very clever, very patient beings trying to outchess one another, getting all tangled up in each other's schemes and manipulations where every move forward moves the other in one of the tenteen cardinal directions

[Xuldarinar]

...I guess? Anything could be. The better question is would that be interesting. If they were the same person, what would it imply? What would that change about either of them, or about the setting as a whole? Do their worshipers know (or care?) Do the other gods? If yes, why then are the two gods considered to be separate? If no, how do you think others would/should react?

Asmodeus' main job in Golarion, aside from furthering his own aspirations to bring the universe to heel, is keeping custody of the lock and key to Rovagug's prison. If he's Nyaralothep, what if anything would change about that?


If Asmodeus were to be a face of Nyarlathotep;

I think most of the gods would be shocked at the knowledge. Both hold trickery as a domain, its possible even Asmodeus's lieutenants are unaware. As for why they are considered separate, most of Nyarlathotep's names and faces offer varying domains, but all known hold the same alignment. Its possible this isn't the case for all of them, one going to far as to being LE. Who knows though? Maybe other well known or obscure deities/demigods are also faces of his.

Nyarlathotep could be saving the key to Rovagug's prison until the stars are aligned, or maybe to serve as a deterrent. Or maybe his reasons are incomprehensible, or at least silly to our standards, who can say? It would be quite the weapon to have in one's court, in or out of the cage.

[Bartmanhomer]

I highly doubt that Asmodeus and Nyarlathotep be the same entity. I haven't read the Lovecraft books yet. So I have to dabble with a bit when I the chance. Also Nyarlathotep isn't a D&D character.

[Xuldarinar]

I highly doubt that Asmodeus and Nyarlathotep be the same entity. I haven't read the Lovecraft books yet. So I have to dabble with a bit when I the chance. Also Nyarlathotep isn't a D&D character.

....But both exist in the Pathfinder setting, and one arguably is the other in Lovecraft's works.

[Bartmanhomer]

....But both exist in the Pathfinder setting, and one arguably is the other in Lovecraft's works.
How is that possible? Am I missing something here?

[Xuldarinar]

How is that possible? Am I missing something here?

Which?


On the first one; They both simply are in the setting.
On the second one; Nyarlathotep has countless forms. One of which being basically the devil (Look up 'The Dreams in the Witch House'.)

[Bartmanhomer]

Which?


On the first one; They both simply are in the setting.
On the second one; Nyarlathotep has countless forms. One of which being basically the devil (Look up 'The Dreams in the Witch House'.)
Both actually.

[Xuldarinar]

Both actually.

Well, I hope my answer was enough.

[Bartmanhomer]

Well, I hope my answer was enough.
It was good enough. Thanks.

[Psyren]

Both hold trickery as a domain, its possible even Asmodeus's lieutenants are unaware.

But multiple gods hold Knowledge as a domain too. Pharasma in particular is just about impossible to fool, even if she'd prefer to do nothing with the information. This strikes me as an unstoppable force/immovable object problem.



Nyarlathotep could be saving the key to Rovagug's prison until the stars are aligned, or maybe to serve as a deterrent. Or maybe his reasons are incomprehensible, or at least silly to our standards, who can say? It would be quite the weapon to have in one's court, in or out of the cage.

If their motives are incomprehensible - which appears to be a hallmark of Lovecraft - then what point is there in speculating about them? If you asked him "hey, I think you're Asmodeus, what do you plan on doing with that key?" and the answer is "purple potato" then nothing valuable is gained.

[Xuldarinar]

But multiple gods hold Knowledge as a domain too. Pharasma in particular is just about impossible to fool, even if she'd prefer to do nothing with the information. This strikes me as an unstoppable force/immovable object problem.



If their motives are incomprehensible - which appears to be a hallmark of Lovecraft - then what point is there in speculating about them? If you asked him "hey, I think you're Asmodeus, what do you plan on doing with that key?" and the answer is "purple potato" then nothing valuable is gained.

Granted, on both points. To the latter one though; Unless I am mistaken, another hallmark of Lovecraft is our insignificance and the futility of our actions. Nothing valuable may be gained, as far as we are concerned, but at least we are keeping to theme. Though.. I think the follow up would be insanity, death, something worse, or a combination of the seven.

[Cirrylius]

If Asmodeus were to be a face of Nyarlathotep;
I think most of the gods would be shocked at the knowledge.
Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath- earth's gods are described as "childlike" compared to high-end Mythos entities. Lord only knows how they stack up against D&D deities, though.

As for motive- Nyarlat is unique in that he's both free and ambivalent about his "masters". It makes a fun thought, him setting up a nice, solid base of predictable, reliable, controllable minions just to have something of his own, his own little ship in a bottle, something that's not "flit here and carry word of our continuing slumber to another crap cult in Greenland":smallbiggrin:

[Xuldarinar]

Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath- earth's gods are described as "childlike" compared to high-end Mythos entities. Lord only knows how they stack up against D&D deities, though.

As for motive- Nyarlat is unique in that he's both free and ambivalent about his "masters". It makes a fun thought, him setting up a nice, solid base of predictable, reliable, controllable minions just to have something of his own, his own little ship in a bottle, something that's not "flit here and carry word of our continuing slumber to another crap cult in Greenland":smallbiggrin:

You know, not long ago I actually had an idea for a theory a character could have.. or the basis of a setting;

There is only one deity; Nyarlathotep. The planes are but a stage to him, and he plays the parts of every deity. What he does and why is anyone's guess, but ultimately perhaps it is simply for to his amusement.

[Segev]

We could ask Red Fel, but I'm not sure he knows them, personally. I mean, I never see him with either of the other two at the same time...

[Xuldarinar]

We could ask Red Fel, but I'm not sure he knows them, personally. I mean, I never see him with either of the other two at the same time...


Maybe Red Fel is Nyarlathotep then?

[Red Fel]

Maybe Red Fel is Nyarlathotep then?

Do I look like I play poker alone?

[Elricaltovilla]

Do I look like I play poker alone?

You're never alone if you have Dissociative Identity Disorder.

[khadgar567]

You're never alone if you have Dissociative Identity Disorder.

or you are long term gitp regular I thing our madness has medicinal powers

[Segev]

Do I look like I play poker alone?

Isn't bluffing a bit chaotic for your tastes? I didn't think you played poker at all.

But if you did, of course you'd play it with only yourself. After all, since when do you play games you haven't already guaranteed you'll win?

[Toilet Cobra]

Xuldinar you've been calling on great powers, inquiring into strange and terrible mysteries... I advise you to turn back now or else release the notes for the Far Realm Pathfinder campaign you're working on.

[Xuldarinar]

Xuldinar you've been calling on great powers, inquiring into strange and terrible mysteries... I advise you to turn back now or else release the notes for the Far Realm Pathfinder campaign you're working on.

While not exactly working on... You said Far Realm, and asked for it.


Unfinished brews, predominantly. Its all the notes I have actually written/typed somewhere.

Note 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411085-Abyssal-Layer-quot-quot)
Note 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477260-(Pathfinder)-Rupture)
Note 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479732-Monster-Reenvison-Qlippoth-Daelkyr)
Note 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423060-Grimoire-of-the-Darkened-Mind)

[Coidzor]

Isn't bluffing a bit chaotic for your tastes? I didn't think you played poker at all.

But if you did, of course you'd play it with only yourself. After all, since when do you play games you haven't already guaranteed you'll win?

On the other hand, that'd mean he was guaranteeing that he'd lose, too...

[Toilet Cobra]

While not exactly working on... You said Far Realm, and asked for it.


Unfinished brews, predominantly. Its all the notes I have actually written/typed somewhere.

Note 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411085-Abyssal-Layer-quot-quot)
Note 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477260-(Pathfinder)-Rupture)
Note 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479732-Monster-Reenvison-Qlippoth-Daelkyr)
Note 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423060-Grimoire-of-the-Darkened-Mind)


Now that's what I'm talkin' bout. Looks like some good reading ahead.

[Segev]

On the other hand, that'd mean he was guaranteeing that he'd lose, too...

The trick is to make sure that each "loss" is merely NOT getting something out of it (as opposed to being a setback), and each win IS advancing your overall goals. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit)

[Gildedragon]

The trick is to make sure that each "loss" is merely NOT getting something out of it (as opposed to being a setback), and each win IS advancing your overall goals. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit)

You mean each "loss " is merely furthering one's other schemes, and each win is furthering ALL of one's schemes? Not getting something out of a 'defeat' is a setback: one lost resources that were invested. If one is to 'lose' then one should still get something out of it, of at least as much value as what one invested.

Trusting luck with one's goals is the hallmark of a weak intellect and inferior skill.

[khadgar567]

The trick is to make sure that each "loss" is merely NOT getting something out of it (as opposed to being a setback), and each win IS advancing your overall goals. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit)

considering red fels role model he wins even he loses( cuz its david zantos infamous for xantos gambit)

[Segev]

You mean each "loss " is merely furthering one's other schemes, and each win is furthering ALL of one's schemes? Not getting something out of a 'defeat' is a setback: one lost resources that were invested. If one is to 'lose' then one should still get something out of it, of at least as much value as what one invested.

Trusting luck with one's goals is the hallmark of a weak intellect and inferior skill.

The particular variant on the Xanatos Gambit being discussed would actually be such that your invested resources will not get you EVERYTHING you want, but even the consolation prizes are worth the investment AND, in losing on one front, you've guaranteed the win on another.

In some cases, winning the "Plan A" victory is the lesser victory. You wanted the prize you'd get if plan A failed. But it's still a victory. Just not as big of one as the alternative. And in any case, thwarting one ploy means the heroes hand you the other.

[Red Fel]

The particular variant on the Xanatos Gambit being discussed would actually be such that your invested resources will not get you EVERYTHING you want, but even the consolation prizes are worth the investment AND, in losing on one front, you've guaranteed the win on another.

In some cases, winning the "Plan A" victory is the lesser victory. You wanted the prize you'd get if plan A failed. But it's still a victory. Just not as big of one as the alternative. And in any case, thwarting one ploy means the heroes hand you the other.

Or perhaps the goal of playing poker alone - assuming I even did such a thing - is simply to use that singular fact, which costs me nothing whether I win or lose, to derail any conversation to which I deem it relevant, by causing a tangent to debate whether I would win or lose in competition with myself, and what such things get me.

Purely hypothetically, of course.

[Endless Query]

Granted, when it comes to the previous question about the key to the big hungry mouth at the center of the planet's prison... Of course Nyar doesn't want that thing released. If we're being consistent with his overall motives (from the Mythos, and I guess just from other fictional pop cultural sources, as it were), one of the reasons he spreads cults as he does is to keep his masters sated with the chanting of mortals... Buuuut not so much as to overly draw their attention or wakefulness. The split between loyal to them and getting to do whatever the hell he wants. As such, getting everyone killed would be a massive pain because he'd have to find another planet to seed cults on to to keep the worship coming. Or, heck, maybe the reason he came to Galorian in the first place was the fact that it had a rogue planet eater running around/slated to show up in its future and he wanted to make sure it wasn't going to be wandering off and damaging any of his OTHER projects.